With so many people voting no in the same sex marriage referendum due to their religiously based objections shouldn't we see what the religious books really say?

Simply put if you voted No based on the false teachings of Moses you are wrong!

Moses states that God hates homosexuality in two verses but Moses simply can't be trusted whatsoever!

Moses had a simple way to get people to do his bidding... Put "the Lord said" in front of everything and the people will believe you..

This is even true today - you all still believe Moses!

If you actually study your Bibles correctly you will see this in plain site.

Modern Bible study suggests that there were 4 writers of the first 5 books of the Bible - not one as most believers think. This is due to the fact that their are 4 fairly distinct writing styles...

But let's stick to the concept of Moses wrote them.

Moses made up the flood story - You believe it!

Moses made up the Passover story and you believe it!

Moses made up the plague stories... And you believe it! Why?

In the flood according to your Bibles God killed every living person except Noah and his family in a flood that supposedly covered the entire planet.

This means that you believe and hold true that God killed EVERY INNOCENT BABY, EVERY INNOCENT CHILD & EVERY INNOCENT BABE IN THE WOMB.

As the flood never happened this means that you believe the most horrid lies against God.

How would you feel if someone told such a horrid lie about you?

Why are you so at ease believing this massive lie against your God?

I am not an Atheist... I just think it is time people actually were told the truth!

So what are you saying exactly?

That's a tough question Armchair critic...I am going to show that the Bible is a load of rubbish..lol

My studies were in the Christian religion and I was astounded at how wrong everyone is on the topic. They claim the Bible is God's word but almost none have studied it properly or even realise what it says.

There is a simple reason for this... Believers are lazy! Their faiths are based on rubbish and they simply don't get it!

So this thread will focus more on the Christian religion but it covers all the Abrahamic religions.

One of the problems with the Christian religion is that it really isn't Christian... It's Paulian... Paul is quoted more often than Jesus. Do the test for yourselves... See how often Paul is quoted in church services and see how often Jesus is quoted.

So let's take a quick look at Paul.

Paul was a Pharisee! Jesus couldn't stand Pharisee. Paul persecuted Christians and then suddenly infiltrated the Christians by lying his way in.

So how do we know this... Paul says it himself!

Acts 23:6 “But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I AM A PHARISEE, THE SON OF A PHARISEE: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.”

Jesus called Pharisses snakes and hypocrites... but that doesn't bother the churches...lol They quote Paul ad nausium!

Here is what Jesus said about Pharisees in Matthew 23 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/23/1/s_952001

Now here is a problem for Catholics - Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

And here is a problem for the old Christian slave owners...

Matthew 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

People who call themselves Christian don't follow Jesus... They follow Paul!

So let's see how Paul infiltrated the Christians and corrupted Jesus' teachings...

... Cont

Matthew 23 shows Jesus was not a fan of the Pharisees.

Notice in my previous post Paul doesn't say..."I WAS a Pharisee but says.."I AM A PHARISEE".

Paul oppressed women, lied, stole, and falsified most things to suit his mission. He only mentions Jesus about 11 times.

So let's see how Paul manipulates bringing Pharisaical rulings to corrupt.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

WHERE DID JESUS PREACH THIS? I know Paul is wrong, but do believers?

But there is more -

1 Timothy 2:11-14 “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

Paul was just a man BUT also a Pharisee! And yet he continued the discrimination against women for a further 2000 years and beyond! Is discriminating against 50% of the population, (in this case ALL women) a crime against humanity?

His statement about the transgression proves he is a liar... He changes it to suit himself. God told Adam not to eat of the tree...not Eve. Eve wasn't even created then.

Romans 5:12-15 Wherefore, as BY ONE MAN (ADAM) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of ADAM'S TRANSGRESSION, who is the figure of him that was to come.

See the Pharisaical transgression mischief? It's in plain sight!

'
But there is more -

1 Timothy 2:11-14 “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

Sounds reasonable to me.

Just to prove what I say is true...

Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God COMMANDED THE MAN, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof THOU SHALT SURELY DIE.

Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

So it was Adam who was ordered by God not to eat the fruit...

How do women believers accept all the oppression caused by Paul and the religions when it flies totally in the face of Jesus' teachings?

Where did Jesus teach this?

1 Corinthians 11:6 For if a woman is not covered, LET HER BE SHORN. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.

Sorry ladies all you that don't cover your heads in Church need to be shorn... Paul says so...lmao

Paul makes a freudian slip that believers never notice...

1Corinthians 7:10 But to the married I GIVE INSTRUCTIONS, NOT I, BUT THE LORD, that the wife should not leave her husband

He obviously didn't have an eraser so he accidently left it that really the instructions were from him Oops sorry Jesus...lmao

Now Paul was always into power over people and he lies again

1 Corinthians 14:37 “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”

Can a man make a commandment – Answer NO! Paul certainly got a bit full of himself here. He even states you can't be spiritual without believing him! What ROT! But no-one notices... Did you know he wrote these things?

If these are commandments from the Lord as Paul claims men had better buy some shears to get those uncovered heads in Church shorn, hadn't they?..lmao Pharisees were always atrociously hard on women!

Aint Bible analysis fun! More to follow!

' I am not an Atheist... I just think it is time people actually were told the truth!'

Opinionated2

u don't realise how dumb that comment is coming from an atheist. The truth is that you along with every other human has a corrupt nature and your twisting of Scripture just proves it. The version of ' truth' is very perverted.

Well I'm willing to follow along with your line of thought.

But let me get this straight:

You're saying the bible says these things that you've quoted;
But that the Bible is telling us what 'Paul' said, not what 'Jesus' said;
And that women are being subjugated by the teachings of 'Paul' who was a 'Pharisee'.

Am I correct?

I find this topic curious and interesting.
(even though you come across a little kooky with the scriptures)
It's a question I've pondered over before, in my own way.

I think of Christian women as being loyal, and kind of subservient in a way that they would not often challenge their husbands; and I look at the pro's and con's of that way of thinking.

Women being subservient might help in keeping a family unit intact;
But if a woman challenges her husband when he's wrong; or even leaves him; then this may force him to learn the error of his ways, and become a better man for it.

So the 'Pro's' are keeping the family unit intact.
The 'Con's' - keeping a sinful and ignorant man from becoming all that he should become, true consciousness and awareness of things.

In a way this 'Christian women's subservience' nurtures the man's shortcomings.

But that's all I can offer at this juncture...
Please continue.

Why would anyone spend time and effort on something they hate and don't believe in?

'Aint Bible analysis fun! More to follow!'

Unfortunately.

Muhammed wrote what the Pharisees in the cave told him . He had a chance to take over the Vatican 5 years before dying.

Pope Adeodatus died 8 November 618. There was a vacancy of one year, one month, and 16 days before his successor was consecrated.
A Jewish Muslim would have revved up the reverends as Adeodatus was first pope to use lead seals (bullae) on papal documents, which in time came to be called "papal bulls" and Pope Bull was Muhammed's style.

An atheists view is two dimensional. Whereas, a spiritual view is three dimensional, and includes the view outside of the physical world.

Atheism flounders around, lost for purpose. Nothing to offer but extreme anxiety!

I also notice, not many of religious faith, really give a tinkers damn about what atheists think.

There is one notable exception on OLO, who is a tragic.

I could not be bothered answering all this diatribe interpretation. OP2 offers nothing to the world!

Opinionated2,

So, what religion are you then?

<<I am not an Atheist... I just think it is time people actually were told the truth!>>

Because you certainly don’t sound like a Jew or a Muslim. Are you a Hindu?

--

ttbn,

That’s a good question.

<<Why would anyone spend time and effort on something they hate and don't believe in?>>

Probably for the same reason you spend so much time on, and hate, Islam.

--

diver dan,

This statement assumes that atheism attempts to provide a purpose at all.

<<Atheism flounders around, lost for purpose.>>

It doesn’t, of course. Atheism is simply a response to a single claim.

Oh look Runner's 100% wrong as usual...lol

I show Chapter and verse to prove what was said....Runner just gives your Pharsaically indoctrinated opinion...So why do you believe horrid lies against God again?...lol
It's not kooky to quote the exact Chapter and verse Armychair but I'm afraid that is exactly what the religions deliberately ignore...They never mention these verses.

Many religious people here will be reading these verses for the first time... But they love God and God's word...lmao

Can we trust Paul's conversion when he changes his story when it suits him, is a known Pharisee and should we ignore Jesus' warning about Pharisees in Matthew 23 like Runner obviously does? This is a HUGE problem for believers and people who claim the Bible is GOD's word!

Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; BUT THEY HEARD NOT THE VOICE OF HIM THAT SPAKE TO ME.

OR

Acts 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, HEARING A VOICE, BUT SEEING NO MAN.

Both can't be true! Did they or didn't they hear Jesus' voice?

There are so many differences in the stories in the Bible between writers that it defies logic that it is God's word. But the Pharisaical teachings will always lie about that also...A quick example is the death of Judas Iscariot...

Matthew 27:5 And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went AND HANGED HIMSELF.

OR

Acts 1:18 Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; AND FALLING HEADLONG, HE BURST ASUNDER IN THE MIDST, AND ALL HIS BOWELS GUSHED OUT.

OOPS!...Two totally different stories. And who purchased the Potter's field?

Acts 1:18 says Judas did and Matthew 26:6-7 says the Chief priest and his council did.

Matthew 27:6-7 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

OOps again...

Josephus can't answer so he takes the weaklings way out... He hasn't even read the Bible probably... but he believes it's God's word...lmao

Watch the ugly Christian come out in people like Josephus and Runner...lol

I am not religious whatsoever...I was lied to by so many Christians that I went and actually read the Bible and annotated it very precisely. The Pharisees amongst us are too lazy to study...lol

Now of course Paul lies against one of Jesus' most important teachings... That of the Prodigal Son...

The Prodigal Son is too long to reproduce here so here is a link... Luke 15:1-32 https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/luk/15/1/s_988001

Jesus says in Luke 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

This is talking about a sheep coming back to the fold...

Paul says

Hebrews 6:4-6 FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, To RENEW THEM AGAIN unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The story of the Prodigal Son says it is possible, and I thought anything is possible for God...Paul sure was full of himself here and WRONG!

Like most preachers Paul loved speaking on behalf of Jesus and God but like them also got things continually wrong...

Paul was an oppressor of women, a liar, a thief and pretended he was an Apostle... and you guys fall for it...lol The churches have been built on Paul not Jesus!

When Paul wrote his letters he didn't realise someone would compile them and compare them. The Bible books are similar.

In church over the next few weeks count how many times your preacher quotes Jesus and how many times they quote Paul the Pharisee.

I understand how men believe Paul because all the power goes to them...but how do women believe Paul's rubbish? Ladies please wake up! You aren't second rate citizens like the Bible teaches!

Don't be silent - be forthright!

I don't want to pick on any one denomination or religion because they are all wrong and all believers are wrong - The Bible proves it.

In the SSM debate believers chose no based on two verses in the Bible from Moses.

Moses was a psychopathic war criminal which I will prove in future posts. As I have stated he put "the Lord said" so that his blind fearful followers would just accept anything he said. They are still believing Moses today...lmao

Jesus proves Moses lied!

Exodus 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: AND THEY SAW THE GOD OF ISRAEL: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: ALSO THEY SAW GOD, and did eat and drink.

AND THE BIBLE SAYS JESUS SAID

John 1:18 NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

AND

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. YE HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE.

AND

John 6:46 NOT THAT ANY MAN HATH SEEN THE FATHER, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So I guess believers have a really simple choice - Do they believe Jesus or do they believe liars like Paul and Moses?

OOPS

I am a theology graduate, and have read every verse in the various translations of the Bible over 40 times in my 77 years, and most of the Hebrew and Greek text so I have nothing for which to apologise.

Deliberate misrepresentations of verses out of a context is not intelligent understanding of the history or purpose of the text.

This such a childish thread. When I was about seven, I asked my mum if there was a god. Being a communist, she just said, "No." So I spent my primary school years, and if I'm honest my secondary years too, nutting out that this or that story in the Bible couldn't be true, they were impossible, ridiculous. Until I realised that of course they weren't even meant to be true, they were all allegories and parables and cautionary tales, and that they didn't even matter, not so much as the underlying principles of belief, worship, obedience, wonder, bla bla, etc. THAT was what needed to be argued for and against.

And that applies to all religions: belief without evidence, or a more rational, scientific approach. Out of that internal discussion comes one's personal notions of right and wrong, good and bad, how societies are or should be organised, what the future holds (i.e. eventual death) and how to face the inevitable.

So get over the silly stories, move onto the more fundamental beliefs in every religion. Probably not even that many Christians believe the stories, they've got more sense.

Joe

psst... is anyone gunna tell Opinionated2 that there never was Moses?

and that the majority of the people he is deriding for their beliefs in a Moses don't hold such beliefs?

It is possible to believe both that the Bible is God's word but that it isn't to be taken literally.

It is possible for example, to believe that God inspired those 6th century BC authors to write about Noah's flood without actually believing that a Noah/Gilgamesh existed. It is possible to see the flood as a story to illustrate the power of God to reek terrible havoc as punishment for terrible sins. A simple story to teach simple folk of the power of the divine while being a complex stroy to induce more sophisticate folk to ponder their existence and place in the scheme of things vis-a-vis the divine. Of coarse, 21st century western intellectuals are way too sophisticated to fall for the idea that the planet can be destroyed as punishment for our sins....

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2004/feb/22/usnews.theobserver

If the Bible was written by divine inspired authors, God had a massive audience. His Bible had to interest and inform peoples across several millennia, across several continents and innumerable cultures.

Reading such a thing literally is bonkers yet seems to be the favourite pastime for those atheists who fancy themselves so much more intelligent than those whose beliefs that don't have the wherewithal to really understand.

Psst...Maze...You have missed the whole point of this discussion... Come back when you are awake...lmao I am quoting the Bible and in it Moses did exist...

Josephus...I haven't taken anything out of context as I quote exact Chapter and verse every time. That is the lie that all believers use when they know nothing.

All that supposed Bible study and nothing to show for it...lmao

And I call BS here Josephus...you claim that you... "have read every verse in the various translations of the Bible over 40 times in my 77 years".

How many translations of the Bible are there Josephus...Come on fess up that is BS! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations

So you have read...EVERY verse...in EVERY translation... OVER 40 times? Utter BS!

Your Bible scholarship was clouded by one thing..."belief" - So don't start claiming what is not true...Even if you did read them that many times...you obviously didn't understand them..lol

So whether Moses existed or didn't we are discussing the Bible and in that he did exist... and he was a war criminal, and a psychopath and a horrid, horrid man...

As I have stated he said "The Lord Said"in front of everything so the Josephus' of this world would not think through what he was reading...

Modern scholarship believes their were 4 different writers of the first 5 books of the Bible... not just one... So why isn't that being taught in Churches?

So let us look at the crimes and lies of the major characters in the Bible.

I'll continue with Moses.

MASS MURDER, WAR CRIMES, INFANTICIDE, AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE! - Numbers 31:7-18 https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/num/31/7/s_148007

Some of the key verses for your enlightenment...

Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore KILL EVERY MALE AMONGST THE LITTLE ONES, and KILL EVERY WOMAN THAT HATH KNOWN A MAN BY LYING WITH HIM.

But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

So after winning the battle... Moses ordered his army to KILL EVERY INNOCENT BABY and CHILD! But to keep the female children for themselves...

Why aren't these obscenities never taught in churches?

I'll bet this idiot won't be 'analysing' the Koran in the same way he is the Bible.

Hi Ttbn,

Just wait until he gets onto Kings. All that "The people of XX, they slaughtered every man, woman and child, and yea, also all their beasts; and hanged the king from a tree" stuff.

Move on, Op2. Try to get to the guts of it all. Plenty to criticise there.

Joe

Poor ttbn... same objection every time... Sorry but I studied the Bible... It's difficult to analyse a book I haven't read...

I'm doing just fine Loudmouth...I'll cover everything over time...

It is interesting how believers accept that all these innocent babies and children were killed as ordered by their God without even blinking...

So does indoctrination and religion make people heartless and uncaring even towards babnies and children?

You do realise that most people who believe won't even know all these verses exist...They are too busy to read God's supposed word but they love him...

Josephus, sorry to interrupt your reading of every English Bible over and over but do you claim that the Bible is God's inerrant word?

Do you really believe GOD condoned of and sometimes committed infanticide, rape, murder, animal and human sacrifice, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, torture, incest, Mosaic Law - (Sharia), stoning, slavery oppression of women and other atrocities?

Every version of the Bible says GOD did!

Really? Do these lies against GOD really represent your beliefs about GOD?

Deuteronomy 3:5-7

All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many.

And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN, of EVERY CITY.

But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves.

And all under the orders of your GOD people...

I don't believe these crimes were ordained by God... but you must because you guys believe Moses the war criminal!

You guys believe the Bible...lmao

Yep Opinionated2 shows exactly why He was right and just to wipe out almost all mankind at the flood. You would think Opinionated2 would seek mercy rather than being a typical smartie who is arrogant enough to think He knows better than God. It is not the God of the bible he disbelieves but that he thinks his opinions are more righteous. You really are a joke.

Op2,

Which translation of the Bible are you using?

Op2,

Christ, you don't get it, do you ? Have you only just discovered - and are all indignant - that some of the stories in the Bible aren't true ? None of it is true. Get over it and move onto the more substantial foundations of how and why and what people believe. Fairy tales illustrate those more basic ideas. Nobody believes in being bushes or crows feeding blokes out in the desert, but each of those yarns illustrates some basic idea that the priests might have been trying to get across.

And of course, many of those bits and pieces were borrowed from other people' belief systems, and mostly garbled at that (when you have the courage to rip into the Koran, you'll notice that: yes, you'll have a great time with the Koran). And why do you think that 'Christians' have read their Bible from end to end, many times ? If they have one, of course. Of course they haven't. They may not know much more about it than you do, i.e. bugger-all.

And as for whether "You guys believe the Bible...lmao ... " what, just because someone disagrees with you ? No, we have a different and more sophisticated take on it, and are probably more atheist than you seem to be. Lyao at that.

Joe

Many people are of the opinion that the teachings
of the Bible are outdated, contradictory, and full of
scientific and historical errors. That the books of the
New Testament were written centuries after the events
they describe.

Be that as it may - however there are a large number of
religions, many of whose members are convinced that
theirs is the one true faith and all others are
misguided, superstitious, even wicked.

Whatever our religious beliefs may be, we usually learn
them from other people through socialisation into a
particular faith. The religious convictions that anyone
holds are therefore influenced by the historical and
social context in which that person happens to live.

Of course we're not the passive prisoners of our
upbringing but even people who decide to go from one
religion to another form of belief almost inevitably select
a belief from the unique range of options that their
particular culture happens to offer at a particular point
in its history.

Hi Opinionated2. A lot of reactions to your post. Here's one more though.

The way I figure it, believing in the bible is based on 2 premises to hold onto. 1) that God is real (or something to that line of thought). And 2) that the bible is written/diticated/ or inspired by God.

A third and forth one to add to that is that God can be trusted, and that He can protect His own words. So the words recorded and written can be trusted too.

If a person comes into their faith through reading the bible first and then finding God, they skip a few steps of first believing in God, then searching for Him through religous study and scriptures of one or more religions. On the other hand if a person finds God first then searches for His direction they might also find a strong trust in the bible.

It's not out of laziness and not thinking it through, it's more on if you can really trust God or not, and if the bible comes from Him. Out of this kind of reasoning, I would disagree that there are lies about God within the bible. Nor lies about history, miracles or fantastic events.

To Loudmouth.

[So get over the silly stories, move onto the more fundamental beliefs in every religion. Probably not even that many Christians believe the stories, they've got more sense.]

There are some Christians who do this. In small parts or in large parts, either disregard segments of the bible, or reinvent the verses to try to make them say something they really don't say. It is disheartening to find, but even with in the bible there are elements to strengthen our resolve in it.

"Man doesn't live by bread alone but by every word of God." "What is wisdom from God seems foolish to the world." Sorry if I muddied up the quotes, but the basis of a real basic belief can be shown. Believe in the words of the bible because of the trust you have in God.

