The United States of America professes to be the “Land of the free and home of the brave” it has shockingly been revealed this week that it is also the “Land of the torturer, and home of the state murderer.” Acts of torture that one would expect totalitarian and fanatical regimes to carry out have routinely been performed on prisoners of the US in such places as Guantanamo Bay. Many have long suspected the United States was engaged in acts of torture on suspected terrorists, but now it has been confirmed with a damaging US Senate Report into CIA torture tactics.
The US has come in for criticism from the United Nations and foreign governments for its human rights violations. The report concluded CIA torture tactics were ineffective and often brutal in the extreme with such acts as “rectal feeding”, forceful rectal examinations, mock executions, Russian roulette, threats to prisoners of murder of family, sexual abuse to others and threats to prisoner’s children. At least one prisoner died of hypothermia as a result of torture.
How can anyone condone such barbarism from a country that claims to be a free and democratic society, and the upholder of civil liberty?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/10/white-house-cia-torture-report

Dear Paul,

We can never be sure that any entity or any government always does right. However, one thing that differentiates a free from a totalitarian government is the capacity of the government or the people to point out that the government has done wrong. The wrongs that the CIA has committed have been acknowledged and examined by a US Senate report. The US Senate is part of the US government. A government that can criticise its actions can also correct its wrongs. The fact that it was a US Senate Report that condemned the CIA actions indicates that the US is a free and democratic society.

Could parliament condemn a government action in Australia? Of course not. The government in Australia is parliament. Australia does not have separate executive and legislative bodies. They are one and the same. The UN has condemned Australia's treatment of asylum seekers. The government of Australia which is part of parliament will of course defend it. There will be no parliamentary report on the abuse of asylum seekers coming from the Australian parliament. Australia might benefit from the separation of powers which is specified in the US Constitution.

Paul1405,

If you and the Trotskyist watermelon Greens didn't have such an irrational hatred of the US you would realise the proof of its positives lies in the heart-searching over this and the inevitability of court (and election poll) ramifications for those responsible.

Why in the world do people flee to the US from those dreadful Maxist social experiments and other *bleep*hole totalitarian states?

Name anywhere else than one of the western democracies where the whinging, indolent Watermelon Greens could ride the guvvy gravy train, while at the same time bordering on treachery in their lying BS?

You're right of course Paul about Guantanamo Bay. The US should have used the Islamic state method, & decapitated the ba##ards on capture. It is a huge waste of money feeding then for year.

As for 9/11, if it happened here, & a bunch of wogs killed thousands of our citizens, I would want whatever was necessary done to stop it happening again.

If that involved jamming the Geneva convention, printed on a pineapple up the backside, or down the throat of known fellow travellers, so be it.

I never could understand why the Poms let the IRA use their troops for target practice & much worse, then treated the buggers as if they were human when they were caught.

Turning the other cheek is a recipe for dying young.

Pfft, so what, the allies tortured false confessions of war crimes out of German soldiers in 1945-46 which provided the evidence for the Nuremberg trials.
You don't torture people to get information, you torture them to get confessions or to make them say what you want them to say, even hardened SS generals cracked and signed the papers when their testicles were smashed by their British and American interrogators.

Like Paul I am also a Green but have a great admiration for the US. I have never heard anyone at a Green meeting advocate Marxism. As a Green I want to maintain our environment so future generations will have a decent world to live in. As a Green I want to see everyone have a fair go.

Speaking of irrational hatred onthebeach expressed it for the Greens.

As far as decapitation, condemning people without trial and ignoring the Geneva Convention I’ll leave that sort of thing to the Jihadis and Hasbeen.

The reason the British treated their enemies as human is simply because they were human. On all sides of every human conflict are humans. Atrocities happen when we forget that.

Dear Jay of Melbourne,

What is your evidence for the Nazis being tortured for the Nuremberg trials?

You know, I often wonder what would happen if Australia was involved in another World War ? It would appear that we have so much anti-American feeling within our community, together with groups like the Greens, and the many other, 'anti this' and 'anti that' ? I wonder whether we could even raise an additional Battalion, above our regular forces strength to defend our country ?

We seem to have lost any degree of nationalism or pride, that we once had, and I don't understand why ? Surely everybody must realise we live in the best country in the universe ? And without the United States to afford us some meaningful protection, any potential enemy would crush us, in very short order !

david f,

Come off the grass, you don't get much more Trotskyist and anti-US than some associated with the 'Watermelon' Greens faction. Bob Brown had heaps of trouble with them, but you prefer to forget that inconvenient fact.

Although flakey Green leftism and anti-US sentiment run deep in the Greens anyhow.

Dear onthebeach,

I have been a Green for several years and have not witnessed any of the stuff you're accusing Greens of. You should come off it.

Hi there DAVID F...

As a member of the Greens, have you met the indomitable Ms Sarah Hansen-Young ? The reason I ask, I find some of her more progressive and contentious views, quite interesting particularly for those held in Detention ?

David F.
How Britain tortured Nazi PoWs: The horrifying interrogation methods that belie our proud boast that we fought a clean war
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223831/How-Britain-tortured-Nazi-PoWs-The-horrifying-interrogation-methods-belie-proud-boast-fought-clean-war.html
HOW ALLIES TREATED GERMAN POWs
http://www.whale.to/b/walsh11.html
There were two U.S judicial inquiries into the treatment of suspects at the Nuremberg trials, the Simpson inquiry found that:
"[The US Simpson Inquiry Commission] reported among other things that of the 139 cases they had investigated, 137 had had their testicles permanently destroyed by kicks received from the American War Crimes Investigating Team."

Pennsylvania judge Edward L. Van Roden – member of the commission investigating the accusations by Colonel Everett who reported that Germans did not receive fair trial, wrote in his book titled “American Atrocities in Germany“:
"Our investigators would put a black hood over the accused’s head and then punch him in the face with brass knuckles, kick him, and beat him with rubber hose. Many of the German defendants had teeth knocked out. Some had their jaws broken. All but two of the Germans, in the 139 cases we investigated, had been kicked in the testicles beyond repair."

How the British Obtained the Confessions of Rudolf Höss
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p389_Faurisson.html

Dear o sung wu,

I haven't met her. However, I think she has legitimate questions about asylum seekers who have been held in detention.

All members of the Greens are not above reproach. All members of any political party are not above reproach. However, since Greens are not in power nor are likely to be in power in the near future it is reasonable to assume that people join the Greens because they favour their policies and not to feather their own nests.

Statements claiming that we live in the best nation in the universe are unreasonable. I like it here. I think Australia is a great country. However, I assume other people feel that way about the countries where they live. Can't we just live here, appreciate Australia and try to make Australia as good as it can be without putting down other countries. Such statements claiming that we live in the best nation in the universe sound like "Deutschland uber alles." That sort of statement stinks.

Davd F,
You can assume that the Australian interrogators on Manus Island and in Hong Kong in 1945-51 tortured Japanese war crimes suspects as well, as I said, torture is used to get someone to say what you want them to say, not to get them to tell you something you don't know.
The Japanese soldiers got a bit of a break though, in the end they were charged and tried under the Australian military laws which were applicable during the period of hostilities in New Guinea and although some 150 Japanese prisoners were hanged most were paroled in the 1950's
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/fact-sheets/fs61.aspx

david f,

Maybe you are telling porkies to protect the Greens. Here is Bob Brown desperately trying to contain an conceal the Greens Watermelon faction,

http://tinyurl.com/watermelon-greens

Here too, see in particular the comments on the NSW Greens Watermelons, and many more media reports in the if you like,

http://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2014/february/1391173200/guy-rundle/future-greens

Dear Jay of Melbourne,

Thank you for that. I think Faurisson is a doubtful source, but the others seem quite credible.

I agree with your statement that torture is not to gain information. It is to make people say what the torturer wants them to say.

Dear onthebeach,

I was not telling porkies. What I said about my experience with the Greens is what I witnessed. There certainly may be people with many agendas in the Greens. Bob Brown has had problems with them. However, I have not met anyone with the Queensland Greens expressing views like those you mentioned. I have never heard Israel or any other foreign policy issue discussed except for the issue of the asylum seekers. I had never heard the term, watermelons, for some Greens until you mentioned it.

david f, "torture is not to gain information"

Nonsense.

It works too, and most parents would soon demonstrate the efficacy if offered the opportunity to put a size 10 into the groin of their child's kidnapper to encourage him to divulge the kid's hiding place.

Criminals lie, that is the problem. So all admissions, voluntary (yeah, right!) and otherwise have to be checked anyhow.

Hi DAVID F...

I too think the Greens would do a reasonably good job protecting our natural environment, our flora and fauna. Where they seem to drift into the more bizarre areas, is amongst the other political decision making that's nothing to do with our environment ? I've listened to Ms Hanson-Young, and some of the things she says concerning immigration and Detention, is just plain 'loopy' ? In fact she's so far out, I believe she's an embarrassment to the whole Green movement ?

Dear o sung wu,

Please cite the statements you think are loopy. Maybe I will agree. Maybe I won't.

Hi DavidF, I share the sentiments of o sung wu, "the Greens would do a reasonably good job protecting our natural environment, our flora and fauna. Where they seem to drift into the more bizarre areas, is amongst the other political decision making that's nothing to do with our environment."

It's exactly that, that caused me to terminate my Greenpeace membership way back in the 90's. Greenpeace in New Zealand became so radical they were even disowned by Greenpeace International.

If the Greens would stick to their core values (ecological sustainability, social justice, grassroots democracy and peace and non-violence) I could be a potential supporter or at least a supporter in spirit. But I cannot support the loopy extreme Left that has evolved over the past 20 years anymore than I can the loopy extreme Right. It appears to me that feminism, gay rights/marriage, refugees, immigration, climate change and anti-Americanism have become the primary agenda of the leaders within the Green Party.

David F,
Robert Faurisson isn't a source, he's a reporter, all the same information is available to both orthodox and unorthodox historians.
In the end though the post WW2 narrative isn't about historical fact it's about imparting a set of values, the who what when and where are unimportant.
Look we all agree that the U.S coerces confessions through physical torture to support the post 9-11 narrative, the dubious nature of the confessions tendered at Nuremberg further supports the conclusion that this is the modus operandi of the intelligence services of the Atlantic powers and their allies.
Nobody is saying the Gestapo or NKVD didn't torture people then parade them before show trials before executing them, they most definitely did and there's a paper trail to prove it just as there's documentary proof of "enhanced interrogation" at Guantanamo, Bagram and elsewhere.
Confessions of misdemeanour from enemy combatants and treason from citizens are a powerful propaganda tool but the people who were being propagandised in the 1930's and 1940's were just as smart as the public today so confessions and trials have to be at least superficially plausible for the psychological effect to take hold. The prisoner must be made to actually submit to the captor's demands, in other words he has to be broken and these Al Qaeda guys are just as tough and resilient as the SS men in the 1940's.

ConservativeHippie wrote: It appears to me that feminism, gay rights/marriage, refugees, immigration, climate change and anti-Americanism have become the primary agenda of the leaders within the Green Party.

Dear ConservativeHippie,

I see feminism as simply equal rights for women – equal pay for equal work and equality in other areas. I see gay rights as equal rights for homosexuals. I see no reason why homosexuals and women should not have equal rights with heterosexual men.

On immigration I do not agree since I think Australia should not add to its population to any great extent.

Climate change is a reality that should be taken into consideration and dealt with.

I have not heard anti-Americanism from any of the Greens that I have met or dealt with. I certainly am not anti-American.

I think environmental sustainability is still the basic Green policy, and I don’t think we can have that without taking climate change into account.

I agree with more of the Greens’ policies than I do with the policies of any other party and therefore am a Green.

Dear Jay of Melbourne,

I don’t think Faurisson is simply a reporter. I think he is grinding the axe of Holocaust Denial in spite of the evidence that the Holocaust happened.

Hasbeen sounds as though he has no limits. He approves of torture. However, faced with the reality he might be a decent human being and refuse to torture. I don't know. We can say a lot of things that we wouldn't do when faced with reality.

David F, depends on your definition of holocaust, there's irrefutable evidence of thousands of people being driven away from concentration camps to remote areas in Poland then shot, of hangings and firing squads. All the requisition forms for trucks, buses, ammunition etc and the orders to carry out mass executions have been examined in minute detail.
Some of the SS men and camp guards who were summarily executed or tried after the war were guilty of murder, there were some pretty gruesome characters in their ranks but the confessions and eyewitness testimonials which make up the basis of the orthodox holocaust narrative have been de-bunked over and over again yet still repeated.
The most recent is the risible Sturdy-Colls report on Treblinka which fell apart as soon as it aired:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZBcX3NDcXw

Hi there DAVID F...

The main issue in terms of being 'loopy' attributed to Ms HANSON-YOUNG; where she demands, that all refugees currently held in detention, should be immediately released into the community, without first being subjected to a thorough security screening, in order to establish their bona fides, and eligibility for refugee status ?

Moreover, I would respectfully suggest Ms HANSON-YOUNG is utterly reckless, and really quite ignorant for 'not' considering even the most basic safety prerequisites of the community, by advocating such an irrational and wholly foolish process. All for the purpose of satisfying her own unappeasable urge to be acknowledged as the great altruist to the cause of unconstrained immigration. Apparently, to the complete exclusion of her fellow Australian's safety considerations.

O sung wu,
http://media.domain.com.au/news/national-news/broken-borders-australias-immigration-crisis-5656502.html

david f Quote "The reason the British treated their enemies as human is simply because they were human. On all sides of every human conflict are humans. Atrocities happen when we forget that."

Apparently you have not heard of what they got up to in Africa.

Phillip S,
Anglo Boere Oorlog/Boer War (1899-1902) British Concentration Camps
http://www.geni.com/projects/Anglo-Boere-Oorlog-Boer-War-1899-1902-British-Concentration-Camps/854

David f, as a fellow Green I see America in two lights. On the one hand a country that has achieved much for mankind through inventiveness and determination. The American Constitution is an outstanding document which was way ahead of its time in the belief that all men are created equal. Through both good fortune and hard work immigrants to the New World were able to build a country which gave opportunity to millions from Europe who would otherwise never have had such a chance in life in their Old World. Almost in our lifetime we owe the Americans a debt of gratitude for stopping the spread of Fascism and Japanese imperialism during WWII. American inventiveness and ingenuity has brought the world so much.
The other side to America is not so beautiful, downright ugly in fact, the hypocrisy of the country caused by it blinding pursuit of Capitalism has caused much death and destruction in the world, from the very beginning there was no freedom or liberty for native Americans or black slaves from Africa, millions of white people were driven into poverty by massive capitalists exploitation. To this day America has used it great military might to unjustly dominate the world, it has done little to help the people of the third world in South America, Africa and Asia. When it had the resources to do so much good, it chose the way of greed, and subjugated and exploited people.
On a personal note, the majority of Americans I have met have been the nicest of people and I certainly wish them no harm. As for our forum fascists and raving right wingers, the day they start to agree with us is the day to quit the party as it would have failed us, our beliefs and our principles, we would have become like them!. The day they stop commenting and criticizing is also the day to quit, as we have become irrelevant and are no longer effective. I enjoy reading your posts; they make a refreshing change from the nauseating nonsense of some others.

