Self-Opinionated2,

Why do you keep going on about us 'all' being believers ? Most posters on this thread seem to be atheists, who don't necessarily believe a word of the bible or any other man-made religious book. Probably Jesus or Mary didn't exist, at least certainly not as depicted in the new testament.

But none of that matters: what are these fairy stories trying to get across ? To love one another, etc., of course, but these are not solely religious messages, they may apply to everybody everywhere, now. The general thrust of all of those stories ultimately provides a philosophical basis for modern society for all of us, atheists and believers.

So your rabbiting on about Moses and David etc. is pretty pointless - easy targets that you take pride in smashing. Move on: what can you, and all of us, learn from the apocryphal stories, many of them borrowed from other traditions in the OT and NT ? How have those ideas evolved over the past three or four thousand years, particularly the last two thousand years ? How have they influenced the development of science, knowledge and the Enlightenment ideals that we rely on today ?

Joe

Religions are all wrong seeing the false traditions/false systems in churches and how they can be used to cover up crimes against children..

http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/royal-commission-into-institutional-responses-to-child-sexual-abuse-delivers-recommendations/news-story/f115d642e1826935910178a281d8dd18

Some people use Moses to justify the confessional?....Is this the Moses who:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29...says the sin of raping a virgin can be washed away as long as the man pays the father fifty shekels of silver?...http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2022:28-29&version=KJV

NUMBERS 31:13-19...where he orders the killing of all women and boys but his soldiers can keep the virgins and girls for themselves?...http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=NUMBERS%2031:13-18&version=KJV

Moses wasn't a nice man!

When you quote Numbers 14:19-23 & Numbers 16:46-48 it isn't justifying the confessional.

Numbers 14:19-23...http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2014:19-23&version=KJV

Numbers 16:46-48...http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2016:46-48&version=KJV

Wasn't the confessional created as a mechanism of control, by allowing priests...(using Moses-like threats)...to know what was going on in the community?

Surely God would be smart enough to know that putting it in the hands of man it would be misused?....Or isn't he that smart?

I'll let this site argue the Peter was the first Pope question....http://www.bible.ca/cath-peter=pope.htm

Now your quoting John 20:23 was a good selection except it doesn't justify the confessional...surely GOD/JESUS would have mentioned the confessional more precisely...they/he/she/it knows all things past, present and future.

And if any of what this link alleges is true...the confessional came about much later than Peter...and wasn't it misused very early on?...http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/380995.html

But I gather priests...(who have committed these crimes)...have also had the power to hear confessions and have also forgiven people's sins...How does that work?

If the above article is correct and if you answer Yes to the above question hasn't the confessional got a lot to answer for?

Papal Infallibilty?...lol

The Catholics say under the heading of The Pope quite a deal....http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#IIIB and doesn't the Catholic Encyclopaedia make this a falsehood?

Here's one Pope's alleged infallibility...JOHN XII (956-64)...http://www.ftarchives.net/foote/crimes/c7.htm

or the Catholic view....http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08426b.htm

Do Catholics know the history of the Popes?

Is remaining "in the church"....if so many crimes against children have been allegedly covered up..."tacit approval"?

I'd be the first to leave any organisation that covered up crime!

This alleged victim in the USA asks a very pertinent question...http://blogs.alternet.org/cityofangelsonalternet/2010/03/11/the-catholic-church-just-got-away-with-50-years-of-sex-crimes-against-children/

What do you say to this?

SELF-Op2,

So, you've learnt nothing from anybody's comments ? You still think you've achieved wonders in attacking the beliefs espoused in the OT of three thousand years ago ? And the doings of the Popes of a thousand years ago ?

We read your posts as a matter of politeness, but I'm betting none of us can see the significance fo whatever you are so selectively obsessed with. Whether Moses or David or Jesus were actual people is either here nor there, it's what they stood for that is carried through.

In the case of the Moses story, it's obedience to one's god no matter what, versus the free-will principle of the Adam and Eve story. In the case of the Jesus story, it's all those philosophical principles that had evolved in the meantime since the Moses story, many of them borrowed of course from eastern religions and the Greek philosophers.

Stories can be very instructive, like good movies or TV series: we don't believe the events they depict may have actually happened, but we learn from them. That may one day even apply to you. :)

Joe

I learn from everybody BUT I see the flaws in the teachings and the lies being told.

It seems you as an Atheist find the BS instructive...I don't!

Ancient Popes aren't just the problem and yet you seem to think that is where it ended.

Cardinal Ratzinger needs reviewing for what he did covering up child abuse claims... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8045#249674

And have you ever heard of the book...about Pope John Paul II - http://www.papelesdesociedad.info/IMG/pdf/the_salesman_and_a_chemist_who_became_pope.pdf

Christians are the worlds greatest at falling to their knees (figuratively) and begging and praying for forgiveness.

It's all a load of rubbish because they go and repeat their same failings the very next day.

Sorry if the lies being told by Churches doesn't bother you...sorry that the indoctrination methods of the Churches doesn't bother you...sorry that scaring little children with hell, satan and demons doesn't bother you...It should!

Sorry that the facts get in the way of your peaceful little world but someone has to present them.

Let's all whitewash history so tht you people who don't care can have a more peaceful life.

Let's forget at about Maralinga and the little particles of joy in our bodies and our children's and grand children's bodies so you can respect the Brits...Let's forget how the British Royals and Robert traitor Menzies sold us all out in that example.

Let's forget about the lies by Little SH Howard getting us into the Iraq war where some of our soldiers died and some have been maimed or damaged for life. He's fine no problems there!..You've forgotten!

Let's forget about Britain not wanting to send our troups home in World War 2 leaving us exposed to the might of the Japanese Armed Forces. Yes let's forget Winston Churchill tried that on...Luckily we said no!

The lies and distortions in 100 years will be very informative!

Let's forget the truth...the story is much better when the propogandists have finished with it...lmao

Believers need to read the facts and the verses that prove them if only to free themselves from the indoctrination we all get!

But Baby Jesus was a lovely baby...FFS...

Op2,

"I'd be the first to leave any organisation that covered up crime!"

Got dual citizenship have you?

Wher you gunna go and when?

Is Mise...You really are a sorry individual...

Leaving your country of birth is not the same as leaving a religion that has covered up crimes against children.

Please grow a brain over Christmas! It's what Baby Jesus would have wanted from you!