Dear OUG,
I think you make a good point that the comment regarding a flat earth was red herring material. Who’s ever taught that either inside or outside of Christendom?

In your own style, this following point was also well made.

“bugsy/quote...<<..that the genetic diversity/of the entire human race could be contained..in just two individuals..is adorable>>yeah..but is it believable.

i guess my point is..evilooonytrists...believe..that all living..was contained..in the first living cell...

i find that deceitfully/adorable”

Bugsy sceptically describes it ‘adorable’ that two healthy human beings (Adam and Eve) could be sufficiently rich in their genetic make up to complement the diversity in human variation that we now see on the planet.

For this he is sceptical. Yet he swallows whole the idea that a single cell organism (originating from who knows where) is perfectly capable of supplying all of the richness, in not only people but every other living thing, that we now see.

The solution that Bugsy (who actually is following the standard evolutionary paradigm) takes to this conundrum is the hope of mutation, that is, copying errors (like typos) in genetic transmission, to bring about new genetic information to be passed on to following generations.

It reminds me of the game of Chinese Whispers. Imagine a number of people in a room. The first person whispers a phrase to the second, who then attempts to pass it on faithfully and accurately to the third, and in turn to the fourth, and so forth. We might start with a phrase such as, “From whence hast thou come?” During the passage of information, errors are added to the phrase which becomes more and more corrupted.

Imagining that mutations are capable of providing the variety of life we see on this planet is beyond believing that starting with the phrase “From whence has thou come?” we could end with the complete works of Shakespeare.

In the context of respecting the differences between religion and science, Let's look at Dan again, shall we?

Dan contends that no mutations are beneficial, despite acknowledging elsewhere he is no expert.

His reference is a single phrase from Carl Sagan: "Mutations (errors in copying the genetic sequence) are, on the whole, not creative agents. If anything they are quite degenerate or destructive".

This quote from within a book on the topic of evolution that makes it plain (as if we didn't know) that when Sagan said "on the whole" he specifically did not mean "all". A few sentences later he emphasises that beneficial changes are "rare". I believe Sagan was aware of the difference beween "rare" and "nonexistent".

I believe Dan has mentioned that he works in producing bible translations. Probably other religious materials as well.

It is a widely documented aspect of translation that it is difficult to translate subtle nuances of meaning, of prcise definition or emotional weighting. and I can think of no fields where that is more critical than in religious or philosophical publishing, and science, of course.

Dan, an english speaker, reading english, who claims some preofessional role in religious literature *couldn't be bothered* to warmly and accurately transmit the clearly intended meaning of the author he quotes. This to create the illusion that his position was not unsound.

I believe this is representative not only of Dan's personal dedication to genuine discussion of religion (or science) but of what is regarded as acceptable practice within the religious marketing organisation.

I propose that the "respect" accorded religion should reflect that they lie shamelessly about things which can be easily checked in the hope that this or that listener won't check. I cannot imagine they restrain themselves when checking is impossible.

Taking a mug because you *can* is not very christian. The fundy churches that do and the profitable market in self-serving creationist merchandise deserve nothing but to be despised, like thieves.

Of course, all translations and interpretations are "sustained by Prayer". Reassuring!

Rusty.

yes/a neat-trick/rusty

you sprouk..on about dna..then delve..into stone..lol

fossils/..dont have dna...as you-should/know
so anything related to dna..in the same-breath/as fossils..is deceit

so who/..is trying to be..a clever-boy then?

by the by...so what...you talk of genus..as if/im making..that up..yet its you/using creative-writing..distorting-joinder's

[you should/be..aware of..pheno-type..as opposed to/..geno-type..]
yet fail-to explain/to the ignorant/masses..
that fossils..at best/..can only be/judged by looks-like..
ie..phenotype..not genotype..but even that/seems beyond your ken

im not sure/if your..seriously claiming/now..to be a docter/and a researcher/scientist...lol..based-on a few experiments..as a student

so let-see/some of your..PUBLISHED-THESIS..'s...lol
but..im sure/thats just further/..bying-into..your pretentious-ness

but if/you got-it...flaunt-it

if you..dont/..dont-be..making claim..you cant prove..or validate
i will/call you-out..on it

