the palestinians I suspect don't want the stand off with Israel to ever end, if it does and peace comes - they will have to accept living normal lives like most of the rest of the world .. and do without the attention they have become used to.

the constant flow of sympathy money has replaced any need for a national industries, they are the proxy warriors of all the other Arab states (and progressive sympathizers, and useful idiots) who support them

someone said this recently elsewhere on olo, that they are career terrorists, for many their occupation could be listed as jew hating and baiting .. it's a living, clearly they get paid for it, they bring up families, they have a career structure and prospects

what happens if all that suddenly disappears .. peace breaks out?

what will they do? they are regional tough brats, their ego and "honor" is dependent on their hatred of the jewish people.

if they ever admit that Israel CAN exist, then the whole facade begins to crumble

Isreal does not go looking for trouble (well, outside of the settlements) but the palestinians, fatah, hamas, do

I've watched this all my life, and I'm not convinced the palestinians or their followers really want peace or whether they want their lifestyle to continue as it is, with the attention and importance they get from this conflict

this is a region of big egos, and of course "honour", what happens if that is taken away?

rpg,

I'm sure that if someone turned up on your doorstep and informed you that on account of the fact that their ancestors once resided in your house, that they would be moving back in. Of course, you would be welcome to hang around as long as you took up residence on the back porch.
One imagines (judging by your attitude) that you would be thrilled at the prospect and would desist from throwing rocks at their windows, being content to make yourself comfortable in you new - if not depleted surroundings.

I have often thought a solution to the Palestine-Israel conflict was acquire more land for Palestine from Jordan and Egypt, so it is very interesting to see the map David Singer displays on his blog -

http://www.jordanispalestine.blogspot.com/

.
rpg, yes there is big egos, and so-called honor involved, as well as an acquired culture of revenge and hatred on both sides. The scene was set by the Kind David Hotel bombing (and the implosion of British and other European diplomacy), which elevated a key player into a later Israeli leadership role.

The ironies include close DNA links between Palestinians and Israelis developed when before most Jews left in the region over 1,000 years ago
.

correction, omit 'when' and 'in' ...

The ironies include close DNA links between Palestinians and Israelis developed before most Jews left the region over 1,000 years ago
.

Well, the Singer is back and his discordant song is still the same: "It's All The Palestinian's Fault."

RPJ, with his one eye, joins him in the dismal chorus.

Funny thing is, Singer is a lawyer and, in Family Law, they moved to no-fault divorce believing that both sides contributed to the marriage failure. But Singer can't countenance this concept in the M.E. He believes Israel is right and the Palestinians are wrong, end of story.

The bottom line is that putting Israel in the middle of Palestine was a gigantic mistake, kind of like waving a red flag at a bull. Israel should be moved to another country, say Texas in America, and not be allowed to arm themselves under any circumstances.

The new Israel could prosper there instead of igniting what could end up being a nuclear M.E. war that will end our world.

Should a few million religious fanatics be allowed to threaten the survival of the human race? I think not!

David G. Man of peace.

http://www.dangerouscreation.com

Poirot.

Agreed. The Zionists originally claimed that they intended a 100% 'purchase' of Palestinian land, some Western observers,at the time, realized the sinister implications of this policy.Of course the Palestinians were never deceived and understood the catastrophic implications.

David Singer,

Palestinian haters can't be condoned either.

What kind of polity is a 'Jewish State',does it have something in common with neighboring Islamic states? Israel has little interest in peace as it possesses most of the weapons and the Zionist project is not completed, as you've indicated.

McReal,

No,the solution to the Palestinian-Israel conflict will not be found in arrogant attempts to lump all Arabs together,but in the cessation of the continuous theft of Palestinian land.

mac, I didn't mean lumping them together - I mean for Jordan (and Egypt) to give land for a sovereign Palestinian State.

A key issue is the Israelis will always be suspicious that someone will have a go at them at some time. Perhaps it is better to maintain and contain their conflict as they currently do?

#mac

You ask:

"What kind of polity is a 'Jewish State',does it have something in common with neighboring Islamic states?"

Yes it does.Israel's current population is 20% Arab - mainly Islamic with a small Christian Arab population. Arabic is one of the two official languages in Israel.Israel has signed peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt.Islamic and Christian culture, religious festivals and customs are respected. Jews and Arabs are cousins. Its time they made peace not war.

I still believe the way to achieve this is for direct negotiations between Jordan and Israel to divide sovereignty of the West Bank between their respective States. This will to a very large degree restore the status quo that existed in June 1967 at the outset of the Six Days War. No Arab or Jew will have to leave his present home or business. Perhaps both Jews and Arabs together can then begin to make the region one of the most prosperous in the world.

Had the PA and Israel been able to achieve a resolution that would have been fine. But the last 17 years have shown this to be incapable of achievement.The current talks will go nowhere.

Jordan can succeed where the PA has been unable to do so. Ultimately this is going to have to occur if further war and bloodshed is to be avoided.

Yes it is time for a divorce from the PA and for Israel to woo another Arab partner for peace in the West Bank - Jordan.

David G states:

"Well, the Singer is back and his discordant song is still the same: "It's All The Palestinian's Fault."

Consider the following:
1. The Arabs rejected the Peel Commission recommendations in 1937 which would have created an independent Palestinian Arab state
2. The Arabs rejected the UN Partition Plan in 1947 which would have created an independent Palestinian Arab state.
3. The Arabs failed to create a Palestinian Arab State in the West Bank,Gaza and East Jerusalem between 1948-1967 when not one Jew lived there - the Jews having been driven out of their homes in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem by six invading Arab armies. This missed opportunity cannot now be remedied as 500000 Jews now live in the former Jordanian occupied territory having returned to settle there as they were legally entitled to do under article 6 of the Mandate and article 80 of the United Nations Charter.
4. The Arabs refused to negotiate with Israel on the future of the West Bank and Gaza between 1967-1993 after their loss by Egypt and Jordan to Israel in the Six Day War in 1967.
5. The Arabs refused offers by Israel to cede its claims in more than 90% of the West Bank and Gaza in 2001 and 2008.
6. Israel unilaterally evacuated its 8000 Jewish residents from Gaza in 2005 and received thousands of rockets as a thank you.
7. The Arabs are still not prepared to recognize Israel as the national homeland of the Jewish people.

As Abba Eban once said - "The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity"

That of course is their perfect right. But it has cost them and will continue to cost them - and the Jews - dearly.

