So, Dan, you have not studied, but just repeat your malignantly misinformed statements.

Understand, repeating things that are not true to the best of easily obtained knowledge does not impress people who have done their own bacteriology, and sequenced the genes for themselves. Your views are not well informed. They are tediously ignorant, indicative of the new level of respect religion deserves.

Mutation *combined with* natural selection result in novel sequences of DNA, coding for (for instance) enzymes with improved function relative to the selection criteria, for instance metabolism of an altered feedstock or tolerance to a novel antibiotic.

Your insistence on words like "creative" when I am certain you could not match such "creative" capacity is disingenuous.

Similarly, you ignore Sagan's use of "most" in a context of selection. A deliberate (and cheap) attempt at misinformation.

I believe your motives are not greater understanding but greater confusion for those not able to discern, and incidentally dumb enough to trust you.

Twenty-five years ago I was paid thirty dollars an hour to teach this stuff to lab classes of polite, well-informed, diligent and genuine students. You are none of these, you parrot stock phrases from creationist literature as if this was proof of anything but your ungracious intent. I would kick you out and require you to pay to re enroll in the course.

So in closing, I suggest that the excessive and conspicuous respect we pay religion is abused by people likle you, is no longer deserved, and that the more genuinely and honestly religious should look to people like you to pick up the act long before they look to people like me for withdrawing our tolerance.

Rusty

im/not...about-to..get side-tracked..by ..the flat-earth..debate...lol

so lets..look/at..how-they..twist..the math

from/link...<<Chances/of Evolution

Sir;Fred-Hoyle/a mathematician..and astronomer..calculated/that the probability-of..one simple-enzyme..forming by chance..is 10 to the power of 20..(a/one with twenty zeros behind it),to 1.

Hence for one-cell/to form,..about 2000 enzymes..are needed,/which makes the probability-of..the first self-replicating/cell..forming by random movement/of atoms..as 10/to the power-of 40000 to 1.

One bitter-critic/of Hoyle begrudgingly..says..that/that this figure is..'probably not overly exaggerated'.>>.so lets put that into proportion

<<It has been said/that..this is as likely-as..a cyclone going through a junkyard..and producing..a fully functional jumbo jet.>>so the odds/are HUGE..but then we get destractions...i will go back-to later..'cut'

<There are/approximately..10 to the power of 80 atoms..in this universe.>

<<Francis/Crick..recognised the problem/of..the extremely low probability..that life could come/from..non-life on earth...He concluded that the earth was not old enough,..and postulated that life...LOL..'may'..lol..have/come..from another planet.>>MAY?MIGHT>>>SOME SCIENCE METHOD..!

<<Hence..in order/for us..then to have..a 1000 to 1 chance..of life forming by itself,>>>a thousand..to one?....

is not anything like..10..WITH 40..ZERO"S..to one...lol

edited...<<..there would need-to/be...LOL..roughly 10 to the power of 38970 planets out there..(fairly close to us)..capable of supporting life>>....so that means..we could not be alone...10/plus[38970..zeros]..CAPABLE OF SUPPORTING..LIFE..[and we havnt found EVEN one...!..]

<<But are Fred/Hoyles calculation's correct?>>even/his..'bitter-criyic,,thought so...lol

<<It would be/dangerous*..just to assume-that..his calculations were.>>>yes it would..be dangerouse...lol..to the theory of evolutions..peers...[BUT NOTE THEY ARNT REBUTTING>>ERROR..only playing may/may have/might..could..etc[ie SPIN]

<<A more recent/claim..details that biogenesis..(the formation of life from non-life)..is not reliant/on..the random movement of atoms>>>thus this UNNAMED..but 'more recent...claim'''..lol..rebuts olivers QUANTUM.thesis..[you going to name/names oli...[this authoritive/spin hasnt...lol

qm/random[lol]-movement..lol<<but/is a natural process,..just as hydrogen/and oxygen atoms.,.naturally attract/to form water.>>>cant you lot see spin/when you see it?

then anopther...but...[is this a re-butt?<<But,..if>>..NOTE THE BIG IF>>>?<<..if this-is the case,>>>this is science/proof?...lol

<<what-are.the chances of the..'Big Bang'..>>>yet another THEORY>>>!..<<..producing/the atoms..that would behave..in such a fashion/that..they would naturally>>>lets ask doyle...lol...

but note..were talking about ATOMS.....that need to form..<<amino acids and proteins,..which in turn would naturally/come together to form..'LOL...LIFE...lol..>>define...naturally...[god/is nature...how natural..unlike science...lol

yes thats all they got..so lets get back to the cut/paste..redirection..cut earlier...lol

PASTE...<<..People..do say>>>WHICH PEOPLE DO SAY>>>>SCIENTISTS>>ATHIESTS>>>PEERS>>POPES>>>SAINTS?DEMONS>>>natzies?