Hasbeen,

"I never could understand why the Poms let the IRA use their troops for target practice & much worse, then treated the buggers as if they were human when they were caught"

Is that why there was an inquiry into the torture of suspected IRA members by the British Army and Police?

Paul,

"....The American Constitution is an outstanding document which was way ahead of its time in the belief that all men are created equal. ...."

So the Second Amendment has your approval?
It certainly means that all have the opportunity to be equal in self defence, unlike the policy of the Greens and most other political parties in Australia where to possess anything for the purpose of self defence is a crime..

Dear o sung wu,

I don’t think Hansen-Young is flaky. The US has millions of undocumented aliens on the loose without being in detention camps. They have not presented any great problem. If those in the detention camps were released into the community they could be monitored unlike the many undocumented aliens in the US. The aliens guilty of carrying out the 9/11 attack in the US were legally in the country. I don’t think the boat people would present a problem if released into the community.

I think the irresponsible ones are those like Tony Abbott and Kevin Rudd who have treated the boat people as though they are a great menace which we need protection against. I think the ones we need protection against are those like Tony Abbott and Kevin Rudd who appeal to and exacerbate a climate of fear and hate.

Dear Philip S,

Humans can do terrible things. However, they still are human regardless of what they have done. They should not be tortured since, in English Common Law, no person shall be forced to testify against himself. In our system people are innocent until proven guilty. When they are proven guilty of a crime they may be liable to some penalty. In the United States “cruel and unusual” punishment is banned by the Constitution. Therefore torture is illegal even if the person has been proven guilty of a crime. If the Supreme Court of the US should decide that the death penalty is “cruel and unusual” punishment that would outlaw the death penalty.

Whether a person is a Nazi, Jihadi, terrorist etc. they should be treated decently when in our custody and should not be tortured. Those who torture them should be subject to the full penalties of law. The fact that others may do terrible things does not justify their maltreatment by us.

I appeal to the Golden Rule. I would not want to be tortured for any reason. Therefore I would not torture others for any reason.

Jay,

Scorched earth policies committed by the Brits. Just as they did in Sudan and Ireland. Divide and conquer was their motto.

Also, I do know that immigration is in a mess. Am there. They do not have the resources or time to check fraud in which there is plenty of.

David f,

You don’t think the boat people would cause a problem? Really? They already have. The difference between the aliens in Australia and aliens in the US is that we have the unchecked Muslims, and they have many Christian Latinos in the workforce. Big difference!

The ones without documents end up staying here. Not good.

And I am aware of your biases.

david f - Everything you say people and countries should do to other people is good BUT America and its puppy dog (followers) are doing the exact opposite, even to there own people.

Examples, NSA spying, drone strikes on Americans and others without any trial to determine guilt not to mention the thousands of innocent civilians collateral damage.
You are more likely to die in America at the hands of the militarized police than by any terrorist.
This list of hypocritical things could go on for pages, but I am sure you are aware of the things but do not want to change your biased views

So the two Green posters agree that all men were created equal?
Created, really?
See this is why we make fun of you and call your movement a right wing,religious cult.
It certainly ticks all the boxes for a religion, low time preference behaviour (the idea that the greater value is gained over time), eschatology, the belief in an elect group (educated, thinking people of some means), belief in the supernatural(the eyes of the world are upon us), equality on the basis of divine will.

See that's the difference, if you don't believe in the supernatural you can't believe in equality, science shows us that nature doesn't do equality, so treating some people as disposable or torturing them can be scientifically rationalised and easily justified in materialist schools of thought.

"See this is why we make fun of you and call your movement a right wing,religious cult."
Jay, run off and play with your Hitler doll and forget about The Greens, keep believing Adolf was a good bloke, just misunderstood, and the Holocaust never happened, in fact forget WWII ever happened, it was a bad experience all round for your side, defeat is never pleasant. I have never met you, but I picture you as Heinrich Himmler's twin brother right down to the snappy black uniform. Your cohort Beach might be Hermann Goering double.

Hi there DAVID F...

You say there are thousands of undocumented aliens in the United States, and they don't cause any problems ? Actually I'm not so sure ? I will admit there are thousands of 'wetbacks' working in those US States closest to the Rio Grande who provide an excellent labour alternative in such industries as Fast Food and many others employed as 'short order cooks', nannies etc.

But there's another negative consequence of these unregistered workers undertaking many of the rapidly shrinking, unskilled, repetitive jobs. They're denying many of the ordinary Americans, legitimate employment ? These are individuals, most of them have never completed High School, (often through no fault of their own), who genuinely rely on these unskilled jobs to support their families.

I'd refer you to the book; 'Deer Hunting with Jesus' and the follow-up tome; 'Rainbow Pie', both by the late Joe BAGEANT. Therein he describes the poor, debt ridden, working class, ordinary yank, battling the burgeoning 'class war', complicated by many of these disappearing unskilled jobs going to unregistered wetbacks, and other illegal aliens ? Look DAVID F, I've always harboured a soft spot for Mexicans, (essentially pound for pound, the best (lighter divisions) pugs on earth) and I've had quite a bit to do with them, over the years.

Nevertheless, many of these 'wets' are in reality denying many of the poorer 'legitimate' American citizen, paying work, sad but true ? I'd strongly commend both of Joe BAGEANT'S books, if you have a desire to observe the real 'working poor' in their habitat - he makes no delineation along race lines neither.

Dear Paul1405,

There is an ugly exploitive side to the US economy. However, we usually get a choice between evils not good and evil. Last century’s challengers to the US as superpower were Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia both totalitarian one party dictatorships which murdered millions based on race or class. The choice between the US, Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia is a no-brainer. When I was born in the US in 1925 there was no way a dark skinned man could rise to high office; there was no social security; many things that exist today did not exist then. However, there was free speech and a free press which gave the opportunity to work for desirable change, and the striving and hope continues.

You wrote: “....The American Constitution is an outstanding document which was way ahead of its time in the belief that all men are created equal. ...."

The statement that ‘all men are created equal’ is not in the Constitution but in the Declaration of Independence which does not have the force of law. Thomas Jefferson, a slave owner, wrote the document. It was not until after the Civil War that the Constitution had provisions abolishing slavery. In spite of the fact that the US has a black president there is still much racism in the US, and there have been several recent instances of US policeman killing unarmed black men.

Dear Is Mise,

The Second Amendment of the US Constitution states:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The US Supreme Court has ignored the first part of the amendment and ruled that the right vests in individuals while also ruling that the right is not unlimited and does not prohibit all regulation of either firearms or similar devices.

Australia had a firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population in 1911 of 0.86 while the US had a rate of 10.30 in the same year. Howard did a good thing for Australia when he limited gun ownership.

Hey there PAUL1405, that's not very nice ol' boy considering you berated me for using unseemly words and language ? Here I am a contrite, inoffensive and compliant old bugger, since you were kind enough to provide me with some remedial skills, and lo be hold, you're doing 'one of me'. It could prove hurtful if one were to be sensitive you know ? And I'd think comparing anybody to being a lackey, of one of history's most evil people, is the ultimate level of disparagement ! Com'n PAUL1405, you're better than that !

david f'

'The Second Amendment of the US Constitution states:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The US Supreme Court has ignored the first part of the amendment and ruled that the right vests in individuals while also ruling that the right is not unlimited and does not prohibit all regulation of either firearms or similar devices'

I don't think that the Supreme Court has ignored the first part of the Amendment at all; as in that sentence the existence of the 'well regulated militia' rests upon 'the right of the people to bear arms'.

Two weeks ago an article in the Sydney "Sun Herald" discussing guns in America mentioned "....the right to bare arms" but omitted to mention that Australians have that right also.

John Howard, the Father of the Australian Gun Lobby, wore a bullet proof vest then denied the same protection to workers in vulnerable jobs, the action of a coward.

Dear o sung wu,

There are unskilled repetitive jobs that the undocumented aliens take in the US. That is the reason that most come to the US.

However, there are two sides to the coin. Many of these jobs would simply be unfilled as most US citizens will not take them. The aliens contribute to the US economy. Quite possibly they do more good than harm. The jobs they take from US citizens who could fill them are a loss. The jobs they fill that US citizens would not fill are a gain. However, your original point that Hansen-Young is flaky is not borne out by the experience with the US aliens. In general they are neither criminals nor terrorists just people trying to do better economically than they could in their countries of origin. That is part of why my grandfather came to the US. The other reason that he came to the US was that marriages had been arranged for my grandmother and him, and they wanted each other. I owe my existence to them.

The boat people coming to Australia are a somewhat different story. They are in many cases fleeing countries where they are oppressed. Those coming from Sri Lanka are primarily Tamils who are fleeing a government dominated by Sinhalese who are hostile to Tamils. On orders from the government the Australian Navy turned the Tamils over to the Sri Lankan Navy. That act was simply despicable. That despicable act has been accepted by the Australian public due to the climate of hate and fear encouraged by Labor and the Libs.

David F,
There's no such thing as an unarmed man and race wasn't a factor in any of the recent high profile cases in the U.S, Eric Garner was a massively overweight, diabetic asthmatic with a record of assaulting police, he wasn't killed by the momentary chokehold (a move which is legal but discouraged as risky) and the supervising sergeant who was overseeing his arrest from the sidelines was a Black woman.
Tamir Rice was threatening and intimidating people with what turned out to be an air pistol, there's a video of him walking up to pedestrians pointing the gun at them or drawing it and pointing it at their backs as they pass him, when the police arrived and screamed at him to put his hands up he went for the gun and was shot.
The officers described Rice as being about 20 years old in their radio dispatch but hey, it's not 12 year old kids wielding firearms are at all dangerous right?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/new-mexico-school-shooter-chose-victims-random-police-article-1.1580998

Mike Brown was a thug with an extensive juvenile criminal record who'd just committed an armed robbery and who decided to attack and beat an armed police officer instead of comply with his instructions. The whole circus started because his armed robbery partner chose to fabricate a story about "St Swisher" being shot in the back.
*Trigger warning, the following articles contain whitesplaining, logic and facts*
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/393676/finding-meaning-ferguson-heather-mac-donald
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/john-perazzo/police-shootings-race-in-an-age-of-lies/
Furthermore Obama isn't an African American, he's a White presenting mixed race man, his African appearance comes from his Kenyan father, he's not descended from West African slaves like his wife and her family.

Hi there IS MISE...

With respect you're not quite correct about the former PM HOWARD being a coward, because he was wearing protective body armour ? He wore an ill fitting, Series II 'Morgan Magnum' (soft insert), Body Armour, too large for his physical frame. This was at the absolute insistence of the OIC of his 'close protection' detail, because of the heightened 'Threat Assessment' that had been earlier determined by ASIO. In reality, PM HOWARD declined to adopt any additional security measures, until the sergeant I/C of his VIPP Detail, had received the updated TA.

there is no doubt the more secular humanist has influenced and infiltrated America the more corrupt it becomes. I doubt very much 9/11 would of happened if not for the denialist who are more interested in promoting a perverted sexual agenda than they are the security of a nation. Look at the fools in this nation supporting Assange, Hicks and Snowdon. How sickening.

For those of you who are interested about this mythical 'choke hold' one of the contributors has alluded to herein...

What he's referring to is a process that forms an integral part of the whole suite of PPCT defensive measures for police. Titled, the 'lateral vascular neck restraint', developed c.1983-85, and refined by the then Chief DTI for the Greater St Louis, MO., Police Dept., Bruce SIDDLE. Its efficacy was closely examined and the effects tested on several 'cadavers' (apparently ?) by that Departments, forensic Medical Officer a Doctor COOPER, over a couple of years. This Doctor's name has momentarily escaped me ? I believe it is, as stated a Dr COOPER, anyway that's what happens when you claim to be a real 'know it all '! LOL.

The principle being, there's 'bi-manual mechanical constriction', occasioned upon the two carotid arteries cutting off about 70% of the blood to the brain. This is obtained by the application of both the arm and the forearm, and applying simultaneous pressure to both carotids. Thus rendering the subject unconscious and insentient. Therefore changing his behaviour from being 'resistive' to 'compliant' ! That's the theory, I believe ?

Personally I'd be very worried, if a person had a substantial build-up of plaque within the walls of those two carotid arteries, might the person suffer a life threatening event ? According to the US Doctor's, no ! Provided the restraint is applied properly by those who've been trained correctly. This is the only 'APPROVED' restraint method, permitted to be applied, to any part of the cervical region, used by all law enforcement personnel in the United States.

It should be mentioned (as the original contributor had correctly stated), there are now a significant number of law enforcement agencies in the US, who have banned such procedures, because of the rising number of safety issues, and injuries ? Pressure Point Control Techniques (PPCT), are also prohibited from use, by all police forces in Oz ?

If any reader who wishes to discuss or rebut anything I've said, on this specific issue, please respond ?

It's also worth noting that in the U.S things like police brutality, official corruption, waste and inefficiency get worse under Black Democratic party mayors and police chiefs.
Detroit under Kwame Kilpatrick, New Orleans under Ray Nagan, the current mayor and police chief of the Cleveland district in which Tamir Rice was killed are both Black and the police force is crippled by low morale and corruption which is manifesting in brutality toward citizens.
I can't remember who coined the term "Black Run America" but it's used a lot on my side to describe how the White dominated U.S government is now administered in such a way as to make every policy and program accommodate the lower IQ and high time preferences of the Blacks, ie everything is dumbed down so they can understand it or participate and based on hand outs and appeasement of their fragile egos.
This has resulted not only in White flight but an exodus of the minority of intelligent, capable Black people from areas like Detroit, Baltimore, St Louis, Newark and so forth, the Black people who used to run businesses, employ their neighbours and support service clubs and community groups.
Many black neighbourhoods are now economic dead zones where the shopkeepers and professionals have been driven out by crime and violence from the locals and where there's no economic activity beyond pawnbroking and drug dealing.
Watch what will happen to Ferguson now because the government tried to appease people who are too dumb to even understand the false liberal narrative of racial oppression, here's what happens when a stupid White liberal tries to teach some black kids how to protest peacefully in Berkley:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziTj46x3pYQ
He got off lightly, only lost two teeth, this silly old hippie got whacked in the head with a hammer, the picture says it all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jGmGiARnBo
http://i2.wp.com/www.dailystormer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Berkeley-California-Hippie-Smashed-By-Nigs.jpg?resize=480%2C320
His shirt reads "Cops:Stop Killing Black Men!", then amid chants of "peaceful protest" he's smacked in the gob with what looks like a ball peen hammer, the irony is delicious.

Dear o sung wu,

How many different holds are usually in a policeman's repertoire? If there are too many it would be difficult to train the officer in the uses and effects of all of them. There are so many variables.