Fair-minded, Australians! Please consider the following:

1. Since Israel was illegally created following WW2, the Israelis have made the lives of generations of Palestinians a complete misery.
2. Since 1967 all of the Palestinians have been under brutal occupation.
3. The Israelis have, since 1967, continued to build settlements on Palestinian land which is illegal and created Jew-only roads.
4. The Israelis have, since 1967, continued to demolish Palestinian homes and forced them to wait endlessly at check-points even to the point of children being born there.
5. The Israelis have broken up Palestinian farms, destroyed crops and olive trees, and built concrete walls which separate families and communities.
6. The Israelis have forced Palestinians who live in East Jerusalem out of their homes and left them in the street surrounded by their belongings.
7. The Israelis have shot stone-throwing children with both rubber-coated bullets and live rounds and Israeli snipers have head-shot Palestinian children who were playing outside their homes.
8. The Israelis the Xmas before last, bombed Gaza killing more than 1,400 Gazans among whom were 400+ children. Since the bombing, which involved the use of phosphorous shells, the Gazans have been under siege and for much of the time have been deprived of food and medical aid. The Israelis have also bombed Lebanon causing many casualties and much destruction.
9. The Israelis have imprisoned many Palestinians without charge and recent reports show that the Israelis have sexually molested some of their young prisoners.
10. The Israelis have refused right of return and have showed no inclination to pay compensation to the Palestinians for the nightmare they have been forced to endure, a nightmare that has robbed them of all hope and justice.

It's no wonder Palestinians hate Jews and don't want to accord them recognition. If I'd been forced to endure what the Palestinians have over decades, I'd probably hate them too!

McReal,

OK, however, I can't think of any moral or political imperative that requires the Egyptians or Jordanians to surrender their sovereign territory to create a Palestinian state. It's not their responsibility.

David Singer,

Your 'Jewish State' sounds like the usual western liberal democratic society, I'm still perplexed as to why Israel is classified as a 'Jewish State'. There seems to be some unstated implications in the term.

You mentioned restoring the status quo ante 1967 by 'dividing the sovereignty of the West bank' between Jordan and Israel and that 'No Arab or Jew will have to leave his present home or business'. Are you suggesting a condominium or a border drawn somewhere? What of the 'settlers', if there's to be a border, is it at the limit of Jewish settlement on the West bank?

In your reply to David G "Consider the following" you listed some Palestinian 'failings' in rejecting partition of their country, they have a pefect right to have done so, in a just world their decision would have ended Zionist colonisation. People have a right to resist invasion.
That said, I'm not defending the hare-brained decisions of the Palestinian political elites, who for reasons of their own, refuse to acknowledge that Israel is here to stay. I also wish supporters of Israel wouldn't automatically claim the moral high ground.

@ mac: of course it's not their responsibility. It probably was the Brits when they were the imperialists 70-150 years ago.

Those countries probably wouldn't have to give up much, tho'.They both probably have no go areas near their Israeli borders, anyway - especially Egypt with all those tunnels, etc.

Haters of any sort cannot be condoned but regardless, some people, particularly the dispossessed, will find ways to hate (someone to blame).

What is more worrying is the tendency for some commentators to lump anyone who might criticise Israels colonial history and treatment of the Palestinians as 'Jew haters'. It is dishonest and disingenuous and does not serve to resolve what is a very tragic situation for all concerned.

The racist attitudes towards Palestinians should also not be condoned, neither should terrorism be condoned. The Middle East is a mess.

To David G

You erroneously state :

"Since 1967 all of the Palestinians have been under brutal occupation."

In fact:

1. 55% of the West Bank Arabs living in 17% of the West Bank are entirely under the administrative and security control of the PA.

2. 41% of the West Bank Arabs living in 24% of the West Bank are under Israeli security control and PA administrative control.

3. Only 4% of the West Bank Arabs living in the remaining 59% of the West Bank are under Israeli administrative and security control.

I have previously identified you as a Jew-Hater and your failure to mention the thousands of deaths and injuries suffered by Jews in the West Bank since 1967 - culminating with the murder two weeks ago of two married couples - one pregnant - leaving seven orphans to grieve their parents - confirms that view.

Whilst such murders continue strict security controls remain necessary.

The settlements are not illegal as you claim. They are legal under article 6 of the Mandate for Palestine and article 80 of the United Nations Charter.

To MacReal

Israel is a Jewish State because the reconstitution of the Jewish National Home in Palestine was prescribed by the League of Nations.The United Nations also recommended partition of western Palestine into a Jewish State and an Arab State.

Certainly the Arabs are entitled to reject every proposal to share Palestine with the Jews - as they indeed have done since 1937. However this intransigence has brought nothing but suffering and misery to both Jews and Arabs. Is this to be the perpetual position?

If the PA can't work out a solution with Israel then Jordan appears to be the only Arab state that can come to an agreement with Israel.

A new border between Israel and Jordan based on direct negotiations between those States would resolve the issue of sovereignty of the West Bank and determine the future citizenship of the Jews and Arabs presently living there.

Israel is the most dangerous destablising country on the planet.It must stop it's war mongering with Iran.No country in the Middle East can threaten it.It has a conservative estimate of 200 nukes and the means to deliver them.Iran has yet to develop one.Why is Iran such a threat when Pakistan which is far more unstable has lots fo nukes?

If Israel stopped the slow genocide of the Palistinians then they will have some credibility.

poirot you are wrong to assume everyone thinks the way you and your hateful vengeful types do.

My father's family was from the baltic states, when the russians occupied their homes and transported people to other areas, he got out - and moved on.

If i was turfed out of my house by someone obviously stronger and with no recourse, then I too would move on, and not spend my life in agony and pain hating for the sake of it, then teaching my children to hate and encouraging them to join others hating.

That's why I see things this way, the palestinians have had so many opportunities to move on, but they won't, big egos, big money from other arab states .. they are the front line and the proxies of other arabs who hate the jews as well.

personally I think the jews are very controlled in their responses to the constant attacks, the worldwide humiliation from the press, the pariah status all progressive types label them with and the fact they live under such a threat is a credit to their demeaner.

Look, poirot, should the anglo saxons still hate the normans? The australian indigenous still hate the anglo saxons, but now extend it to hate everyone (that's the source of their pain) not even an pology helped did it .. they hate and are encouraged to continue hating

this stuff goes on and always have, people get displaced .. if you don't move on, it eats you up and you end up in poisonous hatred forever.

my father coached our family against harbouring desires to "get our land back", or get revenge or whatever, his advice was to get on with your life and do the best you can with it.

you on the other hand, are spiteful for the palestinians and take up their hatred, if they stop hating, if peace comes - how will they answer to you who are busy hating jews on their behalf?

Hopefully Iran will develop the bomb and then we'll have peace in the ME.

At the moment there is simply no need for Israel to make peace. Their military is by far the best equipped and trained. It is only when they are faced with a serious adversary that they will recognise the need for peace. They know this and will continue expanding the settlements, creating 'facts on the ground' until the realpolitik of a nuclear armed adversary demands they agree to a solution.

When they have a reason to make peace it will happen quickly.

Good one rpg! Well said. So true.

Dear rpg,

You do bang on about "hate'. Labelling myself as hateful and vengeful simply because I have sympathy for an oppressed people is a little over the top.
I doubt whether the Palestinians who presently reside in that huge concentration camp called "Gaza" would agree that the Israelis were very "controlled" during their recent(aptly titled) "offensive". This was one of the most sickening demonstrations of "overkill" the world has witnessed in recent history - you obviously believe it was warranted.
It seems that the Jewish people were not privy to the sort of advice your father gave you - they always wanted to reclaim the land they saw as theirs.