Op2 is similar in views as the communist USSR who tried to eradicate religious belief during the revolution. I suggest he visit old soviet countries today and see they are more religious than ever.

Judaism and Christianity has tried to be eradicated for thousands of years and his unintelligent rant is not new. I'm on a Christian apologist site where leading atheists are frequently accepting Christianity. His railing against God is an open door of his mind to have sublimated truth enter. He has not got the answers to life just negative opposing thoughts.

I note his exerations of my statements indicate he does not read closely.

Hi Not..now..soon,

I have never said that God doesn't exist BUT I know that the Bible is a load of rubbish.

To believe that the Bible is God's word is simply immoral and a complete insult to God if you believe in God!

By believing the lies in the bible you are saying-

God will kill anyone at any time for whatever reason. eg. Noah's flood that never happened!

God will kill innocent babies, innocent children and innocent babes still in the womb for any reason. Noah's flood again!

That God is so unjust that he will kill all the firstborn of a nation just because the King of that nation defies him. The Passover!

I'll repeat it for you

Do you really believe GOD condoned of and sometimes committed infanticide, rape, murder, animal and human sacrifice, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, torture, incest, Mosaic Law - (Sharia), stoning, slavery oppression of women and other atrocities?

Every version of the Bible says GOD did!

Loudmouth... You are more a windbag than a loudmouth...lol

I am waiting for something useful to come from your typing fingers. I always try to listen to people like you BUT alas I can only listen to people like you for so long and then I just have to laugh at you... lmao

If you don't like the thread leave it... I am miles in front of any thinking you may have on the subject.

Is Mise... Do you really think that I would only use one version? I go back to as close to the original ancient Hebrew texts or Greek texts that I can... Then I check what is said between versions to see who most accurately represents what is being said.

Of course you probably realise that most translations are written by believers for believers except the believers never read them...lmao

The simple flaw that believers have is that they have been told it is God's word and they simply believe it. Most have never even read it. Then the preachers selectively choose the non-controversial passages and brainwash people with those!

More to follow..

Josephus you are floundering in the dark now...Do you have a torch?

Do not bear false witness! Remember that teaching in the over forty times you have read every verse in every English version of every Bible?...lmao

You have zero credibility....

So did you guys see what Moses did with the do not bear false witness verse in the 10 commandments... He failed just like Josephus...lol

The actual commandment says Exodus 20:16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Moses must have been a lawyer because he soon found a loophole in that commandment. Well he wrote it so of course he would.

If God had written it, surely he would have written "Thou shalt not bear false witness against anybody...

Now look at Moses teach exactly that!

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 If a man have a STUBBORN AND REBELLIOUS SON, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; HE IS A GLUTTON, AND A DRUNKARD.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

OOPS! Moses just ordered people to lie about their son and add HE IS A GLUTTON, AND A DRUNKARD. to the charges thus bearing false witness!

The outcome is fine... lying to get someone stoned to death must seem very reasonable to you believers...lmao

Yep! Moses was a great guy! Oh you missed that too... Gee shock horror!

Why don't you invite all your other Bible believing friends to join in this thread... The more I defeat the merrier...lmao

"Nobody believes in being [burning?] bushes "

The Israelis and the Egyptians did and both found oil in the historic area.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=IpyPCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT184&lpg=PT184&dq=biblical+burningbush+leads+to+oil+find&source=bl&ots=l27NUCozZ7&sig=bS0gRedWz1yUTbi96oEp_h2q7dM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZ262SzOjXAhXDk5QKHd2kC3wQ6AEISjAF#v=onepage&q=biblical%20burningbush%20leads%20to%20oil%20find&f=false

for a glimpse.

Here's a bit about the flood.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533

'I have never said that God doesn't exist BUT I know that the Bible is a load of rubbish.'

yep like many op2, you do believe but wave your puny fist and tiny intellect towards your Creator. Your blockage is purely moral not your incapability to reason.

So let's list who the Bible says it is OK for people to kill even though one of the commandments says... Thou shalt not murder!

Remember Mosaic law is Sharia also.

So who does MOSES allege GOD is happy with you believers killing?

Death to Furtune Tellers Leviticus 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood (shall be) upon them.

Killing a Man – What about a woman? Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

Cursing a parent Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood (shall be) upon him.

Not listening to a priest Deuteronomy 17:12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.

Gee no wonder priests & clergy have been able to get away with so many crimes in the past. Does GOD really protect them with death to anyone who won't listen to one?

Following another religion Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto (any) god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Hang on… GOD allows other religions – You just can’t sacrifice to other GODs!

Adultery Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

BUT hang on JESUS made this law even tougher! Ever looked lustfully on a woman who wasn't your wife?

Jesus said Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

More coming....

To Opinionated2.

I have to ask. What God do you believe in? Is it the same one that Christians worship? A simular one? A cosmic force that isn't aware of us, or the sum of the universe? Or something else?

I ask because you say the bible lies about God, so you must have some concept of God without the bible. Is it through prayer, moral contemplation, an experience that can't be explained conventionally?

More people you can kill..

Not seeking the Lord GOD of Israel 2 Chronicles 15:12-13 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Priest daughters Leviticus 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

WHAT? GOD allowed burning to death? REALLY?

Prophecying falsely,- Parents to kill prophet Zechariah 13:3 And it shall come to pass, [that] when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

BUT hang on – Didn’t GOD put false words in the mouths of some prophets? WOW!

1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

AND

2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

So does this mean that a Prophet who GOD put false words into can be murdered with a sword by his parents for being wrong?

Really? And believers believe this?

Blasphemy Leviticus 24:10-16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, (and) all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name (of the LORD), shall be put to death.

BUT hang on JESUS whom many of you call GOD said this

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

And the list goes on...

More...

Working on the Sabbath...Exodus 31:12-15 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it (is) holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth (any) work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Worshipping another GOD...Destroy whole town forever!...Deuteronomy 13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

WHAT? Kill even those who haven’t done wrong? Kill only the cattle? What is it with GOD and cattle? Chickens, goats etc...don’t get punished but cattle do?

Eating from the Tree of Knowledge....Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

AND confirming it

Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which (is) in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

BUT hang on they didn’t surely die on the day they ate. Satan said they wouldn’t! Did GOD lie and Satan tell the truth?

GENESIS 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

This creates a massive problem for believers. Please do not embarrass yourself by adding the word “spiritually” to suit your argument. That would be saying GOD wasn’t smart enough to put it in the first place!

Or this instruction

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

So do you believe GOD would make a woman marry her rapist?

I guess if you believe the Bible is God's word then I guess your mind is that twisted and you shamefully do!

"More coming...."

I was afraid so!

Dear OP2,

What are you trying to prove, and why?

As we know although religion is a universal
social institution, it takes a multitude of forms.

What we are familiar with have been based by ethnocentric
Judeo-Christian ideas about religion. These ideas are based
on a number of central beliefs; that there exists one supreme
being or God; that God created the universe and all of life and
takes a continuing interest in the creation; that there is a
life hereafter; and that our moral behaviour in this life
influences our fate in the next. In cross-cultural terms,
however, this particular combination of beliefs is unusual.
Many religions do not believe in gods at all. Several religions
ignore questions about the origins of the universe and life,
leaving these problems to be dealt with instead by
nonreligious myth. Many religions assume that the gods take
little interest in human affairs.

Some have almost nothing to say about life after death and many
perhaps most do not link our earthly morality with our fate
beyond the grave. Obviously, religion cannot be defined in terms
of Western religious tradition alone.

Instead of citing all the errors to be found in the Bible -
take a look at some positives that religion
offers:

Whatever their source, the rituals enacted
in any religion enhance the solidarity
of the community as well as its faith.
Consider such religious rituals as baptism, bar mitzvah, weddings,
Sabbath services, Christian mass, and funerals. Rituals like
these serve to bring people together; to remind them of their
common group membership; to re-affirm their traditional
values, to maintain prohibitions and taboos, to offer comfort in
times of crisis, and in general to help transmit the cultural
heritage from one generation to the next.

It seems that shared religious beliefs and the rituals that
go with them are important. It seems that every society needs
a religion or at least some belief system that serves
the same functions. And in this fundamental sense religion is
probably here to stay.

Foxy a great post.

The basic principle of Christianity is admiration and emulation of the perfect character [God] and the sacrificial care of one's neighbour.

Atheist philosophies applied in the last 200 years have murdered millions in the attempt to eradicate religion. Op2 thinks he has the answers but he is not addressing the problems of society.

Surely you can’t be talking about the Abrahamic god there, Josephus.

<<The basic principle of Christianity is admiration and emulation of the perfect character [God] …>>

He would have to be one of the most evil characters in all fiction, after all. Not to mention an incompetent and bumbling fool.

<<Atheist philosophies applied in the last 200 years have murdered millions in the attempt to eradicate religion.>>

Well, they were atheistic, at least. However, for some reason it so often needs to be noted here that atheism itself cannot be blamed for those past actions, as there is nothing within atheism to support what the communists did.

I wouldn’t go down the body-count line, if I were you. It’s one you’ll lose.

It amazes me that people can't work out what I am doing here...I am currently showing the Bible is rubbish... It's that simple!

I am being very positive...I'm positive most of you have never realised these verses are there...I am positive that the blind believing Pharisees here like Josephus and Runner will remain blind and bear false witness...I am positive I am telling the truth...Nothing but positives here!

Don't whitewash the truth....So what are we saying there is nothing positive in someone finally telling the truth? You might want to re-think continuing the coverup with benefits stories.

So the religions lying to everyone is a good thing apparently! lmao

Deuteronomy 22:20-21 2 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

Women just can't take a trick under Mosaic Law or Biblical Law... Moses will find a way to kill them somehow...

Not a bad deal for the rich guy... See a woman you like (it doesn't matter if she doesn't like or want to marry you)... have your way with her and she is yours for fifty shekels of silver! BONUS! - She loses either way as she won't show the signs of virginity so he can have her stoned to death the next day after the wedding.

How do believers believe that these laws were from GOD? They are lies and totally anti-God!.

Moses made stuff up and due to believers lack of respect for GOD - They believe it!

I'm positive that the Bible is oppressive to women...

More coming...

Op2;

What do you have to say about the antinomianism teachings of Mohammad?

You might also give us your thoughts Foxy.

Interesting how so many here want to divert the discussion from the Bible to the Quran and to the Mulsim religion. It seems so many people are scared of the truth being told...

Didn't Jesus want the truth?

It is an Abrahamic religion so what I am saying applies to all Abrahamic religions.

Like the Jewish religion they consider Jesus a prophet...

Now of course I won't be diverted because the Bible need exposing. One thing I know though..

Two verses in the Quran relate to cutting the hands off of thieves, a barbaric and wrong practice!

But have you ever thought where they got it from?

Good old Jesus said it and they just formalised the practice...

Jesus said...Matthew 18:8 Wherefore, if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to sin, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.

Now seeing you guys believe that Jesus was at least the son of God or wrongly that Jesus is God... then why did he say it?

His omniscience should have told him how easily a verse like that could be misused by humans.

Matthew 18:8 Is a really stupid thing to say when you think of it!

But enough of that distraction and I am bored with the psychopath Moses so let's cover a few more ridiculous things from the Bible... I'll get back to Moses and the other psychopaths that people call Bible heroes later.

Now one of the most absurd and unintelligent beliefs in believers is that of a bloody talking snake...lol

Yes, you know the snake that is used to scare young children along with the stories of places like hell that don't even exist.

Hey kids - We want you to believe in God and if you don't you will rot in the sulphur lakes of hell for eternity. So is that a good positive thing to lie about to children?

Op2,
Christianity is not about believing in God, It is about applying the righteousness of God to one's life; otherwise your life is wasted for eternity in hell. The spirit of an unrepentant liar, self opinionated proud, sexual pervert, thief or murderer will always be shunned by good character [God].

Well, what do you have to say about the antinomianism teachings of Mohammad?

You do know, of course, what antinomianism is?

You can always look it up on Google.

Opinionated2,

You are coming across as ranting and hysterical, and it’s not helping your case.

You have made a lot of good points (many of which I have made in the past as well), but it’s all for nothing if your tone and delivery are off, as your targeted audience will simply use your tone and delivery as an excuse to disregard what you say, regardless of how valid your points may be.

<<His omniscience should have told him how easily a verse like that could be misused by humans.>>

And that’s all you needed to say. This is the nail in the coffin for Christianity. I made a similar point at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=14398#248464.

Anything that could qualify as a god could communicate what it needed to in a way that surpassed temporal contexts and in a way that could not be misunderstood or misconstrued. The fact that the Bible fails to do this, debunks any understanding of the Christian god - sophisticated or otherwise.

Next topic…

Oh Josephus...Didn't you relate what I was doing to communism? Didn't you say you have read every verse in every English Bible over 40 times?

Haven't you called me an Atheist when I am not? Do you believe God ordered all these people to be murdered like the Bible says.

Do you believe Mosaic law is from God?

See all these lectures from people like you don't wash when you don't actually practice what you preach!

You are a Pharisee and you fall back on simple standard verses to defend your error-filled thinking and logic.

Are you repentant to believing God drowned every innocent baby, every innocent toddler, every innocent infant. every innocent child and every innocent babe still in the womb in a flood that never even happened.

Are you repentant for believing Moses, King David and many others in the Bible are good people when they are scumbags?

Why do you defame God so much believing these horrid lies in the Bible against God?

Let's see you answer this... If I am right, and God never drowned anyone in a flood, and never killed all the firstborn in the Passover and never ordered the Bible scumbags to commit the atrocities they claim God approved of... How would you feel about people like you and the religions saying it was true?

Believing these lies against God is simply taking the Lords name in vain in the worst possible way!

How would you feel about religions that actual celebrate a mass murder that you never committed like the obscene way religions celebrate the Passover?

Exodus 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight THE LORD SMOTE all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

What is it with Moses and bloody cattle...It seems that is all God cares about...lmao

Do you think a repentant heart will forgive a lifetime of believing and spreading lies against God?

So why don't you repent instead?

AJ I am neither ranting or hysterical...I am simply dealing with each person in a way that is different to your methodology.

We have good people on here trying to find middle ground when I haven't finished making my case...
Now to King David...

THE EVIDENCE THAT DAVID WAS AN ADULTEROUS, PSYCHOPATHIC, MURDEROUS WAR CRIMINAL!

David's affair with Bathsheba...

Yep - David was a lovely Psychopath!

David spies a beautiful Bathsheba bathing...She was the wife of Uriah the Hittite who was away at war fighting for King David.

2 Samuel 11 4-5 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (Now she was purifying herself from her monthly uncleanness.) Then she went back home.

The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant.”

That's right David slept and impregnated one of his brave soldiers wives!

So David sent people to get Uriah and tried to encourage Uriah to sleep inside with his wife...Uriah was a loyal man and he wouldn't have any better comforts than those he served with.

2 Samuel 11:11 Uriah said to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents, and my commander Joab and my lord’s men are camped in the open country. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and make love to my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!”

So what did King David do?

He tried to get Uriah drunk so he would sleep with Bathsheba...David was trying to cover up his illicit affair and deceitful act by making it seem like the baby was actually Uriah's!

WOW! King David was so GODlike in his ways!

Again Uriah wouldn't compromise his principles...UNLIKE KING DAVID HE HAD SOME PRINCIPLES!

So what did David do next? He rewarded Uriah's wonderful principles with this

2 Samuel 11:15 In it he David) wrote, “Put Uriah out in front where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.”

David is a Psychopathic war criminal and Bible character isn't he? We should all teach our children to be like him...lol

2 Samuel 11:17 When the men of the city came out and fought against Joab, some of the men in David’s army fell; moreover, Uriah the Hittite died.

So what did this Bible hero do?

2 Samuel 11:26 When Uriah’s wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him. After the time of mourning was over, David had her brought to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing David had done displeased the Lord.

What God was only displeased? What happened to "Though shalt not murder, not commit adultery, not covet?

This story should make your blood boil...But it won't...

GOD wouldn't have allowed this...The story is a pack of lies justifying David's horrid Psychopathic ways...
DSo God intervenes in the most abominable way...if you believe this rubbish.

As punishment GOD says

2 Samuel 12:11-12 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you,and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight.

You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

Yep! There goes God misusing women again...How outrageous! And you believers think this is GOD's word?

GOD organised for a man to commit adultery with the wives? Did the women have any say in it? This story is obviously BS!

And GOD also killed the illegitimate child...The innocent baby was murdered!

12 Samuel 12 :15 After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill.

then

2 Samuel 12 :18 On the seventh day the child died.

Once again your belief in the Bible means you are believeing GOD would make the wives of David female philanderers and GOD would murder an innocent child as punishment!

Opinionated2,

Whether you are ranting or hysterical is irrelevant to what I am saying. The problem is that this is how you are coming across to those with whom you are trying to communicate, and that makes what you’re doing a complete waste of time. They will run with your hysterical tone to dismiss everything you say out of hand.

A better way of going about it is to converse with one person at a time (preferably face to face) and ask them what it is that they believe, and why. You’ll rarely ever de-convert an individual immediately, but you can certainly plant seeds of doubt that will sometimes grow if you do not provide them with excuses to ignore what it is that you have said. Here, I’ll give you an example:

Yuyutsu,

What do you believe, and why?

You see? Nothing. Crickets chirping is the best I’m gonna get from Yuyutsu with that question, because I’ve already been through it all with him and he already understands that he will not be able to answer my question. Yuyutsu only ever responds to people who don’t challenge his beliefs, and that’s where the progress that I have made with him is evident.

If Yuyutsu responds to you, then it means that you have not challenged him and that he believes that he can pull the wool over your eyes with word play. Anyone who receives a response from Yuyutsu should be offended.

We’ll try another…

Josephus,

What do you believe, and why?

You try it now. Ask Is Mise what he believes and why? Keep asking for what their evidence is and, eventually, you will come to something along the lines of: ‘Well, you just gotta have faith.’ You may not de-convert an individual immediately by evoking such a response, but if that that person is in anyway capable of thinking rationally, then the fact that they will have resorted to ‘You just gotta have faith’ will eat at them to the point where they will be forced to question themselves what it is that they believe, and why.

To Opinionated2.

You have quite a bit to go if your going go through everything you find fault with. Would you like a short answer or a long one? Not sure if I'm the guy to give you a long answer. But here is a short one to consider.

The world is broken and full of sin. Not just the days before Noah. Not just Egypt's slavery of Israelites, nor just the people of Caanan who worshipped idols, had prostute shines, and sacrificed children. Even Isreal, God's chosen people are with sin. You've gotten to David but there are wars with the Philiatines, cruelty in the times of the Judges, Kings mentioned only in their order, length of time and whether they lead Isreal into more rightousness or wickedness. Things get bad enough that God sends Isreal out. Exiles them. And here's the big eye opener. God uses a nation that does not serve God, nor does it believe in Him.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Are these lies? Would God not do these things? Look at the world today. Not just back then are the sins and evil put in plain sight on paper; we can see it still today. If God exists and is good then the issue of the place the world is currently in comes up as well.

I'm not saying these things to convince you that God doesn't exist. No far from it I know that He does. But I want you to consider that the current observable world is not innocent. That evil and terrible people terrorizing the world at large fill the pockets of every society. If God exists and is loving then He does so in spite of all of this.

God is loving, but He is also severe in His judgments. After all He is contending with an evil and broken world. What else can be done that would get our attention? Looking back at what I know from history, not much gets our attention unless it is drastic or it affects us personally.

The bible does not change this perspective. It does challenge us. Both on pointing out the sins of just about everyone in it should be a challenge to us to think about our own lives and our own actions. But it should also challenge us on our views of God. God loving and shows His mercy and forgiveness a lot. But He is not a pushover, a doormat to walk over, or anyone to not take seriously.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Earlier when I asked you about the God you believe in and how you knew of Him, I had these things in mind. Because God is in charge and is good, but the world is not. What God do you believe in that does not deal with death when there is so much death in the world. What picture of man do you have that makes anyone and everyone a innocent victim instead of something more. A piece of a broken world, that might be more innocent, or less innocent then the world that allows the person to suffer. Please consider this, because I ask it sincerely. What God do you worship?