You have to wonder about the disingenuous bleeding hearts who blather on about black deaths in custody in Oz, & black criminals killed by white police in the US.

They must know that the Oz experience is that there is a higher percentage of white deaths in custody than black, but prefer to pretend it is a black phenomena.

The same thing occurs in the US. In many districts high black population cause most criminal activity to be black, but in others, like OZ, it is mostly white killed fighting police.

In both countries it is only those wanting to use the racist claim who talk about these deaths as if blacks are overrepresented. They know this is not the case, but it is a good excuse for a riot, or to claim more money be wasted on no the useless.

Hasbeen,
The "bleeding hearts" know the truth as well as anyone, they know that in the U.S 94% of Black homicides are committed by other Blacks but only 86% of White homicides are committed by other Whites, therefore Blacks kill Whites at twice the rate as vice versa.
http://i0.wp.com/therightstuff.biz/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/intraracial-homicide.jpg
A left wing site like The Huffington Post will print that data but still try to spin their narrative around it:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/derek-penwell/why-you-may-be-a-racist-e_b_6280776.html
See Hasbeen it's racist to notice these things, it's also racist to not notice or to notice but not speak up about it...or to be ignorant altogether, or to stick your beak into Black affairs, or to not stick your beak in.
It's our fault that Aboriginals get on the grog, beat each other up and end up in jail, but we're racists if we point out that perhaps getting on the grog might be the root cause of such misfortune and not racism.
The "bleeding hearts" are White supremacists at heart who accord non Whites a social status somewhere between children and pet animals, objects who lacking any agency of their own are merely acted upon by those around them.
Watch the videos I linked above, Blacks are by nature egotistical and they seem to have a sixth sense when it comes to condescending behaviour from Whites, hence their taking a hammer to the face of a dotty old hippie who dared to point out that looting for the sake of material gain was "not cool maaan!"
Now you'd expect that the silly old bugger and those like him would realise that Blacks are not objects, that they have agency and will smack you around if you try to interrupt their escapades, but they will always try to find a way to spin getting one's own teeth knocked out into their narrative of racial "oppression':
http://www.libertynews.com/2014/11/white-student-mugged-but-says-his-white-privilege-forced-mugger-to-attack/
Heck even a night of brutal rapes and violent beatings at the hands of a Black man can be spun if they try hard enough:
http://pjmedia.com/blog/whos-to-blame-when-a-black-man-rapes-a-black-woman/?singlepage=true

Hi (again) DAVID F...

That's a good question David ? Surprisingly, not many.

(i) The basic 'come alongs' which involve basic wrist manipulations using, pain compliance;

(ii) Disengaging demonstrators who've 'linked their arms together' to avoid arrests, usually engaged in passive demos. With a lot of noise !

(iii) Several 'releases' designed to remove an offender who's trying to strangle you from behind, grabbing your uniform from the front, trying to hold your arms while you're in the process of trying to arrest them.

I must confess, the hardest people of all to effectively control, are women ! Generally speaking when a woman is resisting arrest, they tend to pull out all stops, to prevent you from taking them into custody. Kicking, scratching, biting, punching, spitting, etc. ? Many a large, tough copper, has received injuries from women, including myself. Being bitten quite deeply, on my left shoulder through my shirt, whilst I was trying to arrest her boyfriend/husband. Then off to hospital for tetanus shots, and several stitches ! With 'claret' spreading all over my shirt from the bite site ! Believe me David, it sure hurt ! Women are incredibly violent when they wish to be, despite the illusion of how sweet and nice they can be ?

Further, you have to be very mindful indeed, on how and where you grab a woman while attempting to arrest her. They generally will level all sorts of allegations against you for the manner in which you've touched them ? Including sexual misconduct ! It's good to have plenty of independent witnesses about whenever you have to lay hands on a female ? You can bet your life you'll need them, (witnesses) if the woman's a crook !

Bottom line David, police don't spend nearly enough time training, to learn properly and prepare with the few unarmed techniques they're taught in the Academy. Whereas firearms training is considered paramount for police. Therefore there're many many, hours of practice, which are wholly dedicated for training, for this very important life and death, skill-set ! Hope this helps a bit ?

it is very refreshing to hear it how it is O sung wu. The noise that the Greens make gives the impression that most people believe their constant victim status and lies.

See that's the thing about Police, they're not actually supposed to hurt people in the execution of their duty even when under attack, in civilian self defense classes you learn how to snap someone's wrist, dislocate their shoulder or throw them and break their arm with a knee.
In the classes I took years ago we were taught that the first and best option was always to run away, if that wasn't possible and you end up in a clinch then you break limbs, smash the windpipe or testicles, smash the nose and gouge the eyes,your aim is to incapacitate your assailant as quickly as possible to the extent that he can't get up and chase you again, Police don't have those options.

Bill Whittle-The New Barbarism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez60_d-WF2A#t=439
Lawlessness at the top of U.S society, lawlessness at the bottom, are we surprised that U.S agents torture enemy combatants?

Dear o sung wu,

Thank you for that. I have only known one policeman on a personal level. That was a sergeant in the army who was one of the most decent people I have ever known. He was a New York City cop in civilian life.

I have the impression that policemen may go through long periods without having to use weapons or physical force. Is that correct? Are there refresher courses or is the time spent in the police academy all the formal training a policeman gets unless he or she does it on his own?

It is disappointing to hear that there is not enough time spent learning unarmed techniques.

Unarmed techniques may include not only methods of physical compulsion but also psychological tactics. Is there any time spent on that sort of thing?

You mentioned the difficulties with women. Can a female policeman deal with a woman easier than a man could?

Hi there JAY of MELBOURNE...

Sometimes you speak a whole lot of common sense, and brilliantly articulate how things really are !

Hi there RUNNER...

The poor ol' copper is between a rock and a hard place ? He simply can't win due to the nature of his 'Office'. JAY of MELBOURNE correctly opined, when confronted by an immediate physical assault, the best response or self-defence, 'is to run away'. He further added, (quite correctly!) police don't have that option. That is entirely accurate.

Often, there can be allegations of excessive force, police brutality etc., even indecent assault when arresting females ! It's been shown, in some instances the alleged assault claimed by the 'poor victim', never happened ? Or the alleged police perpetrator wasn't even present at the demo ?

Many of these 'professional demonstrators', adopt almost paramilitary styles of entrapment, strategies and tactics, in order to attract a massive media frenzy to aid their particular 'cause'. Employing tactics of provocation, filming every single action a copper may involve himself in, ensuring only the most glaring, and embarrassing incidences are highlighted, accentuated and re-shown, later in Court.

Attractive young women are quite adroit at ensuring compelling evidence is gained, of some unwitting, hopelessly outnumbered copper, who's inadvertently and accidentally brushed her breast, or engaged in some other 'touching' of her person.

Moreover, their 'slick' protocols ensure these 'innocent' strategies are well focused upon and witnessed by their cohorts. As well as being appropriately distorted, in order to substantiate the degree of police culpability. Usually alleging excessive force together with indecent assault. All these underhand 'tactics' are well accentuated, as I've said, both for maximum benefit of film and media !

david f

Is it your idealism or have you led a very sheltered life?

Why not state outright what you are obviously thinking?

First though you really should have a think about how you would like to be opening the gate to step past the untrained pitbull/bullArab cross to reason with and maybe kidsglove grapple with the violent drugged up, boozed feral who spends his days alternately working out, getting smashed and commiting all manner of anti-social acts, but mainly burglary of the homes of unprotected, vulnerable people, often elderly alone.

How come all workers MUST have full coverage by workplace health and safety and there is hell to pay for any lapse, no matter how small. However, when it comes to the worthy citizens who give their lives to vocational service for the community, such as police, ambulance workers, doctors and nurses in Emergency, the lunar Greens imagine it is quite OK for ferals to beat the living daylights out of them with impunity - no defence, no withdrawal of service (unthinkable!) and without any comeback for compensation from the offender/s?

Honestly david f, your probing to arrive at your snide remark about poor training of police was as subtle as a meat axe, as is your sorry Greens' attitude to authority and unreasoning support of thugs like the violent drug-dealing outlaw motorcycle gangs.

Nearly as silly as your 'impression' that police go long periods without the treat of violence against them. What about YOU go about with a bare head and light cotton as your only defence against a scrote who always has the drop on you and whose only penalty is to re-join his girlfriend in gaol, where his brutality is properly recognised by his gang status?

Remove the eye patch and mentally walk a kilometre in the shoes of a cop - someone's son, husband, dad and valued member of his community, whom all hope will return homes ta the conclusion of the shift.

Hi there DAVID F...

You're quite correct, police work (detectives I'll deal with if you don't mind) is relatively unremarkable, even pedestrian if tasked with checking long and complex documentation ? I'm not suggesting it's boring, rather 'steady as you go' ? Accuracy, attention to detail, and quite a bit of intuitiveness, conscious reasoning, and instinctiveness are all very helpful qualities for detectives !

Enquiries are a little more active, seeking witness statements, asking questions, trying to tease out the relevant 'facts in issue' ? All of which are important when attempting to establish a watertight 'Brief of Evidence'. And occasionally, downright explosive !

You're quite correct David, when you say psychological preparedness is another important tool for police (all police). *VITALLY IMPORTANT* knowing 'how to speak to people' ! Come on 'heavy' when you're seeking answers from people, usually the response is either aggressive or worse uncooperative or incommunicative, in other words, you learn zip !

'THIS IS PROBABLY THE "HARDEST" SKILL TO TEACH YOUNG COPPERS' ? They must learn to speak with people in a cooperative, and cordial manner, you don't need to be their mate ! Should the situation change ? Then you can raise 'the temperature' of your discussion, according to that change ! It's easy to 'elevate' your questioning, but darn hard to start 'HOT' and come down cool. Because you loose 'face' and 'respect' in the eyes of the person you're speaking with ! And that's not good.

Your last question is a beauty ! Indeed, where possible it's best to have woman to woman ! Remember, violent women, can be very very VIOLENT indeed!

Dear davidf,

You sir are a saint and a gem. I'm not sure how you do it but I respect enormously your capacity for moderate responses to aggressive posturing and pontificating from the usual suspects. It is a capacity I seem to have lost if indeed I can really claim to have had it in the first place.

This place has changed markedly since the early days but you have been a welcome constant and I thank you for it.

Ten pages of discussion and SteeleRedux arrives like a moth to a candle and knowing just as much.

SteeleRedux,

Posters usually show other contributors the respect of reading earlier posts and trying to be relevant. You must have been a trial back in your OLO 'salad days' as well if you did as you do now, which is to swan in, dump on posters and cheer on.

BTT

Dear onthebeach,

I usually avoid engaging with you for patently obvious reasons but on this occasion I feel duty bound.

Are you really attempting to call the last 10 pages 'discussion'?

Some of it perhaps, o sung wu was at least responding to davidf's effort to engage in a conversation but let's examine your effort. You have accused davidf of the following;

of "flakey Green leftism",

of "anti-US sentiment",

of "telling porkies",

of speaking "nonsense",

of making a "snide remark",

of having a 'sorry attitude to authority',

of having "unreasoning support of thugs",

of being 'blinkered'.

Surely the epitome of "dumping on posters".

Yet in all that time davidf has responded magnanimously and with grace which I felt moved to recognise and applaud.

You sir wouldn't know either if you fell over them and the difference is stark.

That was the reason for my post.

And DAVID F, I accept I'm well off Topic here however, if one were attempting to quantify a risk assessment of police serving today, in any of Australia's major cities - I'd have to say unquestionably it's the normal GD Uniform police, performing rostered duty in his allotted Patrol District. Theirs is unquestionable, the most hazardous and dangerous part of policing.

Mainly because of the much wider use of alcohol consumption and drug taking, has partly caused this situation ? There are several other, far more complex reasons, why uniform duties attract a much higher risk quality, than in my time ? The days when the 'majesty of the uniform' alone, might cause the average 'boofhead' to think twice before attacking a copper, are long gone ?

I do apologise to PAUL1405 for 'straying' far from the Topic at hand. However 'true', to both my character, and the perception that some of those herein, have of me personally, being a 'brute' or similar - I absolutely fully support, any measure (including torture) the CIA or any other Agency may use, if it will lead to the discovery of conspirators, or offenders of a 9/11 type event ! For that I make absolutely NO apology !

Dear SteeleRedux,

I fully agree with your comments regarding Prof David Fisher.
(Oxford Professor - who never blows his own horn - so I will).
For as long as I have been on this Forum - Prof. Fisher
has remained a constant light - he has stood as a beacon in
some otherwise bleak moments on this forum.
Thank You for acknowleging
this wonderful man. The moment that I see his posts - I know
that reason and intelligent argument will prevail.

cont'd ...

BTW:

Prof. David Fisher is an American.
I thought those accusing him of being
"anti-American" should be aware of that
fact. He knows of what he speaks.

Dear Foxy,

I have lived in Oxford, CT, but I have never been an Oxford Professor. I have been a professor, but that was 30 years ago.

Dear David F.,

To me you'll always be a teacher - and
my "adopted" granpa.

@ SteeleRedux, Sunday, 14 December 2014 5:10:28 PM

There you go again, proving the very point I made. Here is the OP, so have a go at it,

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6664&page=1

BTT

Of course, back to topic now that the bogus progressive narrative on this topic has been put to bed.
The U.S government under Bush the younger and now "The One" have shown themselves to be weak and lily livered when it comes to dealing with terrorists, there was a time when such people were executed and their corpses hung in public gibbets to remind other people of what the state would do to murderers.
Yes, as Whites living the Liberal lie we're supposed to be better than that but we needn't be, our enemies aren't impressed by tolerance and mercy, it only makes them stronger.

Good evening to you ONTHEBEACH...

Speaking in part of the growing influence of those from 'the left', the academic critics, the various Socialist 'Peaceniks' groups, and the many other minority groups who seek amicable and non-violent solutions to many of the world's more intractably violent problems ! Often by 'turning the other cheek' and seeking further protracted negotiations ?

It reminded me of a quote, often attributed to Winston CHURCHILL, or some claim, the inimitable Geo. ORWELL, I really don't know who ?

Anyway it goes along the following lines thus '...We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm...' ?

It really does remind me of those brave souls who have the courage, fortitude, and the insight to occasion violence upon those who seek to do extreme violence upon us and our community. Without these brave men and women, where would we be ? Think about it, those who would dare to denounce and criticise these honourable men and women !

Just a few thoughts to broaden the discussion:

Christopher Marlowe wrote:

"...Accursed be he that first invented war,
They knew not, ah, they knew not simple men,
How they were hit by pelting cannon shot,
Stand staggering like a quivering aspen leaf."
(Tamburlaine the Great. Act 2, Sc.iv.)

And John Dryden said it equally well in,
Alexander's Feast:

"War, he sung, is toil and trouble;
Honour but an empty bubble.
Never ending, still begining,
Fighting still, and still destroying,
If all the world be worth the winning,
Think, oh think, it worth enjoying."