Dear Constance,

Just noticed your insightful contribution to the discussion at hand.
Thank goodness for people like you - OLO, of course, is at times somewhat like a tag team sport, so it's important to have people on the sidelines cheering for their side - it adds to the atmosphere!
Do you, perchance, have anything pertinent to add to the discussion here...any gems of wisdom from the spectator section?

So Mr singer
You state that "Jordan and Israel should divide up the West Bank between them and that no Israeli or Palestinian would have to leave their homes."

So where would the border be? And how does that relate to the map on your blog? http://www.jordanispalestine.blogspot.com/
which just for those who havent noticed shows Israel occupying all of the West Bank and Gaza.

Admit it singer you are just a zionist who sees all of "eretz israel" as your god given right and will stop at nothing to achieve your ends of genocide and ethnic cleansing of all the land west of the Jordan river.

You keep rabbiting on about the arabs, and presumably the rest of us, having to recognise Israel as "a jewish state" with a seeming total blindness to the fact that here in Australia(and the rest of the western world)we do not recognise theocracies and rule by religion. We believe in separation of church and state and for good reason. We will not be recognising any such religious state be it jewish, islamic or any other religion ruling over its people. Mullahs,rabbis or priests ruling over anybody leads to very bad outcomes for society as we have seen time and time again throughout history.

The only answer is for Israel to stop stealing Palestinian land and accept that they must share Jerusalem and limit their expansionism. Decide on their borders permanently and not discriminate against those who arent jewish. Irrespective of what their god says.

Mikk, yours is an excellent comment but will it change anything in Singer's mind? No way. He sees what he wants to see and ignores everything else. Religion does that to people, especially to fanatics.

I presented him with a list of Israel's atrocities and war crimes and he ignored the whole lot as he has done many times before.

Why he is allowed to push his duplicitous, racist propaganda on OLO so often I cannot fathom.

poirot, your sympathy encourages the Palestinians to continue their their hating of Israel. You underwrite it, you and so many others, like the supporters of the Irish troubles which kept going for years because sympathizers continued to give solace and funding to them .. now you may not give funds in your sympathy, but many do .. by doing that, you have taken a side with all it entails, but then when it suits you, you stand off and say " oh, I'm merely sympathetic".

You defend the terror they continue with in the name of sympathy .. if all the sympathizers backed off from both sides, stop funding, stop supporting them both - then you take away the reasons to continue the standoff - at the moment, the Palestinians, Fattah and Hamas get so much funding from Arab countries, and "sympathizers" that they don't really want it to end, it's a career it gives the players importance. It self propagates.

Hey and what's Constance done aside of what so many do on OLO, if they agree with someone, they say so .. it's interesting that I have never seen you take to task and scold anyone else who has done exactly that .. you are very selective in your anger aren't you? She was merely being "sympathetic".

If you support someone's hate, you have bought into it .. plain and simple. I can see though that it disturbs you to have the mirror put to you so that you can see what you are, a supporter of terrorism?

# To Mac

You state:

"The Zionists originally claimed that they intended a 100% 'purchase' of Palestinian land, some Western observers,at the time, realized the sinister implications of this policy.Of course the Palestinians were never deceived and understood the catastrophic implications."

In fact 77% of the land promised to the Jewish people was denied to them just three months after it had been promised to them by the League of Nations. That land is today called Jordan where reconstitution of the Jewish National home was declared to be not applicable.

It is amazing how many factual inaccuracies are appearing in responses to my post. They obviously have the capacity to influence opinions. Those making them are either ignorant or deliberately misleading readers.

# To Arjay

You state:

"If Israel stopped the slow genocide of the Palistinians then they will have some credibility."

In fact the West Bank Palestinian Arab population in INCREASING.

If you stopped making such misleading comments then you might gain some credibility.

# To Poirot

You state:

"I doubt whether the Palestinians who presently reside in that huge concentration camp called "Gaza"

Perhaps you and others taken in by your hyperbole might care to view the following:

http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/01/scenes-from-the-gaza-concentration-camp/

Certainly there are issues concerning the entry and movement of people and goods into and out of Gaza. But to call Gaza a concentration camp is to attempt to compare the Jews to the Nazis. That is classic Jew hating.

Thanks for that gem of wisdom from the spectator section. It contributes nothing to a serious discussion of resolving the conflict.

#To mikk

You state:

"So where would the border be? And how does that relate to the map on your blog? http://www.jordanispalestine.blogspot.com/
which just for those who havent noticed shows Israel occupying all of the West Bank and Gaza."

The border between Jordan and Israel will be delineated through the West Bank in direct negotiations between Jordan and Israel. I would expect around 90% of the West Bank to become Jordan's sovereign territory.

Miracles can happen. I never thought I would see the day when you would start looking at solutions to the conflict.

You unfortunately blot your copybook with this choice remark:

"You keep rabbiting on about the arabs, and presumably the rest of us, having to recognise Israel as "a jewish state" with a seeming total blindness to the fact that here in Australia(and the rest of the western world)we do not recognise theocracies and rule by religion. We believe in separation of church and state and for good reason. We will not be recognising any such religious state be it jewish, islamic or any other religion ruling over its people. Mullahs,rabbis or priests ruling over anybody leads to very bad outcomes for society as we have seen time and time again throughout history."

Doesn't Australia recognize the 21 Islamic Arab states and the 36 other Islamic states that together make up the 57 members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference? Are they ruled over by mullahs or by secular governments? Their majority populations are all Islamic

Is it that difficult for you to understand and recognize the concept of a "Jewish state" in the same breath - ie a State the majority of whose population are Jewish ruled by a secular government?

Australia was at the forefront of creating and recognizing the Jewish State.

Do you want the Jews to be deprived of their one State in the world and replaced with a 22nd Arab Islamic state?

You are entitled to maintain that view but I am entitled to my view that such an opinion is Jew hatred of the worst kind.

David Singer would you please define precisely what is "a jew". In a television documentary recently about Israel a fairhaired, blue eyed, jewish/Israeli, female citizen proudly exclaimed that she was a"jew" but did not believe in a god!By her colouring she certainly was not an ethnic semitic jew but an ashkanazi jew.
So what ethnically or religiously gives her the right to call herself a jew and how could any contrary discussion about her questionable jewish status be condemned as 'anti-semetic'? Would not this statement apply to at least 30-40% of the jewish Israeli State population in the instance of jew as a religion and probably 70-80% in the case of ethnicity and right to be in 'the jewish state'?
Therefore Mr Singer what is a 'jew'?

"Thanks for that gem of wisdom from the spectator section. It contributes nothing to a serious discussion of resolving the conflict."

Ah .. so sorry, is that what you're having with mikk, DavidG, gazzaboy, poirot and others?

"a serious discussion of resolving the conflict", it looks more like a game of adversarial tennis .. but I'm probably wrong, happens all the time.

I thought it was just people expressing their opinions here on OLO, seems I've wandered into the peace talks .. what do you reckon the score is?

While Jews are involved in any 'peace talks', there will be no peace talks, rpg!

