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The Forum > Article Comments > No one Muslim fits all > Comments

No one Muslim fits all : Comments

By Waleed Aly, published 2/9/2005

Waleed Aly argues John Howard's meeting with Muslim leaders ended up pleasing no one.

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Jose,
Id be happy to transmit directly on the subject of the nature of Christ, so expect an email. Thanks!

BOAZ_David,
I can respect your position as I grew up [and remain] in a church and attended Bible College that believed in the virgin birth meaning God fertilised the ovum within Mary. In a biblical sense He did, by His approval and Jesus being the chosen Christ, this is evidence by his mighty deeds.

However Zacharias the Priest determined the role for Mary that she was to be fertilised of the seed of David. [Read the first hand accounts from the family of Joseph recorded by James the elder step brother of Jesus and you will discover that Mary was artificially inseminated by collected sperm from young men from the lineage of David by an appointed messenger from the Temple with whom Mary was well aquainted.]

The seed of David means just that, it is the fertlising component of sperm from the lineage of David. Mary did not fertlise the ovum within her as she was also of the royal tribe of Judah. Zecharias John the Baptisers father was in close contact with the Essenes, and the Essenes used artificial insemination when desiring children so as to retain their religious purity.

Salome who was the midwife at the birth of Jesus verified that the hymen was intact which meant that Mary had not engaged in normal sexual intercourse with a man. This was respectful of Mary's own vow of chastity.

Quote, "Philo, you seem to have the view that Jesus was conceived 'naturally' as in a human father. I reject this on the basis of scripture. Mary was a virgin, clearly stated mate. See commentary on Luke 1:18 I think and that area."
Posted by Philo, Saturday, 8 October 2005 8:36:36 PM
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Hi Pericles, yes, I most certainly would like to comment on that incident. Hmm.. hey... chill on the date pedantry pls..

Now.. 'where does Boaz get this stuff from'... well FYI I got it from a news commentary that very day. It was pointed out specificially that memory of the seige of Vienna is very much alive and is indeed causing many Europeans to hesitate on accepting Turkey into the EU.

Cyprus is quite likely an issue for the same reason, or in fact reminds them OF that earlier incident.

Now as for the Jannisaries.. yes most curious, but does show how 'nominal' was their Christianity. I find the 'end' of the Janissary saga more interesting than the beginning, where they actually called the tune for a while, becoming increasingly aware of their own strategic importance to the Sultan and seeking to be remunerated accordingly.

They represented a typical sovereigns use of a distinct group apart from the core group, that sovereigns tend to keep, as military buffers against disloyalty among those more closely connected with potential rivals among the core group.

But I also find the use of the Janissaries a tragic thing. It saddens me greatly that those of Christian background would feel a greater sense of loyalty to a Muslim soveriegn than their own identity. They were the Sultans finest soldiers also, a further tragedy that those so strong, had in the first place been overwhelmed by numbers rather than skill and strength...if my reading of the times and events is correct.

Ironic also that now, that same nation of Turkey must plead for admission into the 'Christian Club' so to speak. A Buddhist might say "karma", I'm more on the 'reaping what you sow' line.

Hows your pilgrimage of life going... anywhere near Damascus yet?
I'll pray on.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 8 October 2005 9:31:31 PM
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>>FYI I got it from a news commentary that very day.<<

Care to mention the source?

>>Cyprus is quite likely an issue for the same reason, or in fact reminds them OF that earlier incident.<<

Errr, no. Cyprus is an issue today because there is still a dispute between Greece and Turkey as to who owns the place. There is no evidence of any connection between this game - in which the British played a few hands over the centuries - and the siege of Vienna. None.

>>Ironic also that now, that same nation of Turkey must plead for admission into the 'Christian Club' so to speak. <<

The EU is of interest to Turkey for purely economic reasons. I happen to think they are making a mistake, as I think the EU project is about to experience some fairly tough years, but rest assured, their joining will not be as a result of their "pleading", but from a hard nosed "how does Europe benefit" assessment.