The Canberra Times back in 1986 told us that -

"...The average person can expect to give up three
to four years of his or her life working to foot
the arms bill, while ever more people suffer from
illiteracy, ill health and chronic hunger..."

We need new ways of thinking to cope
with the nuclear age. It is here that writers, with
their concern for the human condition and their
special skills with language, can enable us to imagine
the horrific reality of nuclear arms and nerve us to
build an alternative future.

About two years ago I was talking to a German teacher who had written a book about a German WW2 parachute regiment. He interviewed many of those who survived the war. The conversation at one stage turned to the Gestapo and their activities. What he told me was the ordinary German soldier regarded members of the 'Feared Gestapo' with disdain seeing them as cowards who only confronted those who were captive and disarmed, never venturing too far toward the real fighting.

In our modern conflicts the CIA is rightly condemned of using torture in black sites and killing via drones rather than gathering on the ground intelligence.

The sadistic prison guards, both from the Axis and the Allies, generally were given their that particular line of work because they were often deemed unsuitable for the front.

Any sense of torturers as brave is completely delusional and patently false. It definitely takes a certain type of person to inflict extreme pain and suffering against a helpless human being and a degree of cowardliness and sadism is often part of the mix. Abu Ghrahib is a case in point.

Dear o sung wu,

While there are certainly those on this thread who have lauded and applauded these cowards and their evil work I'm a little unclear if you are one of them.

From my understanding Churchill was expressly against violent methods of extracting information, a point raised by Obama when addressing the Bush era practices.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2009/05/ruthless_yet_humane.html

When you say;

“Without these brave men and women, where would we be ? Think about it, those who would dare to denounce and criticise these honourable men and women !”

Are you talking about the torturers?

Let me spell this out for you.

The man deemed most responsible for the so called 'enhanced interrogation techniques' (read torture) policy of the Bush era was Dick Cheney. This will tell you a little about the man;

“When Cheney became eligible for the draft, during the Vietnam War, he applied for and received five draft deferments. … when asked about his deferments, Cheney reportedly said, "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service".”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney

The man who has most eloquently spoken out against the torture conducted by the US is former presidential candidate Senator McCain. This will tell you something of this man;

“John McCain's capture and subsequent imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi. McCain fractured both arms and a leg ejecting from the aircraft, and nearly drowned when he parachuted into Trúc Bạch Lake. Some North Vietnamese pulled him ashore, then others crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt and bayoneted him. McCain was then transported to Hanoi's main Hỏa Lò Prison, nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton".”

“Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to treat his injuries, beating and interrogating him to get information; he was given medical care only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral.”

Cont...

Cont...
“McCain spent six weeks in the hospital while receiving marginal care. By then having lost 50 pounds (23 kg), in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white, McCain was sent to a different camp on the outskirts of Hanoi in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week. In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years.”

“In mid-1968, John S. McCain, Jr. was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and the North Vietnamese offered McCain early release because they wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes, and also to show other POWs that elite prisoners were willing to be treated preferentially. McCain turned down the offer; he would only accept repatriation if every man taken in before him was released as well.”

“In August 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain. He was subjected to rope bindings and repeated beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery. Further injuries led to the beginning of a suicide attempt, stopped by guards.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain#Prisoner_of_war

McCain has been steadfast in his condemnation of the US using torture saying it “stained our national honor” and that "the use of torture compromises that which most distinguishes us from our enemies, our belief that all people, even captured enemies, possess basic human rights."

So mate is it obvious that Jay of Melbourne, Hasbeen, and onthebeach cowardly support the actions of a coward.

I support the actions and stance of a brave and honourable man.

Where are you going to raise your colours?

o sung wu, I do not retreat from what I have posted, I say if it walks like a duck, quacks like duck, then it is probably a duck. Based on the posted ravings of some on this forum they are fascists, no two ways about it, can't sugar coat the fact.
If it is uncomfortable to liken them to other historical fascists, bad luck. Given the reigns of power I believe these "moderates" as they like others to think of them, would do very much what those historical fascists bastards did. Unfortunately these radicals often gain support from the moderate conservatives and the "christian" element in society.

o sung wu said; "Sometimes you (JofM) speak a whole lot of common sense, and brilliantly articulate how things really are!"

Yes he does a brilliant job of presenting nonsense as fact. Take this "The "bleeding hearts" know the truth as well as anyone, they know that in the U.S 94% of Black homicides are committed by other Blacks but only 86% of White homicides are committed by other Whites, therefore Blacks kill Whites at twice the rate as vice versa." If it is true, what does it prove? Its designed to present B people as murderous types compared to W people. And this;

"It's also worth noting that in the U.S things like police brutality, official corruption, waste and inefficiency get worse under Black Democratic party mayors and police chiefs."
Presented as a fact, without evidence, could it also be nonsense.
And some are impressed!

Does that include the links to "Third Position" and "Truth Revolt" which are nothing more than thinly veiled extreme right wing web ravings.

SteeleRedux, thanks for exposing the other member of the dynamic duo for what he is, and his attacks on David f.

Paul 1405,
What other conclusion can we draw from crime statistics in the U.S?
Race is the major factor in crime in the U.S.A, the left always try to say that America is a violent, barbaric society and that explains things like CIA torture but if you break down crime by race you see that the problem of violent crime is a Black problem, not a society wide issue.
http://americanfreepress.net/?p=14864
As for the sites I link to do you see any "Racist" material on Truth Revolt? No you don't because they're right wing anti racists, the site is published by David Horowitz a Jewish neocon, I don't agree with his politics but it doesn't mean Bill Whittle is wrong.
Do you want to know where I get most of my information on Black America?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1aJhHZHQGU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrAUsy2wEao
What would be the point of quoting "fascist" sites on anything relating to race even if such sites existed?
How can anyone be a "Fascist" or a "Nazi" in 2014, no more Hitler means no more Nazism and there's no such thing as a "Neo Nazi", an authoritarian, socialist viewpoint like my own is found in various forms on both sides of the left-right economic divide.

Jay. if all other factors, such as socioeconomic factors were equal then perhaps you could draw some conclusions on race/crime. Are you inferring simply due to the color of their skin people have inherent criminal tendencies. Can we conclude that Barack Obama is more likely to commit a criminal offence than say Richard Nixon?
You say "How can anyone be a "Fascist" or a "Nazi" in 2014, no more Hitler means no more Nazism" that is as reasonable as saying no more Trotsky, no more Trotskyism, no more Stalin no more Stalinism.

Jay who are these people?

http://www.americannaziparty.com/

Their home page appears to contain material you would be likely to rely upon to support your argument.

What is 'The Australian National Socialist Party'?

Paul 1405.
When you control for things like socio economic factors in U.S crime statistics the picture looks even worse for negrophiles, poor Whites commit far less violent crime than poor Blacks. If you don't trust the statistics from the U.S DOJ, FBI and CDC then who do you trust? Where do you get an alternative set of statistics disproving endemic black criminality?.
Anything with the term Nazi in the title is a set up or a provocation, if you want to go into the relationships between these groups, the FBI and ASIO we can but we've been down that road before.
I don't know which group you mean when you talk about Australian National Socialists there was the Palmer-Coleman gang who lately used the moniker "Klub Nation" and they are longtime police and ASIO informers, David Palmer was probably an ASIO agent from the start.
They were part of the Howard-Abbott campaign against One Nation in which Palmer styled himself as a Grand Wizard of the KKK and claimed to have infiltrated the Hanson camp.

Jay, << poor Whites commit far less violent crime than poor Blacks>> that could be true, but before I agree I'll check your stats on that. PLEASE POST THEM.

What about that US mob, 'The American Nazi Party' do they exists? If they do and I assume someone posted that material on the web, so if they are not Nazi's, what are they?

Paul,
Here's a site sympathetic to Black causes:
http://blackdemographics.com/culture/crime/
Black crime impoverishes the neighbourhoods where they congregate, drives away investment and eliminates altruistic social activity. Ferguson Missouri for example was majority White until the mid 1990's or you can look further afield to places like Newark New Jersey, Gary Indiana, Birmingham Alabama.
I'm a crime buff first and foremost, that's how I became interested in race in the first place and there's a case I'm following in the news at the moment,which is incredibly interesting:
http://www.inquisitr.com/1678735/hacktivist-group-anonymous-takes-on-jessica-chambers-burning-case-see-the-startling-new-evidence-found/
It's quite remarkable to observe this creeping decay of corruption, drug dealing and murder play out in real time, if even half of this story is true it paints a very different picture of these Black ghetto crews than the pictures of cherubic twelve year olds offered by the leftist media.

Paul,
I've posted them several times in this thread alone, go to the U.S DOJ site and look for yourself or search for Peter Brimelow's "The colour of crime".
As for the American Nazi party there's really nothing to them but from what I understand they're considered a joke even among White Nationalists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTKP-LAVBOU&list=UUIibK0GTXCaQCAamJAepm1g
Nazitards or LARPers is what we call them, LARP being the acronym for live action role playing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIeKzCV7woE
Retarded? Yes to normal people "neo Nazism" is laughable but it's harmless escapism for eccentrics, nerds and losers.

SteeleRedux, "So mate is it obvious that Jay of Melbourne, Hasbeen, and onthebeach cowardly support the actions of a coward"

OK, so now you provide the specific quotes where I have done that, or kindly withdraw your comment.

What I have done is dispute the claim that torture never works.

You and some others habitually split the population into those who obviously support you and all others, who you typecast as foul, unthinking brutes. That is irrational.

Hi there PAUL1405, and others herein who believe me to be nothing but hot air and bluff ! At the risk of coming perilously close to identifying myself on this Site, I will share some interesting observations with you ?

In 1986 I spent quite some time with a number of US police Departments. One specifically, was Elizabeth NJ, often referred to as the 'armpit' of the East Coast, situated about 7 miles as the crow flies from Manhattan. Firstly I was invited, to speak to the entire night shift (55 members + or -) at their muster. Thereafter, the C of P invited me to undertake a number of 'ride alongs', mainly with the permanent shift Sgt, John VASQUEZ (an Hispanic). The only shift(s) I was authorised to take part, was the 2300-0730 (nights) of 8 1/2 hours duration.

Those who recall that iconic TV series 'Hill Street Blues', that's EXACTLY how it was. The patrol area was about a 6 block radius comprising, mainly of tenements and limited small industry. Also there was a small park, so well lit it resembled a birthday cake ! I've been a pro pug, 4 & 6 round preliminaries, nevertheless a journeyman pug. And I don't easily scare in a 'stink' ?

During my initial 'ride-along', we had our first homicide. Our entire patrol area, was small and compact (it could be more easily walked). With a population essentially black and more blacks ! Most 'hanging out' staring at our 'black and white as we slowly drifted past (10 - 15 mph max.). Their eyes never leaving us, with stares of menace, enmity and malevolence - I enquired of John, we OK ? He replied nonchalantly, sure no problem !

I WAS SCARED !

I've exhausted my 350 words, therefore I'll make two observations. In 1986, racism was rampant and reciprocal on both sides. White cops hated black 'everything' ! And vice versa, an intractable situation ! The region was a very poor, and sociologically deprived ? Could it ever recover ? Possibly I don't know, but I can only hope ?

Two things STEELEREDUX, you don't need to 'spell' anything out for me ? And as to where I 'raise my colours' on any issue, be assured it will always be diametrically opposed to yours, even if I'm conspicuously opposed to it ! That my friend is irrebuttable.

Your observations as to JAY of MELBOURNE, ONTHEBEACH and HASBEEN all being cowards...? Well please honour me, by including myself amongst that eminent group. I too would unquestionably 'torture' anyone who threatened me, or mine, or my country ! And I mean 'torture' in the full sense of the word !

You drew a distinction about John McCAIN being imprisoned in a Hanoi gaol. You forgot to add that small aside, while Mr McCAIN was imprisoned, his fellow countrywoman, a Ms Jane FONDA was partying along delightedly with his North Vietnamese captors, and all the while Mr McCain was enduring his own awful suffering ? And you have the temerity to throw around allegations of cowardice, because three individuals dared to disagree with you ? Why ?

A question if I may...? Would the occasion or circumstance ever prevail, that you'd see it necessary to engage in the use of lethal or non-lethal force ?

A close member of your family has been abducted, whereabouts unknown ? The abductor's in your custody. Your family member needs regular meds. which by now, is urgent, and necessary to preserve their life. He fails to reveal that persons location. Your only hope being if he rescinds his silence, and tells you. Would you torture him, to save the life of your family member ? Or preserve your own morality and principles, and allow your family member to perish ?

O sung,
that's an interesting story but my talking point here is that the U.S, despite the presence in their society of extremely violent elements is not a violent nation.
When you look at the way crime breaks down along racial lines it's perfectly obvious that even dirt poor, rural areas with majority White populations such as in Appalachia, and the deep South have crime rates comparable to any other majority European society in the world.
Saying that the U.S has a problem with violence and that their political power is projected through violence is nonsense, according to the left's narrative the most violent and criminally inclined element in the country, the Blacks are the least powerful, and are even an "oppressed group" in that country. So how does the first part of this paragraph reconcile with the second?
What's also obvious is that Blacks are capable of intimidating Whites and driving them out of certain towns and suburbs whereas Whites are defenceless against their aggression and incapable of re taking those areas even when they've been laid waste and largely abandoned by the Blacks.
So the most "powerful" group is the least violent and the most "powerless" is the most violent? There's no realtionship between violence and power in the U.S.A or any other European dominated society for that matter so the Left narrative is disproven.
Read up on the information that's coming to light on the Jessica Chambers murder, on circumstantial evidence it appears as though the Black drug dealers have corrupted and intimidated the majority White Police force and possibly even other county officials and are running a multi state, organised crime racket manufacturing amphetamines in the south and running them up to the midwest. Does that sound like an "oppressed" group to you? How common is this situation in poor, rural communities in the U.S, Black gangs literally taking over small towns?
When a White gang, numbering three individuals tried to take over a small majority White town the media completely lost their minds and the whole human rights apparatus came crashing down upon them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Cobb#Leith.2C_North_Dakota

Dear o sung wu,

You wrote;

“And as to where I 'raise my colours' on any issue, be assured it will always be diametrically opposed to yours, even if I'm conspicuously opposed to it ! That my friend is irrebuttable.”

I know and that is why you are so much fun my friend. Lol. I think 'irrational hatred' was raised earlier.

Well you have chosen your road now go and raise those colours next to Dick Cheney, the man who found every excuse under the sun not to go and serve his country while the rest of us support the stance of a war hero, one who could have so easily ended his suffering by taking the offer of repatriation offered to him by his captors but chose instead to stay and face many more years of torture and solitary confinement.

This is what the man who you are now standing shoulder to shoulder with has responded;

“The former vice president showed little remorse for the dozens of prisoners who were found to have been wrongfully detained, for the man who died in the program.“

“"I have no problem as long as we achieve our objective." “
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/14/dick-cheney-torture_n_6322872.html

A cowards coward.