They have been pretending to be involved in peace talks since 1967 and all the while they've been building settlements, carrying out genocide against the Palestinians, building up their army (with America assistance), acquiring nuclear weapons (with American assistance), carrying out continuous brutality against the Palestinians to try to break them and force them to move elsewhere, demolishing Palestinian homes, destroying their farms, shooting Palestinian children, stealing Palestinian taxes, starving them, and planning how to build Greater Israel (with American assistance),etc.

When Israel is relocated to America, then peace might stand a chance!

rpg,

I seem to have the ability to get under your skin - "you see what you are, a supporter of terrorism". Now, those are strong words, but as you seem to be prone to hysteria, I'll ignore them.

Talking of funding, I don't suppose you have any objections to U.S. funding of Israel. No? Funny, I could have predicted you'd say that.
According to the U.S. Congressional Research Service, Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since WWII. Since 1985, the U.S. has provided nearly $3 Billion in grants annually to Israel, almost all of it bilateral aid in the form of military assistance.
In August 2007, the Bush Administration announced that it would increase U.S. military assistance to Israel by $6 Billion - the agreement calls for incremental annual increases in foreign Military Financing to Israel reaching $3 Billion a year by FY2012.
Aside from this, Israel seems to be doing all right out of the "War on Terror". According to Naomi Klein (The Shock Doctrine) The Israel Export Institute estimates that Israel has 350 corporations dedicated to selling homeland security products. Israel is the forth largest arms dealer in the world (larger than the U.K.). 60% of all exports are in technology, many which are security related - it seems that if peace broke out it would seriously curtail Israel's economy.
And lastly, I wasn't angry at Constance. I was merely extending an invitation to join the discussion in a more fulsome manner.

poirot - I'll ignore your deliberate baiting of course, but remind you of it.

Idon't think either Israel or the Palestinians should get any funding or support from anyone, don't you get that?

you keep seeing it from your adversarial, "if you don't agree with me then obviously you are hostile to my viewpoint" .. step away from it all and have a look.

neither participant can disconnect from the supporters, they have an obligation to the supporters to meet their (the supporters and cheersquads) objectives, which just complicates things further.

I do realize of course that if Israel disconnects, it will mean nuclear war when the Arab nations attack them the instant USA disconnects.

so be it .. inshallah, when that is over, then there will be peace - it seems the only way this can play out is for someone to ultimately strike so hard that nothing is in question - that's the way it has always been in this region .. they are so primitive.

rpg,

Dismissing the region as "primitive" shows a shallowness of perception on your part. Both the Jewish and Arab people possess ancient cultures and have much to share with the world.
Just in case you haven't noticed, those nations seen as more enterprising and progressive seem to be just as adept at carnage and bloodshed when it suits their agendas.

And from another OLO contributer:

"Israel wants to live in peace (wouldn't any sane people). They offered this to the people living in the area known as palestine in '60? Syria/Jordan/Egypt told them to stay as they would 'kick Israel into the sea'. 6 day war - they lost. The refugee camps were born, the above countries wouldn't accept them. U.N. (I think) paid $'s to Arrafat for every inhabitant of camps. Gaza, most were employed in Israel. No jobs now because Hamas keeps lobbing shells into Israel, from Lebanon before that!"

Somehow, I just can't help being extremely sceptical of the whole Palestinian cause.

poirot.. grasping for straws, it's so comical to see you desperately trying to find traction, stop the word games mate and look at what you're doing.

dear rpg,

I usually try and avoid slanging matches on OLO - and, as much as I'm beginning to warm to the prospect of sparring with you and the redoubtable Constance, I can't see that we are going to make any further progress.
So I s'pose that makes you the winner - congratulations!

Dear Constance,

How remiss of me not to acknowledge your extremely creative epithet in the guise of "Hamas Nazi" - Charmed, I'm sure.
Apart from that, I presume you have nothing to offer that springs from your own cognitive powers....just as well your name isn't "substance", because you don't appear to have any.

# To Gazzaboy

A Jew is a person who considers himself to be Jewish.

There are about 16 million people in the world who consider themselves Jewish. About 6.2 million currently live in Israel. They have come there from over 100 countries. They continue to come and settle in Israel from all parts of the world particularly when the Jew haters start to persecute them for no other reason than they are Jews. Russia is an example of the gross persecution of Jews that drove one million Jews to seek refuge in Israel in the 1980's. Persecution of Jews in Arab countries forced them to leave and settle in Israel following the 1948 War of Independence. Britain's restrictions on Jews entering Palestine between 1939-1945 resulted in hundreds of thousands of European Jews not being saved from their Nazi persecutors.

For what it is worth you can blame their Jewish ancestors for the Old Testament and the Ten Commandments and also the notion of one Supreme Being. You can thank the present generation for mobile phones,lap top computers,electric cars and a host of medical cures.

Jews also established the only sovereign State for the last 2500 years called Eretz Yisrael (until the creation of Israel in 1948). Its name was changed to Palestina by the Romans in an attempt to blot out any trace of Jewish existence after the Romans conquered the Jews and drove most of them into exile 2000 years ago.

Despite subsequent conquests and occupation by such diverse groups as the Byzantines, the Arabs, the Crusaders, the Mamlukes and the Ottomans the Jews always prayed three times a day to be ingathered to their bilblical and ancestral homeland from the far places of the world to which they had been scattered by these occupiers.

Their prayers were answered when the 51 Nations comprising the League of Nations unanimously agreed to the Jews reconstituting the Jewish national Home in Palestine in 1920 as part of a division of the conquered Ottoman territories that saw 99.999% being given to the Arabs and 0.001% being given to the Jews

Oh gosh, Poirot,

Do you think I have the luxury of time to get out the history books on Israel and Palestine? This subject has really only been of interest to me fairly recently because it seemed too complex to bother. Am concerned about various issues (current/world) but have to work and have my own interests. I like to read what members of the public have to say on forums, especially OLO, as I believe the public is far more honest than what you may read in the media - and also more succinct (little time). But still read wknd SMH. And then if possible - I do online research to verify new things I learn on OLO and then learn even more in googling. I also watch all else happening (and look at history) in the rest of the world, particularly Arab/Muslim countries at the same time while forming my own judgement on Palestine and Israel issue. I'm actually pretty nervous about it all. Did you watch Dateline tonight and read the viewers comments on its site? I actually haven't been making any comments on OLO for a long time (just reading) and I don't always have the time for ongoing chatfests and the quick responses expected. It can become too much of a commitment. I only make a comment when compelled to, whether supporting a contributor's comment or broadening discussion. But I think myself, rpg and many others with balanced and dispassionate judgement realise what the crux of the Palestinian issue really is.

Correction: Not chatfest, more opinefest.

David
If this idea(Jordan taking over Palestine)was coming from the Palestinians then I would be all for it. Since the Palestinian people reject the idea and its only promoters are people like you David, who have done most to cause the problems in the first place, I dont give it much credence beyond wishful thinking and self serving wishful thinking at that.