God deals with us on an indivual level, a global level, and every level in between. From family community, nation, to those who hold specific sins to those who hold places of power, and those who might be scattered through the the world but are counted as together because of a simular behavior, or simular station in the world. Yet on every level we all think we are innocent, even though we can see by the world that there is evil in it. How can that be? But also on every level God has sent his message for our being able to be reunited with Him. With the one condition outside of belief. To be forgiving and merciful because we were shown mercy and were forgiven.

A good post Not_Now.Soon, "To be forgiving and merciful because we were shown mercy and were forgiven". Op2, seems to be struggling with anger and lack of forgiveness, so he is fighting to injure what he considers an enemy. His rants have nothing to do with out experience of reality.

You guys can waffle on with your traditional gobbledy goog explanations as much as your naive minds wish...but you are still wrong. You trivialize the evil committed by Bible scumbags and ignore it!

You believe God supported and approved of atrocities...Why are you so keen to ignore these horror stories?

KING DAVID - PSYCHOPATHIC WAR CRIMINAL!

Why don't churches teach how evil David was?

Like all Psychopaths and criminals he had a soft side BUT do his actions show how ugly King David really was?

From what seems a modest start in

2Samuel 8:1 And after this it came to pass, that David smote the Philistines, and subdued them: and David took Methegammah out of the hand of the Philistines.

By the second verse David has begun is war crimes.

2Samuel 8:2 David also defeated the Moabites. He made them lie down on the ground and measured them off with a length of cord. Every two lengths of them were put to death, and the third length was allowed to live. So the Moabites became subject to David and brought him tribute.

So after he had vanquished the Moabites he took the prisoners, and simply slaughtered two thirds of the captives...

REALLY would GOD approve of this? DO YOU APPROVE OF THIS?

Now if David thought this was reasonable behaviour how many other people's did he do this too and it was such common place that it was no longer necessary to document?

He defeated the Philistines...The King of Zobah and his army ... He defeated Arameans of Damascus.....He defeated the Edomites in the Valley of Salt....

Then the Chapter says this....

2Samuel 8:15 David reigned over all Israel, doing what was just and right for all his people.

He may have been just and right to his fellow Israelites but was he just and right in the war crimes he committed? Sorry but NO!

Now don't try to justify David's actions as of the time because everything David did was approved of by GOD... The same GOD you guys believe in today!

Why does your God support war criminals?

Further to the story of course is that David's grandmother Ruth was a Moabite...and the Moabites had hidden David when he was on the run from King Saul...

Ruth 4:17 The women living there said, “Naomi has a son!” And they named him Obed. He was the father of Jesse, the father of David.

So how did David repay his protectors and his grandmother's people? He slaughtered two thirds of the captives and the other third were made slaves.

Was he gay OR bisexual?

Were David and Jonathon Gay?

1Samuel 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

Maybe this is why Saul wanted to kill David... Maybe he was jealous of Jonathon and his daughter having affairs with David. David playing with Saul's hand is very worrying for anti-gay believers

then

1Samuel 20:41-42 As soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of (a place) toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded.

1Samuel 20:4 Then said Jonathan unto David, Whatsoever thy soul desireth, I will even do it for thee.

2Samuel 1:26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.

But God is anti-gay...:)

KING DAVID - PSYCHOPATHIC WAR CRIMINAL!...Cont

King David was pure evil!....He had a Holocaust similar to Hitler.

2Samuel 12:29-31 And David gathered all the people together, and went to Rabbah, and fought against it, and took it.

And he took their king's crown from off his head, the weight whereof was a talent of gold with the precious stones: and it was set on David's head. And he brought forth the spoil of the city in great abundance.

And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem.

Fancy believers not realising that David had death camps.

He sliced the captives, he diced the captives and then he destroyed the evidence in kilns. SHAMEFUL!

Somehow though believers believe David was Godly...WRONG!

Keep up the good work believers - Your entire religions are built on the works of Psychopaths, Liars and War criminals.

Some of you even admit to knowing these horrors yet still trust the Bible...lmao

1Kings 11:15 For it came to pass, when David was in Edom, and Joab the captain of the host was gone up to bury the slain, after he had smitten every male in Edom;

It took 6 months to do all this...Yep more innocent male children murdered. All done in the name of God....

David was big on ethnic cleansing.

Back to 1 Chronicles 20:3 for a second...

1Chronicles 20:3 And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. And David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.

David didn't just commit these war crimes and ethnic cleansings in a few cities...He did it everywhere andin all the cities of the Ammonites!

David was a scumbag who used God's name to justify his evil!

Op2,

You might do well to consider the proposition put forward by Max Ehrlich that the Earth is but a speck of dust in the Cosmos and that humanity is a sub-microorganism that lives on it.

That puts us into some sort of perspective.

You're reading the wrong holy book, dude.

The true word of God is here:

http://www.klps.pl/pliki/gospel_fsm_eng.pdf

And I know that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. There's a video on youtube and everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7FcvEydqg

I hear-tell that there is a book around that some fools find rather compelling. It’s a children’s book called “Animal Farm”. Basically it purports to claim that farmyard animals can talk and can organise themselves for their own benefit. Clearly the book contains innumerable errors because animals can’t talk – or at least can’t speak English. Nonetheless many adults believe this book. Fools.
The author, someone named Eric something, was so ashamed of the book that he hid his identity and said others wrote it under his inspiration.

Hilariously these admirers of the book assert that it ought to be read on multiple levels. Can you imagine it?…a book that can mean different things to different people depending on their age and background. How improbable is that? (BTW have I mentioned the book contains errors?). Not only that but they think that if you read the book on these other levels it contains (hidden?) messages and lessons for modern man. How can that be? (Did-I-point-out-the-book-contains-errors?)

Multiple levels? I’m of a superior intellect to these fools and I can tell you right here and now that there are never multiple levels. Every book means exactly and ONLY what it literally says. No deeper meanings. No ‘other’ levels.

Some have tried to explain the other levels to me but I always belittle their views by pointing out that animals can’t speak. They are left without a counter argument. Dills. Even more disturbing, the book contains a character called Moses which is a talking bird with religious overtones. Do I need to point out that no such creature has ever existed? Yet these people think that what this Moses person says actually has some value and hidden messages. But birds can’t speak and certainly can’t speak religion.

Disturbingly there appears to be a lot of fools out there who think that books can have meaning other than their literal understanding…books like ‘Alice in Wonderland’, ‘1984’, Aesop etc. But those of my intellectual standard know full well that no such hidden lessons ever exist. (aren’t I wonderful?)

Oh, did I mention animals can’t talk

Is Mise,

Just a little more on your Noah story. The full theory relates to melting of the ice fields in Canada around 7000 years ago as the last ice age came to a close. The idea was that the ice around the present-day Hudson melted slower than the ice in central Canada thus forming a plug to the growing mass of melt-water. Then the plug suddenly gave way which caused a massive amount of water to flow into the Atlantic and the Mediterranean.

It seems there is a natural dam of sorts in the Dardanelles which held back the Mediterranean Sea from the then smaller fresh water Black Sea. The sudden rise in the Med overwhelmed this natural dam and the Black Sea flooded.

The theory is that this is the basis of the Gilgamesh/Noah story.

There are also flood stories from around the world in places like China, Japan, South America and Greece (Atlantis).

This theory of the sudden world-wide deluge emanating from Canada rather eloquently offers understanding of all these stories.

mhaze,

You’re terrible at sarcasm, but your point is sound enough (which is why I suggested to Opinionated2 that he/she ask what individuals believe first). I look forward to your input when the Qur’an is portrayed as only having one possible meaning to all Muslims, and that Muslims who claim otherwise must necessarily be deceiving us.

Dear mhaze,

Perhaps the following link may clarify things
for you:

http://www.enotes.com/topics/animal-farm/in-depth

Hi Foxy
If Opiniated2 has time , you could recommend this :

Get Free Access to this Animal Farm Study Guide
Start your 48-hour free trial to unlock this resource and thousands more.
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Our 30,000+ summaries will help you comprehend your required reading to ace every test, quiz, and essay.

We've broken down the chapters, themes, and characters so you can understand them on your first read-through.

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Why would anybody think I worship a God? Do you really think that God is so insecure and unintelligent as to require worship. I think he knows he's God already...lol

You will notice none of the believers here are commenting on the verses themselves...That is typical as they simply haven't got any answers....lol

Now back to this verse...

1Samuel 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

So God does have an evil spirit that he sends to infect people?...Is that correct? And if you wrongly believe Jesus and God are the same being then Jesus sends evil spirits to people... OOPS!

Now I wouldn't say such a thing but you guys believe the Bible is God's word and so I guess you must believe it.

Apparently God said...

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things.

Of course Isaiah made this up but again you guys believe this rubbish...lol

But hangon you also believe in the lie of Original Sin and the lie about an evil talking snake that God created..

Can you insult God in any worse way than believing and spreading these lies against him?

The whole creating of the Nephalim is another ridiculous story Bible believers accept without thinking.

So what was the reason for the flood that never happened?

Well it all starts when GOD allegedly casts Satan and the fallen angels to Earth...GOD's omniscience means GOD had to know the outcome of that action or GOD isn't all knowing!

Genesis 6:2 That the Sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

The fallen angels were already infecting humans. But only the ones they chose - NOT ALL HUMANS!

Did GOD stop it...NOPE! Did he answer the believers prayers? Nope! Believer's believe GOD decided to punish all mankind for GOD's own error!

Cont...

To Opinionated2.

[Why would anybody think I worship a God? Do you really think that God is so insecure and unintelligent as to require worship. I think he knows he's God already...lol]

Gotchya. You believe in a god that has no care about you or your closeness to it. Whereas the God I know is the only real God, and knows that our finding Him is for our benifit. Thanks for the clarification.

It sounds like you want a long answer. Verse by verse explaination of the verses you put up here. Tell ya what, it'll be easier to just recommend that you look for God, the real one. Search out the one that answers prayers. If yours can do that then we'll talk about how any of these verses are lies, because you can give something to show that God written about in the bible is not the real God that answers prays.

As of now it seems like you just don't know who God is, and can't make sense of it.

Op2,

There is truth in the Bible,

"Chronologically, the next approximation of pi is found in the Old Testament. A fairly well known verse, 1 Kings 7:23, says: "Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about" (Blatner, 13). This implies that pi = 3. Debates have raged on for centuries about this verse. According to some it was just a simple approximation, while others say that "... the diameter perhaps was measured from outside, while the circumference was measured from inside" (Tsaban, 76). However, most mathematicians and scientists neglect a far more accurate approximation for pi that lies deep within the mathematical "code" of the Hebrew language. In Hebrew, each letter equals a certain number, and a word's "value" is equal to the sum of its letters. Interestingly enough, in 1 Kings 7:23, the word "line" is written Kuf Vov Heh, but the Heh does not need to be there, and is not pronounced. With the extra letter , the word has a value of 111, but without it, the value is 106. (Kuf=100, Vov=6, Heh=5). The ratio of pi to 3 is very close to the ratio of 111 to 106. In other words, pi/3 = 111/106 approximately; solving for pi, we find pi = 3.1415094... (Tsaban, 78). This figure is far more accurate than any other value that had been calculated up to that point, and would hold the record for the greatest number of correct digits for several hundred years afterwards. Unfortunately, this little mathematical gem is practically a secret, as compared to the better known pi = 3 approximation.

http://sites.math.rutgers.edu/~cherlin/History/Papers2000/wilson.html

NNS...I think you got yourself...You just bore false witness against me!

I never said..."You believe in a god that has no care about you or your closeness to it." You are a Pharisee! Gotchya...Thanks for the clarification...You are a liar!...lmao

So do you believe in the Bible God?...What Religion, Church brand or denomination do you belong to?

Continuing on....from my last post.

If it isn't an error then aren't saying either GOD intentionally sabotaged his own creation, humans and animals, or the story is WRONG! AND AN INSULT TO GOD. You choose!

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

According to the false story GOD punishes the wrong beings! Some humans were infected by these fallen angels because GOD cast them down to Earth...Your Bible says GOD got it wrong...so GOD shortened human lives! Really? Does GOD punish the innocent? You choose!

Where did GOD's righteousness go? Where is the justice? Believers in the flood have just made GOD into a lowly being who can't take responsibility for his own actions!

So GOD allows the breeding and the Nephilim are created...No mention of what happened to the "Sons of GOD", the fallen angels! Oops

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

WHAT? GOD is omniscient he knew this would happen! But were the innocent babies, innocent toddlers, innocent infants, innocent children and innocent babes still in the womb, evil?

Aren't we referred to as an evil generation? Are your children wicked? Are your children Evil? Do you think they deserve to be drowned?

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

WHAT? You guys believe GOD sabotages humans and it is our fault?

Your Bible says GOD's alleged action of casting the fallen angels down to Earth undermined his creations.

cont...You believe GOD made a huge mistake which undid his original assessment of what he created, and it is our fault? IS GOD UNINTELLIGENT, ILLOGICAL AND CORRUPT? This is what the Bible indicates!

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

He saw everything was VERY GOOD! You must believe GOD to be a psychopathic male to deliberately sabotage his creations...The BIBLE alleges GOD stuffed up and blamed someone else...Humankind! Typical men!

The religions and the believers by believing this story falsely do that same!

So how does GOD allegedly cook the books? Does GOD do the right thing?

You must believe - Nope not this GOD, he throws a temper tantrum and decides to wipe out mankind and all the animals.

WHY DIDN'T HE WIPE OUT SATAN AND THE FALLEN ANGELS WHEN THEY REBELLED & NOT KILL INNOCENTS?

Why didn't he re-educate us humans with them gone?

One click of his fingers and we were re-educated...He could have even taken back his stupid tree of knowledge...ANOTHER CRAZY IDEA!

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD IS THIS IMBECILIC? You just do!

Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Wait a minute!

Believers now believe GOD now turns on all the animals for his unjust blame game. He wants to drown all the animals also! What had they done? Were there genes tainted also?

Did they sleep with the angels too? Can the story get any sillier?

The story is starting to sound like a load of falsified garbage isn't it? You believe it! But REMEMBER you are choosing to insult GOD by believing it!

Why do you believe these ridiculous stories that undermine God? Is worshipping God believing God is as unintelligent as you are?...lol

cont...Let's recap the BIBLE alleges, and religions teach and believer's believe

GOD creates everything, he creates Satan and the fallen angels who try to overthrow him, he throws them down to earth, they sleep with some human woman whom they choose as wives (not all human women), GOD decides to punish all humans and animals for everything whilst doing nothing to Satan and the fallen angels again, and then drowns everyone except 8 humans and some animals and that makes sense? You choose!

But REMEMBER you are choosing to insult GOD by believing it!

The fact that any believer believes this rubbish astounds me! The fact that it is usually taught as fact is a disgrace!

This story says GOD isn't omniscient, GOD isn't intelligent, GOD isn't just, GOD isn't GODlike, GOD isn't a GOD of love and GOD doesn't take responsibility for the decisions GOD takes!

This story says GOD IS a mass murderer, is deceiptful, is involved in infanticide, is unjust, is a coward, is unintelligent and is a failure!

If you believe in the Biblical story of the flood this is what believer's believe... I DON'T!

WHY DO BELIEVERS BELIEVE SUCH HORRID THINGS AGAINST GOD!

Somehow they can turn all this horrid unGODly behaviour as falsified by Moses in his unintelligent ravings around and claim GOD is loving, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent!

The story is a load of rubbish!

It's OK I'll defend GOD and believers can believe the rubbish against GOD!

AFTERALL, IT IS YOUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THESE HORRIFIC STORIES THAT DENIGRATE GOD TOTALLY!

But be warned ...

Believe GOD is a mass murderer that drowns innocents in a flood that never happened at your own risk!

So why are you hate GOD so much by believing these stories that totally denigrate and undermine GOD believers?

What did GOD do to you guys for you to hate him so much?

Did you notice your fairytale writer even said "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth" but he didn't even get that right...lmao

//Whereas the God I know is the only real God//

Well that can't be right. I posted incontrovertible video evidence of the existence of another god in my last post.

Foxy,

Thanks for the link but I think I already well-understand Animal Farm...as much as it is possible to fully understand the nuances of someone as insightful as Orwell. I was doing a satirical piece on how Op2 would talk about the multi-layered meanings of the book given his inability to understand the essence of the Bible.

AJP,

Perhaps you ought to research the difference between sarcasm and satire.

" I look forward to your input when the Qur’an is portrayed as only having one possible meaning to all Muslims, and that Muslims who claim otherwise must necessarily be deceiving us."

Well when that comes up I'll be happy to discuss and compare the Bible's OT/NT to the Koran's Meccan/Medinan texts. Actually I think I've already had that discussion in these pages.Perhaps you could go back and check given your expertise at trolling through other's prior posts..now that's sarcasm. :)

Where's David Singer when you need him?

Oh the Bible has an essence?..lmao... It like, it's believers, has a putrid toxic acceptance of lies, deceit, mass murder, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, oppression of women and psychopathic behaviour...It's more an unGodly stench...lmao

The fact is the Bible in many places is a propaganda tool to justify the evil crimes your unGodly Bible heroes and you guys have fallen for it...Come in suckers!

So Paul, Moses, and David were creeps, what about Solomon?

He was a womaniser who defied God! He had 700 wives and 300 concubines and bedded women forbidden by God.

Solomon was a man whore!

1Kings 11:1-3 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;

Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, YE SHALL NOT GO INTO THEM, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

So sexual indiscretion and outright defiance of GOD where Solomon was concerned DIDN'T cost him his Kingdom as Solomon died of natural causes at about the age of 80.

He was also pretty good at killing and burning innocent animals also!

1 Kings 3:4 And the king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there; for that was the great high place: a thousand burnt offerings did Solomon offer upon that altar.

What about his dream allegedly from GOD...lmao

1Kings 3:111-12 And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment;

Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.

So Solomon's dream was full of self praise...lmao

Solomon couldn't keep his pants on and GOD must have known that. If Jesus is God as many of you believe wrongly, Why was he so accepting of Solomon's using of women?

What was the rule about adultery again?

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Seems Jesus/GOD had one rule for Solomon and another rule for us, if you believe this stuff ...doesn't it?

1Kings 11:5-6 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.

Oh yes and typical of the Bible it was the women's fault...GOD must hate women if you believe this rubbish!

1Kings 11:10-11 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.

Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant

But did GOD give it to his servant?

1Kings 11:43 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

Even though allegedly 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel refused to accept Rehoboam as King... GOD didn't give it to Solomon's servant as he threatened in 1Kings 11-11.

So does GOD make idol threats also?

And you people believe this stuff...is God's waord...lmao

The Bible heroes are looking more like Bible pigs aren't they?...lmao

//And you people believe this stuff...is God's waord//

No we don't.

Op2,

"Solomon couldn't keep his pants on....

Did Solomon wear trousers?

"So does GOD make idol threats also?"

Well, I guess that He did threaten idols.

The Op2 Show; a laugh a minute!

Dear OP2,

I still don't understand why you're so set on proving that
what's in the Bible is wrong.

Recent Gallup polls
show that a high percentage of the population know their
astrological "sign", and an equally high percentage
believe that their lives are governed by the stars.

Many believe in one or more of such practices as fortune-telling,
palmistry, numerology, tarot-card reading, and seances with the
dead. Many people believe in reincarnation. All these beliefs
and practices run directly contrary to the teachings of the
established churches, yet they thrive in our societies.

Many people, too, adhere to an "invisible" or "silent"
religion, acknowledging a supreme but unknowable force in the
universe. And new sects and cults appear in unprecedented
profusion, offering the prospect of further religious growth
in new directions in the future.

What we see is that there will be growing religious diversity
in the future, reflecting the increasing individualism and
diversity of our societies. Particularly in times of
uncertainty and rapid social change, people in the future may
look, as they have in the past, to religious values to
stabilise and revitalise their culture. It may well be the
case, in fact, that the need for religion will eventually
re-assert itself most powerfully in precisely those
societies that have become the most industrialised, rationalised
and materialistic.