And why on earth are you rambling about Fonda?

And please save me the bulldust scenarios about my family being held hostage. It is a furphy designed to legitimise the actions of cowards. This was not the case here with the thousands of captives the US performed rendition and torture on, with a only a very small percentage being relevant to the information they were after. There is pretty good evidence that the hostages held then beheaded by ISIS have been subjected to extensive waterboarding. Under your rational (I'm being very kind using that term) they are perfectly justified in their actions as some of the victims may well be working for the CIA. I find them reprehensible but you can not pass that judgement because instead you empathise with them.

A little sad really.

Jay, I do not believe raw statistics paints a true picture of the global situation, or the situation in a particular country, be it Australia or the United States. There is nothing to prove the superiority of whites over non whites, other that economic and military superiority. The economic world war launched by Europeans even before the advent of the industrial revolution has clearly been won by Europeans and their decedents. Military superiority allowed Europeans to generally subjugate Non-Europeans, and consequently exert economic power over those mostly defeated peoples, putting the defeated non whites at a distinct disadvantage. In the case of the United States and African Americans, their ancestors were slaves, and after the civil war blacks in slave states did not regain the average living they had"enjoyed" as slaves until the 1930's, about 70 years after the war ended.
To take a white supremacists attitude is easy if you are white, and consequently on the winning side, even if you personally have not benefited all that greatly from your race winning the economic war. I would thing the poorest of American whites would still be better off than the poorest blacks.
Can you also explain the 'Hispanic' factor, certainly part European in ancestry but doing no better than blacks. that goes against the theory of white superiority, they should be well ahead of blacks not behind them.

Steele,
...and now you understand the shortcomings of your worldview and the fundamentals not only of mine but that of ISIS.

Paul 1405,
The concept of White supremacy is something you've inserted into the conversation, I didn't say anything of the sort but again, it's obvious that majority White communities in the U.S are safer for everyone including Blacks than majority Black communities.
C'mon, now that you know where to look for information on the causes of Black poverty and social dysfunction you can start listening to Black commentators like I do, instead of stupid White and Jewish liberals..hint, it's got nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with liberal values imposed on them over the last sixty years.
Simple comparison to describe who Mexicans are:
This is what a Latina looks like:
http://mundo52.com/files/imagecache/nota_completa/paulina_rubio_0.jpg
This is what a Mestizo woman looks like:
http://z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p103331/10_Matis_Woman_Baby.jpg
Most Mexicans are Mestizos or Indians, Latinos are descended from Spanish settlers.

Indeed, you really are a sad little guy STEELIE ? I recall well, when you appointed yourself, the Grand Mufti of Islamic propaganda and the strategic apologist, for their Sharia barbarism ! Babbling on about what a wonderful addition they are to our precious Australian culture.

Pity though that you continue to be so overwhelmed by this fallacious belief of your own ridiculous 'Omnipotence' and ah, 'fearlessness'(cough!).

You're so utterly inhibited from observing what a negative influence they've been, as they continue to further dislocate the once harmonious neighbourhoods they now inundate and infect ? We'll expand upon this theory of yours, on another occasion, quite soon eh STEELIE ?

I now also see that you feel quite unrestrained in the way and manner in which you recklessly throw about the word 'coward', almost with total abandonment ?

I suppose anyone of us can say just about anything we like within reason, as we're all more or less shrouded in anonymity here on the Forum, that includes myself ? Still, I'd always exercise some caution, lest our courage or lack of courage is one day tested ? Purely by happenstance you understand ? Funny though, how some things work out eh STEELIE ?

Oh before I forget ...You've NEVER served in the Australian Military ? Nor served in any function that's either defended nor 'value added' to our precious way of life either ? In fact, you've never defended anything have you ? Why, I believe I can guess.

Hi PAUL1405...

I've read your thread again, and I reiterate what I said back a couple of months ago - You're not worried about forthcoming with your views, both as a pacifist and from 'the left' of politics. You're honest about everything you say ? Therefore you and I will never agree on most issues ?

I do understand the depth and degree of enmity many have for the tactics and behaviour of members of the CIA. Torture, uplifting some from GITMO, taking them to a country who willingly engage in wholesale torture and giving them over to these brutes ? I get it !

Considering the events of 9/11 for a moment ? Without using these awful, but (seemingly) necessary torture methods, how can they extract the info. they desperately require from these people, particularly in an all out attempt to prevent further 9/11's ?

Accordingly, I would ask you this question, and would prefer you treat it as a legitimate enquiry if you will please ? I'm just trying to understand how an individual with your principles and moral code, would handle such a dilemma ?

For your further enlightenment; myself personally, I would use torture provided all other methods and means had been thoroughly exhausted beforehand. Therefore, I'm a brute a coward, and patently weird !

O Sung,
Steele is already a Dhimmi, he's capitulated even before any pressure was put upon us, this is why we have the ridiculous spectacle of Trotskyites and Anarchists defending the building of Mosques and prayer halls.

There's an interactive torture scene in the now notorious video game Grand Theft Auto 5, it's quite brilliant in it's portrayal of "enhanced interrogation"
http://www.twinfinite.net/2013/09/27/gta-v-and-torture/

"The line that stuck out most to me in this whole mission was as Trevor is pulling into the airport and stating, “Torture’s for the torturer. Or the guy giving the orders to the torturer. You torture for the good times – we should all admit that. It’s useless as a means of getting information!” After struggling to get through the level, the final little jab of the knife to the heart was Trevor and K’s back and forth on the way to the airport. Trevor insisting that K has no home and no family to go back to, perfect encapsulates our reality. Once you are detained, taken, and tortured, you lose any identity you had. If you are one of the bad guys, there’s no way you would be released back into the world. If you’re an innocent person who just happened to have the wrong name or the wrong nationality, you’ll forever have that black mark next to your name."

Dear o sung wu,

When you get out your old song books it is pretty clear you have given up the argument. And just look at the rambling mess you have decided to shovel in my direction. The topic of our conversation was torture yet in your extensive diatribe you neglected to use the word once.

As to the rest of your post I'm afraid you will need to decipher it.

For one it appears you are telling me I shouldn't call Cheney a 'Cowards coward' because he might come and get me? Well the NSA is undoubtedly storing our words in some huge database but I think we might be very small fry in the grand scheme of things don't you.

Anyhow what should I call a man who not only gleefully orders torture with a breath taking arrogance but shows absolutely no remorse for those innocent victims who were unwittingly caught in his horror and who also ran from serving in Vietnam. I have no intention of withdrawing the remark. He is your idol not mine.

As to the matter of whether I have been in the Australian military I think Hasbeen's quote is worth repeating;

“So you were once a cop o sung, bully for you. I suppose you think that gives you some right to insult those who weren't so anointed, or some insight to the thinking of others.” Hasbeen

And for your information no I have not served in the Australian military, the closest was nearly three years in a military academy in another country.

But you ask what I have defended, the answer is simple, I have joined others in defending my country and my society from those who would threaten it from within, from those who would have us torture, to discriminate, to persecute, to shame us, and to denigrate the values of tolerance, humanity and justice that once allowed us to hold our heads up on the world stage. Perhaps you regard that as having little worth, I don't.

Jay, I'll take your link to black demographics seriously, but some of your links are off the planet, Hackvist Anonymous Group'.

<<Yes to normal people "neo Nazism" is laughable but it's harmless escapism for eccentrics, nerds and losers.>> Is it, are they? I believe any person with extremest beliefs is potentially a danger to society. Your Mr Craig Cobb a fine example of such.

Jay, I freely admit militarily and economically whites have proven to be superior to blacks. Am I a 'White Supremacists'? My reference to slavery was simply to point out blacks were coming off a pretty low base to begin with. I could beat Usain Bolt over 100m, providing he gave me 200m start to begin with. Then some wacko could link to a web site that proves white man is a superior runner to black man.
<<it's got nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with liberal values imposed on them over the last sixty years.>> So what are you saying prior to 1954 black people were doing well in America, and coming along nicely? I note you slip in Jewish people there, another lot you are not real keen on?
Jay, can't be any Trotskyites, Trotsky died in 1940, even before Hitler, as you said there are no Nazis because Hitler is dead. So why are you refering to Trotskyites.

<<Hi there PAUL1405, and others herein who believe me to be nothing but hot air and bluff!>> Not so o sung wu, I do not think that, and I have not said that. Like the rest of us on here you are entitled to your opinion. Opinion is just that, opinion, its not fact, none of us has a mortgage on what is right and what is wrong. Obviously my political views sit better with some posters than others, and I tend to be in agreement with them most of the time, you are no different to me. That is not to say, sometimes I would agree with your opinion.

o sung wu,
<<Considering the events of 9/11 for a moment? Without using these awful, but (seemingly) necessary torture methods, how can they extract the info. they desperately require from these people, particularly in an all out attempt to prevent further 9/11's?

Accordingly, I would ask you this question, and would prefer you treat it as a legitimate enquiry if you will please? I'm just trying to understand how an individual with your principles and moral code, would handle such a dilemma?

For your further enlightenment; myself personally, I would use torture provided all other methods and means had been thoroughly exhausted beforehand. Therefore, I'm a brute a coward, and patently weird!

Firstly, I will say; Not under any circumstances will I condone the torture of an animal, and certainly not a fellow human being. it is barbaric, it is inhuman and it is wrong.

Here is some lite reading on torture;
http://www.hrea.org/index.php?base_id=134

The notion that the ends justifies the means, is also wrong. The actions of terrorists with 9/11 was totally and utterly wrong. To add another cliche; "two wrongs does not make a right" it would be wrong to torture suspects, and don't forget they are at this point only suspects, to gain "evidence", dubious evidence at best. Not all suspects are guilty, even you should know that, or are they. The noble motive, prevention of further atrocities, simply cannot be proven.
The inherent danger of giving unfettered power of torture to a shadowy secretive group like the CIA, what makes them different to the Gestapo or KGB, nothing. Interesting use of the word "thoroughly", what is thoroughly a very loose term. How do you describe torture, tickle the feet with a feather, or burning their eyes out with a hot poker and cutting out tongues, maybe a return to medieval torture, the rack, or do you prefer something more modern, electric shock. All very interesting, but a very dangerous path to follow indeed.

Paul,

For once I'm in complete agreement with you, torture is never morally justified under any circumstances.

David,

You said ".... Howard did a good thing for Australia when he limited gun ownership...."

Then how did the murderer in the Lintz café get a gun; especially in a country where to possess anything for the purpose of self defence is a crime?

Hi PAUL1405...

Yup, I've got it, you'd never see an instance or circumstance which would, in any way, legitimise the use of torture. I guess I'm not surprised, given your moral or ethical posture on violence per se. Presenting you with any premise, or hypothesis would be unproductive, and would probably go nowhere ?

A final question please ? Can you see any circumstance whatsoever, where violence is morally justified ? I'm not referring to corporal chastisement of children, rather the deployment of lawful force by police, as opposed to the military, in a state of war ?

I'll stay well clear from the events of Martin Place earlier this morning. It would be quite improper to pass any comment, as I know nothing about it, save for media reports.

O Sung,
Well at least we have the killer's writings to remember him by:
http://web.archive.org/web/20140429125748/http://www.sheikhharon.com/letter-to-pm-tony-abbott-1nov13_redacted.pdf
Oh golly O Sung! Do the language and themes used by Sheikh Haron remind you of any of the writing on this forum? I wonder where he got his ideas from because the style is very similar to, say Green Left Weekly or the official website of the fourth international, WSWS.org

Hi JAY of MELBOURNE...

You say at the outset '...STEELE is already a Dhimmi...' ? I'm sorry, I don't know what a 'Dhimmi is ? Is it someone who aids in building a Mosque or prayer hall ? Furthermore JAY, I'm at a complete loss, I've never watched a show named 'Grand Theft Auto' either ? Though I may well be dense, but there're some TV or movie shows I generally don't watch, so I don't recognise their titles nor their genre ? Concerning justification for employing torture by the CIA ? Well I can't possible say exactly what type of torture they may've employed, obviously it's come back to bite 'em well and truly on the foot ! Sometimes, it's not the offence itself, it's the fact that it's been found out !

I note I've no support for my defence of the judicious use of torture in this particular topic, that's cool I can live with that. And I'll admit at first glance I appear a monster, a coward, and any other descriptive word some may wish to use ? Again, that's cool.

However, I would ask all my detractors, what are the alternatives ? When the information the authorities urgently seek, needs to be found.

O Sung,
Nope, none of your views make you a bad person.

STEELIE...Do I detect a little fit of pique coming from you ? Am I to understand your levels of comprehension are a little challenged too ? Why on earth would Mr CHANEY bother about 'a no account' like you STEELIE ? Or are you concerned of the ever present spectre of WAVE ?

Seriously, I'm very glad to see that you're finally recognising the efficacy of much of what HASBEEN has to say ! Should you care to swallow a bit of that immense 'E G O' of yours, you'd learn a vast amount from his pragmatic and fundamental approach, he has to life.

So for what it's worth, I fully endorse your new effort to emulate much of HASBEENS practical philosophy on life issues. Just one small tip if you don't mind ? Listen to him, and learn from him, and I'm sure his wise counsel will awaken you to a much brighter, more challenging mode of thinking, that's so far, managed to elude you.

So three years ago, a military academy in another country eh ? I am impressed, as likewise, they must have been ! What a surprise, I didn't know you spoke Farsi STEELIE ? Why on earth didn't you pursue it ? I understand, perhaps Iran does get pretty hot almost year round I believe. That also explains your predilection for encouraging the total Islamization of Australia ! That's naughty, very naughty of you, STEELIE ? Or is it a case of; 'All talk and no walk' emmm ?

Hi (again) JAY of MELBOURNE...

Best be careful my friend, the company you keep can cause you a measure of intellectual pain, particularly from 'SUPERMAN', aka the man of 'STEELE', a legend in his own lunch hour ! You're right, nobody who contributes to OLO or the Forum, is either totally right or completely wrong ? It's rather, all to be found in the 'fine print', and within the 'interpretation' of the Topic. It's not dissimilar to that of jurisprudence or constitutional law. Where upon first glance, it appears intricately complicated ? Keep the faith JAY !

Calling each other monsters, cowards, liars, etc. serves no purpose at all. Let’s assume that we all have different opinions but are doing our best to do and say what we think is right. We including me tend to read what agrees with us and assume that what we read that reinforces our viewpoint is more likely to be true. It is reasonable to doubt what we read even if it agrees with our thoughts.

Different categories of moral philosophy that all the arguments so far. The arguments against torture can be classed as following the Solzhenitsyn Principle. The most important thing is to preserve our personal morality regardless of the consequences. Tell the truth in all cases even though it may lead to harm. Solzhenitsyn said, ‘Let the lie come into the world even dominate the world, but not through me.’ I have taken the position in this discussion that torture is wrong under any circumstances. Maybe I’m wrong. Actually the Senate Report did not cite any instance where torture resulted in anything positive. However, it might have been possible that torture did result in something positive, and it might be harmful to reveal the exact case.