<<Doesn't Australia recognize the 21 Islamic Arab states and the 36 other Islamic states>>

I knew you were going to say that. I will be more clear.
Tell me which country we recognise as a "religious" entity? And dont say the vatican because that is hardly a "country" no matter what supposed autonomy it has within Italy.
The sauds? Undoubtedly a very theocratic country but we recognise it as a monarchy dont we? A foul weazelly way of avoiding the issue and making sure we dont turn off the oil tap for sure but it is not the same as recognising them as an "islamic state". We dont recognise Iran precisely because it is a religious theocracy where the mullahs have the reins of power. The same as Afghanistan under the Taliban was shunned by most of the world. To recognise Israel as a "Jewish state" would be hypocrisy in the extreme and against everything secular western society believes about the separation of church and state.
Also past israeli actions and policies lead me to believe that a "jewish state" would practice discrimination and intolerance against those citizens who were not jewish.

I would gladly recognise a democratic, secular Israel as a country started and mostly populated by jews and agree that they have every right to their country, and peace and security, IF Israel stopped the oppression and dispossession of the Palestinians and moved back within its recognised borders from before the wars of 1948. I dont hate jews or Israel. I hate religiously inspired injustice and oppression. I hate the powerful bullying and exploiting the weak. I hate guns against stones, apaches against homemade rockets and bulldozers against people homes

<<A Jew is a person who considers himself to be Jewish.>>

So they dont have to be religious or even believe in god/yawah?
Do they have to have any jewish heritage/blood?
Can people convert the same as most religions?
Is anyone restricted from becoming a jew?
Could anyone just say "I consider myself to be jewish" and that would be enough?

I really dont understand. Is being "jewish" a religion or a culture or an ethnic group or what? Its not like any other religion I have ever come across.

Mikk, I have previously considered your question, and arrived at the conclusion that Judaism is a national-movement.

Most religions are concerned with the relationship between an individual and God - but not so the Jewish religion, which is concerned with the relationship between the nation of Israel and God. Both the benefits of following the Jewish religion and the repercussions of not following it, are accrued by the nation, not by the individual.

National movements have all kinds of devices that hold them together. This may include a flag, an emblem, an anthem, a territory, an ethnicity, a royal lineage, a language, legends, a preferred religion, etc. In the case of Judaism, an important such device is the Jewish religion. However, the device - the part, must not be confused with the whole.

It is interesting to note, that within Jewish history, those who took religion "too seriously", out of its original national context, who actually sought to concentrate on its spiritual meaning and how it relates to individuals, were cast away. The most famous among them was even crucified as a result.

Your confusion stems from the fact that there is currently no concensus within the Jewish nation as to what should be the criteria for joining the nation.

poirot, you're stuck in this place where you see all reference to Israel and the Palestinians as a win/lose, this side or that side battle.

your language reflects this .. "I s'pose that makes you the winner - congratulations!"

I'm not looking for a victory, or a loss but I do see that people are expected to take a side, Palestinians or Israelis, then slug it out .. as most do here.

The Palestinians would be best served standing off, going to Jordan or where ever and getting on with life, you won't displace the Israelis and I just cannot understand why people try to - they are not going to move and they are powerful with powerful friends.

yes it's sad, but that's life for many people and always has been, and I'm sure the Palestinians would have done that if not for "sympathizers" who encouraged them to stay and fight or whine whichever works best.

By staying, where the incumbent is unmovable, the Palestinians are condemning generations to misery .. as a father, I just could not do that to my children, yet it is so ingrained in the psyche in this region.

Whether the jews have a right or not is beside the point, they will not move - so you have to if you are not powerful enough to change that.

See it is already happening. Anyone who can see the Palestinian side is now associated with Hamas.

And we wonder why the Israelis cannot come to a fair and equitable understanding or pull in the heads of some of the more radical settler and religous zealots.

Zealotry is not limited to one side in this debate and slinging insults to people who don't see the world from your view merely is evidence that 'right' is always on shaky ground and 'right' is not exclusively owned by Jews or Muslims.

Amicus, your defense of 'Might is Right' is pathetic. That's how the Israeli-Jews think. That's how the Americans think. That's how Hitler thought.

It's immoral people like you who have allowed the Israelis and the Americans to advance their imperial ambitions and brutalize many nations.

Stand up and take a bow!

David G. and his "imperial ambitions",

So if they come and tell you, "your grandfather this, your great-grandfather that, now you have no right to exist", would you not fight back? would you just leave your home and live in the gutters?

How imperial an ambition and how pervert is the desire to stay living where you were born and raised, in the home you built, together with your family, friends and community?

It is so sad that in the middle-east, in the vicinity of militant Islamists, such "pervert ambitions" cannot be realized without being armed to the teeth. It has nothing to do with Zionism. It can happen anywhere in the world, including Australia, wherever those Jihadists perceive a weakness, an opening of an opportunity for them to fulfil their imperial ambitions.

P.S. What makes it right for Israelis be punished for the imperialism of Americans?

To mikk

You state:

"If this idea(Jordan taking over Palestine)was coming from the Palestinians then I would be all for it. Since the Palestinian people reject the idea and its only promoters are people like you David, who have done most to cause the problems in the first place, I dont give it much credence beyond wishful thinking and self serving wishful thinking at that."

The following evidence shows that the idea is supported - not rejected - by the Palestinian Arabs.

1. The decision of the Jordanian Parliament comprised of equal numbers of Arab representatives from both sides of the Jordan River to unify the West Bank with Transjordan on the East Bank in 1950 and to change the name of the expanded country to "Jordan"

2. The continued unity of the West Bank and East Bank of the Jordan River until 1967 during which time the West Bank Arabs were Jordanian citizens - and continued to enjoy that status until 1988.

3. Article 2 of the 1964 PLO Covenant

4.Yasser Arafat in the New York Review of Books - 25 June 1987

"Jordan and Palestine until 1945 were one State actually...Before that Jordan was an emirate completely part of Palestine."

5.Abu Iyad - KUNA 19 December 1989

"You cannot make distinctions between a Jordanian and a Palestinian.

6. Palestinian Arab journalist Khalid Amayreh - Desertpeace - 18 May 2010

"the Jordanian and Palestinian peoples are the two most homogeneous and closest Arab peoples, given their ethnic, cultural and religious commonality. We are actually one people, as Arab clans on both sides of the River Jordan have one common ancestry.

This indisputable fact should debunk all the myths about any proclaimed intrinsic distinctiveness, let alone contradictions, between Jordanians and Palestinians.

It should also demolish all parochial ideologies such as territorial nationalism, namely exaggerated Palestinian and Jordanian nationalisms, ideologies that grow out of fanatical tribalism which Islam condemns as acts of Jahilyya or ignorance."

If you want any more such statements there are plenty to be found on the internet.

So mikk - are you now all for it?

david g, you might want to think about staying away from online forums, you don't seem to be able to cope with other people's opinions.

You can maintain the rage about Israel forever, it's not realistic and not helping anyone, except to remain angry.

If you apply the same hate to anyone who has taken over someone else's land at some stage, how far back do you go?

1,000 years?

Someone mentioned the Brits being invaded by the Normans, are they still going on about it?

