Oh gosh, Poirot,

Do you think I have the luxury of time to get out the history books on Israel and Palestine? This subject has really only been of interest to me fairly recently because it seemed too complex to bother. Am concerned about various issues (current/world) but have to work and have my own interests. I like to read what members of the public have to say on forums, especially OLO, as I believe the public is far more honest than what you may read in the media - and also more succinct (little time). But still read wknd SMH. And then if possible - I do online research to verify new things I learn on OLO and then learn even more in googling. I also watch all else happening (and look at history) in the rest of the world, particularly Arab/Muslim countries at the same time while forming my own judgement on Palestine and Israel issue. I'm actually pretty nervous about it all. Did you watch Dateline tonight and read the viewers comments on its site? I actually haven't been making any comments on OLO for a long time (just reading) and I don't always have the time for ongoing chatfests and the quick responses expected. It can become too much of a commitment. I only make a comment when compelled to, whether supporting a contributor's comment or broadening discussion. But I think myself, rpg and many others with balanced and dispassionate judgement realise what the crux of the Palestinian issue really is.

Correction: Not chatfest, more opinefest.

David
If this idea(Jordan taking over Palestine)was coming from the Palestinians then I would be all for it. Since the Palestinian people reject the idea and its only promoters are people like you David, who have done most to cause the problems in the first place, I dont give it much credence beyond wishful thinking and self serving wishful thinking at that.

<<Doesn't Australia recognize the 21 Islamic Arab states and the 36 other Islamic states>>

I knew you were going to say that. I will be more clear.
Tell me which country we recognise as a "religious" entity? And dont say the vatican because that is hardly a "country" no matter what supposed autonomy it has within Italy.
The sauds? Undoubtedly a very theocratic country but we recognise it as a monarchy dont we? A foul weazelly way of avoiding the issue and making sure we dont turn off the oil tap for sure but it is not the same as recognising them as an "islamic state". We dont recognise Iran precisely because it is a religious theocracy where the mullahs have the reins of power. The same as Afghanistan under the Taliban was shunned by most of the world. To recognise Israel as a "Jewish state" would be hypocrisy in the extreme and against everything secular western society believes about the separation of church and state.
Also past israeli actions and policies lead me to believe that a "jewish state" would practice discrimination and intolerance against those citizens who were not jewish.

I would gladly recognise a democratic, secular Israel as a country started and mostly populated by jews and agree that they have every right to their country, and peace and security, IF Israel stopped the oppression and dispossession of the Palestinians and moved back within its recognised borders from before the wars of 1948. I dont hate jews or Israel. I hate religiously inspired injustice and oppression. I hate the powerful bullying and exploiting the weak. I hate guns against stones, apaches against homemade rockets and bulldozers against people homes

<<A Jew is a person who considers himself to be Jewish.>>

So they dont have to be religious or even believe in god/yawah?
Do they have to have any jewish heritage/blood?
Can people convert the same as most religions?
Is anyone restricted from becoming a jew?
Could anyone just say "I consider myself to be jewish" and that would be enough?

I really dont understand. Is being "jewish" a religion or a culture or an ethnic group or what? Its not like any other religion I have ever come across.

Mikk, I have previously considered your question, and arrived at the conclusion that Judaism is a national-movement.

Most religions are concerned with the relationship between an individual and God - but not so the Jewish religion, which is concerned with the relationship between the nation of Israel and God. Both the benefits of following the Jewish religion and the repercussions of not following it, are accrued by the nation, not by the individual.

National movements have all kinds of devices that hold them together. This may include a flag, an emblem, an anthem, a territory, an ethnicity, a royal lineage, a language, legends, a preferred religion, etc. In the case of Judaism, an important such device is the Jewish religion. However, the device - the part, must not be confused with the whole.

It is interesting to note, that within Jewish history, those who took religion "too seriously", out of its original national context, who actually sought to concentrate on its spiritual meaning and how it relates to individuals, were cast away. The most famous among them was even crucified as a result.

Your confusion stems from the fact that there is currently no concensus within the Jewish nation as to what should be the criteria for joining the nation.

poirot, you're stuck in this place where you see all reference to Israel and the Palestinians as a win/lose, this side or that side battle.

your language reflects this .. "I s'pose that makes you the winner - congratulations!"

I'm not looking for a victory, or a loss but I do see that people are expected to take a side, Palestinians or Israelis, then slug it out .. as most do here.

The Palestinians would be best served standing off, going to Jordan or where ever and getting on with life, you won't displace the Israelis and I just cannot understand why people try to - they are not going to move and they are powerful with powerful friends.

yes it's sad, but that's life for many people and always has been, and I'm sure the Palestinians would have done that if not for "sympathizers" who encouraged them to stay and fight or whine whichever works best.

By staying, where the incumbent is unmovable, the Palestinians are condemning generations to misery .. as a father, I just could not do that to my children, yet it is so ingrained in the psyche in this region.

Whether the jews have a right or not is beside the point, they will not move - so you have to if you are not powerful enough to change that.