<<that...if..>>if...lol<<you allow enough time,..anything/can happen.>>and if you allow enough colum/inches..even spin seems SCIENCE...lol

<<However,..at best/we have-about..4.6 billion years..to work with.>>>lol..watch the clever math...continues at link...lol

continues at link...lol

<<If...>>no IF about it..he has THE MATH>>>..Sir Fred Hoyle's calculated/probability..was for a cell/to form..in say the next second....LOL..clever stuff..eh..no wonder fools/athiest/agnostics..just eat this stuff-UP..

<<then the probability/of a cell forming..in 4.6 billion years is still about 10 to the power of 39982 to 1.>>even here..you err..life isnt that old..but note..4.6..billion...=[only 9..zero's..lol..not 40...!

<<If it was/for a microsecond,..the probability...LOL..would be/..10 to the power of 39976 to 1...If it was...LOL..for a picosecond,..the probability would/b.. 10 to the power of 39970 to 1.>>>lol..sooo clever[what happend to the 40..ZEROES..!]

HA/HA/HA..it could be funny..if it wernt..SO SERIOUS..!

but lets see what/the-tide..has brought...in..lol

why a rusty/catheater..<<..Understand,..repeating things..that are not true...lol..to the best-of..easily obtained knowledge..does not impress people>>>lol..how true..lol..

CAN YOU PROVIDE EVIDENCE>.of evolution...you know facts...!

[impressing ignorants,unlike me[rusty cateater<<...who have/done their own bacteriology,..>>ie put a few bacteria,...into a nutrient/plate..and cultured..bacteria..from BACTERIA,,..lol..mate your so clever..how did you MAKE A NEW SPECIES<,,oh you didnt,...lol

<<and sequenced/the genes..for themselves>>>using machines...OTHERS BUILT?others designed..to make clever points..yet not be able to explain...evolution..by species..into new genus..your a genious,..,mate...lol

how did you/ever..have the time to learn latin...[but it seems your not even..a real docter...lol..[nor genetisist/nor biologist..lol..only some lab/teqnition..wanna be...lol

<<..Mutation..*combined with*..natural selection>>>is how nature..did it...THATS NOT SCIENCE/mate..lol..never the less..nature did it...NOT YOU..then only getting the same/species/genus..

WITH..<<..result in novel sequences..of DNA>>>..ALL THE SAME genus..AS THEIR PARENTS...genious...lol

<<..Your insistence/on words like.."creative"..when I am certain..you could not match/such.."creative" capacity..is disingenuous.>>lol...

your not claiming creativity..lol..
for ALLOWING bacteria..to do what they been doing..FOREVER?...lol

HA/HA...lol
its all such a sad joke

<<i..believe>>because you cant replicate..nor validate..let alone prove..that you claim..lol

you believ..well so do we..<<..your motives are/not..greater understanding..but greater confusion..for those..>>>ignorants?..<<not able to discern,..and incidentally..dumb-enough to trust you.>>>RIGHT BACK AT YA SUNSHINE...lol

we cant all be as clever..as you

LOL

LOL

LOL

Dear Rusty,

Moreover, on average, in humans, there are thirty mutations per genome per generation (Spencer Wells). So, each us has something new other than the genentic contribution of our parents.

Dear Dan and OUG,

It is possible that Darwin was influenced by the uniformitarianism of Charles Lyle, wherein, in geology the physical topography of the earth changed slowly of aeons. Most people, Christians included, from the mid-nineteen century through to present times, saw that geology and biology operate over long time periods. As for cosmology: "huge" periods of time. Some people, including, seemingly, your good selves, have chosen to take ancient scripture as "literal". You are not alone. Newtown had a problem with reconciling the time it would have taken the earth to cool down with the Bible's dating of the earth. We also had the "monkey trials" in the US. Yet, as noted, most theists, even Christians, will render unto science.

As for the Orgin of Life, I am sure neither Biologists nor Physcists are going to firmly hold on to old beliefs, if, say, ten years from now, it takes both disciplines to explain what happened. Ideas, not only, galaxies, stars, planets and organisms, evolve.

OUG,

FYI:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

Moreover, if superposition in quantum mechanics comes into play, classical statistics would prove to irrelevant anyway.

What was Adam's blood group?

O.

oh dear/olive..from/ya link..

<<..An..illustration/comparing..a hypothetical*
..protobiont..and/a..modern-bacteria..is given..below>>>LOL

ONE..IS REAL...the other's../a..model*..;...FICTION*..get/it..?

you lot/..begin-with..a HYPOTHETICAL*-CELL..
then/further..destract....with..a theory...!

