Dear Dan,

I think what is interesting about the original topic is that it has shown segmentation present among theists. Some are willing to accept what science has shown, while others have not accepted. In this frame, it would seem that Believers hold their scriptures differently: I feel this thread has shown that.

Another thrust to the thread, would be the idea of a creation agent that is not classical physics, yet not a god. Of course, here, I refer to QM and physics not known us. As I have said before, if someone two hundred years ago found a quartz watch, they would astonished by the accuracy, yet their science would not allow them to de-engineer it. Likewise, our science does not know everything and perhaps never will. However, amazing discoveries, as cited throughout OLO, do challenge the idea of a divine inventor.

Although, drawing very different conclusions, George and I think more alike, than say George and you and OUG.

To where does the fundamentalist move, should particle physics finally explain the origin of the universe and biology plus QM explain life? Someone like our friend George can say reality is all the dimensions + 1, where +1 is God, yet still not take any of religions' (plural) scriptures to be manifestly true.

you/might ha/ha...have heard of an ASSTROMONY/EXPERT..
who dares to speculate..on a well rebutted aspect..of biology..

to/wit..the'recapitulation/theory..
dreamed-up..in darwinian-ages/by ernst/haeckel

it has long been an embarisment..to thinking scientists..
for many years..and rebutted by many of his...'own'

his biogenetic[idea/of]law..asserts the human embryo...'re-enacts..the vairious/stages..of past mutation...

[i know/it was taught to me..and im sure it was one..
of them..so-called proofs..fed you you/lot..as CHILDREN

apparently..were/supposed to-see our ancestry..
when the baby..goes through the so called gill-stage..the so-called/tail..stage..the protzoan/stage..etc

but lets focus on this..so called gill/stage..
note,,THE GROOVES..ARNT GILL/slits..

and dr/duene-gish dared to ask..';if these are neither..gills...
nor slits...how then..can they be called..gill slits..'

gill added..'these structures...actualy develop/into various glands..the lower/jaw..and structures..inside the inner-ear

in other words..haeckel...WAS FOOLED..by 'looks-like'..
just like the stone-fosil/experts..are fooled by looks-like..[ie phenotype]..see previous postings

even worse..haeckel...actually faked-evidence..to make his case
just/..like the fossil/fools..faked their proofs..[as listed before]

he was actualy/..tried..in a court...yet did not loose his right to pro-fess..
[thus discrediting..all professing..lies/like..evolution/of genus

his theory..has.been discredited..for OVER 50 years..
but still..naive/poorly trained..lol...dr's/scientists..
even other..professing/pro[paid]..frauds..pedle..the deceits/as fact

..pro-fess-ors..use this/..recapulation-theory..
teaching it/as fact..[ol rust/cath-eater..might well/know of the sins..of which..i speak

anyhow..singer ripped his/theory..to shreds..
in his histry of biology...

stating...'for a generation..and more...he perveyed..to the semi-eduated..public-fool..oops[sorry]..'public'..

.."a/system..of the crudest philosophy...
if a mass of contra-dictions..can be called..by that name...
he FOUNDED...something..that..wore..the habiliments,..of a religion''...lol

..'of which..HE was its high-priest.....and the con-gregation..[of course/this latest-head..is now dorkins]..lol..

anyhow..the damage..was enormous

walter/bock..[biological science/columbia]..

:''the biogenetic/law...has become so deeply..intrenched..in biological/thought..it cannot be weeded-out...in spite-of..its having demonstraited,..,to be totally wrong..by numerouse scollars..

[but not pro-fessors?]..
who/blindly..con-tinue..professing/guessing]

gavin/de-beer...:'seldom..has/an ASSERTION...like that of haeckels...'theory of recapitulation'..
facile/plausable/tidy..DONE SO-MUCH..HARM TO SCIENCE...lol

encyclopedia/britania..says of/the theory..
its..in error

danson;..'intelectually/barren'

dr/wr/thompson..the biogenetic-law..as/
a proof/of evolution..is value-LESS

keith/thompson..'biogenetc/law..is dead/as a door/nail...
but..some[many]..evolutionists..STILL TEACH it/../lol

ie such/like..r/carrington..who calls/it
..'the most con-colusive/proof ever..sorry about my spelling]..

i should..let those
who/BELIEVE..the lie..stay decieved

Hello Dan and OUG,

Flat Earth:

Daniel: 4.11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ends of the earth.

Matthew: 4.8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.

Dear Rusty,

Interesting posts. Keep it up.

Dan is enamoured of the opinion of Carl Sagan, let's help him...

From the book Dan quoted (Dragons of eden):
Regarding "the universality of the process of evolution" (page 5): "the great principle of biology - the one that as far as we know, distinguishes the biological from the physical sciences - is evolution by natural selection".