For many years it was widely felt that as science progressively
provided rational explanations for the mysteries of the
universe, religion would have less and less of a role to play
and would eventually disappear, unmasked as nothing more than
superstition. But there are still gaps in our understanding
that science can never fill. On the ultimately important
questions - of the meaning and purpose of life and the nature
of morality - science is silent.

Few citizens of modern societies would utterly deny the
possibility of some higher power in the universe, some
supernatural, transcendental realm that lies beyond the
boundaries of ordinary experience, and as I've stated in
the past in this fundamental sense religion is probably
here to stay.

It’s come up quite a few times, mhaze.

<<Well when that comes up I'll be happy to and compare the Bible's OT/NT to the Koran's Meccan/Medinan texts. >>

Perhaps the occasions that I'm thinking of all happened on one of your extended breaks from OLO?

I'm not sure what comparing the two Testaments with the Qur'an's Meccan and Medinan have to do with anything, though. Was that an attempt at suggesting that it's more forgivable to assume universal acceptance of a single interpretation of what the Qur'an says than it is to do the same with regards to the Bible?

I do like discussions on the differences and relationship between the Old Testament and the New Testament, though. Most here appear to know nothing beyond the naive assumption that Jesus came to chuck the Old Testament out, and that it is all sunshine and lollipops from here on in.

<<Perhaps you could go back and check given your expertise at trolling through other's prior posts..now that's sarcasm.>>

Why would that be sarcasm unless you were suggesting that I was terrible at it? Given that you resorted to ad hominem by attempting to make me look obsessive the last time I quoted the past comments of others (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=7994#247733), I would hardly think that you thought my ability to search thoroughly was terrible.

Looks like you could do with a bit of brushing up on what sarcasm is yourself.

Well, well, well, mhaze.

I decided to have a bit of a look for one of these posts which you were presumably referring to.

<<Actually I think I've already had that discussion in these pages [comparing the Bible's OT/NT to the Koran's Meccan/Medinan texts].Perhaps you could go back and check given your expertise at trolling through other's prior posts …>>

And it appears my suspicions were right:

“But here's the thing..the NT supersedes the OT for Christians where they conflict,” (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18849#336027)

And look at that, I even corrected you:
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18849#336036
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18849#336040

I’d forgotten about that discussion entirely. Apparently, you did too.

AJP

"It’s come up quite a few times, mhaze."

Previously you said you looked FORWARD to my discussing it when it came up. Now you're talking about the past discussions. So you're looking forward to me discussing it in the past!!??

Actually almost exactly two years, here's what I wrote:

"The problem with an Islamic reformation is that there is no obvious viable path for it.

The fundamental difference between the Bible and the Koran, at least as regards this issue, is that, in the Bible, the parts that a modern liberal society want to reject (the Old Testament) were written first and the more liberal sections (New Testament) later. The Bible's focus (Jesus) was a relatively (for that time) gentle soul who enjoined his followers to "do unto others..", "love one another", "Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to cast a stone" and so on. So the path for the Christian reformers was laid out since much of the old ways were rescinded by the more recent Jesus/Paul and their successors.

Not so with Islam. The opposite in fact. The gentler more liberal parts of the Koran came first. The more war-like, blood-thirsty, doctrinaire parts came later and were the last written. They, according to the Koran itself, supercede the earlier pronouncements.

Christianity could reform without rejecting or downgrading Jesus. But an Islamic reform has to reject vast swaths of their prophet's acts and pronouncements. That's a much tougher call especially since the very core of Islam states that Mohamed was perfect and everything he said and did was both correct and to be emulated.

Hersi Ali calls for Islam to adhere to the Meccan Koran and reject the Medinan Koran and that would be good for Islam and the world. But how Islam gets there is unknowable. How does Islam reject and/or ignore half of its texts, and the most recent half, and remain Islam?"

OP2 is not disproving the bible, he/she is trying to prove that their morality is higher than that of God. Unbelievably arrogant and no doubt totally deceived. Still not suprising when you have been handed over to the lie that we came from slime. Slimey theology and god denying is the very obvious result.

That’s right, mhaze.

<<Previously you said you looked FORWARD to my discussing it when it came up. Now you're talking about the past discussions.>>

Because your response suggested that it had not yet come up (or that you had at least not seen it come up yet). A few months back, there was quite a flurry of such discussions with the mentioning of taqiyya and such. I’m sorry you missed it.

<<So you're looking forward to me discussing it in the past!!??>>

No.

Regarding the Bible and the Qur’an, I would agree that a viable path to reformation of Islam appears to be far more difficult and would require more mental gymnastics than simply pretending that Jesus came to chuck out the Old Testament when it’s inconvenient and contradicts the sometimes-contradictory teachings of Jesus.

<<Hersi Ali calls for Islam to adhere to the Meccan Koran and reject the Medinan Koran and that would be good for Islam and the world. But how Islam gets there is unknowable. How does Islam reject and/or ignore half of its texts, and the most recent half, and remain Islam?">>

That’s a good question. I would recommend ‘Islam and the Future of Tolerance: A Dialogue’ with Sam Harris and Majid Nawaz, where they discuss precisely this, if you’re interested. Preferably the audiobook, where they go into further discussion based on questions which readers had after the publication of the book.

Op2,
Worship is admiration of a person: are the people in your life whom you admire and praise so insecure you have to give them praise. No you wouldn't do that. It is obvious you do nor admire or praise anyone just desire to undermine their security.

OMG! For the first time I will have to agree with Runner and the other Pharisees here...The Bible is destroying the Bible not me....lmao

The invasion of Jesus' religion is complete with the Pharisees having taken it over completely.

Paul the lying Pharisee gutted Jesus' work and all the nodding dog believers just fell into line.

They don't follow Jesus... they follow Paul!

And what are the results of following Paul? No-one who follows Jesus can oppress women!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-23/clergy-wives-speak-out-domestic-violence/9168096

or

Rampant child abuse and the covering up of crimes... No-one who follows Jesus can cover up the crimes of child abuse.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-06/royal-commission-into-child-sexual-abuse-begins-in-sydney/8242600

That's what you get when you totally ignore the horrid crimes committed by the religious against humanity. That's what you get when you follow a book and don't comprehend the horrors within!

So how many people here still attend a church or denomination which has covered up child abuse?

How many people here still go to a church or religion that teaches Paul and thus approves of the oppression of women? Oh all of you!

No protest...No problems...No future worries... All's fine and dandy?

You have Bible characters getting away with all manner of evil and yet you can't see it!

Jesus must be so proud of you all!

So much for Do unto others... You are failures! But worse you have failed to protect Jesus' religion from the Pharisaical attack by becoming one of the Pharisees.

Jesus left a pretty sound system and you guys have butchered it!

The trinity doctrine is anti-Christ, the teachings of Paul are anti-Christ and the actions of men against women and the oppressing of others are anti-Christ..

If you want to see a talking snake... go look in the mirror! lmao

CONGRATULATIONS!

Op2,

"So how many people here still attend a church or denomination which has covered up child abuse?"

Well, I for one because covering up child abuse is not a teaching of that church or the religion of which it is a part.

Are you going to leave Australian society because members of that society have been guilty of child abuse despite it being against the laws of your society?

much of the catholic abuse was homosexual in nature.

And the excuses from the Pharisees, for deliberately not following Jesus, begin...

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

So you are relating leaving a Church over child abuse to the same as leaving your country of birth Dizzy Issy...lmao...Pathetic!

You are the complete Pharisee...lmao

I think it is time for the Bible test...Part1

Let's see how believers do when they are called to account on the Commandments. Afterall, they all talk about these things, they all lecture on these things, BUT, do they really follow what they say they believe and what is expected from GOD?

Jesus' clear instruction is to keep the commandments!

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And God spoke all these words, saying:

“Exodus 20:1-3 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

You shall have no other gods before me.

Is Jesus GOD or God a separate entity and son?

For your consideration: John 1:18 NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Exodus 20:4-6 You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me,

but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Got any crosses in your house or around your neck? It clearly states you should not "make for yourself any carved images" whatsoever. What does it say about things that can be made from molten metals?

Cont...

Op2,
The physicality of Jesus was not God, however his character, actions and wisdom revealed God. He was the Word of God, the expression of God.

https://billmuehlenberg.com/2017/12/04/roots-west-decline-possible-renewal/

Op2,

If you were a member of a political party would you leave it because some of the executive were convicted of child abuse?

Issy You are floundering badly...lmao

Bibletest Pt2...

LOOK!...there are more conditions in other verses.

Leviticus 26:1...Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

So it can't be "any likeness of anything" from Heaven above, from on the Earth or from Under the sea....

A standing cross is also a graven image as is the image of a cross engraved in stone. A gold embossed cross on a book would also fail the test and be a graven image.

OMG Churches with crosses... Naughty!

It gets worse. No graven or Molten images! Do they melt metal to make crosses?

Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.

Isaiah gets really fired up and offers the solution.

Isaiah 30:22 Ye shall defile also the covering of thy graven images of silver, and the ornament of thy molten images of gold: thou shalt cast them away as a menstruous cloth; thou shalt say unto it, Get thee hence.

The Bible is clear on what GOD requires. No wonder believers want to ditch the law...

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Ever said "Oh My God"? Jesus, look at that? etc.

Now on the Jesus/GOD issue. If Jesus is GOD why does he contradict Commandment 3 where he is concerned?

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

If the Trinity were true Jesus wouldn't have said this! This just doesn’t make sense if JESUS is GOD.

Cont...

Well, I’ll answer your question, Is Mise, because I think it’s a very good one.

<<If you were a member of a political party would you leave it because some of the executive were convicted of child abuse?>>

No, I probably wouldn’t.

If, on the other hand, this political party had been systematically shuffling around their executive for decades in order to evade conviction, then, yes, I would leave that political party - whether or not such behaviour was condoned by the party’s platform - because that would make that political party a criminal organisation.

Just like the Catholic Church is.

Opininated2
Have a go at this bloke , David Singer,in Articles section:
United Nations loses the plot in ignoring Israel-Jordan reality.

AJ,

But were they moving them around to avoid conviction?

Or were they moving them to avoid embarrassment?

Or were they moving them around because they believed that the offenders had repented and that they deserved another chance?

The organization that you mention is in the business of giving the transgressor another chance.

Wow, Is Mise, I can’t believe you just said any of that.

Does it make a difference why they do what they do? No, it doesn’t, because there are still victims involved who deserve justice and recognition, and a law which is being transgressed.

<<Or were they moving them around because they believed that the offenders had repented and that they deserved another chance?>>

They can have their second chance after they have served their sentence. The perpetrator’s interests do not take precedence over a victim’s interests, nor the interests of society which demand that justice be done.

<<The organization that you mention is in the business of giving the transgressor another chance.>>

That organisation is also not above the law, no matter how much it thinks it is, nor is it in a position to decide what action should be taken when the law has been broken.

More Pharisaical diversionary tactics... AJ nailed you Issy!

Commandments Cont....

Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

What day do people go to Church? Sunday isn't the Sabbath. The Pharisees often criticised Jesus about the Sabbath and the Jewish Sabbath is definitely from sundown Friday till sundown Saturday.

Wasn’t Jesus Jewish? :OOPS!:

How do we get to change the Sabbath to Sundays?

Exodus 20:12 Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

Do believers always Honor their father and mother?

OOps hang on Jesus said

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

See a CONTRADICTION HERE?

Exodus 20:13You shall not kill.

Even though you probably haven't murdered anyone was your country settled by people who would call themselves Christians and were the natives murdered?

Exodus 20:14 You shall not commit adultery.

Ever looked lustfully on a woman who wasn't your wife?

Jesus said

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Every person I have ever known has failed that one. Gee that Jesus was tough on believers!

You guys will argue the Bible is God's word but you never follow it...lol

More to come...

So you're not here to discuss anything ,opinionated ?
"Not with this name , eh?"

Cont...

Exodus 20:15 You shall not steal.

Our country was stolen from Aborigines! Why did the Christians who went to Australia, South America, the USA, Canada and the likes covet and steal?

HUGE PROBLEM : If you buy a watch from a thief and you know it is stolen are you committing a crime? YES! You would be guilty of knowingly receiving stolen goods. Even if you don’t know the goods were stolen it is a crime. So as the land we live on was stolen we knowingly live on stolen land.

BUT WORSE, the churches in our country are all built on STOLEN land!

I wonder how GOD will feel about all these buildings being built on stolen land?

Maybe you should contemplate this next time your are sitting in Church!

Exodus 20:16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Have you ever done this, ever? False witness is a very broad statement. You can't say anything incorrect about anyone without bearing false witness! Gee I have had plenty of believers bear false witness of me on here just because I point out the problems they have never contemplated.

Exodus 20:17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.” Ever wanted what someone else owns?

Hang on that is how our countries were settled Christians coveted, Christians stole!

So believers can you answer these questions honestly? Honesty is apparently a Christian trait. Isn't it?

Remember believers Jesus is watching you!

Jesus the one you allegedly worship said this

Mark 7:7-9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.

For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

Then he said, “You skilfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.

So what was your mark, Christians...Is 5 or 6 out of 10 acceptable?

If you haven't considered these problems - Are you openly defying God?

Should you really call yourself a Christian?

//Or were they moving them around because they believed that the offenders had repented and that they deserved another chance?//

Absolution is not a get out of jail free card, Is Mise. It's a get out of hell free card.

AJ,

"Wow, Is Mise, I can’t believe you just said any of that"

But I did, as alternatives to your statement.

Anyway, the number of priests in the Catholic Church who molested children is a small proportion and there is no reason to leave an organization because a few of the management team go against the teachings of the founder.

Issy is pathetically trying to find a way to let religions off the hook regarding child abuse. Shameful! Issy!

Christians are great at saying sorry...They very rarely are sorry from my experience but this repent rubbish lets them off the hook on all manner of wrong doings.

When I see a Church leader say "we are sorry" or I see a prayer vigil for those who have been abused, it sickens me to my stomach! What a crock!

There was a very long thread on abuse in the Catholic Church where we all went into some very detailed discussions...Try looking at that!

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3556&page=0#92343

Now back to the Bible and how people who claim to be Christian simply aren't they are Paulian!

The great lie...The Trinity.

Big HINT: You guys fail because you always follow men BUT it is what JESUS SAYS that are the important things. So before you post some ridiculous Bible quote check to see if it is a man talking - Bible men, like you believers, are always wrong!

The Trinity was invented prior to the Council of Nicea?

Debate was raging in Rome over this one issue prior to the Council and so to keep peace in Constantine's Rome they formalised it as the trinity.

So let's see what Jesus says...do you remember Jesus?...lol

Jesus the one you allegedly worship said these things. By believing the Trinity you are calling Jesus a liar again!

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus states don't call me good ONLY GOD is good! This is an outright separation of Jesus and GOD isn't it? Jesus said it!

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 5:37 Jesus says "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

Jesus states...No-one has seen GOD and yet Jesus/GOD was sitting in front of them...How can this be?... He can't be God!

More to come..

and...

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He ascends to GOD...They are separate!

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

So "he goes" to the father who is greater than Jesus so how can Jesus be GOD?...If they were the same wouldn't they be equal?

WAS JESUS PRETENDING HERE?

Matthew 26:39 “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Was he praying to himself?...Why would he throw himself on the ground requesting GOD not make him suffer?...If Jesus was GOD he wouldn't have said this!

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Both have life in themselves...Why does Jesus separate what is supposedly the same?

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Without GOD Jesus can do nothing...It's GOD's will Jesus seeks not his own. GOD sent Jesus to Earth!

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

The son sees the father do things and then emulates GOD?...Is the penny dropping yet?

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

Matthew 6:9 Our Father, which art in Heaven hallowed be thy name.

Was Jesus praying to himself?...And isn't heaven supposedly within? How can Jesus tell them to pray to the father when you guys believe he is both the father and the son?

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus pleads to know why GOD had foresaken him....If Jesus is GOD this makes no sense at all. Is he pleading with himself asking why he has foresaken himself?...So by ignoring this are you saying GOD and Jesus are illogical?

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 17:21-23 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This defines how Jesus defines "being as one", if we can be one with Jesus and GOD what is he saying here?

I can't be Jesus or GOD so when he uses the words "as one" he is talking in a spiritual sense, being on the same page and understanding, NOT being one entity.

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Question: So we can be GOD also? NO! Jesus further explains oneness here! It means one in spirit...This isn't so tricky!

GOD gave Jesus, a separate entity, glory. God then passes that glory onto us. I can't be as one with Jesus in a physical sense... I can never be Jesus... BUT then using the words in this verse, can Jesus be GOD. If the words don't apply to us how can they apply to Jesus and GOD when Jesus states that they may be one, even as we are one:?

Cont...

"Is the penny dropping yet?"

The penny has dropped and I got more value when, as in the words of an immortal and anonymous back of the door bard:

"Here I sit,
broken hearted,
paid my penny,
and only farted."

Is Mise,

The fact that it makes no difference why they do what they do suggests that you were trying to make excuses for them or downplay the seriousness of the situation (else why would you bother to proffer alternatives?), and that was the shocking part.

<<… the number of priests in the Catholic Church who molested children is a small proportion …>>

The figure I keep hearing is 7%, and that’s just what we know. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was much higher than that, but even if it isn’t, 7% is massive given the severity and seriousness of the crime in question. If 7% of the general population were murderers, we wouldn’t just brush that off as a small proportion.

<<… there is no reason to leave an organization because a few of the management team go against the teachings of the founder.>>

But it’s not just a few though, is it? The knowledge of what was going on had to have been almost universal among the clergy. If it weren’t, then we should have seen the odd priest here and there reporting what they had found to the authorities. That fact that we didn’t see this suggests that they were all complicit to some degree or another.

The Catholic Church is still a criminal organisation.

It's only 2% of the gastro-intestinal tract. The rectum at 150mm is 10% of the colon, with 7.5 metres the total length of intestines. This is for adults and boys are probably 3-4% of the total length. Way below 7% and not worth worrying about . Anyhow as Mr Pell says , when they're abused there's not much can be done to remedy it , they're so messed up . Surgery is an option for over 150mm .

I know that for those who think 'lmao' and 'lol' are the height of rhetorical repartee, logic is a 4 letter word and an alien concept.

But how is it logically possible to both assert that "I know that the Bible is a load of rubbish" while simultaneously using that same text to make assertions about what Jesus did and din't say?

As usual when those of a certain ilk get into an anti-Christian funk, logic takes a holiday.

AJ,

In 2012, there were a total of 414,313 priests in the Catholic Church and the number of offenders, which is commonly given as 7% includes more members of religious orders who are not ordained priest than those who are so ordained.

My own personal experience of paedophiles within the teaching order under which I studied, was that complaints from children were assessed and acted upon very smartly.
One teacher of whom I complained to my father was out of the school in a week and out of the Marist Order within a month.

WOW! mhaze you obviously aren't the sharpest tool in the shed with your last past now are you?

I'd draw pictures in crayons but I doubt that would help you with your level of logic!

These people don't follow the Bible or Jesus yet they claim they do.

They claim Jesus is God because their preachers have told them that.

So I show what Jesus is quoted to have said...so that they actually see they are wrong according to their Bibles and Jesus. Even though you don't get it...That is the correct thing to do... It is called providing evidence!

It proves they aren't following Jesus' teachings or the Bible as they claim...They are liars and shows they are lying to themselves also.

It proves that they can't be Christian as they don't follow Jesus.

What?...Should I be like them and just pull BS out of the air?

It is they who are making the claims...I am using their book and the teachings of Jesus to prove them wrong.

I hope this simplifies matters enough for you so you don't make a similar fool of yourself with your next post...LMAO

Yep...I am mocking your last post by laughing at you!...lol...LMAO

Is,

I am not Catholic and have known 3 priests in my time - 2 of the 3 were found guilty for crimes against children. SThe fact is that the Catholic Church and other Churches systematically covered up these crimes. So statistics mean nothing! The 7% figure means nothing!

That is why we had the Royal Commission because it was all covered up!

Sorry to hear that something happened in your life like that BUT were the police called or was the guy just kicked out. NOT CALLING THE POLICE IS PART OF THE COVERUP SYSTEM!