As long as you want to pursue these land claims, you don't evolve in other areas, oh maybe except for gun skills, smuggling and media management .. great.

Drop the claims and either get on with the new owners, or move on.

David,

If Jordanians and Palestinians are one and the same as you claim, and given that Israel is at peace with Jordan, than the natural conclusion is that now, the war being over, Israel should return to Jordan (or Palestine, what does it matter then) ALL the territories it took in 1967, not just 90% of them. Actually, you don't even need negotiations - just leave!

There is one problem left, though: if Palestinians are truly Jordanian, then they should abide by the peace agreement between Israel and Jordan, they should respect their king, they should abandon terrorism, but apparently they don't - their CLAIM to be one and the same is simply not supported by ACTIONS.

I personally don't mind whether Palestinians are Jordanians or not: once they lay down their terrorism, they should get back their territories, in full. Whether they subsequently share it with Jordan or not is none of Israel's business.

Israeli Arabs will never reconize Eretz Israel's Jewish Soul,' which is why they never sing the national anthem.
The Arab offer guaranteeing of a peace based on the pre-1967 borders without a parallel guarantee of Eretz Israel's needed lebensraum now and in the future is useless. Arab's failure to accept first class citizenship and the right of return for only true citizens of Israel shows their bad faith.

Amicus, logic is not one of your strong suits. You argue in your comment that people shouldn't go back in time when basing their claims for land.

Yet the Israelis have gone back more than 2,000 years in their claim which involves stealing land from the Palestinians to make a racist state.

Buy a book on logic. You'll learn a lot and stop making silly statements.

davidg you can pick these things to bits if you like - you'll see earlier, that I said

"By staying, where the incumbent is unmovable, the Palestinians are condemning generations to misery" Key word is immovable .. OK?

Do I have to repeat myself, each time I post?

If the jews have the might to take and hold the land fine, good for them - if the Palestinians .. or anyone else can dislodge them, good for them - but that's been tried and the Israelis whooped them good.

So if you can't move the incumbent, move on, or should I repeat everything again?

"You'll learn a lot and stop making silly statements." applies equally to you I believe, if you read what people post and not just go off half cocked.

There's no need for you to repeat your silliness over and over, Amicus.

Your attitude that 'might is right' is held by many people in the world, especially Israelis and Americans. Hitler had a similar view.

Of course, people like you hold that view when they are part of the 'might' side of the equation. I know you would squeal like a stuck pig if someone or some nation came along and, being stronger, took everything you had and threw you out into the street.

It's easy to make grand statements about what other people should do when you're in a comfortable leather armchair!

Surely BOTH sides in the middle-east believe that "might is right".
Surely enough, BOTH claim they don't when they are on the receiving end of the stick - and that's a form of might too, the might of propaganda, the might of tears...

Now honestly David, would you not yourself have used your might against Israel and the USA if you could (without risking anything yourself)?

The relevant question which Amicus raises here is, why do generations upon generations of Palestinian refugees need to suffer so badly, especially those in Lebanon? Why do they need to be locked up in poverty and violence within refugee camps, why are they not allowed out into the world, to work, to study, to see the beach, to immigrate, to start having their own life: the Lebanese government holds those miserable twice-victim refugees as hostages, as part of their propaganda war against Israel. Do you support this inhumane use of might?

(http://refugees.resist.ca/document/situationlebanon.htm)

Yuyutsu, the Palestinians haven't moved on because they hope that, one day, they will be accorded justice and have their land returned to them while the racist interlopers, who came from countries all over the world, will be thrown out on their ears and forced to return to where they came.

I hope I live to see this day when one of the world's greatest injustices is reversed. Of course, this assumes the Israelis don't start dropping nukes on their neighbours and precipitate a nuclear holocaust which could destroy our world.

Amicus will be pleased if this happens given that he supports the mighty no matter how deranged they are!

To mikk

I think Yuyutsu has eloquently answered your queries on "who is a Jew". Your questions - and gaazaboy's - indicate how little you understand about Jews. Maybe that is why you both are so prejudiced.

Perhaps you can get a copy of the book "The course of modern Jewish history" by Howard Morley Sachar. This will help to give you a better understanding of who the Jews are.

You sure have a lot of reading to do.

To Yuyutsu

Resolution 242 requires Israel to withdraw to secure and recognized boundaries - not from 100% of the West Bank.

There were no borders in 1967 between Jordan and Israel - only armistice lines.

Secure and recognized boundaries between Jordan and Israel will involve division of sovereignty in the West Bank.

500000 Jews now living in the West Bank since 1967 are not going to pack up and go. Their right to live there is enshrined in Article 6 of the Mandate for Palestine and article 80 of the UN Charter - rights the Jews exercised until driven out by Jordan in 1948.

Once the boundaries are negotiated and settled the majority of West Bank Arabs will automatically once again become Jordanian citizens as they were from 1950 -1988. They then respected their King with the notable exception of Black September in 1970 when Arafat tried to overthrow the King and got booted out. If some of them still wish to continue this struggle they can expect similar retribution from the current King.

You conclude:

"I personally don't mind whether Palestinians are Jordanians or not: once they lay down their terrorism, they should get back their territories, in full. Whether they subsequently share it with Jordan or not is none of Israel's business."

Yuyutsu - you still fail to understand

1. The territories presently belong to no one - either Palestinian Arabs,Jordanian Arabs or Jews.

2. The two sovereign states to have continuously occupied the West Bank for the last 62 years are Jordan (1948-1967) and Israel (1967-2010). These two states are currently the sovereign rulers of 94% of the Mandate territory of Palestine - Jordan (77%) and Israel (17%). The West Bank and Gaza make up the remaining 6%.

3. The Palestinian Arabs have blown a unique opportunity to acquire the major part of that remaining 6% - with Jordan's acquiescence - after 17 years of fruitless negotiations.

4. Its time to invite the Jordanians to negotiate to restore as far as possible the status quo that existed in 1967 at the outbreak of the Six Day War.

David G.,

"the Palestinians haven't moved on because..."

At least in Lebanon, it is because they are not allowed to move on.
In other countries, some have in fact moved on.

It seems that revenge is of more importance to you than the well-being of those Palestinians you claim to speak for.

David Singer,

We've been there before and I'm not going to waste again my time and 350 words on petty legalistic details. Suffice that if you own something, you have the full right to gift it to others: if you cannot, then you don't really own it. Even if unsure whether something belongs to you or not, you always maintain the right to renounce it (which Jordan wisely did!).

While not admitting that the applicable law actually gives Israel any rights over the West-Bank, the idea that one must seek every legal avenue to the technical letter of the law in order to maximize their territory, is sickening. The 1967 war was catastrophic for Israel, internally, morally, it poisoned it from within. It is in Israel's best interest to reverse and undo the effects of that miserable war.
Sadly but understandably, Israel has to wait until security-conditons allow it to get rid of the west-bank, but once conditions allow, it should withdraw from its last centimeter. Should there be a friendly border with Jordan, then the security issue is solved, so 100% should be returned.