I believe it was Jay of Melbourne who maintained that torture is to get the subject to say what the torturer wants him or her to say.

O sung wu, who I think is honourable, brave and conscientious, wrote, “When the information the authorities urgently seek, needs to be found.” He obviously trusts the authorities to decide what’s needed. I don’t. I think both Abbott and Shorten are moral idiots. I think that some information that the authorities seek may be none of their business. I think it is good to question authority. In the USA the government wanted the librarians to keep records on what library patrons read. The society of librarians refused. IMHO good for them.

In approving of torture to prevent crime in spite of the inhumanity of torture we are following the dictum that the end justifies the means. That is another kind of morality.

continued

continued

I believe that torture is horrible and should be avoided. If we make it legal then it will be employed casually even where there is no justification for it. If it is kept illegal and those who torture are brought to trial the accused torturers will come before a jury. If the jury feels that the torture was justified they will not convict.

Is Mise wrote: “Then how did the murderer in the Lintz café get a gun; especially in a country where to possess anything for the purpose of self defence is a crime?”

Dear Is Mise,

To the best of my knowledge owning a gun or anything else for self defence is not a crime in Australia. A person can get a license to carry a gun. However, as long as guns are available they can be misused. Neither John Howard nor I want guns banned entirely.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia:

A common misconception is that firearms are illegal in Australia and that no individual may possess them. While it's true that Australia has restrictive firearms laws, rifles and shotguns (including semi-automatic), as well as handguns are all legal within a narrow set of criteria.

As of 2007 about 5.2% of Australian adults (765,000 people)[1] own and use firearms for purposes such as hunting, controlling feral animals, collecting, security work, and target shooting.

continued

I believe that torture is horrible and should be avoided. If we make it legal then it will be employed casually even where there is no justification for it. If it is kept illegal and those who torture are brought to trial the accused torturers will come before a jury. If the jury feels that the torture was justified they will not convict.

Is Mise wrote: “Then how did the murderer in the Lintz café get a gun; especially in a country where to possess anything for the purpose of self defence is a crime?”

Dear Is Mise,

To the best of my knowledge owning a gun or anything else for self defence is not a crime in Australia. A person can get a license to carry a gun. However, as long as guns are available they can be misused. Neither John Howard nor I want guns banned entirely.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia:

"A common misconception is that firearms are illegal in Australia and that no individual may possess them. While it's true that Australia has restrictive firearms laws, rifles and shotguns (including semi-automatic), as well as handguns are all legal within a narrow set of criteria.

As of 2007 about 5.2% of Australian adults (765,000 people) own and use firearms for purposes such as hunting, controlling feral animals, collecting, security work, and target shooting."

If one shows a legitimate need for a gun one can get it.

david f.

"To the best of my knowledge owning a gun or anything else for self defence is not a crime in Australia. A person can get a license to carry a gun. However, as long as guns are available they can be misused. Neither John Howard nor I want guns banned entirely"

Your knowledge is faulty for to possess ANYTHING for the purpose of self defence is a crime in this country, especially a firearm.
Licenced firearm owners are forbidden to keep a firearm and ammunition ready for use for defence.
If such a person is in fear of their life and takes out an AVO against a person that has threatened them then the police will take any firearms from the subject of the AVO and all firearms from the person that was the subject of the threats, so that he cannot use a firearm for protection.

Licences to possess, use and carry a pistol became a thing of the past over twenty years ago.

A grazier's wife, alone on a large and remote property commits a crime if she keeps a shotgun in the kitchen and a couple of shells in her apron pocket, even if it is only in anticipation of a fox going after her chooks.
The lawful course of action is to wait until the fox is sighted, unlock the gun cabinet and take out the required firearm, re-lock the cabinet, unlock the ammunition box, grab some rounds, re-lock the box, run out to stop the fox....faint chance as by this time reynard has made a kill and is high tailing it into the scrub.
The Greens, if they got their way, would make firearms use even harder for her and other people on the land.

David F,
Yes the purpose of torture is to control the subject, not to gain information.
The torture scene in the video game "Grand Theft Auto Five" is satirical but that series of games is known for it's intelligent but biting critique of post-post modern America.
In the aftermath of the brutal, interactive interrogation the torturer is ordered to kill the subject but instead lets him go after explaining that once a person has been tortured his old life is finished.
That aspect is overlooked in most discussions of torture, once a suspect has been taken into custody, detained for a period, tortured and forced to sign a confession he can never go back to his former life. He's effectively in limbo, a pariah because nobody in his former circle of friends and family will ever trust him or see him in the same way again.
Being a complete social outcast is really a fate worse than death for a lot of people and that's got to be one of the purposes of the CIA techniques, to set an example to other would be terrorists of what their lives are going to be like if they're captured and denied a martyr's death.

IS MISE...

Unfortunately, most of what you say is correct, and I say unfortunately, because that is exactly what the prevailing situation would be ! It would seem the judiciary, and our politicians, would prefer that the community at large, were to be completely divested of anything, that may be used as a weapon of self-defence ? The Greens and other like minded groups would prefer that all licenced F/A's were seized from those (licenced) members of the public, and destroyed.

If that were ever to happen, the only people who would possess F/A's, is the Military, the Police, and of course your criminal groups. My only question being, how on earth would your ordinary member of the public, who may reside alone, manage if they were to be violently attacked ? Seek immediate police assistance ? And if the police are inundated with other jobs, what then ?

In this increasing climate of violence, surely there's some 'fail safe' mechanism that could be conceived, that all vested parties can adopt, and live with ? Rather then allowing the poor ol' public being left to flounder, at the mercy of armed and dangerous individuals ?

O sung,
Back in the days when gun ownership was common we also had mental hospitals, it was easier to get a gun but it was also easier to get disturbed people locked up indefinitely for their own and society's protection.

Dear Is Mise,

Most laws have an upside and a downside. If we maintain double jeopardy it may be impossible to prosecute if there is new evidence of guilt. If we don't maintain double jeopardy a person may be harassed by arbitrary decisions of the government to retry. With or without double jeopardy there will be injustice. I believe the injustice will be less with the double jeopardy provision than without.

The case you cited of a woman on a property is an injustice due to the Australian gun laws. However, if one compares the rate of death by firearms with that of the rate in the US which does not have gun control laws similar to that in Australia, the US is far worse. In my opinion Australia is better off than the US in that respect, the upside is greater than the downside in respect to the Australian gun laws, and Howard did a good thing for Australia.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=2193&issue_id=92010 is an article from the police chief's magazine in the US.

from the site: Elected officials must commit to closing gaps in the current regulatory system, including those that enable felons, minors, persons with mental illness, and other prohibited persons to access firearms, and those that allow the trafficking of illegal guns.

The US police chiefs want more gun control.

Hi there JAY of MELBOURNE...

I guess you're right on that score. I wonder why they decided to close down many of the Psychiatric Wards ? I suppose it was all on the account of money, like most things are ? I remember going to the old 'Admission Centre' both at Callen Park, and later, Gladesville.

I remember this one guy really 'stacked it on' as we arrested him, and later when he saw we were taking him to Gladesville, he settled right down, and on arrival he treated it as 'old home week' he was so pleased that he was being 'scheduled' ! A great result all round, I thought !

I felt quite sorry for some of the old 'Chats' we used to take there, but generally on arrival they were so pleased to be 'home', home in their mind at least ? I think it was because the staff really looked after them, where out at the Bay, they were generally 'stood over' most of the time and lost all their 'weed' which to them was real currency, the poor old buggers ? I always believed by taking these old blokes to the Admission Centre, they got treated so very well by all the staff there. Bathed, Bedded, Fed, and best of all, cared for, the old buggers loved it ? Now where can they be taken that's safe ?

In some ways society is 'rock hard' in it's attitude with some of it's senior citizens ? It would appear at first glance, to be a serious 'crime' - firstly to be old, an alcoholic, a petty criminal, and a vagrant, completely 'cash strapped', often violent, and have severe 'body odour' issues ?

Not big noting myself, most of these old chats slept in parks, consequently were regularly 'bashed' by the younger park 'maggots', who slept there as well. I'd make it my business to 'standover' these slugs, as there's no honour beating the 'tripe' outa some poor old vagrant, in his late sixties or seventies ! Those 'dogs' pressed my buttons big time.

Dear davidf,

You wrote;

“Calling each other monsters, cowards, liars, etc. serves no purpose at all. Let’s assume that we all have different opinions but are doing our best to do and say what we think is right.”

I understand the sentiment but for the record I didn't call anyone here a coward just put the proposition that to expect that others should and will torture on your behalf to make you feel a little safer in your bed is a cowardly act. The only person I directly labelled a coward was Cheney and I certainly am rather disinclined to withdraw that assessment.

I accept that my point was stridently made but it was in response to OSW seemingly labeling torturers as heroes. There is nothing heroic about inflicting horrific pain and terror on a restrained and helpless human being.

Again for the record I don't think anyone but the most ardent of supporters of torture would see it as 'right'. The argument is more based around whether or not it might be deemed necessary.

You were right to voice this concern;

“I believe that torture is horrible and should be avoided. If we make it legal then it will be employed casually even where there is no justification for it.”

Look at o sung wu's position;

“I too would unquestionably 'torture' anyone who threatened me, or mine, or my country ! And I mean 'torture' in the full sense of the word !”.

Note this is a far cry from fallacious scenario of a kidnapped loved one (with limited time to survive if not found quickly) and probably is closer to his true intent. There is hardly a despotic dictator in the world who couldn't justify torture or worse under these parameters. In fact Assad and Saddam could march exactly the same argument out to justify gassing civilians. After the horror of WW1 nations agreed not to use chemical weapons in warfare and even during the most dire circumstances that both sides found themselves in at various stages of the conflict, they were not used.

Cont...

Cont...

Nations have also recognised the horrors of torture and likewise came together to agree not to employ it. The US was a signatory to such a protocol. Just as the use of gas was roundly condemned so should the use of torture.

I don't think there is too much room to debate whether torture is right or wrong, Much of the world has rightly decided it is evil and brutish and demeans all those involved. We might as well rehash the case for bringing back slavery. Now that the topic here has once again moved to gun laws I am reminded of the term 'circle jerk' often used on Reddit, a site that is a guilty pleasure of mine, great philosophy section.

Setting aside the sexual connotations this definition is from knowyourmeme.com;

““Circle Jerk” is a pejorative slang term referring to a positive feedback loop which occurs when an idea, belief or meme that is already customary within an online community becomes re-iterated and rewarded in a perpetual cycle, giving rise to redundancy, clichés and karma whoring. This phenomenon is typically observed in communities consisting of self-contained forums devoted to specific interests, beliefs or subcultures.”

Is Mise rolling out the farmer's wife with the shells in her apron again, along with perfunctory “Greens” bashing that OSW gleefully joined in, with makes a mockery of the countless times we have canvassed these same issues. Back we go to “redundancy, cliches, and karma whoring”.

But hats off to you my good fellow, you are a far better man than I sir and while your efforts here might not be followed they are applauded.

Dear SteeleRedux,

How does one argue with a person who one basically disagrees with. The answer: with your hat. You put it on and walk away. You are not going to prove them wrong and yourself right except in your mind.

However, if you walk away you have deprived yourself of contact with that person. Every person who has contributed to this discussion is a human being, and every human being has something of value in them. That is not a statement of fact since I can’t prove it. It is a statement of belief, and I have acted on that belief by not putting on my hat.

If one states that one is a Green and one is communicating with someone who is not you can expect to hear Green bashing. If one goes pear shaped at hearing Green bashing don’t associate with anyone who isn’t a Green. o sung wu has made his position on torture clear. I have made my position on torture clear. There doesn’t seem to be any point for us to continue to discuss torture. However, o sung wu is more than someone who disagrees with me on torture. He is also a human being who is or was a cop. He knows what it is to be a cop. I don’t so I asked him about it. He was most forthcoming and told me a little about it. The only way to really know what it is like to be in the police is to be in the police. However, I am grateful to him for telling me a little bit about it that I didn’t know.

Even though we disagree with each other we live in the same world and, if we are in touch with reality, we must in some degree see the same world. Although I disagree with many positions that Jay of Melbourne has I see him as an intelligent person who is aware of some of the things that I am aware of.

continued

continued

Jay of Melbourne wrote: “Back in the days when gun ownership was common we also had mental hospitals, it was easier to get a gun but it was also easier to get disturbed people locked up indefinitely for their own and society's protection.”

That is perfectly true. My wife used to work in one of those places in Melbourne. It is now high priced real estate and has not been replaced by a similar facility. Should I disagree with that statement because JOB made it?

Back to your point about torture. I agree. I don’t think there is too much room to debate whether torture is right or wrong.

I was just reading a book on philosophy which deals with various theories of moral behaviour. I mentioned the Solzhenitsyn Principle in a previous post. There is also consequentialism which maintains that an act is moral if it has good consequences. Since we can’t know all the consequences of an act consequentialism doesn’t work. All the moral theories set up scenarios to back them up. All the moral theories are flawed for no other reason than the fact we can’t anticipate all the circumstances in which we may find ourselves Although I believe torture is wrong would I have the guts to refuse to torture another person if the alternative were that I would be tortured myself if I didn’t torture the other person?

We can just muck around and try to do the best we can. That's not very inspiring, but I think that's the way it is.

o sung wu, you ask; <<Can you (paul1405) see any circumstance whatsoever, where violence is morally justified?>> I am not a total pacifists, if subjected to an unprovoked attack, and I would hope never to provoke a person into physical violence, but give an unprovoked situation I feel a person has the right to defend themselves in a reasonable fashion. I do not see violence as the first alternative but only as a last resort, if you can walk away from a violent situation you should always do so, but I am realistic enough to know there could be a situation where violence can not absolutely be avoided. Should note the police could play a roll in such situation if at all possible. The use of guns in society as a violent instrument is something I totally oppose, vigilante action I also oppose.
I believe in the rule of law, and part and parcel of that rule is a well organised, well disciplined and well trained professional police force, and in Australia we generally have that. That is not to say police should be given 'carte blanche' authority to do as they please. Community vigilance of police through our political and judicial representatives is most necessary, after all as a society we give police a lot of power. As police officers are human, they can do the wrong thing at times.
State sanctioned violence, is another area I feel strongly about, and too often Australia has become involved in wars, without any real justification or prevarication. I hope the day will come when mankind has reached a level of enlightenment and war has become a thing of the past, but given the state of affairs in the world presently that seems a long way off.

Jay, your attempt to associate Greens and people on this forum with this mad man Sheikh Haron, is pathetic. A clever tactic, my friend, if I was to say I agree with the content of his letter, and his letter is quite reasonable. His letter gives no indication of his forthcoming actions of recent days, but you would like nothing better than to link me and others to this mad man by extrapolation. Agree with his letter, dar, dar dar, then you must agree with his recent actions! You show your stupidity and insensitivity and not your intelligence.

