davidf/quote..<<..You have to try to..actually do something*..to make up for..wrongdoing.>>

in gone west..this essential*..karmic correction/balancing is a constant theme..[for example..it reports..the rspca..was a deliberate corrective act..

[it was inspired,..by a renowned 'scientist..
the discovery..[made in hell]..of the real suffering..by lab animals
..

inflicted..specifically by experimentation/vivisecting
beasts in labs..resulted in him..'inspiring'..those of like mindset..to establish..rspca

<<Wrong doing..is what our conscience tells..us is wrong,..>>

agreed..but..if our mind..tells itself..*it feels guilty
that allows the like minds..[..spirit's]..to inspire further guilt redemptive act..

based on a faulty/faulse implied
FEELING of guilt..where guilt shouldn't be due*
like sex guilt/blame shame..more of the same..will return 7 fold..[jesus]

some are expert at making others feel..guilty
yet again..though..imust agree..there is self guilt
[that grace mercyallows toforgive]..ie self hurt[not a sinm]

and true..sin
<<..sin is defined by..some external entity...>>
and that done..unto..*not for..other.

ignorance is bliss
..<<..knowledge of Good and Evil..points out the arbitrariness of obedience to religious dictums...They were punished..for the sin of disobedience.>>..

THE SAMEas the fallen angels did..before them
after god created adam..to judge..the fallen..WHO TOO..must have beengiven..ONE simple copmmand

what was the one little thing god asked of the angels

that did cause the fall?..of stan/half of the angels
[lookto loki for clues..sssshhh

<<..However, until they had eaten..the fruit>>

ie acted upon
their own..sinfull..free willful nature
..<<..how would they..>>..JUDGE SATAN..etal..

as equals/peers..
without the SURE KNOWING..of what sin*..consists of..

what quantifies..
definitively..as a sin...*,..?

ie..to..<<..have knowledge of good and evil..or JUST..right and wrong.>>

yes its a fine line
wrong..for who?

yes we lost our innocence,,but..look at what we got..
a truellly wise soloman like..[good/god..gracefull by works/deed..

all loving/sustaining..*all the living
sustaining to live..even..the most vile beast
[according to its wants/needs..nature..not gods true nurture]

ALLOWING us via FREEWIL..to judge ourselves..
freewill to condemn..our=self..by throwing stones at others..
[ie satans minions..the/fallen..who said L..we are born of the fire..adam mere clay..

how dare you allow him..
to *judge we versus thee

bow down before equals?
why..[the pope washes feet dont he?]

serve god..by serving all*..other
whoshall lead you..will serve you

who is not srerving
isnt deseving?

<<We do not punish children>>

ahhmen
..im presuming
your rejecting sitting on the jury?

ok your excused*

<<..for crimes>>..when we now KNOW*
..they WERE both innocent.. angelnnocents..adam/eve..innocent

<<..too young to appreciate the wrongness of their acts.
Yet God punished..the two innocents.>>..plus half the fallen angels

by allowing us to chose
we find lord..you were most fair
thus satans assertions..seem reasonable

[father..your too much...of a nice guy..at heart..
[all heart]..but we wont tell..if you dont.

In my opinion the Bible is essentially evil in the arbitrary nature of the blind, senseless obedience it demands

Banjo wrote: “Perhaps that’s why some people accept responsibility for things they did not do. Jesus of Nazareth, for example – though the pleasure was short lived.”

We are responsible for our sins or wrongdoing. For us or anybody else to take responsibility for what we didn’t do is just plain nutty. Jesus or any other entity cannot take on our guilt nor can we take on any other entity’s guilt.

The evil in the Bible continues in the New Testament. An arbitrary God who commands his follower to murder his son in the Jewish Bible in the New Testament subjects his own son to torture for sins he didn’t commit.

As I said the Bible is an evil book. If there is a God it cannot be the arbitrary, sadistic one described in the Bible.

One can partially ameliorate the evil of the Bible by relying on tradition and interpretation as Catholic and non-fundamentalist Jewish, Protestant and Orthodox clerics have done, but it still has its evil presence.

I also regret the mechanism which prevents them from seeing clear.

Banjo also wrote: “I suspect that most people see nothing to gain and everything to lose from accepting responsibility and are not interested in finding out if they feel better or worse if they did.”

Banjo, you may well be right. I think the ethical systems derived from most religions which incorporate mechanisms for freeing us from responsibility for our wrongdoings should be replaced by something better which would encourage us to take responsibility.

Dear David f,

I think you are mixing here a couple of things, Catholic practice of confession (called now reconciliation), questions of guilt, moral, psychological and legal (not the same thing), “punishment” as penance in the confessional and as sentence in a court, nitpicking the Adam and Eve Bible story.

>>It may ease our own mind, but if we do nothing to make up for it we are just as guilty.<<

Firstly, note that I compared confession and absolution not with legal procedures in a court, but with the relation between a loving parent having to forgive and/or punish his/her own child.