If the Police weren't called then that guy could simply move on to some other job and re-offend over and over again!

If a Catholic Church had a window broken by a vandal the police would be called immediately but when children were abused the police were never called!

Sheesh! This is simple stuff!

Op2,

"I am not Catholic and have known 3 priests in my time - 2 of the 3 were found guilty for crimes against children"

Mates of your's were they?

Desperate now Is...More likely frinds of yours!...lmao

Back to Jesus isn't God.

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

So we can speak against JESUS but can't speak against the Holy Ghost as the latter only won't be forgiven? Aren't they one in the same under the trinity? This is a clear case of absolute separation.

Even John 3:16 is misquoted by Christians.

For God (one entity) so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son (Jesus another entity), that whosoever believeth in him (GOD) should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is proven in

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and BELIEVETH ON HIM THAT SENT ME, hath everlasting life,[/b] and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:24 proves that what most believe in John 3:16 is wrong! Why do believers ignore John 5:24. It's simply because they didn't know it was there and/or would prefer to believe in the teachings of men over the teachings of Jesus.

Should we trust Jesus' own words on the matter or the Catholic Church and you lot?...lmao

So let's ignore all the above and accept Jesus was lying...That is afterall what you are doing.

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 10:37-38 Say ye of him (JESUS), whom the Father (GOD) hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I (JESUS) said, I AM THE SON OF GOD?

If I (Jesus) do not the works of my Father (GOD), believe me (JESUS) not.

In that last verse if Jesus hadn't have worded it so he would have been instructing people not to believe in GOD! Jesus would never do this!

Why have believers chosen to ignore Jesus' precise teachings on these matters, and followed a man made construct? Because that is what the Pharisees you all follow wanted!

The Lord's Prayer if Jesus was God...

ME, Who is standing in front of you
Hallowed by MY name
MY Kingdom's here
My Will will be ignored on Earth unlike in heaven
I will give you this day your daily bread
I might forgive your trespasses
For mine is the Kingdom, The power and the glory
Forever and Ever.

Isn't it amazing that the Bible and Jesus prove you all wrong continually...lmao

LOOK! People in the following passages claim to have seen/heard GOD. More lies!

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

AND

Genesis 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

AND

Exodus 6:2-3 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:

And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

AND

Exodus 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

AND

Numbers 12:6-8 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Cont...

Cont...AND Paul believed Moses,

Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken;The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,

YET...THE BIBLE SAYS

Exodus 33:20 And he..(God) said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall NO MAN SEE ME, and live.

THE BIBLE SAYS

John 1:18 NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

JESUS SAID

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. YE HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE.

AND

John 6:46 NOT THAT ANY MAN HATH SEEN THE FATHER,save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

PAUL WROTE

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; WHOM NO MAN HATH SEEN, NOR CAN SEE: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Paul also wrote the exact opposite...lmao

1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? HAVE I NOT SEEN JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD? are not ye my work in the Lord?

AND

1 Corinthians 15:8 AND LAST OF ALL HE WAS SEEN OF ME ALSO, as of one born out of due time.

PAUL CREATES A MAJOR PROBLEM HERE

If Paul has seen the Lord Jesus Christ BUT no-one has ever seen GOD and never will...How can Jesus be GOD?...lol

Yep Paul another one who claims to have heard JESUS/GOD.

1 Timothy 6:15-16 For at just the right time Christ will be revealed from heaven by the blessed and only almighty God,the King of all kings and Lord of all lords.

He alone can never die, AND HE LIVES IN A LIGHT SO BRILLIANT THAT NO HUMAN CAN APPROACH HIM. NO HUMAN EYE HAS EVER SEEN HIM, NOR EVER WILL.All honor and power to him forever! Amen.

Is Paul being honest here or have I caught him out telling fibs again? How can Jesus be GOD?

Do not speak to fools, for they will scorn your prudent words.
-proverbs 23:9

Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
or you yourself will be just like him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
or he will be wise in his own eyes.
-proverbs 26:4-5

Do you see a person wise in their own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for them.
-proverbs 26:12
_________________________________

Opinionated2, here are some thoughts to correct you. So that you can be better for it.

1). You claim that the bible is lying about God, and then you accuse us of choosing this evil God. Which one is it? Is it that there are lies and you hold the truth or it is that you choose what is god, and do not seek what is true or what is a lie. By this I warn you of your own logic. It does not seek to find the truth. To test if it is true or not. But instead to fill you up with how cleaver that you are and choose a better "truth" as if the truth can be found in such a way. Therefore your claims for what is true and what are lies are in error. Don't be angry though, I'm giving you this criticism for your benefit. Hopefully they will help you in your error. Look for the One who answers prayers. Anything less then this is not God, not a God, nor anything in the same ballpark.

(Continued)

(Continued)

2). I see that you are getting a kick about how clever you are. LOLing, and lmao with your own clever digs on those who are still responding. I gave you the quotes from proverbs above for your benefit. Do not be so bold in your arrogance to think you are wise by a childish mockery. You'll only be fooling yourself.

3). As for the actual verses. Going into each would be of value. To try and explain how you've made mistakes with them could help you see the right path. But I warn you. Explanations take longer then the brief criticisms. And a collection of criticisms would take some time and patience to unburden. I feel though that instead you wish to hear no one else but your own voice.

In the mean time though here are two things to consider based on what you've already said. The idea that anyone is innocent is not true. Whether they are bad enough to deserve the death penalty that's worth a separate conversation. But I know of God's love in my own life. From that experience it is hard for me to believe He would drown the world if anyone was still innocent. The innocent would be saved like Noah was. Instead it shows the opposite. This might be a hard issue to hold onto, but I would compare the pre flooded earth to Israel just before God exiled them. Possibly the pre flooded world was worse. No one was innocent and those too young to be guilty were raised up in the same evil and wickedness. Death might not be a punishment for the young as it is the older who are guilty of their sins, but instead a consequence to the older sinful generations, as well as God bringing those young ones home, to God's heavenly realms before they are corrupted further.

....by the way, if I had given you a false witness please show me where I did so. As far as I am aware all I did was call it out as it really was.

NNS Religion has made you unthinking...

Your ignorance is astounding and your failure to comprehend is amazing...Yopu quote stupid verses from Proverbs at me and once again fail Jesus

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

If Jesus is correct here I hope you have heat proof clothing...lol

Once again you follow the teachings of man and fail Jesus!...lmao

I haven't accused you of choosing God at all...I have accused you of believing horrid lies against God...Please wake up!

Once again your comprehension skills are pathetic!

There is no benefit in your criticisms because you are simply wrong again...

You have deluded yourself into thinking you know God...The flood never happened, the Passover never happened, you continue on your merry way denigrating God...Congratulations on your total indoctrination...Your brain has been turned off.

So you claim God answers your prayers?

Let's see how your faith does then...YOU ARE ALL TALK!

JESUS gave believers the perfect way for believers to prove Atheists and Non-believers 100% wrong!

JESUS also gave believers the perfect way to convert Atheists, Agnostics and non-belivers to GOD!

There is absolutely no reason to debate...

Simply follow JESUS' simple instructions and YOU WIN!

I guarantee that most Atheists, Agnostics and non-belivers if not all would immediately convert to GOD and admit they were wrong!

YOU CAN'T LOSE! It's unequivocal!

Here is the method....

CURE ALL THE DISABLED PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WITH THE POWER OF YOUR BELIEF AND PRAYERS!

And here is why you SHOULD be able to do it, if your faith is true!

Cont...

".More likely frinds of yours!...lmao"

Spellcheck is my friend.

Self-Opinionated2,

I can't tell if you're an idiot, glorying in his new discovery that Santa isn't truly ruly real, and that gosh, therefore maybe God isn't either, or are having us on. Satire and sarcasm are not easy on the Internet, where some of us may be a bit slow, and may not know the subtleties of your great mind. Perhaps you need to put a winky somewhere to set us at ease.

Joe

OP2,

I won't spend too much more time on you since I've concluded that you are either intellectually incapable of understand the illogicality in your rants and/or don't have the intestine fortitude to address them.

The bottom line is this....you claim that you are "providing evidence" for your assertions by referencing a book that you've already asserted is a load of rubbish. In the grown-up world that would lead to the conclusion that your evidence is rubbish or your assertions are rubbish. Its quite the accomplishment to achieve both.

Since I'm always open to helping the feeble-minded I'll give you a hint as to how to escape this impasse that you've created for yourself. You could walk back your assertion that the Bible is complete rubbish by conceding that parts of it are indeed valid ie the parts that you assert are valid. That would then make your rants internally consistent. But it also then leaves it open to others to assert that the parts they like are also valid. That would then leave your claims to intellectual superiority over the believers in tatters...but we all know those claims were ephemeral at best anyway.

But I assume that you'll forgo this advice and continue with your wild goose chase ('goose' being the operative world in your case) to prove that the most influential book in history is bunk. Incompetently argued, but highly amusing.

"Yep...I am mocking your last post by laughing at you!...lol...LMAO"

Laughing in capital letters no less. Wow, that's really persuasive. The most cogent argument you've raised to date...sadly.

Professor Barbara Thiering published a book -
"Jesus The Man :A new interpretation from
The Dead Sea Scrolls" in 1992.

I have a copy of it and it should be available
at most local libraries

In "Jesus The Man," Barbara Thiering presents her
landmark research into the Dead Sea Scrolls and the
New Testament. The Dead Sea Scrolls give us a new
definition of scripture - that it is written on two
levels. In her studies of the Scrolls over a period
of 20 years, Barbara Thiering became aware that this
approach could be used in understanding the New
Testament. Through detailed research and a process of
scrupulous comparison she has applied this interpretive
key to the New Testament to reveal that the real history
of Jesus is ...in the place where, ironically he has
been thought to be least likely to be found - in the
gospels and Acts of the New Testament.

The book is worth a read. It is a fascinating subject.
By stripping away the mystery from events and
examining their significance - Thiering allows the
reader to discover a Jesus who is a real, human, fallible
figure. His courage, compassion, and wisdom are of timeless
relevance and continue to be the wellspring of our
deepest and most powerful values.

Barbara Thiering entered teaching after completing university
with a first class honours degree in modern languages in 1951.
During the next ten years she married, taught modern
languages and raised a family. She developed her interest in
religion with a masters degree in theology, followed by a
PhD in 1973. She began teaching at the University of Sydney in
1967, joining the School of Divinity in 1976 and lectured in
Old Testament, Hebrew Theology. Her studies led to the
Dead Sea Scrolls and a 20-year research project which has
produced remarkable findings.

On Palm Sunday in 1990 the ABC broadcast "The Riddle of the
Dead Sea Scrolls" a documentary based on her research, creating
a nationwide controversy, the effects of which are still
continuing.

mhaze... I should have drawn pictures...Should I quote verses from War and Peace when I am debating the Bible? You just quoted me in your post to mistakenly show where I was wrong..so why did you do that? Imbecile!

Loudmouth... I expect you can't fathom much about anything anyway...lol

Now back to the believers here curing tall the disabled people with their prayers.

JESUS said very specifically...

John 14:12-14 Very truly I tell you, WHOEVER BELIEVES IN ME will do the works I have been doing, and THEY (You guys) WILL DO EVEN GREATER THINGS THAN THESE, because I am going to the Father.

And WHATSOEVER YE (You believers) SHALL ASK IN MY NAME, THAT I WILL DO, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If ye (You believers) shall ask ANY THING IN MY NAME, I WILL DO IT.

Key words that must be analyzed for you....

WHOEVER BELIEVES IN ME - means anyone including you, who claim to believe in JESUS. All you have to do is believe...

It's unequivocal!

AND YOU

WILL DO THE WORKS I HAVE BEEN DOING, - Not can do... WILL DO the works that JESUS did...

It's unequivocal!

BUT IT GETS BETTER

and THEY (You believers) WILL DO EVEN GREATER THINGS THAN THESE, - If you TRULY BELIEVE you WILL DO even GREATER THINGS than the things JESUS did!

It's unequivocal!

SO DO THEM!

But he goes further.....There is no wiggle room for believers here...

You all try to get out of it BUT these are JESUS' PRECISE WORDS!

WHATSOEVER YE (You believers) SHALL ASK IN MY NAME, THAT WILL I DO,

JESUS promises to do WHATEVER YOU BELIEVERS ASK IN HIS NAME - No ifs, no buts, no wiggle room...all you have to do is believe and ask in his name!

And why will JESUS do WHATEVER YOU BELIEVERS ASK - that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

You Do want to glorify the father in the son don't you? Maybe not?...or do you still believe the son is the father...lmao

More...

cont...

Then he says it again to make sure it sinks in to your thick skulls...

If ye (You guys) shall ask ANYTHING in my name, I WILL DO IT. - JESUS pronounces absolutely - If you ask it in JESUS name he will do it!

It's unequivocal!

"Honour the Father in the Son" by complying with this precise, unequivocal teaching?

WHY DO YOU GUYS WASTE YOUR TIME ARGUING, WHEN YOU SIMPLY CAN DEFEAT THE NAY SAYERS IN ONE GLORIOUS MOMENT OF EXERCISING YOUR FAITH, BELIEF AND PRAYERS TO GLORIFY THE FATHER IN THE SON!

Jesus said it! Now prove all us who question you wrong!

YOU DO HAVE THE FAITH OF A GRAIN OF MUSTARD SEED DON'T YOU?

This will be fantastic... All those disabled people and amputees with their limbs made whole all caused by the faith of people on this site!

PRAISE THE LORD!

I can't wait for your absolute successes here guys... I'll be the first to say I was wrong when you do it. Don't make Jesus a liar now...I have faith in your faith from what you have typed here...lmao

And it is your faith in Jesus that will prove your success and me wrong...Jesus said so!

Sorry for quoting Jesus mhaze...but I wanted to show you what he actually said...lmao

Foxy,

I also have a copy of Thiering's book. Overall I found it less than convincing but likewise a valuable read. I particular I found her explanations of how the Jews would have understood the virgin birth to be insightful and interesting.

Equally her exploration of the Essene practice of having multiple ways of understanding a particular text was important. (it was mainly this insight that I was thinking of when I wrote my earlier satirical piece to Op2 about 'Animal Farm' ).

However I think she went a little (a lot?) to far with her discoveries and when she started talking of Jesus being the Wicked Priest of the Dead Sea Scrolls, I think she lost a fair bit of credibility. Nonetheless, Australia was worse for her passing a few years back.

If you're interested in this type of thing, another book you might like to track down is The Secret Life Of Jesus by Robert Macklin written around the same time as Theiring's book. Again, an insightful reappraisal of what we know about Jesus from the Bible, the various gospels that didn't make the grade at Nicaea and other texts. To my way of thinking a more satisfying though less well-known book than Theiring's. In it he, for example, using the Talmud to speculate that Jesus was sired by a negro Roman soldier and that this (being mulatto) would explain why he was something of an outcast in Jewish society. Lots of similar things to ponder.

OK I have been away from news media and the internet for a while but have just had the chance to scour the news sights for the mass healings of disabled people due to your prayers NNS...

Nope not one!

So I thought that perhaps the media were in shock and couldn't cope so I went to see a disabled person in our lives...Nope still disabled!

I'm starting to worry that you guys are making Jesus sound like a liar when it is your lies about your faith that is sabotaging the healings..

Is your lack of real faith the problem?

Jesus said he will do anything and everything you ask...So what is stopping you.

Let me remind you

Jesus said

John 14:12-14 Very truly I tell you, WHOEVER BELIEVES IN ME (JESUS) will do the works I (JESUS) have been doing, and THEY (You guys) WILL DO EVEN GREATER THINGS THAN THESE, because I (JESUS) am going to the Father.

And WHATSOEVER YE (You believers) SHALL ASK IN MY (JESUS') NAME, THAT I (JESUS) WILL DO, that the Father (GOD) may be glorified in the Son (JESUS).

If ye (You believers) shall ask ANY THING IN MY (JESUS') NAME, I (JESUS) WILL DO IT.

Maybe Jesus is so ashamed of all of your lack of faith, all of your believing in the Trinity and all of the rubbish you guys say that he has given up on mankind and you believers have caused it!

Earlier you asked NNS is there truly any innocents in the world because you had difficulty believing your God would drown an innocent.

Babies are innocent NNS... Children are innocent NNS and the flood never happened so God drowned no-one!

Perhaps it is thoughts like you had there that shows that God has given up on humans!

Why do you hate God so much by believing the lies in the Bible against God!

The writers of the Bible were Psychopaths, Sociopaths and manically depressed individuals. Perhaps we should let Churches and Church goers have free board and lodgings in no longer used nutfarms...lmao

Happy Healings!

Op2.

Do you really have to shout so much?

//Do you really have to shout so much?//

Have you ever come across those people who shout on street corners? There's one that roams about near my TAFE. Sometimes she shouts at thin air, and sometimes she's sufficiently coherent to ask you for 'three dollars to catch the bus'. Which I always refuse (because I don't believe she intends to catch the bus at all), after which she shouts abuse at my receding back.

That's Opinionated2. He's the crazy guy that you cross to the other side of the street to avoid. Not so much because you're worried he'll take a funny turn and attack you, but more because you're worried that his flying specks of spittle will give you the pox.

Is...I type in capitals to highlight...Do you have to try and defend your churches coverup of child abuse so much?...Turn the other cheek like I do to you!...lmao

No healings on the news still...You believers aren't very good at what you are supposed to be able to do through your faith.

With all the lecturing you do, it seems you really don't have the faith of a grain of mustard seed!...lol

So what does Jesus, say regarding why you ALL failed?

Matthew 17:19-20 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

And Jesus said unto them, BECAUSE OF YOUR UNBELIEF: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE UNTO YOU.

So it is the believers lack of faith and belief that fails them,...BUT...they won't tell the truth and take responsibility themselves!

THE BIBLE ALWAYS PROVES THEM WRONG!

See the Bible always proves believers wrong...NNS referred to God as "the God I know"...so I guess he doesn't know him all that well, if at all...lol

Now let's address this "soon" word in NNS's name and in the Bible regarding Jesus' return...More BS dressed up as Bible fact!

Ask...Can you give me a timeline for that... Usually everyone says "soon"?

But doesn't that mean Jesus lied to us?

Revelation 3:11...I am coming SOON Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

AND THEN IT IS REPEATED IN

Revelations 22:12...“Behold, I am coming SOON, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

How long is soon? Using this verse and others has confused so many people. The Apostles expected Jesus' return in their lives...BUT that didn't happen.

Mark 13:30...Verily I say unto you, that THIS GENERATION shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Who could blame the disciples for believing this when Jesus said that.

Cont...Soon...lol

Dear mhaze,

Thank You for the book reference.

I shall definitely try to hold of it.

It is a subject in which I am very interested.

The word "soon" to believers is the proverbial carrot on a stick held in front of a pack of donkeys. Say hee-haw for us...lol

Why would Jesus return to you who believe the most horrid things against God, who have joined religions that have used Paul the Pharisee to corrupt Jesus' teachings.

So believers then try to twist by redifining generation. It's laughable!

I have a sore neck so can you tell me when "soon" is?

Jesus also said as reported in 3 gospels...

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

AND

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

AND

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Did you all miss these verses from Jesus? Remember Jesus?...lmao

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

See when you suck too much methane you have visions like this.

John's methane filled dreams decided that not one single woman was worthy to be a part of the 144,000!...I wonder if John was gay?

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

SO ladies...How can you believe that having a loving partner is a defilement? John was a lunatic and his believers have the same trait!