"remind you of any of the writing on this forum" NO!

Paul 1405,
You're being overly sensitive, Sheikh Harun was preaching to the choir on social and foreign policy issues, his views got him kicked out of mosques but got him coverage on TV.
I'm using the same tactics the Left use every day, Harun, was using extreme Leftist rhetoric to make his point, just like Wade Page used so called "neo Nazi" rhetoric before attacking a Sikh temple in 2012.
I'm not talking about any one poster specifically but the style of Harun's letters comes from the John Pilger, New Statesman school of thought, a style admired and imitated by many in the pro refugee and Islamic apologist category.
Monkey see monkey do, Harun was rebuffed by conservative Muslims but he knew he'd get sympathy from progressives so he adopted their style of activism, when that didn't work he jumped on the Jihadi bandwagon at the last minute.
It's all connected to this discussion and people's attitudes toward authoritarian regimes and their policies, maybe Harun was tortured in Iran or in prison in Australia, maybe not but he definitely knew enough about how Australian society works to assume he'd get a knee jerk reaction and big hugs from the left and stony silence from Shia Muslims and the right.
Read my previous post on torture, sometimes troublemakers are detained and tortured as a way of discrediting them in the wider community, better to have a few disgraced and dispirited radicals like David Hicks, Mamdouh Habib and Sheikh Harun walking about as examples to others than have every such individual disappear from view.

Jay, show me where this mad man got "big hugs from the left", maybe you can post something from your favorite Neo-Nazi site, which will give you that evidence you need. Obviously you are itching for a "debate" about this, thinking it would be another opportunity to unleash some more of your extremest opinions. You have got about all the reaction you are going to get from me on this, at this time.

To say "Oh golly O Sung! Do the language and themes used by Sheikh Haron remind you of any of the writing on this forum?"

Then say "I'm not talking about any one poster specifically" Cop out by a coward. You must known of posts on here which have language and themes the same as or simmilar to the language and themes of this Sheikh Haron and what is contained in his letter, assuming the letter is not a fake? All individual posts can be attributed to individual posters. Please answer the question.

Good afternoon to you PAUL1405...

I refer to your answer concerning my last enquiry of you. I'm unable to say anything remotely intelligent in which to adequately respond to that answer ?

It's as if you'd managed to comprehensively articulate exactly my own personal thought's on the philosophical approach to violence. If and when it's ever vindicated ? Whether or not it's perpetrated by the 'white hats' or the 'black hats', is immaterial. Violence is evil and rarely excusable or justified, save for under the most extreme circumstances, which you've so lucidly identified !

Paul, my initial summation of you and your political beliefs during our various exchanges apropos the Vietnam War, and the method you dealt with conscription - Were clearly wrong ! For which *I unreservedly apologise* ! Your opposition to the whole moral and ethical question of that War, I would, with respect, (still) utterly disagree with you...but that's what people do in our enlightened society - politely and harmoniously disagree ! That is of course provided one is not required to accommodate those with serious hedonistic and vanity issues ?

Thank you PAUL for your candid and thoroughly honest answer, I greatly appreciate it ! And I sincerely hope will we continue to disagree on almost everything, in order that we may continue with further spirited discussions !

david f,

"....from the site: Elected officials must commit to closing gaps in the current regulatory system, including those that enable felons, minors, persons with mental illness, and other prohibited persons to access firearms, and those that allow the trafficking of illegal guns."

What's different in Australia?
Criminals here get guns as do persons who are suffering mental illness and are prohibited from legally having a gun, Monis being the most recent case in point and trafficking goes on all the time; the police admit that most illegal handguns are unlawfully imported.

Whereas the Greens claim that most illegal pistols are stolen from licenced owners and make such claims without any evidence.

Steele Redux,

"Is Mise rolling out the farmer's wife with the shells in her apron again, along with perfunctory “Greens” bashing that OSW gleefully joined in, with makes a mockery of the countless times we have canvassed these same issues. Back we go to “redundancy, cliches, and karma whoring”

The farmer's wife is still in that position regardless of "redundancy, cliches, and kharma whoring".

Don't you have a solution to her problem?

The Greens, despite the obvious unfairness of her position still wish to saddle her with even more restrictive rules and regulations, there is no way to get past that point.

She is, of course, legally allowed to defend herself against unlawful attack, she just isn't allowed to plan to have anything with which to defend herself.

Let us just suppose that the fox doesn't attack the chooks but the baby who is playing on the back verandah?

What then?

Dear davidf,

Thank you for another considered reply.

You wrote;

“How does one argue with a person who one basically disagrees with. The answer: with your hat. You put it on and walk away. You are not going to prove them wrong and yourself right except in your mind.”

Totally agree but that is not quite how I see the situation here. We are on an open 'opinion' forum and when aberrant and toxic views are presented without challenge those many people who I assume read these posts without contributing themselves may well get the impression that such views are mainstream when they are most certainly not.

However I am more than happy to concede that a discussion in good faith, that explores a topic like this without rancour, is extremely worth while.

I also concede I have a nasty habit of writing people off and find it difficult to get past my knowledge that Jay of Melbourne is a real live Holocaust denier or that onthebeach has a history of harassing female posters on the forum. The fact that you can is an inspiration and I will try harder.

Also it is not Green bashing per se that I am objecting to. A favoured tactic in Australian politics at the moment is to attribute something to the Greens which in reality is a universal value held by the majority of the population. I am convinced the majority of Australians don't want torture done on their behalf not do the want a return to pre-Port Arthur gun laws. But what the likes of Is Mise and o sung wu do is to attach these values firmly to the Greens so they feel they can attack it as fringe think.

Which is why I raised Senator McCain who is not a green but a right wing politician of a country condemned for wholesale torture who spoke very forcefully against it.

I'm sure even within the Green membership there are those who see a role for torture in some form.

O Sung Wu - I wonder if you might be able to answer a question I have regarding the way the police handled the siege.

Once the first hostages were released and interviewed the Police would have known for certain that he was acting only. They also knew exactly who they were dealing with and it was highly unlikely he would give himself up, only to face terrorism charges as well as the murder of his wife and molestation of 40 women. Why didn't they simply use one of the snipers to take him out when they had a clean shot whilst simultaneously storming the doors?

Do you have any professional insights from your experience?

Conservative Hippie,

The reason that the police marksmen with their high powered and extremely accurate sniper's rifles did not fire is because Monis was wearing a backpack and there was no way that they could positively tell that he was not carrying explosives and was not wired so that the shock wave (kinetic energy) from a hit would not detonate any explosives and kill all of the hostages.

The police were between a rock and a hard place.

Sorry Is Mise, that is rationalising to try to cover the fact that they stuffed up. They tried to deal with a Muslim ratbag they would deal with a non Muslim ratbag. A typical example of multiculturalism causing stupid mistakes.

When dealing with a ratbag dreaming if his 72 virgins, you have a different situation, & need to act accordingly.

The fool in charge was on TV tonight boasting they "preferred to talk them out, rather than take them out". Obviously the woman is a fool, who doesn't recognise the difference in attitude different ethnicity brings.

It is fair to chalk these 2 deaths up to the bleeding hearts, & their effect on education in our universities, giving us week kneed assistant police commissioners.

Dear SteeleRedux,

The Gettysburg Address: “The world will little note nor long remember what we say here.” That is from one of the most famous speeches in history, but Lincoln was right. It will eventually be forgotten. It applies even more to an evanescent discussion string on the net. The few people who come across this string will read many other things. I doubt that many of them are Holocaust deniers or have little regard for women. Those that do will find their views reinforced. Those who don’t will be repelled by those sentiments. I don’t think that what we say will make much if any difference.

I told onthebeach what I did and did not see at the Greens. Since that did not conform to his prejudices about the Greens he accused me of telling porkies. I assume that most people are not particularly interested in either my words or onthebeach’s words.

I really don’t think any of our words greatly influence anyone on the outside. I feel I am not writing to the multitudes or even to the ‘right-thinking people.’ (people who think like us) I am writing to you and the other individuals in our discussion string. When I get tired of it I will leave the discussion.

I also don’t think that most Australians want either torture or a return to pre-Port Arthur gun laws. Our major political parties are sufficiently aware of popular feeling so current gun laws will remain the same. Since neither our police nor our security apparatus will be adequately monitored the third degree and torture will continue.

Outside of Graham I doubt that anyone besides the participants in our discussion is following this string. Graham is probably not interested in the discussion but monitors it to see that no one exceeds propriety in his or her remarks.

I continue on this string as I would not meet many of the participants in my non-olo life. Possibly others on the thread may have the same motivation.

From “Patience”: The meaning doesn’t matter if it’s only idle chatter of a transcendental kind!

SteeleRedux, torture is not generally a big topic at my branch meetings, although I freely admit a couple of members can be some what torturous when they speak. I have not come across all that many Green members advocating torture, in fact I have not come across any I can recall.

Hi there CONSERVATIVE HIPPIE...

Thank you for your question, it was indeed valid. However, if you don't mind, I don't have any knowledge or an opinion on how the matter was resolved. I'll admit 'curiosity did kill the cat', and I rang a former colleague, though not at the scene, nevertheless like all 'nosy' senior coppers picked up something, and if true, it's not good at all ? I'm sorry about that CONSERVATIVE HIPPIE !

In 1987 I participated in the 'FBI Urban Sniper's & Marksmen's' School, conducted at Camp Roberts, on the edge of the Mojave desert. The school was conducted entirely by the Bureau, sponsored by the US Army, with specialist instructors from The US Marine Corps, and the US State Department. The long rifle I used (FBI Property) was a Remington Mod 700, with a McMillian Heavy Barrel spitting out .308's. This was my qualifying 'weapon system' only. All other weapon systems we qualified with were of a specialist nature, and not relevant for this discussion.

The only reason I've added this 'useless now redundant piece of data', is to reinforce what IS MISE stated, apropos the decision NOT to 'make the shot'. Had this individual secreted explosives about his person...well who knows ? I'd NOT like to be a hostage if this was the situation !

Today, on the ABC I heard a survey had been conducted by the 'Washington Post' (I think, I'll stand corrected?), after the revelations of the CIA's admission of torture. Apparently, a significant number of those surveyed 'fully supported' the application of torture by the CIA ? A substantial majority was reported ? It's comforting to know that I'm not the only; twisted, brutal, cowardly dysfunctional bastard who supports torture in certain circumstances ?

Hey HASBEEN, what going on ? You're obviously not impressed on how the coppers resolved the matter, and while true two innocents lost their lives, still ? I know nothing about their tactics, or strategies other from a mate who wasn't there so I can't comment ?

What's up mate ? I agree with absolutely everything you say, about multiculturalism, bleeding hearts etc. but the coppers I'm not sure I follow ?

O sung we

the question certainly needs to be asked why the police snipers were not able to shoot this madman before causing the deaths of the innocent. Certainly a very hard call but the question at least needs to be asked. Without any great knowledge of guns I would of thought if they had clear view with cameras that they should have been able to hit their target. Obviously the thickness of glass etc needed to be considered.

Hi there RUNNER...

Indeed you've posed a legitimate question as did CONSERVATIVE HIPPIE, and I'm sorry I can't answer it for you. And you're quite right, thickness of glass etc. there are many considerations impacting upon a sniper. Have no doubt the Coroner will get to the facts relatively soon ? One thing I will say, the emotional pressure an incident has on both the sniper and his observer is massive. We were all under training, but the sweat poured of us all, despite it. It should be remembered too, both sniper and observer are wired for sound, very heavily equipped, and if the weather is hot, well you'll know it!

Something I do believe, the outpouring of public grief, for the two fatalities has restored much of my faith in the goodness of most people, it quite amazed me ?

o sung wu

thanks for response.

'Something I do believe, the outpouring of public grief, for the two fatalities has restored much of my faith in the goodness of most people, it quite amazed me ?'

Have to agree. It also brought out the fools of Greens one of which made some idiotic statement about how good it was to have no traffic in Sydney at a time when innocent hostages were bailed up by this madman. Their perverted ideologies know no decency.

o sung wu, as you know I am the first to jump on the coppers on the forum when I believe they have acted incorrectly or exceeded their powers. So far what I have read and seen on TV I believe the police acted correct. The tragedy is two innocent people lost their lives. Some of our more learned posters might be guilty of watching too many late night cop shows on telly. There is to be an inquire into the matter, and so there should be.
I think some conservatives in society are shocked at the ease in which this rank amateur terrorists was able to do what he did. Its obvious the bloke should not have been out and about as he was, He didn't fly below the radar, in fact he marched right across the radar screen and into the Lindt Cafe. All this took place despite the past political rhetoric on protection of society from the likes of Tough Talking Tony, and Bugsy Baird here in NSW, who incidentally had been given the powers to act against this type of person by the parliament, but had failed to do so, it was a paper work thing, you understand. Maybe Baird needs to be held to account as well.

Paul,

"....I think some conservatives in society are shocked at the ease in which this rank amateur terrorists was able to do what he did...."

Frighteningly true and even more frightening is the ease with which those so inclined could bring Sydney, or any other of our cities, to its knees and with little risk to themselves.

Hasbeen,

"Sorry Is Mise, that is rationalising to try to cover the fact that they stuffed up. They tried to deal with a Muslim ratbag they would deal with a non Muslim ratbag. A typical example of multiculturalism causing stupid mistakes."

That was not rationalizing at all; what the police did was SOP where there is a good chance that there may be explosives.

The police did the right thing by not taking the chance on him being wired to explosives, after all he wouldn't have been the first Muslim terrorist to ascribe to the Big Bang theory of Exit.

'I think some conservatives in society are shocked at the ease in which this rank amateur terrorists was able to do what he did'

not really Paul wasn't it the Green fools who said that this home grown terrorism was only a budget distraction. Now with police being stabbed in Melbourne and innocent lives lost in Sydney I wonder if its still a 'budget distraction'.

Hi there RUNNER...

We're a funny lot we humans, or perhaps we Aussies ? We tend to whinge and whine about this and that, yet when the 'chips are down' we react or respond with great dignity and poise. These been a lot said and written about the events at Martin Place, with 'what ifs', or 'why didn't they' etc ? I really don't know I wasn't there.

Something I would like to say though, much has been made of the Bail Act that had been introduced by the then AG Greg SMITH. It made access to Bail much easier ? Post Martin Place, everybody and his dog has railed against Mr SMITH for watering them down. So much so, the new AG had it repealed, and replaced with a much tougher protocol.

I'm no fan of Mr SMITH but, it's no secret to keep an individual in custody, is financially prohibitive. Therefore the more people you can keep out of gaol, the less cost to governments. I suspect there's very much a financial feature here, nothing to do with him being painted as a 'Dudley do Right' !

o sung wu,

I have had experience with law enforcenment for decades including being a prison officer with Vincent/Jackson. By far the biggest barrier to justice is the lawyers/judges. I know now that every crim awaiting bail or even parole is spewing knowing how this muslim chap was out on bail. Lawyers seem to learn the art of sleaze very early. Unfortunatly I have had to deal with them recently on behalf of someone else. I am sure their are a few decent ones however many of them are lefty brainwashed money grabbers (usually tax payer money) trying to make a name for themselves.