I am aware that you delight in making the tiniest issue into a massive battle between your good and the rest of the world's evil. But it will continue to be my duty to stop you and explain things a little to you when the bow you draw becomes too long.

Not impressed with your review of the "Christians in the Janissary episode". They were just bad Christians, right? Nothing to do with real Christians, of course.

Love to hear your version of the Massacre at Al-Aqsa Mosque during the First Crusade, though. Pretty nasty stuff, wouldn't you say?
Posted by Pericles, Sunday, 9 October 2005 12:19:32 AM
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Pericles,
the source was ABC News Radio, reporting as they do on such topics. The reason it grabbed my attention was that it surprised me to hear it.
As you say, I'm always trying to see the grand scheme of things, and a little bit of validation is always welcome. I don't think the bow was any longer than it was reported.

Yes, your cynicism about 'good Christians' and 'bad Christians' being used to explain all acceptable/unacceptable behavior is noted.

The fundamental issue here is just that.. the fundamentals. It is quite proper to compare the behavior of any person naming Christ as Savior, with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. So, it is obviously correct to assess historical accounts of actions in this light. The Al Aksa massacre included.

You see, a person is not a Christian because they were baptized, christened, sprayed with holy water, taken to church by parents, attended sunday school. A Christian is a 'Christs-one'.

As those who had crucified Jesus asked Peter "What shall we do now ?"
Acts 2
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

I perceive that you take a very cultural view of Christian-ness.

Back to the Jannisaries. I would need to refresh my reading, but to explain their willingness to attack fellow Christians, one might need to look at how their people were treated by the Byzantines or other powers, one might gain insight to their motives.

I met a young coptic Christian of Egyptian background on Saturday, and due to the ill treatment by Muslims, he said if he had the chance he would blow up every Mosque in Egypt, as his uncle had been slain in his own house by jealous Muslims. This attitude also has to be compared with Scripture.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 9 October 2005 2:15:52 PM
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Please understand my continuing cynicism Boaz. You state that "...the source was ABC News Radio, reporting as they do on such topics. The reason it grabbed my attention was that it surprised me to hear it."

That's it? A fleeting sound-bite - that was sufficiently off-centre that you mentally queried it yourself - was enough for you to write categorically "but the point in history which I've made repeated mention of in these forums, (no one else seems to think it matters) which was the Seige of Vienna, in 1680ish... is the VERY thing which is causing opposition to Turkey's membership in the EU TODAY !"

Unconvincing, I'm afraid.

Twentieth and twentyfirst century Turkey is a radically different country to that which existed in "1680ish". The most disruptive change - from old-think Ottoman Empire to new-think Republic of Turkey - occurred when Ataturk established the republic of Turkey, in stark and deliberate contrast to its Ottoman Empire history, in 1923.

People can change, countries can change. I say again, the Siege of Vienna in "1680ish" has about as much bearing on the possible accession of Turkey to the EU as Ned Kelly has on the outcome of Australia's next election.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 10 October 2005 8:23:48 AM
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Pericles,
while it might be my own view about history and its impact on current thinking in EU member nations, which seems anecdotally validated by such 'sound bites' as you describe them. I don't expect all and sundry to be 'convinced' by such arguments by me.

Convinced of....what ? All I'm claiming is that such events effect peoples outlook. To what degree is the issue which would need to be examined further.

But I suggest, that we can only undersand the present in the light of the past, and that includes the mental outlook of people.

While Turkey may be a different nation now compared to then, the memory in the Euro side may not have faded quite as much as Turkey has changed, and the 'sound bite' you described would suggest as much.

Does it occur to you as to why such a sound bite may have come about in the first place ? It cannot have been just 'dreamt up' by some reporter without any connection to real people. But of course, it might reflect just the one view of the single person interviewed, but it didn't come across that way.

But in terms of the topic, I would classify Turkey as on the moderate end of the Islamic spectrum, and it would be quite wrong to say it is to be tarred with the same brush as Pakistan, Bangladesh or Saudi Arabia.

But Islam, as a faith, should be assessed in the light of its own teachings, no matter how the current crop of Muslims may variously be behaving.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 10 October 2005 11:27:44 AM
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