'I won't bother with The Lebanon.'

No of course not but not because you heroic IDF got done by a bunch of disorganised terrorists and totally lost the propaganda war?

Hey have you noticed now how the IDF claim all it's missing soldiers are dead not 'kidnapped'? Why is that? Is it because they don't want to face the fact of their impotence?

Dear Friends, we are not properly addressing the basic point. Our discussion which is already becoming bitter, will remain inconclusive unless we agree on a common set of rules. Some of us are considering Palestinians as fellow human beings with equal rights and others think otherwise. The discussion is going on like a football World Cup with one team insisting on playing with their feet as well as hands and they won't listen to the referee, for they have their own rules.

Now the basic question, which has been raised in the discussion,but yet not answered, needs resolution , before the discussion can go on meaningfully is, do the same set of rules apply to all human beings? If yes, Palestinians should have the same standard of living and same rights and their differences with Israelis be resolved through arbitration, as no one can be a party and judge at the same time.

If on the other hand Palestinians are sub humans; "grass" as pointed out by Junaid's article, the matter is different. The actions of Israel show that they do not consider them fellow human beings for no one will char the children of fellow human beings with banned phosphorous bombs, if valued like his own. Then, the situation will appear to be, as already pointed out, that "the sole purpose of non-Jews is to serve Jews", (Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the head of Shas’s Council of Torah Sages and a senior Sephardi adjudicator). The world could still function, if the rest of humanity agrees with this obvious absurdity. If they don't and our Jewish friends act as if they do, we have a recipe for perpetual chaos.

Now please, let the supporters of Israel answer this question; are all human beings, Jews and non Jews equal and do the same set of rules apply to all?. If they answer yes, we could discuss and if they say no, then what is the point of discussion?

I'm not sure why I bother.

Dear jayb,

You wrote;

“Steelie: Does Palestine have the right to exist?”

Why did you write two whole posts answering a question I did not even put to you. Once again you are snarling and snapping at shadows. Please make some effort to address what I had put to you or this will be a very short exchange.

A reminder of my questions;

“Do you really think that if they were given access to weaponry on a par with Israel on the proviso that they purely target on the same criteria as the IDF that they wouldn't jump at the chance?”

“What if they declared a 100 km zone around Gaza that was in the range of their rockets and said all civilians within that area were given 24 hours to evacuate to the north of Israel for their own protection? Would that satisfy you?”

Now to directly reply to what you have put to me.

1. According to my ex-IDF source the reason those apartment blocks would have been demolished is purely for line of sight. She pointed out the tanks in the foreground and the fact that they would have been unsighted if mortar round had come from any distance behind the buildings. So the lives of probably scores of Palestinians, the belongings and memories of hundreds of families were sacrificed to get a better view.
2. The ambulances were not moving munitions they were attending civilians slaughtered in a market place.
3. There were no mortars fired from the school gate. The report said the target was three resistance fighters riding past on a motorbike. This was not a laser guided bomb or precision weaponry of any description but artillery shells right next to a UN run relief center housing thousands of displaced civilians.

You have basically sat there and made all this up. It was all a crock but the question is why? Because it sounded good? Because it fit your narrative? Because in trying to defend the indefensible the temptation to resort to falsehoods becomes too strong?

Truly pitiful.

Dear McAdam

I was not aware that Hitler accused the Jews of not building Ipods or microchips. I was not aware that Hitler claimed that the Jewish faith was a "failed religion." Your claim that Hitler may have accused the Jews of wanting to destroy Germany may have been true. The difference is, that the leaders of the Jews in Europe did not go around proclaiming their desire to destroy Germany, as the political and religious leaders of the Muslims plainly state today.

