Kactuz, maybe I've been misread or am misreading something here - but the distinct impression I received from a number of posts is that to believe in Islam and their prophet Mohammad is to justify his actions and see them in the glowing light that is his divine intervention. Therefore, without questioning Mohammad or his actions, implicity you're agreeing with their use. I think David Boaz has been a strong advocate of this position amongst others. That's where the comment has come from. Secondly, I wasn't aiming to argue that point. If you say they're hard to talk to about such things, that they dismiss such accusation and the like - and that in turn gives the impression of dishonest conduct, so be it. My experience with Muslims is vastly different, that's all. What I really wanted to point out was that Philo was justifying torture at GITMO in his post and that seemed at odds with a lot of what was said, seeing as we abhor the fact that Mohammad committed those very acts.

Skid Marx - just simply, what was Mamdouh Habib charged with? Nothing. Imprisoned for three year for...what again, nothing. Now I don't know what your post is about because I stopped reading it after the first line. Clearly you're misplaced here. Everyone else seems capable of engaging without stooping to your immature levels. Who are you when someone (rarely I imagine) cares?

To Bosk and Nick

we are getting closer to some truth here, but its a step by step process.

F.H. avert your eyes mate :) dont look !

Ok..Bosk first. Please try to grasp this, Lets say we talk about 3 faiths. Christianity, Buddhism and Islam.

How do we differentiate between the 3 ? Simple. In terms of the foundations, and teaching of each, which in turn are based on the person(s) who delivered these messages. This is important, from a credibility viewpoint.

To keep this simple, I'll use just ONE example, to do with Enemies and those against you.

BUDDHISM "follow the noble 8fold way, the 4fold path. 'right thinking' etc etc.. to achieve enlightenment.

CHRISTIANITY: "Love those who persecute you, if you love only those who are kind to you, what gain do you have?, do not even the sinners love those like themselves ?" (Jesus)

ISLAM 'fight in the way of Allah, strike terror into the hearts of the infidels' ( a couple of joined quotes)

Now Bosk, are u seeing any difference ? I sure hope so, cos if not I'm booking you into prep-school again :)

So, clearly, a person claiming to be a Christian who goes and 'fights' is not being true to Christ, but a Muslim who fights IS being true to Mohammed/Quran.

So, this is why we can say a 'Christian' who goes on a land grabbing crusade is 'NOT' reflecting Christ, and a Muslim who does the same IS reflecting Mohamed.

Now, of great importance. Why is condemning the religion not the same as comdemning the followers ? Your question. Simple, we have enough common sense to know that 'most' Muslims are like Fellow Human, though probably less knowledgable, and who just want to get on with life.

The problem somes at the other end, the politicized, the radicalized, the motivated. They are the threat, and it is the Quran and Hadith which is their fuel.

Skid Matrix,

What the heck is Judea Christianity? The term is offending to most Jewish people I know as they neither believe in Jesus nor Christianity being a religion! Sorry I am not good with religious cocktails!

Anyway, back to Theo Van Gogh, he can write what he likes; I described the reaction of the man who killed him as act of tribalism. People act at their own risk and hence the example I gave you re Texas. Knock yourself out criticising Muslims and Islam (Salman Rushdie and Irshad Manji do, the only one not making money out of it is poor Boaz David with more than a 1000 posts of criticism. No offence intended BD).

MS Burns,

First, the Quran teaches Muslims to be accepting to other humans and creatures on the earth and it is God who judges all of us by our intent at the day of resurrection. Christians and Jews are named “people of the book” and have closer ties with Muslims as they have been throughout history.

Second, the inhumane treatment is also in North American farms treating Mexican and Latin farmers (they actually call them ‘wet-backs’ and not workers).

Both these examples are in breach of their religious teachings. Mohamed (pbuh) asked to “give the worker his fair pay before his sweat dries”. Not sure what Jesus said on this one but BD can help.

Philo/BD,

One error in your comment if I may: Muslims believe in the Quran and asked to follow its peaceful teachings. You cannot compare that to Christians who follow the teachings of Christ (the bible is predominantly Christ biography).

All the Quran teachings are peaceful, graceful and tolerant towards other people and creatures. Even the reference to ‘fight those who fight you and shall not transgress” have clear self defence rules (ie fighting an invading army example). Those who kill others “shall be judged as if they killed whole mankind” that’s where the Quran stands.

Mohamed (pbuh) biography has different sources and we usually discredit what conflicts with the Quran (which I believe is the opposite in your case).

Nick,

I can't even get Muslims to acknowledge Mohammud's actions in their own writings (including the Koran), much less question them, and - heaven forbid - actually condemn them. He is 'wonderful' and a great 'example,' remember? That is the soul of my issue with Islamic practive and theory. It is not that they don't know these things, they refuse to contemplate the consequences of what they mean.

FH

"All the Quran teachings are peaceful, graceful and tolerant towards other people"

Come on, FH, you are not talking to bedposts here. Most of us have been around and we have read the Quran (I use http://quranbrowser.com). That "all" word is clearly PR for the PC folks. As you know, the Koran is a "pick and choose" thing - if you want verses to justify hate and oppression, they are there, if you want love and kindness, you have that too. It isn't exactly well written, as far as being consistent and clear.

Also, nobody is more guilty of misquoting and reading the Koran out of context than Muslims themselves. They read into it what they want to hear, and ignore the context and even the basic meaning of simple words (its kind of like that prophet thing - you know what I'm talking about).

Could you explain how that "slay them WHEREEVER ye find them" (2:190) verse fits in with your "self-defense" theory. Maybe it is preemptive self-defense!

And that "As if they killed the whole of mankind" verse (5:032) is easily the #1 misquoted verse of all time, anywhere, anybook. Only once have I seen a Muslim quote it accurately (out of about 1000 times).

Does anybody know what the first few words of that verse are? It is a real bummer, for Muslims anyway. No wonder they always omit the first line.

Kactuz....

JESUS LESSONS IN SELF DEFENCE- lesson No 1:

Matthew. 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of
righteousness, theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute and
falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven,
for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were
before you.
13 “You are the salt of the earth.

Lesson No2:
Matthew. 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies [Some late manuscripts
enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who
hate you] and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his
sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the
righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing
more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Lesson 3:
Mathew. 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves.
Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
17 “Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to
the local councils and flog you in their synagogues.
18 On my account you will be brought before governors and
kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.
19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or
how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say,
...
21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child;
children will rebel against their parents and have them put to
death.
22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm
to the end will be saved.

[cont]

AMEN ! Philo.. way2go mate...

F.H. ..I told you not to see what I wrote.. now you have to be punished :))

I should not be comparing Mohamed with Christ, there is no comparison.
Most of what I say is by way of 'information', but it does not leave the reader with anywhere to go, just to 'run from'.

Jesus did (humanly speaking) what not even a truckload of Zarkawi's could do and he did it without any bomb, without any sword, without any army. He transformed an empire. Can anyone point to an Empire which was renewed from the inside out in such a way ?

In saying this, we need to look further than just the historical curiosity of the events, but to the cause itself. Just 'what' is it, about being (truly) 'Christian' that overcomes such hatred, -hatred which refused to believe anything good about the faith, and attempted to destroy it, and its adherants by even feeding them to wild beasts as a public spectacle, executions, torture... all without retribution, except that of the most effective kind, "Love those who persecute you" as Philo so ably pointed out.

Paul: 1Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 (IICor4)

And so we do this, albeit in our stumbling ways,

5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"[a]made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

May that light, shine in each heart here.