Secondly, I made it explicit, that reconciliation does not end with contrition, you get a penance to do: at least to say some prayers, or go and ask forgiveness from the person you harmed, or - when the sin is actually a crime - absolution can be usually obtained only after the sinner has reported himself to the police.

Legally, in the court, punishment is called sentence, and is based on evidence; during reconciliation it is called penance, and is based on what you confess and how sincere your act of contrition is - no evidence possible here, only faith that God knows if you lied or cheated. This reflects also on the difference between guilt that only God i.e. his representative, can absolve you from, and guilt for which only the court, i.e. its representative (the judge) can assign you an appropriate punishment.

When I was a child my father explained the difference to me thus: if you decide to stab in order to kill your neighbor, but are clumsy, slip or what, and the neighbor escapes, without him or anybody noticing your intention, you are not guilty before any worldly court, because there is no evidence. But you are guilty before God, you sinned in your mind which He can read. (And there is a third, the psychological, meaning of guilt that I am not going into.)
(ctd)

(ctd)

>>Disobedience to an arbitrary injunction where no harm is caused by the act is something I don’t think should be a sin.<<

For Catholics sin is decided by the Magistrate, and if it is just a minor matter of discipline (like abstinence from meat), it is actually irrelevant whether outsiders see it as such or not. In matters more serious one still has to distinguish between sin (going against how the Church sees God’s will and the wellbeing of the society) and crime (going against the wellbeing of the society for which there is a general consent dependent on the zeitgeist and culture). Here conscience comes into play.

As far as conscience is concerned, it also depends whether it clashes with a legal system (the Berigan brothers’ conscience obviously did) or, in case of a Catholic, with the moral teaching of the Church (which in case of Berigan brothers was not as explicit as it became with many Catholic dissident theologians).

As for Adam and Eve, here I don’t see any relevance to the Catholic practice of confession; after all it is part of not only the whole Christian, but also Jewish tradition (and probably also Muslim). I do not understand: A dog does not have “the knowledge of Good and Evil” but you still can punish him for disobedience.

>>In my opinion the Bible is essentially evil in the arbitrary nature of the blind, senseless obedience it demands<<

That is your opinion, however, returning the metaphor of parent and child, an obedience in certain matters that for a five year old seems “blind and senseless” might not seem so when he grows up. Part of the reason why the unknowable God is modeled as a Father, and we as his children, is that things he demands might look for us sometimes as "blind and senseless". That is not the problem, The problem is, whether we can understand Him, directly or through mediators (prophets, theologians, for Catholics the Magisterium).

You made me write on topics that I am not very much at home with. But thanks.

george/quote..<<..A dog..does not/have..“the knowledge..of Good/Evil”..but..you still..*can punish him..for disobedience.>>

yes we can...punish*
but really..the dog..has long/forgotten

and two seconds later..will return-love for love
persistent punishment..forces the dog..away from doing..things..*of the dog..

but dog..can never be god

never the/less..earlier on..in my travails..
i pictured..god..LIKE a HUGE living/loving puppy..so..innately/loving forgiving..yet..will crush the-unwary.

next..i pictured god..
as ALPHA../...negative alpha
[supreme good..plus supremely evil..[yin tang]..

both..were wrong..of course

next..i came closer..by this time
many were leading us..towards god/being..the sun*
[yet..all the suns..in the earthy/heaven disclaim..*[proclaim]....that

anyhow..by this time..
i was sur.. god was good..[just good..ALL GOOD]
and i wished to see her..and..as the light..is key..anyhow*

i looked..at the sun
intently..with love..[open pupils]..
anyhow..i saw the sun..become blue..and look..
much like a massive engorged..[nursing]..nipple..with the life/juice [light/photons]..emitting..[light]..sustaining all living

saw..that each sun..radiated..the fathers light..[milk]
[this was..at the time of statues..'drinking' milk..in in india'

[and..the time of the ross kelly/letter 1996..to the prince/and his [and elanes]..performing of time travel..[under lord chronos]..as well as..his fatima letter

but i
drift off/topic

david..>>In my opinion the Bible is essentially evil in the arbitrary nature of the blind, senseless obedience it demands<<..

yes..but see..its karmicly..*..BALANCED
*both good..and evil..can find comfort..in the words
[each..according to their want]..

[but those..who KNOW..god is light love*
life logic/grace/mercy..

they..*NOW the vile..cant be..'of' god
[ie..not good=not of god=thus of men..hearing negative/voices]

so yes..generally speaking..i would agree..
but when we find ..he good as gold..in any* holy text..
we learn more..about our true father/love/light logus/life etc

ps the koran..teaches much..too
much come from..on high..and much from..down low

i have found good/bad
in so many texts..but such..is
*as it must be..in satans realm

they*..were written..all by good beings,..as much as bad
but karmic balancing...is always present..[in this realm]

in..everything we*..[in
this realm].. write/say..think desire to do

george...<<..Part of..the reason..why the unknowable God
is modeled..as a Father,>>..is that life*..can only come from life

and life
needs matriarchal nurture
by its very nature..[to further absolve [loki?]