Mac Adam,

I didn't think that you were a tar road!

I gave a reference, The Qur'an, the contentious verses have been on this forum many times and to repeat them would be tedious.

My copy of the Qur'an was by courtesy of the Saudi Government so, one assumes, it is an approved version.
It is covered in green leather with gold embossed writing, has English and Arabic text and is designed to be read from right to left [or from a Western perspective, back to front'].

Quran and Violence 1 of 2

This message addresses Is Mise (post of the 1st). Intention is to explain Quran’s position to an open mind.

It is not an attempt to convince Is Mise, knowing that subjectivity/bias has a tremendous capacity to force one see what he/she wants to see in a text.

He is, however, requested to quote from Quran to support his assertion.

Foreword for my opening statement is from Karen Armstrong’s article entitled “The True, Peaceful Face of Islam” in The Time Magazine (Sept, 2001) where she begins with “Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion”:

• “a major part of his (Muhammad’s) mission was devoted precisely to bringing an end to the kind of mass slaughter we witnessed in New York City and Washington. Pre-Islamic Arabia was caught up in a vicious cycle of warfare, in which tribe fought tribe in a pattern of vendetta and countervendetta……….”

• “The Prophet had to fight a deadly war in order to survive, but as soon as he felt his people were probably safe, he devoted his attention to building up a peaceful coalition of tribes and achieved victory by an ingenious and inspiring campaign of nonviolence. When he died in 632, he had almost single-handedly brought peace to war-torn Arabia……..”

• “Because the Koran was revealed in the context of an all-out war, several passages deal with the conduct of armed struggle.”

• “The very word Islam, which means "surrender," is related to the Arabic salam, or peace”

Now my OPENING STATEMENT:

Any passage from Quran that you can quote on “violence” WILL have one or all three of the following conditions:

1. The option of going to war is authorised in self-defence only;

2. The war must be restricted to the level of correcting persecution/ injustice inflicted on you – No transgression - No excessive force – No injustice of any kind; and

3. The armed struggle must have an overarching objective of restoring peace - and hostilities must cease if the other side offers peace.

Continued ..

Quran and Violence 2 of 2

You will agree that no code of justice conceived or discovered by humanity so far can question any of the above three principles listed in my Opening Statement.

Now, please quote Quran on so-called violence as you see in the translation of Quran you have.

The most-often referred verse of Quran (4:89) "slay [enemies] wherever you find them!" is also followed by the repeated reminder (4:90) "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them"

The available space in this post permits me to share research of Karen Armstrong (above referred article) that may interest other readers:

• “In the Koran, therefore, the ONLY PERMISSIBLE WAR IS ONE OF SELF-DEFENSE”;

• “Muslims may not begin hostilities (2: 190)”;

• “Warfare is always evil, but sometimes you have to fight in order to avoid the kind of persecution that Mecca inflicted on the Muslims (2: 191; 2: 217) or to preserve decent values (4: 75; 22: 40)”;

• “Hostilities must be brought to an end as quickly as possible and must cease the minute the enemy sues for peace (2: 192-3)”; and

• “….but like the Gospels, the Koran suggests that it is meritorious to forgo revenge in a spirit of charity (5: 45)”.

I see your correspondence with McAdam, he requested you to quote from Quran.

Your answer: <<The Qur'an, the contentious verses have been on this forum many times and to repeat them would be tedious>>.

Repeating them would be tedious?

Quote of verse number takes seconds- not even a full minute. Look how many have I quoted in this post.

Are you avoiding a reference?

Please let us know.

NC/McAdam,

So you are suggesting that Islamic State is acting totally against the teachings of Muhammad:

"• “In the Koran, therefore, the ONLY PERMISSIBLE WAR IS ONE OF SELF-DEFENSE”;

• “Muslims may not begin hostilities (2: 190)”;"

and, for their aggression, raping, murdering and child-beheading, IS terrorists will burn in hell forever ? That any person fighting for, or supporting, IS in any way, will go straight to Hell, to burn and burn and burn forever, not able to 'die' but always being in agony for their crimes against the teachings of Muhammad ?

Sounds a bit rough, but okay.

For bringing the name of Muhammad into disrepute, they will never escape the agonies of hell ? They will burn forever ?

I'm just trying to clarify where you see the position of terrorists in relation to the teachings of the Koran: they are acting totally against those teachings ? They will never see any of those 72 virgins ? Neither will their families ?

So the next idiot who tries to kill any random non-believer, who gets himself killed, will go straight to Hell, forever ?

Okay. Thanks NC/McAdam. I'm glad that's sorted out.

Joe

Gawd a'mighty...

Give it a rest, Joe. The only black clouds I want to see are the ones coming in from the West bearing some lovely, cooling rain.

Take your hot, dust-laden clouds of misery somewhere else.

OK, NC,

"Quran (18:65-81) - This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story (which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source) tells of Moses encountering a man with "special knowledge" who does things which don't seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would "grieve" his parents by "disobedience and ingratitude." He was killed so that Allah could provide them a 'better' son. (Note: This is one reason why honor killing is sanctioned by Sharia. Reliance of the Traveler (Umdat al-Saliq) says that punishment for murder is not applicable when a parent or grandparent kills their offspring (o.1.1-2)."
copied from:http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

No defensive only war there, just a bit of unjustified (in non Muslim eyes) of common murder.
'Paste' is very convenient andnon time consuming.
Kindly explain the justification of honor killings.