Usual Suspect,

Sorry mate, was not having a dig. Just counting words. What I meant is that John Howard will accept the efforts of the Muslim community in Australia and will even put forward their arguments and grievances to the Australian Community on their behalf. He's the middle man between Muslims and mainstream Australia because Muslims have little in the way of representation that is coherent and eloquent. But I think everyone prefers it when people fight their own battles and Muslims going to Howard is not the way i would push this. I think it would be better for Muslims to get out in the community themselves and cut out the middle man and confront the elements of our society that are sceptical of their efforts.

Hope that clears things

Talks with Muslims are useless, unless both sides are honest. This is not the case. The PM is being PC and the Muslims are not being sincere. Yes, they may be 'moderates' and they might even believe their own words, but it is all empty noises.

What we have is a fundamental 'disconnect' between Muslims and non-Muslims - or two different worlds. Consider this, for 2 months I have been trying to find a Muslim who will condemn Mohammed for acts of torture described in Islamic histories. I have tried Islamic Q&A sites, blogs, forums and even sent emails to Imams. I have individually challenged Waleed Aly, Irfan Yusuf , Bashir Goth, Xena, Unconquered, Rancitas, Rossco, Shoshana, Trinity and Fellow Human here at OLO and none of them will condemn torture if done by Islam's prophet. This is a project I started to see if I could find common ground on basic principles -- and there should be nothing easier than this…. If a certain group cannot condemn torture except when others do it, then there is no common ground and dialogue is useless (I have saved the posts, replies and entire threads and I'll put them on the Internet). The project is over. It is impossible.

That shows you how far apart we are. I would never sit at a table to negotiate with people that think some torture is justifiable. Islam has a deep dark problem and it is up to the Muslims themselves to fix it. They, however, are in even deeper denial and cannot even consider the problem, much less resolve it.

Things will get much worse, and there is nothing we can do about it -- except tell the truth. Don't count on the politicians to do it, they have no spines. Our dear leaders can meet with Muslims and they can say sweet things to each other until the cows come home, and nothing will change. The differences are too great. Bad times are coming and there will be major Muslim rioting in Western countries with 5 years (probably Sweden, Holland or England).

Kactu

Kactuz, are we talking about the same kind of torture that is being dished out at Guantanamo Bay? I'd imagine some muslims find it hard to sit at a table with a government willing to imprison hundreds of people for years without trial.

We could sit here and discuss every issue you and others may have with Islam and it will be a tit-for-tat argument because everything you complain about regarding muslims is reflected in your own society. And that reflection has nothing to do with Islam's influence either.

I like the word 'disconnected'. Here, I agree in part, that Australia has several disconnected communities struggling to fit in. Islam the obvious, but by no means alone. Now, with all due respect to John Howard, Muslims can't expect he will fly their flag on this issue, because Howard is like any other politician in that he will apply a spin that gives him the best possible light in the view of the population. But with better exchanges of information, better understanding, an actual, educated, experience-based approach to deal with issues (not just nitpick Islamic quotes here and there in the hopes of defaming an unproven prophet) Australians will generate a better understanding of what Islam is (which is thoroughly different to the opinions of people like Boaz, 963 etc) lessening the risk of Islamic vilification and threats of terrorism. Dialogue, communal interaction, a barbie and a beer: does anyone here think that muslims out there don't indulge in this iconic Australian act? That they don't get excited about the Melbourn Cup, the AFL Grand Final, the fact that we're about to lose the ashes? Point is, stop drawing your arguments on age old texts that should have been burned with women's bras forty years ago and go out there, Muslim and non-muslim alike, and learn what it is to be in the other shoe.

Phew! This sure is fun!

Nick I,
Obviously you are not talking to Muslims that follow their religion - with this question. Quote, "Dialogue, communal interaction, a barbie and a beer: does anyone here think that muslims out there don't indulge in this iconic Australian act?"

Try offering your devout Muslim friend a beer and a piece of steak you have brought from your local butcher. How often have you done this?

You naively make a similarity of interrigation of armed enemies of freedom kept in Guantanamo Bay with centuries of Muslim torture on innocent people and of Aid workers etc. You have got to be joking! You are totally offensive to intelligent and justice! Quote, "Kactuz, are we talking about the same kind of torture that is being dished out at Guantanamo Bay? I'd imagine some muslims find it hard to sit at a table with a government willing to imprison hundreds of people for years without trial."

Obviously you are a threat to Western society, and the protection of the innocent

I'm not a threat to anyone. Flattered though.

My problem with the likes of you is that those Muslims who do eat a steak and have a beer are completely and utterly counted out regarding this issue. You behave as if they don't matter, they're not on the statistical radar sheet, they deserve no recognition whatsoever. Worse still, you believe they are minority! That's what's offensive to the intellectual.

Secondly, how many Australians follow Christianity to the letter? Why is it okay for them to stray but Muslims dare not? Oh, of course, in your succint, black and white world, Muslim's don't moderate, don't enjoy life, they exist only to kill non-muslims.

And lastly Philo, and this is the bit that I truly find hilarious, you JUSTIFY the use of torture to interrogate those at Guantanemo Bay, just as some Muslims justify Mohammed's apparent use of such tactics. I still haven't heard what Mamdouh Habib was charged with - that's right they released him because they couldn't charge him with anything - after three years of imprisonment. Sorry mate, but that is a terrible form of hypocrisy you've just demonstrated.

Cheers!

Dear Nick

I'm not too thrilled with your characterization of my comments on Islam as being inaccurate. All that I've said is well sourced.

The point I've been making all along, is that it does not matter a scrap how people have 're-spun' a religion to give it a more friendly face, it rests on the same foundation, and that foundation is mohamed.

The other point I've progressed, is the contrast between Christ and Mohamed. In the case of the latter, there is a continuous line of violent aggression (which is usually couched in 'defensive' terminology for theological reasons) where we see repeated references to 'raids' in both the Quran and the Hadith.

The form of torture engaged in by Mohamed was of a particularly gruesome kind of which Ogrish.com would salivate at the thought of displaying. (cutting off hands and feet, gouging out/hot metal rods into the eyes. then letting the victims die a slow miserable death)
Numerous other references exist, which even without any additional adjectives stand out as horrifying in the extreme.(Hadith refs)
To actually recommend/command torture to obtain information is what one might expect from a General, but not a prophet of "Allah the Merciful"

Like I also said. If someone painted a 'friendly/progressive' face on National Socialism, but kept "MeinKampf" as its foundation document, it would not change the abhorrent nature of the ideology.

So Nick, if you wish to take issue with my comments, ur most welcome, but please, stick to the facts and demonstrate the problems with them, rather than including me with others as u did.
Keep up the posts