Should we all shed crocodile tears for those 500000?
They all knew from the start what they enter into, they all knew that Israel will not be there forever. Half of them are hard-core criminals and dangerous Messianic fanatics, while the other half comprises of ordinary Israelis with housing problems whom the Israeli government used their poverty to lure into those territories.
The poor ones should receive financial compensation and will very happily pack and move back to their own country, while the criminals ought to be punished, although perhaps they may be allowed to stay where they are as Palestinian or Jordanian subjects: in retrospect, perhaps Israel would do better without them!

davidg, you're becoming hysterical, you need to take a break from these sites.

When people disagree with you, or have a different opinion, you seem to then start extrapolating your feelings onto them.

I didn't say "might is right", you did, I said, when the incumbent is too powerful, then move on - I didn't say Israel is right in what they do, I have no opinion on that .. please take a look at my posts - you have invented my "opinion".

yuyutsu has you nailed - this is all about revenge for you.

If you could drive the Israelis into the sea would you? Yes of course, "might is right" .. yes?

"Of course, people like you hold that view when they are part of the 'might' side of the equation. I know you would squeal like a stuck pig if someone or some nation came along and, being stronger, took everything you had and threw you out into the street"

no, you're wrong, again you reflect your own anger in your assumptions of what other people think.

I'd move on, if the enemy is so powerful as to do that, I'd move on, I wouldn't be happy, but then again I'm probably more pragmatic about what life is about - it's not about pain and misery, it's about quality of life.

Your support of the Palestinians seems to depend on them being as angry as you are, what happens if they suddenly come to a peace agreement with Israel?

Will you still be angry, still want revenge, all on your own? I suspect you would. So that's it for me, you can't have a conversation with someone who flames you and ramps up the anger because of a differing opinion, (get help davidg).

The singer says to Mikk: 'Perhaps you can get a copy of the book "The course of modern Jewish history" by Howard Morley Sachar. This will help to give you a better understanding of who the Jews are.'

There's no need to plow through a heap of self-serving Judeo-babble. Just speak to any Palestinian who has existed under the boot-heel of the Israeli Jews.

They'll tell you everything you need to know about Israeli Jews but you'll need to have a few hours because the story of Palestinian suffering and deprivation at the hands of their brutal, cruel occupiers is long and tragic!

"By their works ye shall know them!"

To Amicus

David G is an open and avowed Jew hater. He is entitled to his view and the best response is to bring him out of the closet and let his foul bile and vitriol be exposed.

To Yuyutsu

You state:

"Should we all shed crocodile tears for those 500000?
They all knew from the start what they enter into, they all knew that Israel will not be there forever. Half of them are hard-core criminals and dangerous Messianic fanatics, while the other half comprises of ordinary Israelis with housing problems whom the Israeli government used their poverty to lure into those territories.
The poor ones should receive financial compensation and will very happily pack and move back to their own country, while the criminals ought to be punished, although perhaps they may be allowed to stay where they are as Palestinian or Jordanian subjects: in retrospect, perhaps Israel would do better without them!"

You have blotted your copybook.You are starting to sound like David G and mikk in making wild and unsubstantiated statements without any evidence to back your assertions.

Perhaps you can refer me to the source which enables you to make the above comment. Or are you just letting your imagination get the better of you?

I notice that the Singer, in his cunning way, has not made mention of Greater Israel during his duplicitous ramblings which continuously attempt to paint Israel as pure white and the Palestinians as pure black.

No, he steers well clear of the concept of Greater Israel because it exposes what Israel's real plan is for the region: that is to take all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates by military force.

Israel first has to get rid of the Palestinians. Next is to destroy Iran which is the only threat that faces nuclear-armed nation (of course, Iraq has already fallen to imperial Israel's ally, imperial America).

I would urge all intelligent readers to Google the term 'Greater Israel'. It will reveal what Israel is really up to, its imperial plans for the region which involve swallowing up many Arab nations.

With this knowledge in mind, then the time-wasting propaganda which Singer continuously espouses will be seen for the clever smoke-screen that it is!

Yes, little Israel, in alliance with America, has big plans, plans that will eventually push the world into a nuclear war!

David G.,

No doubt that Palestinians are suffering, the question is just why should they keep contributing to their own suffering. I am not saying that they are solely responsible, but a large part of their suffering is, and always been, due to their own contribution, as well as pressure from other Arabs to keep sacrificing themselves.

David Singer,

"You have blotted your copybook"

Are you a teacher or something? I have no need for your marks of approval.

I am not going to refer you to my sources because that would breach the privacy of people that I know personally, people who are in this sad predicament of having to live in the West-Bank and Eastern Jerusalem due to housing difficulties, people who did not want to be there in the first place, who felt guilty about it from the beginning and still feel remorseful about it, but went there anyway because they have families to support, people with low economic resources who are waiting eagerly for the day when Israel withdraws so they can receive their compensation and live in their own country again.

About half of the settlers are in this category. I guess you are not complaining about my suggestion that they should receive financial compensation, or are you?

The other half are there for ideological reasons, specifically in order to bring their Messiah in accordance with the teachings of Rabbi Kook. According to their belief, their presence in the territories encourages the Messiah to come and when he does, he will conquer and enforce a Jewish rule over half the world. He will also dispose of democracy and instill a harsh religious regime over Israel, including corporal and capital punishments for anyone violating the Jewish religious laws.

Of course I don't believe their mystical nonsense, but because they do, it's just a matter of time before they enthrone one of them as "Messiah" and allow him to lead them in a violent Jewish-religious revolution, overthrowing the secular-democratic institutions, then waging war with all neighbouring countries, most likely a nuclear one. Is this not criminal enough?

Yuyutsu

I am not a school teacher but if I were I would fail you outright.

Pulling out the old chestnut of "anonymous sources" is a bit rich. Whilst you persist with this tack no credence can be given to your wild and unsubstantiated comments. Any schoolteacher will tell you that.

Your credibility has vanished down the drain.

Even worse you now go on to state:

"Of course I don't believe their mystical nonsense, but because they do, it's just a matter of time before they enthrone one of them as "Messiah" and allow him to lead them in a violent Jewish-religious revolution, overthrowing the secular-democratic institutions, then waging war with all neighbouring countries, most likely a nuclear one. Is this not criminal enough?"

So 250000 Jews you have slandered in your previous post when you stated -

"Half of them are hard-core criminals and dangerous Messianic fanatics..."

- are really not yet hard core criminals but will become hard core criminals when they act as you believe they will sometime in the future.

You are starting to sound as irrational,Jew hating and Jew baiting as David G and mikk with every new post.

What about Jewish plans for Greater Israel, Singer?

Cat got your tongue?

David G,

"What about Jewish plans for Greater Israel, Singer?"

Please don't blame all the Jews for the attitude of a minority.

I was just referring to those 250000 criminal settlers, which bring shame on Israel and all other Jews - now David Singer blames me for hating all Jews because of those 250000, while you in fact hate all Jews because of them. It would help for you both to keep things in proportion.

David Singer,

According to your logic, Hezbollah are also innocent: while they amass 10000s missiles over Israel's northern border, they "are really not yet hard core criminals but will become hard core criminals when they act as you believe they will sometime in the future".

