Jardine,"About Atrocities Committed In The Name of Islam"

The questions you raise are valid and the approach to these questions that you suggest; by "cutting out personal abuse", is rational.

Firstly, please recognize these societies differ from one an other and often various sections within a society are not on the same page. Secondly, these societies are masked from first hand view of the westerners, who are forced to see them through other's eyes, who may or may not be transparent.

Third problem is the restriction of words we can use, to cover these huge topics.

You will have to expand your own study to find the answers to your questions, please start with googling "The True, Peaceful Face Of Islam, by Karen Armstrong (former nun)", on Time web site. And www.usc.edu/.../The_Message_of_The_Quran__by_Muhammad_Asad.pdf. Muhammad Asad was formerly a Jew.

Just imagine, how off the mark one would be, who took the atrocities of Inquisition as the sole representative of Christianity? Zealots thrive in the environment of ignorance such as that prevailed in Europe at the time of Inquisition or such that prevails throughout the present Muslim societies. Some hard line Mullahs are deeply imbedded in the past. They follow the fossilized thinking of the Middle Ages.
You must be aware of a concept called "Ijtehad" roughly meaning renewal with independent reasoning, is inherent in Islam and was very vibrant but is at standstill since middle ages. Islam has to revive it to realize it's full potential of guiding the modern humanity.
Good news is that majority of middle class is for the way forward through Ijtehad. The hard liners with fossilized thinking who enjoy following in the relatively backward segment of the society are gradually loosing ground to reason. The Imam of the main Masjid of Islamabad is one such hard liner and government has ordered his arrest under pressure from the civil society.

I realize, I have not been able to do full justice to your good question, but if I have convinced you to carry on with your quest to find the truth, you will find what you seek.

Me: "Join me in condemning any religious ideology that threatens secular democracy."
McAdam: "I do not agree with you..."

What gives your religion the right to reign supreme over all of us? You and your co-ideologists are my enemy and I'll oppose you anywhere you are in the world, at home and internationally.

"Just imagine, how off the mark one would be, who took the atrocities of Inquisition as the sole representative of Christianity?"

Diversion. I do not judge what was done under Islam centuries ago, but what is done today. Why not use your energy and words to convince your fundamentalist element that your holy books do not espouse religious supremacy by violent means? Carry on preaching Islam's good message, by all means trying to achieve supremacy that way, but don't sit quietly while crimes are done by your co-religionists guided by its bad messages. Lack of fight against them is support for what they are achieving towards Islam's supremacist goal.

You are not for turning. Your base denial of violent exhortations in your holy books, and deification of your prophet shared with NC, is a blind-fold to reason. That's what religion is.

NC and especially McAdam, I admire your grace and calm persistence in the face of such wilfully ignorant bigotry.

Others, what a bunch of craven cowards you all are, jumping at shadows, scared of yourselves.

I am enormously grateful that you are not remotely representative of my country.

Hi Craig,

Most of us on this thread are trying to get at the truth, in the light of innumerable terrorist attacks, beheadings, murders. etc. supposedly in the name of Allah, i.e. carried out by self-proclaimed Islamists, or forgive the term, it's so not nice, Islamo-fascists. Either way, extreme Right-wingers.

For example, is the Islamic State acting entirely in accordance with the teachings of the Koran ? Yes ? No ?

If no, then should Islamo-fascism be unreservedly condemned ?

If yes, does that mean that the Koran sanctions the beheading of children, the frappe and enslavement (and/or murder) of women and girls, the execution of captured prisoners, the extermination of entire tribes, the crucifixion of non-Muslims, the bombing of market-places and the wholesale and indiscriminate execution of schoolchildren ?

Yes ? No ?

That's all I asking about, others may have other issues for McAdam/NC.

So please don't throw the label of 'bigot' around too freely. What is a bigot ? Someone who won't change his (or her) mind no matter what evidence you produce. Where does it leave you, or McAdam/NC ?

Joe

THE CONTEXT AND THE PERIPHERAL ISSUE 1 OF 2

The criticism is directed to:

1. Muhammad;
2. Quran; and
3. The followers

I have tried to restrict myself to No:1; have touched on No:2 because of few brazen misquotes and left NO:3 out of discussion for reasons. I can’t defend Muslim societies as- a- whole, just as kactuz can’t defend their counterparts in the west.

The fact is that the actions of the followers don’t alter the sublime life of Muhammad and just content of Quran.

But this style of discussion will be a big ask from kactuz who uses crime of a deranged criminal to vilify Muhammad and Quran. Not because there is a link, it is just because he wants to see a link.

He did not pick the message I delivered through example of the Roman Twelve Tables which authorised father to take life of his son- did not touch it either. Imagine what Kactuz would do to present-day Muslims if this was a written law of their society at any point in time.

Kactuz is oblivious to a miracle (in secular term) of Muhammad when he purged society clean of alcohol in his time – again in a gradual manner. No wonder, he could not grasp the gradual uplifting of society from its vile practices that Muhammad’s teaching brought about.

He comes back with the example of appalling Saudis (of all Muslim world) who took too long to abolish slavery. This is terrible failure of Saudi dictators, beyond any doubt.

But he conveniently forgets the torch-bearer of the western values, the US, which had laws forcing blacks to leave the bus seat when a white passenger arrives. One of many sufferers Rosa Park died few year ago (2005).

That torch-bearer, US, where struggle of blacks for the same civic rights as guaranteed to whites have been showcased to the whole world in such graphic details that kactuz will find volumes of literature if he takes time from Islam bashing.
Continued ..

Continued ..

THE CONTEXT AND THE PERIPHERAL ISSUE 2 OF 2

Would Kactuz extend these failures of US government to George Washington, Jesus and western civilisation etc. He must if he extends failures of Saudi dictators to so far in the past. Will it be the right approach if he does? NO.

Details on No: 3 are completely unrelated to Nos 1 &2. The point is that injustices have marred all societies, historically, the western societies included.

Kactuz brings up slavery for a reason, I suspect. The medieval literature and present internet trash is filled with insane views that the crime of slavery is exclusive to Muslims.

Nobody can defend the role of some Muslim societies in it. What I hinted earlier is that it has been a practice since ancient times. It was common in Roman world since ages, also the10th century Vikings would sell men and women in open markets along Volga River and Caspian Sea.

But nothing – repeat NOTHING in human history compares with the Atlanta slave trade (1441-1840) in volume, exploitation and brutality- exclusively operated by the western societies.
Historic records are too many and too vivid to be ignored along with the (18th and 19th Century) western literature condemning the blacks to an inherent inferior position for a moral justification for their enslavement.

A literature that deprives blacks of humanity (for instance) simply can NOT exist in a Muslim society – thanks to Muhammad’s teachings.

Kactuz must reflect on a conclusive historic evidence: How did the huge number of black Africans end up in Americas – On work visas? business visas?

Nowhere in the world you find that large concentration of slaves.

The above is meant to show the fact that all societies have their shortcomings.
West’s recent achievements in legal systems for social justice (in its own societies) is largely commendable. JUSTICE TO THE HUMANITY OF THE OTHER SOCIETIES IS ANOTHER SUBJECT.

Now this is where discussion on No:3 will lead us. I do not prefer this as a focus, unless, of course, I am forced to.