My premise that Islam is a failed religion, is because I have studied it. And I have noted one particular aspect. The more Muslim it is, the more dysfunctional it is. Islam may be "fast growing", because of it's very high and unsustainable birth rates. But that hardly makes it a successful religion. A religion which does nothing more than create ever more poverty stricken Muslims, child brides, female circumcisions, honour killings, terrorism, high rates of rape, domestic abuse, high rates of violent crime and high rates of welfare dependency, does not seem very successful to me. Especially since it is not just a religion, it is an entire social, legal, and political system rolled into one. If Muslim populations are growing in the west, that should be a concern to you.

The declared aim of all the Muslim nations is to destroy Israel and they have tried to wipe out the Israelis with military force three times and failed. The "Palestinians" are their last resort. The object is to keep firing rockets into Israel to make Israel uninhabitable and to terrify the Jewish population into leaving. The Israelis are sick of it and have stopped surgical strikes and are now responding with an overwhelming bombardment.

You should be supporting the Israelis. When the Muslims suburbs (most of the Australians who originally lived there have already fled) near your area start putting bombs in nightclubs, buses and trains, and start shooting rockets into your suburb, I am sure you will be demanding that the Australian Army shoot back at the Muslim suburbs with the whole inventory.

To McAdam 101

You want philosophy now? OK, lets begin.

Do all human being have the same rights?

No. whereas the concept of equal rights may be a noble premise, in reality people are not equal and they should not be reflexively treated equally. Human beings are not equal in physical appearance, age, physical beauty, maturity, intelligence, or physical talents. Your premise is the usual socialist one that was originally penned by US slave owners, that that all people are created equal and have equal rights. This is something I do not accept. We only have to look at how Human Rights are APPLIED in western countries to know that "rights' are unequal.

"Human Rights" legislation invariably benefits selected minority groups, terrorists, criminals, and "refugees." It never benefits ordinary tax payers, the very ones who's money pays for these 'Human Rights" organisations and their well paid "commissioners" in the first place. When Andrew Bolt was being prosecuted under 18C, all of the various state and federal "Human Rights" organisations in Australia were missing in action. "Free Speech" may be a core human right, but it apparently does not apply to white people. As a white, dog owning, 4WD owning, working male who pays taxes, I therefore conclude that "Human Rights" do not apply to me.

But I do recognise that Jews and Muslims are equal in the Middle East. For 1400 years the Muslims have ethnically cleansed and forcibly converted Christens, Jews, Zoroastrians and pagans to set up largely monocultural Muslim societies. I think that the Jews have the same right to do to the Muslims, what the Muslims have been doing to everybody else for 1400 years

Dear LEGO, you wrote:- you were not aware "that Hitler accused the Jews of not building Ipods or microchips"....

It is obvious that Jews were not blamed by Nazis for not producing IPods and microchips but they were looked down upon the way you look down upon,in contempt, the Palestinians today. It is the mind set of assumed supremacy and dehumanizations of others that you and the Nazis have in common. And you have further substantiated it by your lecture on humans not being equal.

You say you have studied Islam and also say that Jews Christians and others were forcefully converted to Islam for past 1400 years and that you wish to avenge it now. Surely you have not studied Islam, for if you had you would never make such a hollow statement. Please consult the experts on the subject; Karen Armstrong for example, who finds that the allegation of use of force for spread of a Islam is false and cites the example of spread of Islam in the largest Muslim country of the world, Indonesia, by Muslim traders. And please think for a moment, what coercive force is being used today in USA and Europe for conversions? I am sure, you would kindly like to review you're statements.

In your last post you wrote; "It is a religion which is behind almost all of the terrorism now raging on this planet".
Nothing could be farther from truth. First terrorist act of unprecedented devastation in the region was blowing up of King David Hotel in Jerusalem by Irgun. And that too was blamed on Palestinians; that is were the terrorism came from. The list of terrorist acts by Irgun,Stern Gang and Hagana, is too long to be included in this post.

The basic point of the article that we are discussing, stands vindicated that there are people on Israeli side who consider Palestinians sub humans and cheer their massacre, as cutting the grass.

Best regards