Dear Banjo,

>>I was referring to … where you explain your father’s teachings in relation to legality and morality<<

Sorry, but that was about the difference between being seen as guilty by a court as opposed to by God. Morality is only indirectly related here.

>>My guess is that you and I would be prepared to take that risk, David, but I doubt that George would, even though it may be in his and all our best interests. <<

Take a risk doing what “surgical operation? On the Bible or Koran that would make you happy? What would be the purpose of it, and even so, are you sure it will make generations to come in thousands of years happier about it than you are now about the originals?

Or did you mean creating plastic replicas of traditional religions where you rooted out all the parts that fanatics of all generation could refer to in justifying their fanaticism often leading to all sorts of “evil deeds”? Something like artificial plants or lawn, free of all dirt and need to maintain? Or something the first little pig in my story http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2909&page=0#66836 thought he could do?

George wrote: “I think you can take a text seriously while still respecting the historical/cultural context in which it was written. As for applying “current standards” we used to joke that Newton would not pass our first year course on calculus (he would know nothing about the epsilon-delta approach), nevertheless we “took seriously” his contribution to mathematics and physics.”

Dear George,

I referred not to science which builds on the work of its predecessors but morality and emotion. We can assume that people in the ancient world had much the same emotions and sense of right and wrong that we have in the present day. I have been at Delphi where the ancient temples of the oracles have been preserved. There were many inscriptions that proclaimed the fact that various individuals had freed their slaves. Apparently to free a slave was considered a virtue. However, the Bible accepts slavery, and Paul enjoins the slave to serve the master faithfully. In that respect biblical morality was lacking compared to the non-biblical morality displayed at Delphi.

The pagan world did not display the intolerance towards those who had other gods that is incorporated in Scripture. Some date the beginning of the Dark Ages to the murder of Hypatia by a Christian mob. Hypatia was a pagan philosopher, mathematician, astronomer and teacher. She refused to become a Christian and her teaching violated the injunction of Paul.

KJV 1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The pagan world of Alexandria allowed a woman to teach. The injunctions of Paul were immoral according to present standards and according to the pagan standards of that time and place.

“The Closing of the Western Mind” by Charles Freeman describes how the advent of Christianity destroyed the spirit of inquiry extant in the pagan world and brought about the Dark Ages.

Chinese classical philosophy developed before the Bible specifies seven emotions – joy, anger, grief, fear, love, hate, desire. That hasn’t changed.

Dear david f,

Thanks for the info, but I think we have been through this before. Not all historians interpret Western history - and Christianity in particular - the way you and Freeman prefer, neither do all historians interpret them in the way I am more happy with. I think most historians will agree that the development of no lasting cultural achievement or idea, including Christianity, was ever “linear”, meaning “monotonely increasing” (forgive my math jargon) towards a betterment that we today see as the ideal. You will always have ups and downs.

As for slavery, just a random search in Wikipedia will give you “Slavery becomes prevalent at the very moment when Solon establishes the basis for Athenian democracy." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece). Nevertheless, ancient Greece is valued as the cradle of democracy, something we view today as positive (that the post-Christian West wants to export to the whole world not unlike their precursors who were exporting the ideas of Christendom). And democracy is not about “science which builds on the work of its predecessors”. (Besides, I think early Christians were not against slavery but against maltreatment of slaves; some were freed but many of them becoming Christians themselves like their masters did not want to leave them. Christianity, especially in those times, was about "love your neighbour" not about "fight for human rights", a slogan that would probably be incomprehensible to them. But then, I am not a historian.)

We already had here the notion of the jealous (or intolerant) God of the Abrahamic religions, especially Christianity and Islam, compared to the more “tolerant” Eastern models, a notion well articulated in the EB quote:

“The Western attitude is expressed by the words of Yahweh on Sinai: ‘You shall have no other gods before me; in the Bhagavad Gita the incarnate god Krishna says, ‘Whatever god a man worships, it is I who answer the prayer’”.

On the other hand, Arnold Toynbee speaks of the models of "God being a self-sacrificing love" and a "jealous God" having their roots in "nature-worshiping" and "man-worshiping" respectively, also within the Judaic group of religions.

.

Dear George,

.

You wrote:

[The three little pigs:

After they learned their lesson, and all built their houses from bricks, they wanted to have some beautiful flowers in their gardens. So they went to a nursery and bought some plants. The first pig liked the flower, but not the rest, so she plucked its head and placed it on the ground in her garden. The second pig kept the flower and the stem but threw away the roots with the dirt they came in, because they were not as pretty as the flower. The third pig was wiser, she realised that the beautiful flower cannot survive for long without its roots. She planted the whole lot, mixing its dirt that clung to its roots with the soil of her own garden, etc.]

.

I hope you don’t mind if I add an epilogue to that interesting sequel you wrote to the fable of the three little pigs. It’s not long. It goes like this:

Observing this, the big bad wolf, who was furious at having burnt his bottom when the third little pig pulled his tail causing him to fall down the chimney into the cauldron of boiling water, secretly planted weeds in the third little pig’s garden at night so they would choke his beautiful flower.