HOW ARE THE MASS HEALINGS GOING?...LMAO

Wrong again Toni...street corner's are out, I'm showing the truth whilst they are lying, and I am providing the actual verses that prove every point I make...You are good at being wrong..lol As I said earlier the Pharisees amongst us will always out themselves...It's just they aren't smart enough to know that they are outing themselves. Revelation If you believe Revelation you are listening to the methane affected ravings of John of Patmos...Patmos is a volcanic island. http://www.mygreece.travel/en/things-to-see-and-do/nature/volcanoes/methana.php So what does Revelation say? Does it pass the worthy of GOD test? Well NO! Revelation is a load of rubbish... Take for instance [b]Apocalypse[/b]. What does the word mean? Well if you thought "END of Times" you were wrong, and most preachers get this single word wrong when they preach. I have only ever heard 1 preacher get this correct...so it is a great test of a believer's knowledge. If they get it right.. Yippee...If they get it wrong...I wonder if they are worth listening to. Apocalypse comes from the Greek apokálypsis which means "lifting the veil" OR revelation. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G602&t=KJV Hence [color=#0000CD]Revelation 1:1 The Revelation (apokálypsis) of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:[/color] So God gave the revelation to Jesus so Jesus can't be God!...lol Some history for you : About 400 or so years back people studied apokálypsis eschaton. Eschaton means "End of an era, a time, a period etc. So apokálypsis eschaton means "Lifting the veil on the End times. So through bad teaching and poor understanding, (what's new), the word eschaton was dropped and suddenly we were left with Apocalypse WRONGLY defined as "The End Times" [b]If preachers and believers get such an important word as Apocalypse wrong, what else are they getting wrong?[/b] BUT Revelations 1:1 doesn't have "The Revelation of the End Times" it has "The Revelation (apokálypsis) of Jesus Christ,"...OOPS! And it also says [b]"things which must shortly come to pass;" [/b]so how long is shortly. Cont...

//I'm showing the truth//

Yeah, sure you are buddy. You and every other raving lunatic out there...

With all this evidence being placed before you proving the Bible is rubbish and that all the things you believe are now shown to be wrong, you must feel pretty silly!

OR

You've closed down your brains and refuse to accept that you've been tricked by the Pharasaical religions you all belong to.

Never mind if you have...you can't say you weren't warned...lmao

There are discrepancies all through the Bible and yet in your readings you have never noticed them...What does that say about the inquiring mind you claim God gave you?...lol

All your Bible heroes are now proven to be antiChrist, Paul is antiChrist as are you. Either you believe Jesus or you believe all the other lies.

Sorry to be the bearer of this news for you...The Bible proves you wrong!

You're simply indoctrinated people who allowed religion to steal your gifts of logic and free will to believe a book full of falsehoods...You were tricked by a group of people who would ruthlessly sell those falsehoods for money and control of your minds.

Jesus actually summed you guys up perfectly...

Mark 7:7-9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.

For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

Then he said, You skillfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.

Well done!...lmao

So how are those healings going? You do want to glorify the father in the son don't you or have you been proven wrong, given up and failed Jesus?

Matthew 17:19-20 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

And Jesus said unto them, BECAUSE OF YOUR UNBELIEF: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

See you have an out clause...You can just admit that you are wrong and don't have the faith you claim...

I told you proper Bible study was fun...lmao

"He's the crazy guy that you cross to the other side of the street to avoid. Not so much because you're worried he'll take a funny turn and attack you, but more because you're worried that his flying specks of spittle will give you the pox."

What a wonderfully evocative turn of phrase....kudos.

//that all the things you believe are now shown to be wrong//

But you haven't shown that at all. You just keep ranting about the bible.

//you've been tricked by the Pharasaical religions you all belong to.//

No, we don't all belong to the same religion. You're really not quite the full quid, are you.

//There are discrepancies all through the Bible and yet in your readings you have never noticed them//

Yes I have.

//You're simply indoctrinated people who allowed religion to steal your gifts of logic and free will to believe a book full of falsehoods//

No we aren't.

Between Toni and mhaze we have a combined IQ of 12... well done!

mhaze criticises exactly the method he/she/it uses and Toni misses the point continually.

So what religion or group do you go to Toni? Imbecillian?

Let's add to the list of problems that shows your unknowingness, just for fun.

I'll use the New Testament and specifically the gospels...OOPS!

When did the temple curtain rip?

Mark 15:37-8 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

OR

Luke 23:45-46 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost

OR

Matthew 27:50-51 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

How you batting so far on inerrancy?

How much did David pay for the threshing floor?

1 Chronicles 21:25 So David gave to Ornan for the place six hundred shekels of gold by weight.

OOPS! Hang on no

2 Samuel 24:24 And the king said unto Araunah, Nay; but I will surely buy it of thee at a price: neither will I offer burnt offerings unto the LORD my God of that which doth cost me nothing. So David bought the threshingfloor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver.

WOW "six hundred shekels of gold" miraculously turned into "fifty shekels of silver". Is there much of a difference

Cont...

Sel-Opinionated2,

I'm confused: are you saying that you believe the words of the New Testament, but slag everything in the Old Testament ? As an atheist for nearly seventy years, none of it, the OT or the NT, is factually true, but helpful 'stories', parables, lessons, garbled histories, borrowed bits and pieces, and ultimately guiding principles. None of it has to be 'true' for those principles to come through. It's much of that our present society is built on, I'm happy to admit.

So please forget about the silly stories about Moses and drowning Egyptians, or Noah and God drowning the entire world, or burning bushes, or any of the other delightful stories. Move on to the guts of the religion, the 'deep principles' that people now, at least many of them, try to live by. Of course, their over-riding notion, that by praying and sucking up to a being somewhere in the sky, surrounded by bare-arsed angels playing those bloody harps all damn day, that they can live forever in some sort of incredibly boring Paradise, may be what drives many: in other words, their fear of the alternative, death, the end, nothing afterwards.

As an atheist, the thought of death - and at my age, it will probably come in the next ten or twenty years, nothing much I can do about that - is a bit discomforting, I'd love to live a bit longer: another couple of lives, and I could train as a forester, or a linguist, or an archaeologist, or a cross-country skier, or marry Miss Universe (or at least go through the motions) - yeah, that all would be nice. But it's a bit late now :(. Death will come soon enough, and I hope my kids will remember me.

Joe

"WOW "six hundred shekels of gold" miraculously turned into "fifty shekels of silver". Is there much of a difference"

Inflation,

"or marry Miss Universe (or at least go through the motions)"

Going through the motions with Miss Universe!!

Another evocative image.

//Toni misses the point continually.//

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhc1hWXH5IM

Some people have made the mistake of seeing Op2's work as a load of rubbish about the Bible, but clever people like me who plagiarise Monty Python see this as a deliberate ambiguity, a plea for understanding in a mechanised forum. The points are frozen, the beast is dead. What is the difference? What indeed is the point? The point is frozen, the beast is late out of Paddington. The point is taken. If La Fontaine's elk would spurn Tom Jones the engine must be our head, the dining car our oesophagus, the guards van our left lung, the cattle truck our shins, the first class compartment the piece of skin at the nape of the neck and the level crossing an electric elk called Simon. The clarity is devastating. But where is the ambiguity? Over there in a box. Op2 is saying Samuel 24:24 when in reality he means the 8.13 from Gillingham. The train is the same, only the time is altered. Ecce homo, ergo elk. La Fontaine knew its sister and knew her bloody well. The point is taken, the beast is moulting, the fluff gets up your nose. The illusion is complete; it is reality, the reality is illusion and the ambiguity is the only truth. But is the truth, as Hitchcock observes, in the box? No, there isn't room, the ambiguity has put on weight. The point is taken, the elk is dead, the beast stops at Swindon, Chabrol stops at nothing, I'm having treatment and La Fontaine can get knotted.

Toni,

I think you're given Op2 way too much credit here, assuming that (s)he is capable of that sort of cryptic messaging. Frankly I think the whole piece is merely an attempt to fart in our general direction. Admittedly it is hard to get Op2 to see reason since every time someone lands a telling blow, (s)he asserts its a mere flesh wound and carries on regardless.

So rather than these rants being a clever piece of cryptic analysis, Op2's outbursts don't show him/she to be the anti-Messiah, just a very naughty boy.

OUCH!... The Tweedle dee and Tweedle dumb of this site sure are hurting my feelings...lmao...NOT!

Was the Fig tree cursed prior to or after driving merchants from the temple?

Mark 11:13-17 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.

And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

OR

Matthew 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

And 5 verses later

Matthew 21:17-19 And he left them, and went out of the city into Bethany; and he lodged there.

Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.

And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Those pesky traders and fig trees, how did they reverse the order?

Open or closed tomb?

Matthew 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

OR

Luke 24:2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

OK where did that pesky angel fly off to? He's still missing in John 20:1 below... He is really pesky isn't he, especially when you need the stories to align? OOPS!

OOPS!

You sure can trust the Bible for accuracy...lmao

Cont...

Cont...

How many women attended the tomb?

John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

OR...2

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

OR...3

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him

OR...WHO KNOWS HOW MANY?

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

then

Luke 24:8-10 And they remembered his words,

And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.

It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

How did the thieves treat Jesus?

Luke 23:39-42 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

One asked to be remembered but in this verse THEY REVILED HIM!

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Yep 2/3 of the Bible verses on the matter say they reviled and abused him...well sort of!

Matthew 27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

You guys who know God and whose prayers are answered by God...Any amputated legs grown back whilst I've been away...

You have to stop exaggerating about your faith!

OOPS!

The Evil story of Lot

Genesis 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where (are) the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

Firstly to know them is often misrepresented as to have sex with them. Whose got the smutty mind with that interpretation?

This story makes no sense whatsoever!

The alleged angels in the story couldn't protect themselves against these alleged ravaging hoards?... Some angels!

Even though this story is a load of rubbish let's continue.

LOT does something far worse. To allegedly protect the supposed angels he offers his virgin daughters instead.

Genesis 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as [is] good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

What? To be raped by homosexuals?

Why didn't LOT just offer himself? Surely he was better bait than the daughters.

Why didn't LOT offer his wife to the homosexuals?...lmao

I wonder what GOD would truly think of someone sacrificing up their daughters in such a terrible way?

Furthermore if the hoards were homosexual why would two virgin women distract them? It makes no sense.

Now to Moses' rubbish laws on this subject. Remember MOSES is the one who just told you that crazy LOT story.

Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death.

But of coarse Moses can't be trusted because he is a psychopathic liar!

Cont....

So LOT goes to the mountains with his two daughters because he is afraid to live in Zoar.

He has just been helped by angels and GOD but he is still scared.

Now for the ultimate rubbish twist in the story.

Genesis 19:32-33 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

WHAT? Surely this can't be true. That poor LOT taken advantage of by his horrid virgin daughters, and when he was drunk, no less.

REALLY? Come on now... More likely LOT having no wife got drunk and raped his daughters.

BUT remember women were like possessions. Who would listen to a woman?

Luckily for LOT no-one!

So here we have the possibility of a terrible crime committed against the young women, by their father, and the story possibly twisted to protect the male.

Genesis 19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

What is the more likely scenario? Ever been drunk? He was so drunk he knew absolutely nothing about it? TWICE!

The same thing happened on the following night and he wasn't aware?

Give me a break!

How do people believe this rubbish without questioning what is a more likely scenario?

Anyone want to discuss how you allowed these women's names to be blackened when it was probably the other way around, and LOT was a creep?

As usual religions are always happy to blame the women...

Religions are shameful organisations and guess what you guys belong to them...

WAKE UP!

Seems like the God of Israel so despised by op2 is still laughing at His deniers. Thanks Mr Trump. Come Lord Jesus.

Oh Runner you poor desperate nutjob...It is you who hates God... and you just bore false witness against me again.

Look what you believe...

You believe in Noah's flood that drowned the whole world except 8 people. Yep you believe God drowned every innocent baby, innocent toddler, innocent infant, innocent child and innocent babe in the womb. I dont'...the flood never happened!

You believe that God killed every firstborn in Egypt in the passover which never happened. Again even in the off chance that every adult was guilty you believe every innocent firstborn baby and firstborn child was murdered by God. What about the firstborn mothers who would have been killed leaving little babies and children motherless? You obviously have no shame! You probably celebrate the Passover every year like other evil people and organisations do... Shame on you!

You also must believe GOD condoned of and sometimes committed infanticide, rape, murder, animal and human sacrifice, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, torture, incest, Mosaic Law - (Sharia Law), stoning, slavery , oppression of women and other atrocities!

I say God didn't!

So because you and others like you believe these lies against God and if you believe Jesus is God, Jesus also you won't get to meet Jesus.

Jesus said of people like you...

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You have thought the most horrid thoughts and beklieved the most horrid lies against God even professing them to others and you want to face judgement?

Take heat proof clothing with you...lmao

You crazy, mixed up little vegemite you!

//The Tweedle dee and Tweedle dumb of this site//

Quick, somebody fetch some water! I've just sustained a serious burn!

I'll see your Lewis Carroll reference and raise you a funky song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkfdN-z2vcQ

//Seems like the God of Israel so despised by op2 is still laughing at His deniers. Thanks Mr Trump. Come Lord Jesus.//

Don't get your hopes up, runner.

"And when the orange, small-handed king moveth his embassy, then surely thou shall know the end times draw nigh."

Is not a prophecy you'll find in any standard translation of Revelation. And I'm sure the Mad Hatter can back me up on that. Looks like all you wacky fundamentalists will have to keep hanging out a bit longer. But stay positive, I'm sure the end of the world will be along any day now. So there's something for you to look forward to.

For some unknown reason believers need to believe God committed horrid crimes against humanity and then somehow in there twisted minds they call that love...

Maybe they need a chance to modernize the false complaints against God...

Maybe they could blame God/Jesus for the 911 World Trade centre attacks.
the Vietnam War, WW1 and WW2, the Iraq war, Hitler, Stalin.

With there twisted minds they could say Hitler was a loving gift from God to mankind.

According to them God drowned all the innocent children and babies in the flood because he loved us...lmao

Religion really is a mental illness!

THE STUPID UNGODLY STORY OF JOB THAT ONLY IQ CHALLENGED PEOPLE BELIEVE!

So the Sons of GOD came to heaven to present themselves to GOD and good old Satan was allowed into heaven also.

This it seems after he had tempted Adam and Eve, GOD's perfect creations...

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

After a few pleasantries where GOD (supposedly omniscient) asks Satan where he has been... Apparently GOD didn't know and had to ask!

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

So for some strange reason GOD opes up Job to Satan after Satan tempts GOD... Can GOD be tempted by Satan? According to this stupid story - YES!

Job 1:9-11 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

So GOD takes the bait...God didn't need to because he is omniscient BUT believers miss that... GOD ALREADY KNEW THE OUTCOME!

Cont....

So Satan is let loose on JOB and goes straight to work.

Job 1: 13-19 One day when Job’s sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby, and the Sabeans attacked and made off with them. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the heavens and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three raiding parties and swept down on your camels and made off with them. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, “Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

So if FREE WILL actually exists why did all these people die?

They had no say in anything! If GOD is loving why did these innocents die?

If GOD is omniscient why did he need to test JOB? He knew the outcome any way.

Why did GOD allow Satan to kill all these innocents?

REMEMBER...I don't believe this rubbish against God but you guys do!

Come on people please start to think… You continually make GOD out to be unintelligent undermining his LOVE and OMNISCIENCE with your belief in fairytales.

Why do you hate God so much by believing these horrid stories that totally undermine and denigrate God?

WAKE UP!

Op 2

Your perverted twisting of Scripture and yesterday's celebration of perversion and evil in Parliament shows exactly why God was just in flooding the earth. Thank God a few were smart enough to go into the ark. The rest mocked in their self righteousness from the gallery. And of course the Ark that protects from the coming just destruction is Jesus. The wise will heed. The mockers will continue.

Hi Runner,

I can't tell if Self-Op2 is one of ours or one of yours :). Is his rant anti-religion (or anti- its storied bits) or is it against non-believers, or is he infatuated with the New Testament as against the Old Testament ? I can't wait until he gets to Revelations.

Cheers,

Joe

//I don't believe this rubbish against God but you guys do!//

Or so you keep telling us. I note that you've still made no effort to provide any evidence or reasoning to back up that assertion.

Do you think perhaps that if you repeat the assertion often enough it will sow seeds of self-doubt in our mind, and we'll start to think that maybe we are actually Christian after all?

//I can't wait until he gets to Revelations.//

Might be a while. The lunatic seems intent on doing the whole damn book, verse by verse. Of course, everybody will have got bored and wandered off long before Revelations, and with nobody to feed him attention Op2 will also get bored and wander off. So I guess we'll never get hear his brilliant theological critique of the Revelation. What a pity.

To be honest Joe I have no idea why He hates the living God. What I do know is I have not the time to read the hundreds/thousands of texts he has cut and paste written by those hating the God they say they don't believe in.

I frankly think that OP2 is simply stirring to keep
this discussion going. We all know that true religion
is internal, not external and the spirit within us
cannot be blamed for the blasphemies carried out in its
name. What some have done in the name of religion,
projecting their neuroses, even perpetrating evil on
the world, does not make religion as a mystical
phenomenon invalid. In fact, nothing could be so relevant
or so necessary in the world today.

Organised religions have become, in many cases, as calcified
as other institutions that form the structure of our modern
world. Our religious institutions have far too often become
handmaidens of the status quo, while the genuine religious
experience is anything but that. Also religious institutions
as such are not the only arbiters of religious experience.
They do not own the Truth, for the Truth cannot be owned.
Nor should they think they hold some franchise on our
spiritual life. They are consultants and frameworks but they
are not God Himself. We should not confuse the path with the
destination.

It is simplistic to think that many people turned away from
organised religion and now are coming back as if that's
the whole story. People are returning to religion because
they found that life without the conscious awareness of
God is difficult, and they come back to religion because
that is theoretically where to find Him.

But they don't come back as the spiritually half-interested
complacent congregants that many of their parents were.
They've come back with an interest in actually having a
religious experience. Organised religions will have to
step up to bat, religiously, or it will wither away.
Organised religious institutions are in for a huge transformation,
for the simple reason that people have become religious in
spite of them.

Dearest Foxy,

Thank you for your excellent contribution, bravo!

It was sad that the SSM legislation favoured the calcified organised religions and only their official clergy were granted the legal ability to act according to their religion and conscience - what about the rest of us who actually are religious (or at least aspiring to be religious) and try to follow the spirit?

If a dogmatic socio-political institution has no religion left in it, then why should we continue to refer to it as "religious"?

Dear Yuyutsu,

You always seem to have the ability to cheer me up when
I most need it.

Thank You - you sweet man.

Dearest Foxy,

As always, I learn so much from your contributions, especially your positivity and determination to see the good side.

As an atheist, and probably in as much doubt as the next believer, I appreciate the struggling for what Kenan Malik calls 'a moral compass', a set of moral principles to live by. For me, Marxism used to be the 'answer', but that fell apart some time ago. A long time ago. But I always remember Bill Hayden's dictum, 'put more in than you take out of life' and I've tried to flesh that principle out as much as I can, give or take the odd backslide.

Yes, much of what we live by in a secular sense has its deep origins in Christianity and Ancient Greek philosophies, overlain by centuries of the development of ideas, science, 'knowledge'. As a Popperian now, I assume that pure, total knowledge is not possible, but we have to work with what is most workable. There IS reality, truth, even if we can't grasp it, and (Popper says) we never will. We should do the best we can in an imperfect, ever-unfinished world: a huge step forward is to concede that nobody has all the answers.

Thank you, Foxy and Love always,

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

Thank You for that.

Self-Op2,

You introduced this thread ( your 2nd post) by saying you were going to analyse all Abrahamic religions. When are you going to get to the Koran ? If you're into slagging absurdities, you should have a fun time there.

By the way, why is there not a single mention in the Koran about Jerusalem ? And not too many mentions of Mecca ? Or winged horses, an unjustly neglected species ?

Joe

Wow the usual suspects are sure out to fail again - great to see you all making the same errors over and over.

Pharisee Runner is thrilled that every innocent drowned in the flood...Do you know what a psychopath is Runner? He is so busy believing God is a mass murder that he talks tough on the internet. Maybe God has hardened his heart and his head...lmao

Cured any amputees with your faith yet Runner? Of course not Runner is a crazy little mixed up vegemite who needs an evil God in his life...lmao

Runner doesn't have the faith of a grain of mustard seed!

The Loudmouthed one thinks Revelation has an "s" on the end and has obviously missed where I have gone into some details regarding John I love the smell of Methane Patmos and his lunatic ravings!

Foxy is trying to work out why I am saying what I am saying when that should be painfully obvious...I agree to some degree about a need for spirituality as we are spiritual beings but spirituality based on BS is still BS!