...its put-up..or shut-up time..
im over/..these so called..'experts'
hopping-on..their high-horse..fooling..the imbisiles/great/unwashed..

you might-like/to..take destractions..like catylists...but thats-not proof..of our beginnings..no matter/how much..you chose to spin-it

like your QUOTE...<<..I propose/that..the.."respect"..accorded religion..should reflect>>>..i will add..the same/for quango/science...deception/.by any-other name..is still..fraud

you claim/science..science/claims..repeatability..SO REPEAT..!
claims..faulsifyables..SO PRESENT/THEM..!
claims/to know..tells children..THEY KNOW...!
yet..clearly dont/know..

yes..they have..a THEORY
have a PREMISE...
have believers..who believe...science DOES..know..lol

yet science..DONT KNOW..!

<<..that/they..lie shamelessly/..about things..which can/be easily checked..in the hope/that..this/or..that listener..won't check.>>>APPLIES SPECIFICLLY/TO..SCIENCE..WORSE..they hid/info...under..SUBSCRIBER/only...lol

evolving/science-deciete..SOLD/TO..CHILDREN..IN SCHOOLS
its TAUGHT...AS-FACT..but is..far/from..fact

<<I cannot/imagine/they restrain..themselves..when checking/is impossible.>>>..i can/not bear..how-these..scienc/pretenders/decievers..lol scientrysts..claiming..TO KNOW...yet dont..cant/even present..re-search...lol

who/cant prove/replicate..
or even/name the fist-life
let-alone..evolve...it..lol

or reveal/a..single/change of genus..
evolving/into other..genus..either/on the record..of off-it

SCIENCE_SECRETS..can-be..so blatent..
as to sell..their theory...as fact..

yes..i/too fail/to see..how they...<<can be so blind>>...either

<<Taking..a mug/because you..*can*..is not/very..christian>>...
taking a theory/..selling it as fact/lol..science..isnt very scientific...its..a joke...lol

<<The fundy-churches/that do..and/the..profitable-market..in self-serving merchandise..deserve nothing/but..to be despised,..like thieves.>>

as do/the FRAUDS..claiming science..stealing//gods-own..from good/god

when all/they got/is..science/method..that reveals..NOTHING

who sell/the same..delusions/based on peers..censor-ship..
to the/ignorants..gods/own..

yes..i agree/../lets castrate/chemiclly..
those/frauds..before they..further devolve..from..the fact's

one thing/..hated in all realms..are decievers
of all-sorts..!

Dan, I think for half of that, you may have been addressing Rusty? I'm not sure, because you sort slipped in and out of what one or other of us was supposed to be saying, but only addressed me.

The point of the Mitochondrial Eve is not that there was one woman, but that in fact there very likely to be thousands of them, from which we are all descended. The inheritance of mitochondria from mother to child means that we all have appeared to come from one. When a woman only gives birth to males, the line is broken.

I do think it is adorable that you believe that the genetic diversity of the human race could be contained within two humans and still believe in creationism. The diploid nature of humans means that at most one pair of human beings can contain 4 alleles for the one gene. If that were the case, then Adam and Eve would be heterozygous for all alleles at all genes, which almost certainly means that at least one of them was black and the other would most likely be kind of Asian looking. But of course that is not the case, as there are many alleles for most human genes.

The wonderful thing about evolution, is that it does not have to invoke this sort of ridiculousness. Complex variation can come from simple starting points. The variation of the human race could possibly come from two people or a single cell, but only under evolutionary theory, where species can evolve and accumulate variation.