NOT/SCIENCE_FACT

<<Similarly,..of the..1 x 10130/possible..100 unit-proteins,..3.8 x 1061..represent..cytochrome/C..alone!>>

the math/IMPOSSABILITY....got bigger..not smaller

<<There's/..lots-of..functional-enyzmes..in/the peptide/nucleotide search/space,...so..it would/..seem*..likely...>>>

lol..YES IT WOULD..'seem*'..YOU GOT/NO..EVIDENCE..lol

but this/is..NOT SCIENCE...!
..its seem's..and other loose/hypothetical...ideas..is/NOT*..SCIENCE...get it?

So,..even/with.. more realistic..(if somewhat/mind-beggaring)..figures,..random-assemblage..of amino/acids..into "life-supporting" systems>>..

YOUR STILL/..ONLY GOT..A THEORY....!

<<it would..seem*/...LOL..to be entirely-feasible,...lol
...even with pessimistic-figures..LOL..for/the original..THEORETICAL*/monomer..concentrations/and synthesis*times.>>

your peddeling...a THEORY...
based/on..a model..!

<<Conclusions/..The-very/..premise*>>>
GET IT..PRE_MISE..NOT FACT..!

>>!<<of creationists'/probability calculations/is incorrect/in the first place..as it..aims at the wrong-theory...>>LOL

..or your..just/chosing to-name/call..it wrong..!

then use..HYPOTHETICAL-MODELING..and SPIN..!

<<this argument/is often buttressed..with statistical and biological fallacies.>>>LOL

never a more/correct-statement..recorded...

pot/kettle...get it

SPEAK IT..IN PLAIN SPEAK...

<<At the moment,..>>...NOTE..
<<..since..we have..no idea*../how probable life..is,>>..

GET IT?

yet even here/..its couched..in jargon
he is saying..we/

..he dont know..!

yet cant/come straight-out..and SAY THAT..!

he instead says..how improbale...life is..lol
[we allready revealed..THAT..}

not how..improble..life is to beget.
CAUSE..IT'S allready..BEGOTTEN/FACT

WEASEL/WORDS..!

<<it's virtually/impossible>>...lol

get it..thats why..he says/
adds..NOTHING..but/spin..theory..!

<<..to assign any/meaningful-probabilities/
to any-of..the steps to life...>>>..GET IT..!

HE DONT KNOW...!

<<..except/the first two..(monomers/to..polymers..p=1.0,/formation of catalytic polymers p=1.0)...>>

yes we can make/chemiclly-long/chain polyners...
[its called nylon..GET_IT..?]

a cell..is more..than nylon..!

<<For the..replicating/polymers
to hypercycle transition.. the probability may*...>>lol may..<<well-be 1.0>>...LOL..

yes aint,..inert/..chemistry..great...!

WITH the PROVISO/spin..

<<..if Kauffman..is right/..about catalytic closure...>>>

LOL..if/..maybe..possably..lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalysis

in/case/your..ignorant..
catilists produce..HEAT*...get it

<<.. if there/is...no/energy barrier,>>>..ie heat..

and heating..a living cell..DESTROYS IT..!
just/ask the..rusty...genious..about heating..BACTERIA..!

no energy/barrier..<<..there is no need/for a catalyst>>...LOL

<<Then,..removing..the catalyst/would..also result in reaction,..producing energy;>>..IE HEAT..!

this is so/much..NOT 'BIO'-LOGICAL..
ie its chemistry...acids/..and other cell/destroying..substances..
ie..chemicals...chem-mastery

..not PROOF..NOT LIFE....thus/lie..!

<<i.e...the addition/and..its reverse process,..removal,..would/both produce energy.>>>..

IE HEAT..ie change..of state/mate..
not life/creation..life destraction/destruction..!

<<Thus,..a catalyst/that could change..
the equilibrium/would be a perpetual..motion machine>>..

BUT..cells die/but seems/your-mate's..close to imortality..but/NOT abio-genesis..!

perpetual/motion-machines..<<,..a contradiction..to the laws..of thermodynamics>>..

IE NOT BIOLOGY..!

back to./ya stink/link..

<<and his phase transition..._models*_,>>..IE MODELS....NOT FACT....pure/spin-THEORY..!

<<but/this requires...real chemistry..
and more detailed...[wait-for-it]..modelling*..>>>lol

<<to confirm.>>>

LOL..see how-easy/you/lot..been FOOLED..!

<<For the/hypercycle->protobiont..transition,..t
he probability here..is dependent..on theoretical*..[LOL]..concepts..*..>>>

!...!...!

<<..still being/..developed*
,..and is unknown*.>>

*...LOL..!

<<However,>>..lol..<<in the end..life's..feasibility..>>>
CONTINUANCE...NOT CREATION..!!...
<<..depends on chemistry..and biochemistry...>>

<<..that we are/still studying*,...>>..!

THAT...we-ARE still STUDYING..LOL..!

get it..!

ie the..FACTS ARNT..'in'
ITS THEORY>>>

get it...!