I started this thread talking about the Abrahamic religions and I know I have proven them a load of rubbish!

I think I am a bit like Jesus...He came along and was a refreshing change in a horrid world. Alas the believers crucified him even though he was pointing out many truths.

None of you are tough enough to nail me to a cross though...lmao

I will eventually get to where I stand on many things because I am a very spiritual person...I simply just don't believe lies presented as fact by the religions and the religious amongst us...

Which organisations have been the worst at covering up crimes against children and the secret oppression of women...Oh that's right the Christian religions and all tacitly approved of by the believers who just keep attending because they are morally inept!

Now how many amputees legs have grown back because of God answering the prayers of the faithful here... Oh none! So much for their faith!..lmao

Keep laughing at religion!...lol

So it's starting to come together. It makes sense , count me in for one.
"I think I am a bit like Jesus...He came along and was a refreshing change in a horrid world."
Yes got it.

You are funny op2 first you accuse me of rejoicing over drowned babies and then ask me if I 'Cured any amputees with your faith yet Runner? ' Wouldn't I cut the other leg off following your logic? Oh no please don't answer.

Runner..That was only to prove what a crazy vegemite you are...You are thrilled that God drowns babies and yet your faith doesn't heal anyone like Jesus said you could....

It proves you have no faith and that you love your belief that God is a murderer!

Most people only have one screw loose...You have a whole jar full...and every imbecilic word you type digs the hole you have dug for yourself even deeper.

Loudmouth...I haven't read the Qur'an...I haven't read Daffy Duck goes to Hollywood either would you like a book review on that also?...lmao

Muslims have 3 books in their religion...The Old Testament, The New Testament -they believe Jesus was a prophet and the Qurán...It was torture enough reading the OT and the NT until I realised it was a comedy of errors and falsehoods...

So many people want me to comment on the Qurán - Isn't commenting on 2/3 of the Muslim Holy Books enough?

You should read the whole thread but I did make one comment earlier...

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8045#249144

No nicknamenick - You may think it is coming together but you are wrong...You took the bate though...lol

THE TEMPTATION OF JESUS

If JESUS is GOD then how can GOD be tempted by the lowly SATAN? Oh according to James he can't!

James 1:13: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

So how could JESUS/GOD be tempted?

JESUS has just been baptised and GOD speaks so all can hear.

Did JESUS know he was the Son of GOD before the baptism? YES!

Did Jesus know he was the Son of GOD after his baptism? YES! Well he did unless he was blind and deaf!

Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Cont...

Temptation of Jesus cont...

So for simplicity lets focus on one of the alleged temptations.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

What? JESUS/GOD was tempted? He was offered all the kingdoms of the world by the lowly fallen angel Satan?

Didn't JESUS/GOD create all things? Isn't GOD the master of the Universe?

He already owns them! It's like someone tempting you with the car you already own! Here let me give you 1 cent for your car... Are you tempted? Of course not!

You believers, with your lack of knowledge, lack of logic, lack of analysis and lack of discernment give Satan way too much power.

Please STOP undermining GOD with your infantile beliefs!

So what other tragedies in modern times are you believers going to blame God for? The Asian Tsunami? The Japanese Tsunami?

You want to blame God for everything else...lmao

Any healings yet? http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8045#249345

Of course not you are all religious windbags! All talk no action!

I guess it proves God doesn't answer your prayers!...lmao

//you are all religious windbags!//

Well, he's half right I suppose.

I hate to burst everyones bubble but there is no God! All these 'cults' were started by either a narcissist or a well meaning simpleton. All the 'holy books' were written and re-written by humans. Fantasies all of them. I can understand people of the past looking for a saviour to help them escape the impoverished world they lived in. But today? We are a better informed and educated lot these days we don't need to seek help and guidance from anyone but ourselves. So I would have to go with, Yes it is finally time to know what we believe in, is probably/definitely wrong.

ALTRAV
"Yes" is the wrong answer . Ask David Singer.

Altrav...We are taught a pack of lies from early childhood.

In Christianity it starts with the Baby Jesus story, (Aww Jesus was a baby...How cute!), and because of Jesus we get Christmas presents...

It moves to Noah's Ark stories where God drowns innocent babies and children but hey he did it for love...lmao, then Easter (Yay chocolates), and then God loves us stories proven by their belief that he is a mass murderer but a kind one...lmao.

Lurking in the background to keep children scared is the story of some idiotic talking snake and the threat that if you don't believe this rubbish you burn forever in the sulphur lakes of hell.

The indoctrination process from evil people is always very subtle and very clever. Deliberately scaring a child into believing using talking snakes, demons and hell is child abuse!

They lie about prayers being answered and yet Jesus doesn't stop child abusers in his religion abusing children, and Jesus doesn't help the 1 billion underfed people and the 1 person per second that dies from undernourishment.

Jesus doesn't stop tragedies and believers think he doies...God had no part in it, but they are damaged delusional indoctrinees.

Churches lie about the Bible being God's word but the believers never actually read the book in its entirity. God is that important to them...lmao

Believers analytical minds are turned into mush by the religions!

These believers have such little faith that they can't heal anyone, they can't move mountains like the Bible tells them, and they don't follow Jesus like they claim.

They are simply pathetic people who prove indoctrination works!

They continue spreading the lies against their God and don't care...

They are the unGodly ones, deluded into thinking they are good people yet believing everyone that doesn't follow their insane beliefs will rot in hell...Can you be a good person when you believe and spread lies all the time believing the person you are trying to convert to your insanity will burn in hell?

Religion is an evil, mind controlling deceit and believers should wake up!

Praise the Lord!

Self-Op2,

Pretty much everybody on this thread, except Runner, would agree with you before you got out of bed:

"I started this thread talking about the Abrahamic religions and I know I have proven them a load of rubbish!"

Well, duh. Even most Christians would partly agree with you: you're really flogging a very dead and stinking hose, Self-Op2. Then you say:

" .... Jesus... came along and was a refreshing change in a horrid world. Alas the believers crucified him even though he was pointing out many truths."

Really ? Or is that a myth too ? Many, if not most, of us don't actually believe that there was a Jesus, and many others of us don't think it matters, either way: 'he' is a symbolic figure, like so many others in ancient history, utilised as an example how to live, serve one's god, etc., sort of like a Dreaming figure - or are you suggesting that Dreaming stories are true and faithful representations of reality as well ?

Or are you saying that all religious texts are rubbish ? Join the club, Self-Op2 ! Or are you saying that the OT is BS but the NS is perfect ? It's so confusing talking to four-year-olds.

No offence but you seem like one of those smart-arse kids in the local Colts/Junior football who has just discovered how to do a drop-kick and is keen to show the grown-ups how to do it.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but there are entire university departments all over the world which have been focussing on what you think is so brilliant new, some for hundreds of years. Listen, read, and learn, Self-Op2.

Joe

Op2,

Perhaps you could explain the miracles at Lourdes?

Is Mise,

Stop teasing that poor kid !

Dear OP2,

Actually you haven't proven anything!

Scripture is clear. God's sovereignty answers to no one.
(Romans 9:20-21). A believer has faith in God's
goodness, even when circumstances make it difficult and reason
seems to falter. You question of "why doesn't God cure
amputees?" is not very intelligent. Who are we to question God
and His wisdom.

We have historical records of Jesus healing lepers, some of
whom we may assume had lost digits or facial features or
limbs. In any case, the lepers were restored whole (Mark 1:
40-42, Luke 17: 12-14). Also there is the case of the man
with the shriveled hand (Matthew 12: 9-13) and the
restoration of Malchus's severed ear (Luke 22: 50-51), not
to mention the fact that Jesus raised the dead (Matthew 11:5,
John 11) which would undeniably be even more difficult than
healing an amputee.

In any case God has given us enough medical professionals
who are able to help amputees and who have dedicated their
entire lives towards this work. Dr Al Muderis is one
such professional who is doing God's work globally.

Loudmouth,

I have listened to many people talk about religion over the years from the Atheist to the rabid believer and I have never seem or heard anyone discussing the individual topics from the Bible in the detail I have....You haven't either!

I don't know why anyone refers to themselves as Atheist because it is simply an unscientific position to hold.

Science always leaves the door open for possibilities that may come out with future evidence and discoveries. The Theory of Gravity looks very solid BUT they keep it as a theory because they may discover another underlying energy/force that is doing the work we attribute to gravity. I doubt there is one but you never know.

I often defend Atheism by taking the scientific approach to it saying...An Atheist is a person who sees no evidence of a supernatural being or a God.

Of course if the believers here suddenly started curing all the amputees of the world, with their prayers to God, that would at least be one piece of evidence that they may be wrong and Atheists may be wrong.

That is why I gave them that task... They are pathetic failures with very minute amounts of faith so they simply will never do it...They believe in the power of prayer I don't...lol

So all the people who attack me who aren't religious really are dills. They can't see that arguments between Atheists and believers can never be concluded unless you give precise analysis of why the Bible is wrong!

The crazy vegemites like Runner you will never convince. They are too indoctrinated to even think!

Is..Lourdes is a money making venture for the Catholic Church...You are a Catholic..You study why some people can "heal themselves" when they are absolutely convinced that the water is healing them.

The human mind is a very powerful tool...Now you explain whilst other people pray to God and still die of the disease they pray for God to heal and why God allows innocent children to die even after being to Lourdes...lmao

There is no dill like a religious dill...lmao

Self-Opinionated2,

Are you a bit schizophrenic - are there two of you, a Self-Op2 (i) and a Self-Op2 (ii) ?

One says, " .... all religions are rubbish."

The other says, " .... all the people who attack me who aren't religious really are dills."

One says, "There is no dill like a religious dill.... "

The other says, "Believers' analytical minds are turned into mush by the religions!"

Assuming there is only one of you, can you try to understand that pretty much everybody on this thread saw you coming, yawned, said, "Ho hum", and went back to what they were doing. What you think you've 'discovered' was known to most of us as school-kids. We realised that the stories were not to be taken literally, at least not these days, maybe back in the Middle Ages but not now. We have long since gone a bit deeper and twigged to the more basic principles of what religious teachings are trying to get across, and built our concepts of good and bad, right and wrong, very much on those principles. Even atheists can appreciate that.

No, Jonah wasn't swallowed by a fish. Daniel didn't shove his head in a lion's mouth or whatever. God didn't/couldn't stop the earth from turning for a day, so that Samuel could have more time to slaughter his enemies. Jeremiah wasn't fed by crows out in the desert: they might have sat by him in his last hours, waiting, waiting. Moses, if he existed, was probably Egyptian, dumped in the Nile by a single mother. Even in his book, Job didn't actually praise god, which is why god had to spit the dummy at him (check out the last page of the Book of Job, fascinating). God seems, in Job, to be a bit of a self-obsessed turd. Stories are apocryphal, Self-Op (i) and (ii). Look it up.

Oops ! God as a turd ? Now I'm stricken ! Aaaaaaaaargh !

Loudmouth...You have become a waste of space and time as usual...

I don't think I have discovered anything... I am just showing what the Bible actually says... Stop reading it if you find it Ho hum... I find your criticisms infantile and unitelligent.

I'm not documenting this stuff for the likes of you...but there is a whole world of agnostics out there who might actually be reading this and realising that what I say is true.

Likewise there may be a whole heap of believers who have never read the books who actually realise that it is a load of garbage.

That's why I don't bother answering criticisms from people like you... It's a waste of my time because you don't have the capacity to understand simple concepts...It must suck to be you!

You can't explain anything to me... again reading your comments is a waste of time...I don't need to look anything up...Most of the Bible is Apochryphal...and I am showing it over and over!

It's believers who believe the literal Bible, and that is why I discuss it that way... Sheesh this is simple stuff, try to keep up!

Now after dealing with that rubbish from you...let's move on.

ANIMAL SACRIFICE

God required animal sacrifices. Really?

Would GOD like the smell of an animal being burnt on an alter?

Exodus 20:24  An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

AND

Leviticus 1:9  But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord.

So GOD must love a ritualistic BBQ.

How do people believe this rubbish?

Next time you are having a BBQ God might be looking over your shoulder making certain you cook it properly...lmao

I wonder how God likes his sacrificial meat cooked...lmao

Op1, 2 & 3 , you missed your vegemite play-lunch.
"..Atheists and believers can never be concluded unless you give precise analysis of why the Bible is wrong!"
This presumes that God=Bible . ( Like your Church=Bible=dills).
Without a Bible , a God is possible even with a flawed Bible.
( Hint: eye-witnesses in court( swearing on Bible )).
Maybe gods wrote other books but Christianity seems to be your thing.
A perfect Bible could possibly be written by a Roman atheist. A dill god writing a dill Bible would have perfect dills , you dill.

Is Mise,

We’ve already been through the alleged miracles at Lordes. (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18849#336077)

I'm not sure why you still think this is a trump card.

//there is a whole world of agnostics out there who might actually be reading this and realising that what I say is true.

Likewise there may be a whole heap of believers who have never read the books who actually realise that it is a load of garbage.//

Because how could anybody possibly figure out for themselves that there is rubbish in the Bible if you weren't there to tell them? Only you can save mankind!

How's that Messiah complex coming along there, Opiated2?

"So this thread will focus more on the Christian religion but it covers all the Abrahamic religions." Operas 1,2,3,4,
Muslims agreed with you , lord , when Muhammed the Alcoholic tweeted your texts in the style you worship . May your wisdom and flood-gates pour benificence upon the mercifully dead destitute dills.

Human Sacrifice

Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

If you heard a voice that you thought was GOD would you be prepared to offer your child as a burnt offering? Abraham was nuts?

REALLY? Would GOD operate like this?

God is omniscient he knows Abrahams heart! The story is a load of rubbish!

Where was God intervening in this story...Oh hang on a girl was murdered in this one and women don't count according to the liars who wrote the Bible!

Judges 11:30-39 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.

And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.

Cont...

Judges 11:30-39...cont

And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

REALLY? GOD WOULD ACCEPT THE BURNT OFFERING FROM A DELUDED FATHER?

Why didn’t GOD just still his hand like he did to Abraham? Does it get any uglier than this?

But remember it was only a woman who got killed wheras Isaac was a male...

Lady believers...How do you believe all this anti-women rubbish from this man written book of nonsense?

Are you so pathetically indoctrinated that you can't see through this foolishness? Surely you guys at least see this is all an insult to God?

There's no dill like a religious dill! lmao

More to follow...

AJ,

"I'm not sure why you still think this is a trump card."

Well, no one ever explained why they occur and I just thought that Op2, with his wide knowledge of Scripture and religion in general, might be able to throw some light (heavenly or otherwise).

For those of you persisting in favour of religion, you must come to terms with the fact that ALL the religious accounts, mostly in written form, was the work of people who were followers or believers. There are too many holes in religious history to take the scriptures, bibles, Koran etc; as being true accounts of that particular religion/cult. I thought we were smarter than this. 2017 years ago we get this guy Christ who says HE is gods son. 700 years later we get some other dude Mohamed and now he is, what? Christ's replacement? The second coming that went horribly wrong and halfway to earth he got hi-jacked by a Muslim alien cult that converted him then sent him on his way. Oh and while they were at it they stuck him with all these awful things that humans must do to each other if they are true believers. Really guys? I did not care about all these threats to the white infidels before I looked into the Koran a little. Now I'm sh!t scared of them. I now truly believe if they (the Muslims) keep on this path, they are attempting to be the dominant religion/cult. It will take them many decades but the followers are so blinded by this cult it will keep passing the baton on to generation after generation. It will be difficult to break the brainwashing but with enough of them integrating and moving away from Islam, after a very long time, it will be possible to weaken the believers by diminishing their numbers and therefore the threat. By the same token, as has occurred in the past, if a non Muslim gets drawn in by a Muslim, it is very possible the opposite will occur, which will only bolster their numbers. I don't doubt for one second that Christ and Mohamed did exist. It's what is written about what they did and that they 'spoke' to God that's got me rejecting this whole religious thing.

Oh Gord, not another one. Do you blokes understand what is meant by 'straw man' ?

The 10 Commandments

Now I have already shown how the Psychopath Moses was also a liar...

Now for the 10 Commandments!

Exodus 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

then

Exodus 32:14-16 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.

And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

So GOD can do evil? REALLY?

And Moses the grump destroys GOD's work...Apparently

Exodus 32:19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

So Moses punishes the people by putting the burnt gold into fire and then grounded it into powder and made the people drink it... REALLY?

Exodus 32:20 And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.

Op2

"And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.

And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables."

You might be on to something there, were these four-legged or three-legged tables?
Probably folding picnic tables; or were they arithmetical?

To Loudmouth.

With all due respect, I think it's a wrong approach to say what Christians believe or what they disregard, when you aren't a Christian yourself. Perhaps you have many Christian aquentiances you know who believe some things, but largely don't believe what their faith says. If that's where your getting your info then ok, let the numbers speak for themselves I guess. But if on the other hand you say most Christians don't believe ________, because it's too outrageous to believe, then I'd advise against that logic.

There are a lot of varieties of beliefs and views within Christian perspectives. Unfortunately they don't all agree with each other. Because of this I'd hold my weight on having the bible as the foundation to test the other beliefs and traditions against. ...I don't know if that's a majority view, but it is definitely a contending perspective.

To ALTRAV, on page 9 you said that there is no God, and that the people of the past would accept the idea of God because of their poverty. But today we are different. More informed. I would challenge you on all three counts, that we are different then our ancestors, that we are more informed (at least with regards to God), and that God doesn't exist.

First the basis of God being real, and God being fake are both challenged by Christians (or anyone of any faith) leaving their faith saying they never found God; as well as challenged by atheists who then become believers, saying they found God, or found His undeniable force. These two elements are the breakaways from both religious and atheistic views potential for indoctrination. Whether God is real or not is not a straight answer, that only the indoctrinated don't get. On that basis, if God is real, then the reason to believe in Him shines throughout history, not on the conditions of history that we have overcome.

Second point. Being more informed is not really accurate. On so many subjects, we have expanded our knowledge. But in the area of religion, there's a different dynamic. In order to have an unbiased view and teach from subjects that don't rely on God, many schools leave out God entirely. Even to the point of trying to remove any mention or discussion about God.

Consider it this way. In a place of learning one topic is entirely shunned, and is a blind spot in educational programs. On the scope of that topic how is that not indoctrination as much as going to church is blamed for indoctrinating Christians. What is obvious to some one who never knew God, saying that God doesn't exist is a sad reality to those who know God: that people are still blind and have no idea.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Third point. Are we really that different from our ancestors? Have we actually changed or evolved? Throughout history there are many of the same struggles. They've even been written about in different general that seem to be just as relatable today. Shakespeare wrote on themes we still use. Romance, war, suffering, and good verses evil are all repeated stories that we haven't changed from. Neither have we today solved the problem that entice our world. Corruption, cruelty, violence, and greed affect the would on a large scale. Broken marriages, poverty, competition for wealth and jobs, and the survival sense to keep guard against others in case they might harm you or steal from you are all things that affect us on an individual level.

As far as I can tell little has changed about people except our medicine and our technology. I'm sure our ancestors were just as smart (or dumb) as we are. Even without a standardized school system.

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"For those of you persisting in favour of religion, you must come to terms with the fact that ALL the religious accounts, mostly in written form, was the work of people who were followers or believers."

Yer don't say!! WOW!!

//I think it's a wrong approach to say what Christians believe or what they disregard, when you aren't a Christian yourself.//

I think it's a wrong approach to say what physicists believe or what they disregard, when you don't even understand the 2nd Law. Perhaps you have many friends who claim to understand thermodynamics, but who don't believe in the same 2nd Law that most physicists believe in. If that's where your getting your info then you should read more widely. But if on the other hand you say most physicists don't believe in the commonly understood, well-established version of the 2nd Law because it's too outrageous to believe, then I'd advise against that logic.

But that has never stopped you in the past, has it? Remember the Golden Rule, NNS: if you don't want interlopers straying onto your turf, stay the heck away from theirs (I'm paraphrasing a bit).