Now the three little pigs were good little Christians and were absolutely convinced that the weeds had been sent by God. They tendered to them with the same loving care as the beautiful flower, not daring to raise a hand to prevent even the most insignificant and ugliest of weeds from entangling its lethal shoots around the delicate blossom in an intricate maze.

The weeds grew stronger and the once beautiful flower waned and withered until it finally died. The three little pigs became sad and forlorn, grew old and ill and were finally buried, one by one, in the garden where the flower once bloomed, never understanding why God had sent them such wicked weeds which they had faithfully protected and cared for as long as they lived.

.

BANJO/QUOTE..<<..fanaticism,..cruelty
and..destruction..and gangrenes society.>>

fanaticism..[the zeal..for] the extreme
how extreme..removing others words/thought..from the books?

how long..before we decide..
all the prophecy..has lapsed..

[i think..the church..like the book says..
no prophecies..or that ALL prophecy..is from demons.

[thing is
its..part..of the creed..
[along with..belief..in miracles and such]
i love my wife dearly..but i dont like....blah blah..

[yet still i love her..
still..i find/her fruits..[good]..sweet..
still..value..the other..great things..that make-up..the total/whole person..[only partly holy]

i suppose..its the big/picture
i suppose..like this topic/loosely says..

duality/karma/balance..
see_no-evil

about..even a beast..knowing..its masters voice
lovers..arnt convinced..by violence..but instinctively.repulsed
know/the source..of good=inspired..of love..[revealed..by grace/mercy..

evil's..a sign..PROOF/of mans/freewill
we can see..more clearly..now..in hindsight

but..the words..a
re only preserved..because of fanatics

where the cut/off point..between cruelty..
and its finality..[ending..or the glory..in avoiding..doing the cruel/destructive things..?

gangerous societies
and fanatics justify..by taking away*[censure]
just like..the books edited out of the story already ..

..[that this fanatic..]
seems intent..of restoring..*back into
the whole story..plus the koran]..inspired from the highest/vile to the higher good..

BY EQUAL MEASURE

[karmic balance/yin-yang]..
its just one/of gods rules
[every action..has an/equal..and opposing..re action]

<<The problem..is..it is so deep-rooted
in the very heart of the “holy scriptures”>>

proving gods karmic balance law..applies to..all equally
[surely in this too..there is a sign..for any thinking man

problematic/deeply/rooted/heart of scriptures
[un-holy in part]..BUT..as balanced..by design..
as freewill..can allow

<<..that there is..a maximum/risk..of death
in/any surgical operation..undertaken to eliminate it.>>

the book's reveal..
god has tried..your remedy..many times..look at..what/that achieved..in the end?

secrets/censure..even wholesale murder*
what has any of it..changed..that karma..hasnt instantly restored?

or simple..has repentance corrected..permantly?

much..good is done..because of
our will to correct..[zealously].
what we feel..our due..of our past guilt..

god rejoices
when..we see/hear/think/say/and seek to do..no evil
but he knows..the flesh..is weak..

we fall..we get up..
we fall..and try to stay up..longer this time
but we arnt machines..[like loki nor god..the deep/thought machination]

the ultimate/EVEr..thinking
loner/lordly/loki like..thought..via life*..light/love logic..
as like..neurons/bits..living out our own*..karmic balance between good/vile]..

[betwixt..real/imagined..implied/lied..
of god..or for/..of mice and them..[men]

the middle/way/ta0
not wholly..mortal flesh/..nor dead..
but..not yet..eternal spirit/living..till..we chose/
where*..our wants..need/us to be...to be..[to be seen 2b..free]

Dear George,

I appreciate your math jargon. That is a part of the language which is largely devoid of ambiguity. I also appreciate the sort of language with which one can make poetry.

We have been through this before. I guess we both enjoy the joust or we wouldn’t repeat it. I’m sure I would like you if I ever met you.

One can make what one will of Christianity or any other religion. In “The Arrogance of Faith” Wood tells how Christianity was used to justify slavery in the antebellum southern United States. Yet John Brown and William Wilberforce were dedicated Christians who found in their religion inspiration to oppose slavery.

I can find some wonderful quotes in Christianity. I particularly like, Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them and Matthew 7:3 (KJV) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

We probably disagree on what those fruits are. I find the fruits of Christianity more bad than good. However, I think it very good advice to avoid being judgmental and to confront one’s own failings.

Religious wars are not restricted to the monotheistic religions. The current conflict in Sri Lanka seems to be driven by the Buddhist clergy in their desire to suppress the Hindu Tamils. However, the religious wars of Christianity and Islam seem to me of much greater degree.

Democracy has changed through the years. Athenian democracy which excluded women, slaves and those of foreign ancestry would be currently unacceptable. John Keane finds the cradle of democracy much earlier than Athens. You might find his book, “The Life and Death of Democracy” most interesting.

Dear Banjo,

Thanks for the porcine fable. I have sent it to my wife.