Since mutation exists (it's observed&measured), and under creationist theory mutations are bad/neutral, all creation theory offers is a slow degeneration of our genome with each passing generation. A devolution of the species. Considering the massive amount of variation out there, and what must be a high mutation rate (how many generations since Noah?), it's only a matter of time before we're all half toothless banjo pluckin' hillbillies. A bit difficult to explain the Flynn effect though. Anyways I'm sure God will destroy the universe before we get that far...

mytro.con-dr-iael...eve...

ODE/..to the..silent/rusty-cath-hater..

i heard/..a poem,last-night

about professors..professing to prophescy..while/i..was sleeping..
so will/try to re-collect..the gist..[of..that/from..the heavens..or the hells..which..they/play-fun..at]

the prr-rot-tell-ising..professor..pro-rot-ill-ising/that they profess..to believe//or believe to know...

[yes/it's a..long-title..thus i/abriviated..it..some-what]

what can/be worse..than a rusty..cath-hater..
APE_prosi-little-ising/..professing to/be..a professor/
confessing..to be a dr..or worse a..door/to..the my-mine-mini-stry-sty....of e-volution

or/..professing/confessing..to be/messing../menacing..with gods creation..by diss-solving..the cell/mem-brain..in acid..

then putting/the result..into an..electric-tourture gell..
to sepperate..the goats/sell-u-lair..from/the sheep..sell-u-lair..base's..and..even..unboundedly/unbonding..god-joined../base-pairs

..or the/big rna..
from the little-ised dna..
fragments..a.l.l....

then calling/the fragmented mess..proof..

.lol..[lol..means laughed/out-loud]..

and how..they did/laugh..
it sounded..almost demonic..
so may-have..come..via hell

but eventually..the po-oe-try...returned..to voice

what can/be worse..
than a professor..professing to know..
but mearly doing/their protelising...pro-testing..that god did sew

an epostle/..ape/lost-ile..

evo-living- by-possesion..
[of the process..of evil-loot-ion,..]

under the obsession..of ape-hostile-ism

[hey this might/have come..from your own...lol..,

how funny/would that be...lol]

eventually calm/..was restored..
and the poet's/professor-roast..continued

ode..
[short..for oh-dear..dead/or deaf...
its the same-thing..aparently]

thee/who..acclaims..to be teacher..
preacher-ing to children..of evolving-facts that decieve...that only god could/did and continues...to concieve

only sold to believers...[the diss-believers]..
following their decievers...who thus get further decieved...
as their apostilite..further concieves../that which decieves..

yet still the decieved/../believed

is it true..that they profess..?

the mess..they think they professs

says-i..; that cell-u-lare/mem-brain-is..made of only lipid/
sipid.lip-id..fats..when fats basics..are not to be found..in any base/pair's.of dna/rna..nor chromsonal..fragments

oh what rot...the rort..of evolution/
by peer decree;long-chain molicules...or mud bubbles..no less..did the professing/..messing professor..possesed/process

lol...evolution/solution...keep it simple no less/

ode to the proffiteeers..throw-ing up..their next guess..['t?]

ode/to the professor..pro-fesing his trade...his evolving thesis..is such a charade...based on developing cell-walls..of mud..or of clay-bubbles of muck

then disolving the mud...lol..with acid..
to make the muck go away
as the acid..they used/then..
works its magic..on them..now..

as we..disolve..their..protein..to get to..their..chromosanal-base/pair..we shall/reveal to them the truth..of their theory

then put the fragments of their creation..into the slime-pits..to segregate...then lets see who dares profess to children...

come on professor..its not yet too late

ok..by this time/i was sure..this..was from hell

and didnt want to know more of their..[those prefessings/..fate]
so beware of..what your profesing..to whom..mate

its never too late

anyhow..lets hear/from bugsy..talking about..1000/eve's..lol..<<from which..we/are all..descended.>>lol

bugsy/quote..<<there/very-likely..to be..lol..thousands/of.them>>>lol-..likely...yes...
and just as..un-likely...lol..

this is..EVE_I-DENSE?