//I don't know if that's a majority view, but it is definitely a contending perspective.//

It's neither. Biblical literalism definitely isn't a majority view - quite the opposite, in fact - because most people just can't take it seriously. That's why it isn't a contending perspective either - because most Christians view it as a joke that some backwards folk just haven't got yet.

//I'm sure our ancestors were just as smart (or dumb) as we are.//

No, that's really not the case. Intelligence, like every human characteristic, is the result of genetics and environment. Even if we assume no significant genetic change over the short timeframe (biologically speaking, for a species with a fairly slow reproductive rate) since the industrial revolution, our environment has changed enormously, in ways that favour the development of higher intelligence: public libraries, universal education, better nutrition etc.

"Early Writing Tablet recording the allocation of beer, 3100-3000 B.C.E, Late Prehistoric period, clay, probably from southern Iraq.
© Trustees of the British Museum. The symbol for beer, an upright jar with pointed base, appears three times on the table. Beer was the most popular drink in Mesopotamia and was issued as rations to workers."
This temple account was written by Sadam the Atheist who believed his fake religion was opinionated .

And now for something completely different:

On my travels through the BBC Radio 4 website, I unearthed a little gem entitled 'Old Harry's Game'. It's a charming little radio sitcom set in Hell, which also happens to feature some fairly deep philosophy about what the human condition and what it means to be a good person. It's vintage comedy these days, but I feel it has aged extremely well. I find it hilarious, but humour is subjective... I reckon it's worth a listen, anyway. But you'll have to get in quick, because the first episode will be taken down in two days (sorry).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b008m4f8

Religious Obsessive Compulsive Disorder: 'I'm going to hell'
By Elizabeth Landau, CNN 2014

OCD with religious obsessions is called scrupulosity.
People with scrupulosity
People with scrupulosity
People with scrupulosit

The 10 Commandment Tablets Cont....

So Moses orders the killing of 3000 people.

Exodus 32:28And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

Just as an aside

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

But a few verses later GOD says to Moses

Exodus 33;20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

So I guess the verse about face to face was wrong!

Exodus 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Did GOD show Moses his bottom?

But back to the story

Exodus 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

then

Exodus 34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

But hang on...GOD didn't write on the second set of tables like he said he would In Exodus 34:1

Exodus 34:27-29 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

Cont...

Cont...

And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

So ends the story...

Believe it or not!

When I was taught in Church they always said the tablets were written by the finger of God... They always left out the second bit...

Funny that!

PS I don't have OCD... The Bible is my area of study...Sorry about knowing what's in it better than others...I have studied correctly and you guys haven't!

Most believers haven't read it cover to cover because they stop at the begats...lmao

//The Bible is my area of study//

Yeah, and I'm Mary, Queen of Scots.

//Sorry about knowing what's in it better than others//

Yeah, you know it's all on the internet don't you? And on most people's bookshelves. I mean, unless you've got some sort of special bible (for special people), we're all privy to the same knowledge.

So anyway, how's the old Messiah complex? Not giving you any trouble, I hope?

Not now soon, to condense what I wrote. People of the past were not very educated and religion was used to control people, right through to Roman times. What I am saying is that religious followers believed what was put to them by their rulers and senior elite citizens. Even the most educated of people today are believers, so education is no key to becoming a believer. I maintain that it is a weak, simple and gullible mind that reaches for religion. So here we are 2000 years later and we still have, more than ever, a very large number of the population still believing in one religion or another. I have a problem with religion because I have absolutely nothing to convince me of any true heavenly spirit exists or ever existed. I do however know a little about people or human nature. As I said, all the scriptures were written by people, obviously they were followers. I challenge anyone to give/show/demonstrate ANY evidence of the existence of a GOD. Keep in mind that if there were a GOD, IT would not be in a solid form but gaseous or vapour. I'm really reaching here. Anyway, in closing, that is why I say yes to the question.

It is false to assume as if one's faith in the bible has to depend on the bible's accuracy, feasibility or consistency.

The only good reason for anyone to believe in anything is that it is good for them to so believe.

Whence the need to fill page after page with hateful mockery in the name of science when Exodus 32:15 says: "the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written"? The Jewish understanding is that the tables were carved all the way through, so you could see the light on the other side, yet they could be equally and correctly read from both directions - and not as a mirror image as the constraints of geometry would dictate!

The Jews do not beat around the bush, sheepishly trying to reconcile God with the natural sciences. They tell it unabashed: God can even defy the laws of geometry!

Now my understanding is somewhat different since I do not follow the Abrahamic religions, but all I can say is GOOD ON THEM FOR PUTTING GOD FIRST!

Do you place your faith in the world, including in its laws of physics, logic and geometry, or do you place your faith in God? You cannot do both, you cannot serve two masters, so if your faith is in the former, then you have missed God and live in sin.

---

Dear Altrav,

«I maintain that it is a weak, simple and gullible mind that reaches for religion.»

Of the three, I accept the middle with both arms: SIMPLE. I am all for simplicity and a simple mind is the best mind.

Now the weak and gullible minds reach for the world and its temptations, not for religion. We all rationally understand that our stay on earth is short and none of our works here will remain for long, yet the weak and gullible irrationally follow their insatiable human desires, while the wise and strong rationally forgo such desires, favouring the eternal instead even if they consider it to be only a probability.

"Keep in mind that if there were a GOD, IT would not be in a solid form but gaseous or vapour."

Our learned teacher and brother in Christ says he is spiritual. Almost Christ himself. Well, actually...
Certainly he has the vapour and gas. Charisma . Revelations . Send your cheque and year's susbscription to "Opinionated Ministries of The Wise One".

Yuyutsu, the weak do not have the strength to reject the notion of religion. The gullible do not have the imagination to question the veracity of religion and it's bone-fide.
Nicknamenick, if you believe in God, good for you. If you do you already know that the general opinion is that 'IT' is not human. Fact 1. If God is not human then IT is not in a solid state. Which would ring true with popular belief and the fact that at best God has presented as a voice, not an image. Forget the clap-trap about 'I have created man in my image'. Makes for great theater but absolutely no sense. Anyway, as I said from the start. Religion is a creation of mankind to control and manage the people. There is no magical, spiritual 'world' beyond this one where you go to after death and the Muslims go through one door where they get to live forever with their choice of a dozen virgins. Really? Oh and by the way, did anybody happen to check if those virgins were male or female? Or maybe you get to select to your particular preference, after all you're going to be there for eternity. HAH! Guys the simple truth is we are the product of nature. When we die, we die! We are dead! The lights do out! The end! Fin! The rest is all fantasy and was started because someone wanted power and wealth. End of!

MASS MURDER, INFANTICIDE, AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE!...Moses again!

Numbers 31:7-18 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

....And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

....And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

....And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

....And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

SORRY for interjecting BUT in Numbers 31:7 it said they "slew all the males".

....And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

....And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

....And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

...And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

....Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

Sorry for interjecting again BUT this is where it gets really into the atrocity, mass murder and war crime status. I just didn't want you to miss it!

....Now therefore KILL EVERY MALE AMONGST THE LITTLE ONES...(Babies and toddlers), and KILL EVERY WOMAN THAT HATH KNOWN A MAN BY LYING WITH HIM.

.....But all the WOMEN CHILDREN, that have not known a man by lying with him, KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES.

Cont...

Hang on , I'm still on the first chapter. Slow down.
"Sadducees, and the other Pharisees". What's a Sadducee ?

Self-Op2,

Most of us have probably read all those bits about killing and smiting and hanging from trees and (snigger !) 'enslaving' the women, even the women children, many years ago. All vainglorious boasting, we knew. No, none of it happened. Maybe not. Whatever.

When you get around to the Koran, you will find it all there too, borrowed from the Torah, if in somewhat garbled form - the principles of Islam bear uncanny likenesses to pre-Solomonaic Judaism. Primitive and backward desert cultures after all.

Sternberg has written very copiously on some of this for decades: try this:

https://dspace.lafayette.edu/bitstream/handle/10385/1252/Cohn-HarvardTheologicalReview-vol96-no2-2003.pdf?sequence=1

for a start. He suggests that the Hebrews were, if you like, the rural and peasant brothers and sisters of the urban Canaanites, as part of one society, who rose up, overthrew the city-types and moved in. And of course, within a hundred years, had forgotten all about it, believing they had been distinctly Hebrew for a thousand years. Well, something like that.

Plenty of reading for you to do, Self-Op2 !

Joe

"God is not in a solid state".
What ? Jupiter Zeus father of gods is metallic hydrogen with a magnetic field 450mill. miles long. Can you begin to imagine the gas-metal solid of the hydrogen sun ?
"Jupiter’s atmosphere brews hurricanes twice as wide as Earth itself, monsters that generate 400 mph winds and lightning 100 times brighter than terrestrial bolts. The giant planet also emits a brand of radiation lethal to unprotected humans.

Jupiter's strangest feature, however, may be a 25,000 mile deep soup of exotic fluid sloshing around its interior. It's called liquid metallic hydrogen." God moves in mysterious ways.

MASS MURDER...INFANTICIDE...AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE!...Moses again!...Cont

This is really ugly stuff...Moses ordered the murdering of innocents again...He was quite specific!...It was only the "WOMEN CHILDREN" that were to remain alive. Now I wonder why?

What could have happened to these poor little girls when placed in the hands of these butchering soldiers...How did soldiers test virginity?

Numbers 31:25+...And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

....Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:

....And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:

....And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:

....Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.

SORRY...a heave offering or terumah in Hebrew. Well this is an offering only the priests, their families or their servants could eat...but always only in ritual purity....I knew you wouldn't know.

So 1 in 500 of the persons (nice subtle name change from women children) were given to the priests...Well I'm sure that made them safe...Yeah right!

And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.

And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,

And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,

And threescore and one thousand asses,

And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him....

Cont...

Cont...

SORRY BUT...it's lovely how the WOMEN CHILDREN are placed between the asses and sheep... ".What respect that Moses had for the dignity of children! SCUMBAG!

...And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:

....And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

....And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and twelve.

....And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and one.

....And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.

....And Moses gave the tribute, which was the LORD'S heave offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses.

SORRY! WHAT? GOD got all these animals PLUS 16,000 young girls?

What did GOD do with all his offerings?...Come on this is betting crazier by the second!

Sorry...I'm, feeling a little unwell believing these horrific numbers....BUT let's do the math...If there were 32 thousand virgin WOMEN CHILDREN...How many male babies, male toddlers, young boys and young men were butchered in this horrific story?

Well it would be safe to assume around 32,000 wouldn't it??

REALLY? GOD ORDERED THIS BUTCHERY?

BUT GOD also got lots of jewellery and valuable metals...

Numbers 31-50-52 We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.

....And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.

....And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to the LORD, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels.

COME ON NOW...What would GOD want with all these virgin WOMEN CHILDREN and riches? GOD is the master of the Universe...He owns it all already...Moses made these lies up and you guys believe the crap!!...SHAMEFUL!!

Have a drink, Op2, you're red in the face. You got 2 so far AltRav
and me .

".And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.....

SORRY! WHAT? GOD got 16,000 young girls? ....BUT let's do the math...
16,000 -15,068 =32.
32. That's 16,000. SORRY! I paid too little tax , ATO gets the lot.
(..click click ..bank account )..pay Malcolm all of it , less Chemist bill for aripiprazole and clozapine ."

Dear Altrav,

«Yuyutsu, the weak do not have the strength to reject the notion of religion.»

The weak do not have the strength to reject the temptations of the flesh.

They could possibly have a NOTION of religion, but not religion itself.

«The gullible do not have the imagination to question the veracity of religion and it's bone-fide.»

The gullible lack clear thinking and are therefore led astray to falsely believe that following worldly desires can permanently fulfil those desires and give them peace.

Yes, they might join a church as spectators and treat it just like any other social club. They might also adopt the club's official literature, that being part of the club's social norms and its criteria for social status, without actually reading or understanding it.

And it can happen that a whole organisation, once religious, becomes comprised of such weak and gullible people, thus its original bone-fide religion is forgotten.

To prevent this, we need more SIMPLE people.

Earlier people were saying that the Bible isn't necessarily to be taken literally...

I am sure some people don't....BUT...the majority of believers do take it literally....as the churches teach it literally....along with all the threats of hellfire and damnation to back up their literalism. Never have I heard a preacher say...”You are going to rot in the sulphur lakes of hell if you defy God”'.... But don't take it literally.

Which bits aren't literal then?

Did Jesus die on the cross and come back to life literally?

THE DEATH and RESURECTION....

The reason some people have doubted that JESUS actually died is from the verses of the BIBLE. They also contain contradictions that people just read over.

What was in the wine(vinegar)? Why would they call it vinegar and not wine? And did he really drink it or not? The verses contradict each other as to whether he drank and the substances in the vinegar. PLUS some show two attempts to give JESUS fluid and others only 1 attempt.

John 19:29-30 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put (it) upon hyssop, and put (it) to his mouth.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

OR the differing passage

Mark 15:23 And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received (it) not.

Mark 15:23 mentions the oil Myrrh - http://www.3dchem.com/moremolecules.asp?...20Molmol).

Mark 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put (it) on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.OR the next differing passage. Did he swallow or was just tasting enough to have the desired or intended effect?

Matthew 27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

Matthew 27:34 mentions gall (hemlock)http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/7219.htm Gall means bitter but hemlock (a poison) can cause unconsciousness and death. http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/821362-overview

What did he literally drink?...lmao

Cont...

Matthew 27:48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

Then after he was taken down from the cross.

John 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

"...Nicodemus took Myrrh and Aloes" Myrrh has antiseptic qualities and alloes have healing properties (they are not embalmers) http://www.peacehealth.org/KBASE/cam/hn-2036003.htm

Also 100 lbs is a lot of spice!

Why did Jesus die so quickly compared to others who were crucified?

The believer would never notice these things nor question them...they either suffer very opoor comprehension skills OR more likely religion has turned their brains to mush!

I don't have a red face and congratulations on picking up the 16000 error...Well done!

Most believers, especially the far right nutjobs, and the new wave loons, do take the Bible literally but literally never follow the literal meaning of the words in it....lmao

They judge!

They don't turn the other cheek!

They cast stones!

They lie!

Maybe they are literally illiterate?...lmao

Apparently 1/4 of Christians in the UK don't believe the resurrection happened...lmao Runner will though he also believes in the tooth fairy and Peter Pan...lmao

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-39153121

OOPS!

//the majority of believers do take it literally//

[citation needed]

//as the churches teach it literally//

[citation needed]

//along with all the threats of hellfire and damnation to back up their literalism//

[citation needed]

//Never have I heard a preacher say...”You are going to rot in the sulphur lakes of hell if you defy God”//

Yeah, I've never heard a priest say that either. Fire & brimstone preaching is very old fashioned and not commonly practised these days. Sounds to me like you've been attending entirely the wrong churches.

//Which bits aren't literal then?//

Well, all of the metaphorical, symbolic, allegorical etc. bits of course.

If you have trouble distinguishing between non-fiction and fiction it might be best to just stick to non-fiction, Opiated2heavily.

The 16000 is a major point for you and your case hangs on accuracy / inaccuracy. Now you're asking questions . Is this for real ? A new Oppy who talks to the dills?

To ALTRAV.

[I maintain that it is a weak, simple and gullible mind that reaches for religion.]

I would like to see something to support this claim that doesn't include another unsupported claim.

Those who reach for religion can very likely be counted as weak. Not weak minded, but struggling in life. Often there are stories of people reaching for God in their desprate times, some to stay others to move on after their desprate plea is made and they eventually are in a better place. Those who reach for religion ( any religion) might be desprate ("weak" if you are cold hearted to them), but those who stay in those beliefs aren't weak as much as they are dedicated.

As for gullible and simple, again I'd like to see some kind of way to support that claim. Survey the religous and the agnostic over a variety of topics. See if there is a difference in the populations. In my opinion it's an unsupported claim that is held as fact.

[I have a problem with religion because I have absolutely nothing to convince me of any true heavenly spirit exists or ever existed.]

Have you looked on your own? As much as I'd like to, I don't think I have the ability to drag anyone to finding God. My own proof comes from my own experiences. They are not repeatable and therefore not as easy to confirm. A few times in the bible Jesus references the need to search for God. Once saying seek and you will find, and a second Jesus says the world does not know God because it does not look for Him. There might be more merrit to looking for God instead of waiting for someone else to look for you and bring back evidence. Just a thought.

A place to start. Ask. Ask God if He is real. If you don't get an answer your no worse then you were before, so there're nothing to lose. On the other hand who knows. Sometimes our prayers are answered, often in ways we don't expect.

Oh Toni you are back to being Tweedle Dumb again....anyone can do the citation needed rubbish...Did you think it made you sound intellectual?...lmao

//Fire & brimstone preaching is very old fashioned and not commonly practised these days.// [citation needed]

You may have something to offer this thread but silly nonsensical jibes are just a waste of time...please grow up!

Do they teach the flood as fact?

Do they teach the Passover as fact?

And you think they have dropped satan, hell and the hellfires as part of the lessons?

Some churches think that God enters through their hands when they pray... lmao

Nick...surprise...I sometimes make a deliberate error to let Nick(nit) pickers like you think you had a win...Congrats you won “the only person to notice the deliberate error award”...lmao

How are the healings going believers? Any of you people who believe God answers your prayers had any success? Of course not...You lie about prayers being answered. NNS you said you know God...Any luck?...lol

Remember Jesus said you can do it...NOT ME...I have so much faith in you as know nothing failures...I expected the result you have provided...NOTHING!

JESUS said

John 14:12-14 Very truly I tell you, WHOEVER BELIEVES IN ME (Jesus) will do the works I have been doing, and THEY (You guys) WILL DO EVEN GREATER THINGS THAN THESE, because I am going to the Father.

And WHATSOEVER YE (You believers) SHALL ASK IN MY NAME, THAT I WILL DO, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If ye (You believers) shall ask ANY THING IN MY NAME, I WILL DO IT.

Your faith doesn't even achieve what Jesus unequivocally states...

To the tune Jesus loves me...

You failed Jesus this I know
Cause you couldn't heal a single toe
Little faith won't make you belong
Your faith is weak so you are wrong!

Yes! Your lack of faith failed you!
Yes! Your lack of faith failed you!
Yes! Your lack of faith failed you!
Jesus in the Bible told me so!

You sang that with such enthusiasm. Failing obviously suits you!...lmao

"..I sometimes make a deliberate error to let Nick(nit) pickers like you think you had a win...Congrats you won “the only person to notice the deliberate error award"
Apart from the bare faced lie , mate, it means you have no interest in sensible discussion. Your copy-paste frenzy is a dud, dill.

Hey Nick...That was a compliment...You just took it the wrong way...Ok perhaps I could have worded it better but it's the way I test the believers and their lack of an eye for detail! Christmas...Have you been tricked into a Pagan celebration? December 25 has several Pagan routes. Mithra was allegedly born December 25. Mithra was the GOD Constantine believed in. Paganism has always been interlaced with Christianity because of Constantine. The whole Constantine story is rubbish. He most likely made it up to get Roman soldiers who were Christian on side. And there is evidence to show this... 1. The crosses on the shields of Constantine's army are depicted in the Vatican... OOps they got it wrong. 2. Just outside the Colosseum, Constantine erected an arch of Constantine to himself... No crosses on shields or Christian icons anywhere only Pagan symbols. 3. Eusebias' was a Christian and a Bishop and yet in his first account of the battle at the Milvian Bridge he doesn't mention Constantine's visions or the crosses on the sheilds story. - Very strange indeed. 4. The first time the vision and the crosses on shields story was told by Constantine was some 13 years later at a banquet and is documented by Eusebius his Christian historian. Constantine blended Mithra and Christianity for political purposes.. Aint accurate historical study wonderful... But what life events did the Egyptian GOD Horus have similar to Jesus. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5d.htm The links between Paganism, Egypt, and Christianity are amazing! Enjoy choking on your turkeys as you digest some historical information,,,lmao 32 chews now for each bit you didn't know...lol

Op2.

When are you going to tell us about all the bastards that various Popes sired over the generations?

You could start with Innocent* VIII (1484-92) and go forward or back.

*Now there's a great name for a Cassocked (male fowl)man.