Yuyutsu, just because the Singer keeps repeating the libelous lie that I hate Jews (it's a common, pathetic Jewish tactic when anyone questions their actions) does not make it true.

But I do hate what the Israeli Jews are doing to the Palestinians. And I do hate the imperial plans that the Israeli Jews have to create Greater Israel, plans which make what they've done to the Palestinians for decades look like a Sunday School picnic!

Many Jews are very cunning, masters of deceit. They don't declare their elitism, their racism, their contempt for non-Jews to the world. They hide it and pretend to be one of us when it suits. Then once they've got themselves into position of power, or made themselves very rich, or created a powerful army, you find out what they're really all about.

Investigate Greater Israel. It exposes the underlying Jewish plan for the M.E. Millions will die!

Yuyutsu

Hating 250000 Jews by classifying them as "hard core criminals" - when they have committed no crime - is Jew hatred and racial vilification of the worst kind.

Do you think that millions of religious Jews who live in America, England,France and Australia with identical religious views to the 250000 who inhabit the West Bank are also hard core criminals?

You then state:

"According to your logic, Hezbollah are also innocent: while they amass 10000s missiles over Israel's northern border, they "are really not yet hard core criminals but will become hard core criminals when they act as you believe they will sometime in the future".

Wrong Yuyutsu.

Your perverted logic - like your common sense - is really starting to fail you.

Hezbollah has already committed thousands of intentionally indiscriminate attacks on Israel's civilian population causing death, injury and trauma. They are acknowledged terrorists and murderers - gutless cowards who hide behind the skirts of Lebanon's civilian population. They have a track record of proven criminal activity against innocent civilians - both Jewish and Arab. They are hard core criminals of the most repulsive and reprehensible kind.

How can you possibly seek to equate 250000 religious Jews who have not yet committed any criminal activity on your own admission with a murderous outfit like Hezbollah that has been murdering and terrorising for years?

I hope you are prepared to listen and appreciate the racial incitement that you are engaging in and terminate it.

As for David G he continues to rant and rave with ever increasing ferocity only exposing himself further as a true disciple of Hitler. I wonder when he is going to get on to the Jews controlling the media, the banks and everything else in the world. Talking to such people is pointless. Exposing them is all one can do. He hides behind the cloak of anonymity - too gutless to reveal his identity.

Anyone who wants six million Jews to fold up the Jewish State and clear out to America is obviously off the planet.

David G.,

Like you, I hate what the/xxx/SOME Israeli Jews are doing to the Palestinians: I also hate what the/xxx/SOME Palestinians are doing to the Israelis.

Only SOME of the Israeli Jews have imperial plans (which I hate just as yourself) or think about Greater Israel. By claiming that they all do, you in fact blame my family as well, none of which has similar aspirations and none of which have personally wronged Palestinians or contempt them. This will not be tolerated.

David Singer,

"Do you think that millions of religious Jews who live in America, England,France and Australia with identical religious views to the 250000 who inhabit the West Bank are also hard core criminals?"

No. Almost every human, at some point or another in their life, has an urge to do something really bad. Nevertheless, most of us, being reasonable and normative citizens, are able to control this urge and refrain from acting upon it. Those 250000 have crossed their bounds, the others did not. It is true that religious Jews pray for their Messiah to come, but as long as it remains just that, prayer, it can be seen as a legitimate method of anger-management.

Both Hezbollah and the settlers have committed hineous criminal activities in the past, to whatever extent they had the power to commit. What both plan and actively prepare for, if they are allowed to proceed, is of new orders of magnitude.
No need to repeat the crimes of Hezbollah. As for the settlers, besides their very presence as civilians in a military zone, which is a crime, they continuously harass the Arabs around them, take their homes, chop their trees, burn their crops, limit their movement, take their water, etc. with the express intent of driving them out of the land. By provoking and alienating the local population, they bring reciprocal terrorism into Israel as well as force the Israeli army to suffer casualties while protecting them.

I do not judge people by their race - only by their actions and intentions.

The Singer, sounding menopausal, becomes ever more shrill and insulting. A typical lawyer, he really can't handle people disagreeing with him.

But it's interesting to note that he will not engage on the topic of Greater Israel. He won't because that would expose his little scheme to con readers of OLO that Israel is innocent of brutality and genocide and that it really wants the Palestinians to have their own State.

Nothing could be further from the truth! Israel wants all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates.

Google 'Greater Israel' and find out the truth!

David G.,

"Nothing could be further from the truth"

Sorry, but this is only a half-truth.

"Israel wants all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates"

The truth is that Israel is the most divided and fragmented society in the world. Stating that "Israel wants xyz" is sheer nonsense - whatever xyz is, there will be some Israelis in favour and some against.

Israel is in this predicament because Hitler never cared what people thought or believed, whether they were good or bad, nice or ugly, religious or secular - he defined Judaism on a crude (and doubtful at that) basis of blood-line and that's it. As a result, all kinds of people who were defined by Hitler as Jews, flocked to Israel for safety, people who would otherwise never share the same roof together.

Now you must make a stand: Singer claimed that you are "a true disciple of Hitler". You may either acknowledge it by continuing to make blanket statements about Jews and Israelis, or refute it by making distinctions, observing the complexity of the situation and looking at Jews and Israelis as individuals.

So Singer you agree with Yuyutsu's characterisation of jews?

From what I understand from his explanation is that jews say they believe in god but really they dont.
They (ab)use their god and their religion to further their earthly wealth and progress in any way possible. They use their god to justify harming others. But they dont actually believe?
It sounds like more of an ethnic group than a religion or a race.
Seems eerily familiar.
Seems a lot like the mafia.
Acts like it too.

I have no respect for any religion but at least the moslems and the christians actually believe the garbage they are taught. You people are just hypocrites of the worst order.
If this is actually the way jews see their religion then how the hell did they con the world into thinking it was so important to give them back the land their god supposedly gave them. Either they are a pious people following their gods orders or they are miscreants misrepresenting themselves and fooling the whole world.
I could understand the world helping a downtrodden religious group suffering unfair persecution but not giving a particular ethnic group some other peoples land. The ONLY reason Israel exists is because the jews said that was their god given land. Now it turns out they diss their god like hes some sort of fairy and only bring him out to fool and coerce the goyim.

It's a pointless exercise arguing about one side being right and the other side being wrong.

They are BOTH wrong.

BOTH sides have committed horrific atrocities against civilians.

They are BOTH wrong.

David Singer -so anybody can be a jew by simply wanting to be jewish (whatever that means)!
Interesting. So that confirms, along with the obvious absense of any semitic heritage in the mass of jews, that the constant cry on any form of criticism relating to anything jewish being "anti-semitic" is just nonsense.
You can make a start yourself by referring to anti-jewish/zionist criticism as being just that and help stop the slander on those true members of the semitic race who are certainly not ethnically semitic jews and are offended by the cry of 'anti-semitic' whenever a jew is offended.
As mentioned in my previous piece, which you failed to answer, just how many racially genetic jews actually exist today?