<<The/..inheritance/of mitochondria..from mother-to child..>>GIRL?CHILD...<means/that..we all..have/*appeared...>>lol<<to come from..one.>>lol

<<When a woman/only..gives-birth/to males,..the line is broken.>>>funny how..with/family lines..that have/no femail..passing it-on...just dont-even..rate a mention...lol...

are we only/..getting..part of..the story?

<<The diploid/nature..of humans..means-that.at-most..
one pair/of..human beings..can contain..4 alleles/..for/the one-gene.>>yep..your/certainly..correct..

but eve...mitro.con-dry-all..decent/has only two...
your wanting..your cak/cake....then eating-it..too

<<..The wonderful/thing..about evolution,/is-that..it does-not..have to invoke..this..sort-of/..ridiculousness.>>..

ooops/../sorry i deleted..it before/..i realised..you thought/..what you posted..was absurd...too

<<Complex variation/can..come-from/simple..starting-points.>>yes..EVE-ry-thing..has a CAUSE..

the cause may/be..simple..but not-as..simple..as a mud/bubble..pretenting to-be..a cell..

or random-chemicals..pretending to-be..rna/dna...
or dust..pretending to-be..mitracondria...lol

<<The variation/of..the human-race>>>there/is..another loaded..word

RACE,,,ie..like survival-of..the fattest

ie/..one winner...thats totally delusional/but amply demon-strates..the..di-lema..of word-play..that even/uses...EVE..for its own..A-thiest-ic/..trickery

..note the/.buzz-word...could...lol..
thats some..evi-dense..lol<<could possibly/...>>lol..

possably..this is..SCIENCE..?

..COULD/possably...lol..<<..come/from..two people..or..a single_cell,>>>..talk about..same/compared..to same...lol

<<but only/under..evolutionary[-PEER..presure-]theory,..where/species can..evolve..and*..accumulate-variation.>>

a/thing..NOT_PROVEN..and highly-suspect..unless we..stretch/credulity

ie..use trickery/spin..to paper-over..the_GAPS

<<Since mutation/exists..(it's observed&measured)>>..BUT..it has/no egsistance..in/of...it-self...!

it/is..a error..of/the process..
ie..an/..accident/fluke..not science...that/distorts..which is...and induces..other flaws...but none/of..these flaws..are a-creative additive..to/what was,

[you cant/make life..from a/sows-ear..no matter/how many..mutations

yes..we can/observe/accidents..

<<and/under..creationist-theory/mutations..are bad/neutral,>>well present/..just one fully benificient..

one..that/led to..a change of/genus..
[thats..the*..huge-lie*]

see/..we need..to be able-to..match alle-lies
no match..no/..next generation..get it?

<<all creation-theory..offers..is a/slow degeneration..of..our genome with/each..passing generation...A devolution..of the-species.>>>

and all..the EVI-dense..evolutionists/have..is ridiculing..our exposures..of..their flaws..in..their THEORY..

<<Considering..the massive-amount/of variation-out/there,..and what must-be..a high mutation-rate>>>

one in/..two hundred..cell divisions..
but where/..you taking..this?

<<(how many/generations..since Noah?)>>lets-not..get BACK/..to religion...dont you got/science...adam?..

lets get/back-to..mitro-eve

<<it's only/..a matter/..of time>>...lol<<..before we're-all/..half toothless banjo-pluckin'/hillbillies.>>>

yes science/is...ahead of..the de-generation...lol..
but..is this/..your proof?..

yet more/imagry..in lue-of fact?

<<A bit..difficult/to explain..the Flynn..effect..>>

he had/an issue with sex..he was insecure..
and over corrected his insecurities..by womanising...

there i done..the errol/flyn-affect for you..

now whats your POINT..?

<<Anyways..I'm sure/God will destroy..the universe..before we get that far>>..

wow thats..cetainly..authoritive/believable/evidential...lol

as usual/nothing..to rebut

because nothing..was revealed

lol