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The Forum > General Discussion > The US Senate Report into CIA Torture.

The US Senate Report into CIA Torture.

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Hi there DAVID F...

You say there are thousands of undocumented aliens in the United States, and they don't cause any problems ? Actually I'm not so sure ? I will admit there are thousands of 'wetbacks' working in those US States closest to the Rio Grande who provide an excellent labour alternative in such industries as Fast Food and many others employed as 'short order cooks', nannies etc.

But there's another negative consequence of these unregistered workers undertaking many of the rapidly shrinking, unskilled, repetitive jobs. They're denying many of the ordinary Americans, legitimate employment ? These are individuals, most of them have never completed High School, (often through no fault of their own), who genuinely rely on these unskilled jobs to support their families.

I'd refer you to the book; 'Deer Hunting with Jesus' and the follow-up tome; 'Rainbow Pie', both by the late Joe BAGEANT. Therein he describes the poor, debt ridden, working class, ordinary yank, battling the burgeoning 'class war', complicated by many of these disappearing unskilled jobs going to unregistered wetbacks, and other illegal aliens ? Look DAVID F, I've always harboured a soft spot for Mexicans, (essentially pound for pound, the best (lighter divisions) pugs on earth) and I've had quite a bit to do with them, over the years.

Nevertheless, many of these 'wets' are in reality denying many of the poorer 'legitimate' American citizen, paying work, sad but true ? I'd strongly commend both of Joe BAGEANT'S books, if you have a desire to observe the real 'working poor' in their habitat - he makes no delineation along race lines neither.
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 13 December 2014 1:09:09 PM
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Dear Paul1405,

There is an ugly exploitive side to the US economy. However, we usually get a choice between evils not good and evil. Last century’s challengers to the US as superpower were Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia both totalitarian one party dictatorships which murdered millions based on race or class. The choice between the US, Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia is a no-brainer. When I was born in the US in 1925 there was no way a dark skinned man could rise to high office; there was no social security; many things that exist today did not exist then. However, there was free speech and a free press which gave the opportunity to work for desirable change, and the striving and hope continues.

You wrote: “....The American Constitution is an outstanding document which was way ahead of its time in the belief that all men are created equal. ...."

The statement that ‘all men are created equal’ is not in the Constitution but in the Declaration of Independence which does not have the force of law. Thomas Jefferson, a slave owner, wrote the document. It was not until after the Civil War that the Constitution had provisions abolishing slavery. In spite of the fact that the US has a black president there is still much racism in the US, and there have been several recent instances of US policeman killing unarmed black men.

Dear Is Mise,

The Second Amendment of the US Constitution states:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The US Supreme Court has ignored the first part of the amendment and ruled that the right vests in individuals while also ruling that the right is not unlimited and does not prohibit all regulation of either firearms or similar devices.

Australia had a firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population in 1911 of 0.86 while the US had a rate of 10.30 in the same year. Howard did a good thing for Australia when he limited gun ownership.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 13 December 2014 1:34:41 PM
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Hey there PAUL1405, that's not very nice ol' boy considering you berated me for using unseemly words and language ? Here I am a contrite, inoffensive and compliant old bugger, since you were kind enough to provide me with some remedial skills, and lo be hold, you're doing 'one of me'. It could prove hurtful if one were to be sensitive you know ? And I'd think comparing anybody to being a lackey, of one of history's most evil people, is the ultimate level of disparagement ! Com'n PAUL1405, you're better than that !
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 13 December 2014 1:37:42 PM
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david f'

'The Second Amendment of the US Constitution states:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The US Supreme Court has ignored the first part of the amendment and ruled that the right vests in individuals while also ruling that the right is not unlimited and does not prohibit all regulation of either firearms or similar devices'

I don't think that the Supreme Court has ignored the first part of the Amendment at all; as in that sentence the existence of the 'well regulated militia' rests upon 'the right of the people to bear arms'.

Two weeks ago an article in the Sydney "Sun Herald" discussing guns in America mentioned "....the right to bare arms" but omitted to mention that Australians have that right also.

John Howard, the Father of the Australian Gun Lobby, wore a bullet proof vest then denied the same protection to workers in vulnerable jobs, the action of a coward.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 13 December 2014 1:54:11 PM
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Dear o sung wu,

There are unskilled repetitive jobs that the undocumented aliens take in the US. That is the reason that most come to the US.

However, there are two sides to the coin. Many of these jobs would simply be unfilled as most US citizens will not take them. The aliens contribute to the US economy. Quite possibly they do more good than harm. The jobs they take from US citizens who could fill them are a loss. The jobs they fill that US citizens would not fill are a gain. However, your original point that Hansen-Young is flaky is not borne out by the experience with the US aliens. In general they are neither criminals nor terrorists just people trying to do better economically than they could in their countries of origin. That is part of why my grandfather came to the US. The other reason that he came to the US was that marriages had been arranged for my grandmother and him, and they wanted each other. I owe my existence to them.

The boat people coming to Australia are a somewhat different story. They are in many cases fleeing countries where they are oppressed. Those coming from Sri Lanka are primarily Tamils who are fleeing a government dominated by Sinhalese who are hostile to Tamils. On orders from the government the Australian Navy turned the Tamils over to the Sri Lankan Navy. That act was simply despicable. That despicable act has been accepted by the Australian public due to the climate of hate and fear encouraged by Labor and the Libs.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 13 December 2014 2:10:11 PM
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David F,
There's no such thing as an unarmed man and race wasn't a factor in any of the recent high profile cases in the U.S, Eric Garner was a massively overweight, diabetic asthmatic with a record of assaulting police, he wasn't killed by the momentary chokehold (a move which is legal but discouraged as risky) and the supervising sergeant who was overseeing his arrest from the sidelines was a Black woman.
Tamir Rice was threatening and intimidating people with what turned out to be an air pistol, there's a video of him walking up to pedestrians pointing the gun at them or drawing it and pointing it at their backs as they pass him, when the police arrived and screamed at him to put his hands up he went for the gun and was shot.
The officers described Rice as being about 20 years old in their radio dispatch but hey, it's not 12 year old kids wielding firearms are at all dangerous right?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/new-mexico-school-shooter-chose-victims-random-police-article-1.1580998

Mike Brown was a thug with an extensive juvenile criminal record who'd just committed an armed robbery and who decided to attack and beat an armed police officer instead of comply with his instructions. The whole circus started because his armed robbery partner chose to fabricate a story about "St Swisher" being shot in the back.
*Trigger warning, the following articles contain whitesplaining, logic and facts*
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/393676/finding-meaning-ferguson-heather-mac-donald
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/john-perazzo/police-shootings-race-in-an-age-of-lies/
Furthermore Obama isn't an African American, he's a White presenting mixed race man, his African appearance comes from his Kenyan father, he's not descended from West African slaves like his wife and her family.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 13 December 2014 2:15:37 PM
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