Regarding historical scope: "The simplest organisms on the earth today have just as much evolutionary history behind them as the most complex, and it may well be that the internal biochemistry of contemporary bacteria is more efficient than the internal biochemistry of the bacteria of three billion years ago. The amount of genetic information in bacteria today is probably greater than that in their ancient bacterial ancestors. It is important to distinguish between the amount of information and the quality of that information" (pp21)

Regarding mutations: "Accidentally useful mutations provide the working material for biological evolution" (pp27)

From "the demon-haunted world" page 252:
"Under the guise of "creationism", a serious effort continues to be made to prevent evolutionary theory - the most powerful integrating idea in all of biology, and essential for other sciences ranging from astronomy to anthropology - from being taught in schools" (Dan needs to be made aware that this is a condemnation of creationism, as I think his grasp of Sagan's english is poor)

From Cosmos (illustrated edition):
Regarding domesticated organisms "if artificial selection can make such major changes in so short a time, What must natural selection, working over billions of years, be capable of? The answer is all the beauty and diversity of the natural world. Evolution is a fact, not a theory" (pp27)

Regarding mutations: "The environment selects those few mutations that enhance survival, resulting in a series of slow transformations of one lifeform into another" (pp27)

"the secrets of evolution are death and time - the deaths of enormous numbers of lifeforms that were imperfectly adapted to their environment, and time for a long succession of small mutations that were by accident adaptive, time for the slow accumulation of favourable mutations" (pp30)

continued

Since Dan is such a great respecter of brief quotes (perhaps he has a short attention span?) I will, of course, expect him to start future posts with acknowledgement of Sagan's views as defining of his own, but only if he is honest and worthy to bear witness, rather than a despicable quote-miner.

I believe that Dan has grossly and purposfully misrepresented the views of Carl Sagan as they relate to biological evolution and the contribution of DNA mutation and natural selection thereto.

I believe that this display of poor character and poor faith is motivated by and intended solely to contribute to a false impression that biological evolution does not enjoy broad acceptance by the vast majority od practising biologists and of most other senior scientists.

Go away Dan, you are a liar, you work for liars. I don't believe you represent thoughtful christians, nor are your trivial views deserving of consideration by our society.

Rusty

OHliver..your case/for,,]]..<<..Flat Earth:..Daniel:..4.11..relates..to a cetain/kings..DREAM...lol

partial/quotes..of dream-sequences,..mate..thats desperate

<<Matthew:..4.8/..Again,..the devil/taketh him up..into an exceeding high mountain,..and sheweth him/all the kingdoms of the world,and the glory of them.>>>what..of this...flat-earth...?

ever heard of visions..not based on physical/visioning?
ol/crusty/trusty..pro-fessing.hoar..<<"the great principle of biology>>>ok so we have...a great/prince0iple...not a science...lol

<<the one/that...as far as we know,>>..yes...AS/FAR..as''we'...KNOW...lol

<<distinguishes/the biological..from the physical sciences>>
in a less that scientificlly destisinguised..manner..lol

<<is evolution/by natural selection".>>get it...mr/clever...NATURE..aint...science
what god does is use..nature/nurture..ie the natural

what man does is twist words..
that make ..some principle...lol..a science

science/claims..repeat-ability..
SO REPLICATE/evolution..mutating..'out of'..genus..genious

<<.."The simplest-organisms..on the earth/today..have just as much evolutionary-history..behind them as the most complex>>yet are still mutating..within their genomic/quantum,

to wit/half-wit...bacteria..are STILL bacteria
virus..still virus
just as god made..them

birds are birds
fish..are fish
humans..only huh-man..not gods

<<and it/may*>>lol..<<well be..that the internal/biochemistry of contemporary bacteria..is more efficient..than the internal biochemistry..of the bacteria of three billion years ago.>>

despite..many retarded..pro/fessing-whiores..bombarding them with mutation/inducing poisens..and radio-active..polutions..in the name of science...lol

that isnt even a science..but a principle

that..HAS NEVER RECORDED..nor observed,...
let alone..witnessed...ANY CHANGE OF GENUS

<<The amount/of..genetic information..in bacteria...today is probably greater>>>probably..is about the level/of science...this evolving thesis..has stooped..to

its sad..that we cant extract..dna..from stone...to validate..his lattest/poosable..PREMISE..

yet you think..this probably..is proof?

<<It is important/to..distinguish-between..the amount/of information and..the quality/of..that information">>

i agree...the quality..of the evi-dense..presented..to support..evolution/exta..genus...is missing..from the vast bulk/quantity..

in short>>you got opinion>faith>belief>PRINCIPLES..not proof

<<"if artificial/selection..can make/such major-changes..in so short a time,..What must/natural-selection,..working over/billions of years,..be capable of?>>>SUCH DELUSIONS...MAN..IS claimed..TO HAVE EVOLVED..from/APE..ONLY LESS/THAN 100.000..YEARS AGO..NOT BILLIONS

BUT THE FACT/REMAINS....SELECTION/BY..MAN..lol
WITHIN..genus...is NOTHING..like nature/selecting..back to its genomic-mean

to wit/quote..mr/sir..DAREwin..himself
re 1000/pigeons...REMAINING at genomic/stasis..
of their wild-type[+]..the blue-bar/rock-dove

or recent/research..re darwins/finches..fluctuating../betwixt/between./
/long-beaked==or short-beaked..DEPENDANT..ON SEASON..

<<The answer/is all the beauty..and diversity/of..the natural world.>>is the result/fruit...of gods..clever planning