Hi (again) RUNNER...

A Prison Officer ? Well you'd know your way around Long Bay ? I'll bet you've met some boofheads in your time ? Wasn't 'Tony' VINCENT a Doctor or Professor or similar, and didn't he cause all manner of dislocation to the harmonious relationship between the Prison Officer staff and the government, a real 'crook lover' if I recall accurately ? Old Rex 'buckets' JACKSON, crooked as the day was long, still he wasn't a bad sort of bloke from memory.

I bet you could tell some stories with what you've seen in gaols over the years RUNNER ? A whole different perspective to what many people perceive what prison's actually like ? It would do a lot of good for some of these young and foolish wannabe's, to see what life's really like inside ! Perhaps then they might care to review their hitherto negative and pugnacious attitude they have towards the community as a whole. Do you think it would do any good ?

Hi there IS MISE & PAUL1405...

I'm inclined to agree with you both, it is quite alarming how this bloke managed to fly below the radar, given his record of violence and the number of serious offences he's allegedly occasioned against females ? I dunno, I despair somehow we never seem to learn ? We're led round by politicians with rings through our noses, told this and that, and in reality most stuff is patently erroneous.

His access to F/A's is another troubling feature in this equation ? All the while, some of our political masters, wish to further strengthen our F/A laws ? Why ? All that will achieve is to apply a further regulatory impost on completely honest, adequately licenced, legitimate F/A users ? It's not the licit market, it's the illicit market where all our resources should be directed, in order that we may effectively interdict these illegal F/A importers !

And when caught - long sentences, confiscate their property, place lien's over everything else they possess, in other words, knock the absolute stuffing out of them...financially ! In crime, without the 'wherewithal' financing any criminal enterprise is that much harder ! Apparently, it's the '1%' MCGs that have the lion's share of the illegal F/A's importation ?

PAUL1405...

Your comments apropos the conduct of police at that event was fair and balanced. No doubt, that frightening 'C' word will loom very large indeed, (Coroner) for those who needed to discharge their F/A's.

Months and months and months of worry, anxiety, self recrimination, more worry, yet still more worry will ensure ? It will get so even their family members will need to tread carefully around their moods lest a row erupts ? Even though in your own heart and mind, you did your job the best way you knew how ? And it'll all come down to the Coroner.

No academic, would ever experience such emotions !

How about ending the welfare handouts to anyone convicted of serious crimes and for anyone preaching hate (from any religion)?

Maybe if some of the petty criminals and extremists thought their dole was under threat, they would think twice before proceeding.

As complicated as it will be, deport those who have come from other countries and settled in Aus only to commit crimes and/or bag the country that helped them. One strike and your out. if the country they left doesn't want them or will treat them badly if they return - then don't stuff up while you are still welcome here.

Dear o sung wu,

< No academic, would ever experience such emotions !>?

My oldest son is an academic, a professor of anthropology. From the first sentence of the preface of his book: “Rainforest Exchanges”:

“I found the final inspiration for his study in November 1994 as bathtime found me crouching naked in the shallow river’s edge, while a thoroughly besotted man waved a pistol in my face.”

He faced great danger in gathering material in the Amazon rainforest. Two anthropologists investigating another tribe were killed when they broke a taboo they were not aware of.

You might think being an accountant is a safe profession. A cousin of mine is a bankruptcy accountant. His job is like that of a detective. When a corporation goes belly up he is sent in to find out what happened. He was sent to the Philippines to investigate the bankruptcy of a firm in which Marcos was involved. He found a pattern of rampart corruption. Marcos got a hold of his report and asked him to come up to his office. He was offered a bribe. Marcos wanted him to change the report. My cousin is a straight arrow and refused. “Marty, you don’t understand. This is the way we do things here. How about me sending someone to your hotel to discuss the matter with you?” Martin walked out of there and phoned his home office in LA. He was told to go straight to the airport and take the next plane out that he could get. He wound up in Hong Kong and went back to LA from there.

My next door neighbour is a plumber. He spends a couple weeks working in one of the government’s offshore detention centres alternating with a couple weeks home. The centres are dangerous places. A riot may break out at any time.

A policeman’s lot may not always be a happy one, but academics, accountants and plumbers can also find themselves in stressful situations.

O Sung Wu,
It is difficult to judge what could have been done from afar.

I am sure the police marksman could have taken the offender out with no trouble at that range, but they knew not what was in the back pack or how it was wired. At least in the early stages they did not know if the bloke was alone or not. I am sure a full jacket projectile would do the job after penetrating the glass window. A 100gn projectile, at 3000fps, would stop most humans. Plenty of rifles and calibers around to do that.

However the other considerations and unknowns make the decision difficult. I was not there so will not comment further but appreciate the considerations.

Hi DAVID F...

Anyone of us can find ourselves in dangerous and stressful situations, no matter what vocational pursuits we've undertaken. However I'm rather surprised you failed to grasp the substance or gravity of the point I was attempting to make ? Therefore any further comment I might make would probably not satisfy you ? All that I can respectfully say to you, I've held that opinion pretty well my entire working life, purely as a result of 'repeated' experiential or empirical evidence.

Anyway, I realise I'm (again) well off Topic, as initiated in the first instance, by PAUL1405. I understand the events that occurred on Monday last, ending early AM Tuesday, in Martin Place, has pretty well supplanted everything else worthy of discussion ? As I'm one of the worst offenders for wandering aimlessly off the discussion at hand, I'll now excuse myself.

Should another contributor choose to raise a specific Topic dealing with the Martin Place tragedy, well we'll see.

In closing DAVID F, I realise academics play an important part in our lives. I guess my argument with most...Very few of them seem able to confine or even recognise the boundaries of their allotted task ? Neither do many of them accept their own individual limitations or level of competency ?

They often seem to lose track of the aegis from where they receive their mandate and directions, a serious fundamental flaw. An example; A superior officer, receives accurate data and answers to a problem that; (a) doesn't exist; and (b) for which a solution had not been sought ? Because the researcher or academic felt it necessary, to go well beyond his specific instructions, resulting is a waste of time and resources ? The only question being, why ?

o sung wu, I hope I'm not being overly skeptical but I am getting the feeling that some polititions and others will be happy to see Commissioner Andrew Scipione and Deputy Commissioner Catherine Burn take the fall for any short comings over this tragedy, all awhile hiding their own complicity of course.
I was shocked to read today that as far back as 2000 Iranian police had asked Australia to extradite Monis to that country over a number of violent crimes there, Australia refused, no doubt as Iran was not the political flavor then and there could have been some political considerations in that decision.

Dear o sung wu,

You wrote: “I realise academics play an important part in our lives. I guess my argument with most...Very few of them seem able to confine or even recognise the boundaries of their allotted task ? Neither do many of them accept their own individual limitations or level of competency ?

They often seem to lose track of the aegis from where they receive their mandate and directions, a serious fundamental flaw. An example; A superior officer, receives accurate data and answers to a problem that; (a) doesn't exist; and (b) for which a solution had not been sought ? Because the researcher or academic felt it necessary, to go well beyond his specific instructions, resulting is a waste of time and resources ?”

I have been an academic. Your remarks indicate you know as little about being an academic as I do about being a policeman.

Hi DAVID F...

I can live with that !

o sung wu, you mention the Coroner, & some worry about their finding.

I have recently been amazed at a pronouncement by "the Queensland coroner", displaying that "the coroner" had no idea of what they were talking about. Yes very common with bureaucrats, & academics, but we seem to believe anything the coroner finds, is solid fact.

I had not thought of them before, & have no idea of how many there are, or what qualifications they have, or require. To be good at the job they would require a huge range of knowledge, backed up by great common sense.

What have you found with Coroners? How many of them are there? How do political leanings effect their approach & findings.

In other words, give us a glimpse of your experience of them.

As for the current fiasco, yes I'm very critical. With Muslim hostage takers they are going to have to be very proactive. Mucking around negotiating with ratbags, letting them give up, or kill themselves has worked with others, but will not work with a ratbag heading to his appointment with his 72 virgins.

Soft feminine policing will not work with these people. They will have to be taken out quick smart, or the death toll will be greater.

The cops can't depend on there always being a hero, who will do their job for them. I hope there are not too many cops at the top, who are all academic, & no street experience

Dear davidf,

You may underestimate the reach of OLO I have a bit to do with web page statistics and you would be quite surprised exactly how many views a site will get. On one of the sites I promote I can get over 10,000 views on a blog post within a very short space of time and tools like Google Analytics give a pretty clear view of where they are coming from even drilling down to some really interesting demographics.

Knowing I contribute here a couple of my mates and a couple of relatives will often remark about a particular thread that has caught their eye, none of them however are posters.

That being said social media is probably far more pervasive, both in spreading good messages such as #illridewithyou and bad such as some of the real hate and racism currently coming through my children's social media accounts.

As to why I still post here? While OLO isn't as stimulating as it once was I always find it valuable in collecting my thoughts on a topic so when engaging in discussion or debate off-line with our extended group, something I thoroughly enjoy, I am a little more able to get off on the front foot.

Actually the discussion I had last night with a budding young lawyer on the future sentience and culpability of driver-less cars was a ripper.

As to the Gettysburg Address fading from memory I think the opposite is happening. Digital storage and things like the Google books project means that things are being rescued from obscurity and I have little doubt that the digital footprint of sites like OLO will be scanned and digested by future historians.

So best behaviour my friend, your great, great, great, grand daughter may well be reading this very post some time in the distant future.

Say hello.

Good evening HASBEEN...

In essence the Coroner is a Magistrate who is dedicated wholly to death and fires. The Coroner's Court doesn't follow or apply the same rules of evidence as the ordinary Courts demand. Their purpose is to establish the probable cause of death, or the cause of fire. In most major Aussies cities the Coroner is a full time appointment, whereas in country regions the ordinary Magistrate can don the Coroners hat if required. There's a certain level of expertise that goes with the job, and naturally some matters do have a requirement for a relatively strong stomach.

Please don't misunderstand me when I mention that some coppers 'quiver' before fronting the Coroner. The real heat comes from a police shooting, where it's incumbent upon the Coroner to examine all the facts touching on that shooting. Generally speaking 'if' the police shooter has strictly followed procedures, the Coroner will produce a finding of 'justification'. Often though, the NOK of the victim, who was killed by police, will be very unsatisfied with the Coroner's findings, if they support the police's version of events (and that's quite understandable), and not the victim's ?

The number of Coroners around Australia ? I'm not sure. However in Sydney there are quite a number, with one State Coroner for NSW as the top man. Two favourites were Kevin WALLER and Derek HAND each were appointed as State Coroners, and both were careful, very experienced gentleman who were fair and compassionate when dealing with those shocked by sudden death.

If a copper was too quick with his F/A, he had a problem. Follow procedure, and the 'use of force' paradigm, generally speaking the average copper would fare quite OK. Choose deception and play 'ducks and drakes' well, be assured the Coroner will generally 'tease' it all out eventually, then you're in big trouble, possibly confronting criminal charges.

Sorry old man, I realise I haven't told you much, but there's quite a bit to it, and I've a thumping headache. Sorry to you too PAUL1405, I'll speak with you tomorrow if that's OK ?

Hi (again) DAVID F, HASBEEN and PAUL1405...

Listening to the news earlier on this morning, an academic, apparently an 'expert' on terrorism from Macquarie University (I stand to be corrected ref. Uni.) uttered words to the effect '...the authorities should have seen this coming, obviously a deficiency in their systems, and why did this fellow seem to slip through the cracks...? Or similar language ?

Well I suppose hindsight is a wonderful thing ? Imagine if they were so gifted prior to WW l; or the rise of Adolf HITLER in the early 1930's ? Consider the countless millions of lives that would've been saved, with this unique understanding 'after' the event or situation ?

Of course it would've been far better if tougher Bail conditions were in place, Intelligence was more accurate and reliable, and when suspicions were realised, immediately acted upon...? What is not OK is another asinine academic, attempting to get his name in the media by pontificating about the obvious ! If this fellow is so gifted, rather than re-identifying the problem, ad nauseam, provide a realistic solution ?

DAVID F...

Please understand, I'm not trying to denigrate you, your profession, or academic 'calling' ? And you're right, I do know a little about 'critical incident' management. Surely you must see though, what a stupid, pointless and unhelpful remark to be made by this fellow ? When we have two 'extended' families trying to grieve for their pointless 'loss' ? If any criticism is due, then in the fullness of time, I'm sure the Coroner will identify any and all the problems that existed during the prosecution of this incident ?

G'day PAUL1405...

Sorry for the delay, had a headache last evening. It's accepted that our noble politicians are uniquely accomplished at CYA, however would they learn to survive, in order to 'pocket' their massive cheques, after a term or two in parliament ?

Only time will tell how Andy SCIPIONE and ors. come out of all this ? You're a man of the world Paul, the accolades 'always' go up ! And 'effluence' always heads down ? That's why many a sergeant and senior constable have rounded shoulders, because of the huge weight on them, and wear their 'body armour' backwards to deflect the knives they cop in the back, from the bosses ?

Seriously, I'd be surprised after the dust settles, if there are no recrimination(s) levelled, both at police command, and those at the coal face ? Still I really don't know ? It will prove interesting to see what the Coroner comes up with ? He's the guy who has all the wherewithal to 'tease' out all the facts, rumours, allegations, fairy tales...everything really. I just hope it's given to the 'State Coroner' himself (the Boss), generally the most experienced of that august assembly ?

As a footnote PAUL, I really empathise with the copper or coppers who fatally shot that fellow. It matters not, how justified their actions were, they still need to await the Coroner's findings ? It's always the unknown factor, that's the worry ?

Dear o sung wu,

The remark was indeed stupid and pointless. However, you made a bunch of generalisations about academics which were completely unreasonable.

I have not commented on this thread about the Sydney atrocity as I wasn't there and wouldn't have known what to do if I had been there.

It's best if one doesn't know what one is talking about to keep silent.

david f,

Perhaps there is some advice there that you might heed yourself.

By way of example,

" However, if one compares the rate of death by firearms with that of the rate in the US which does not have gun control laws similar to that in Australia, the US is far worse. In my opinion Australia is better off than the US in that respect, the upside is greater than the downside in respect to the Australian gun laws, and Howard did a good thing for Australia."

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6664&page=19

What you are silent on is the well-publicised fact that almost all of the firearms violence in the US is black (and Hispanic) on black (and Hispanic) and is linked with drugs and gangs.

Regarding the Howard inspired 'initiatives', you might like to educate us all on what exactly there is in the bureaucratic paper-chase that came from Howard that actually acts to reduce gun crime. Because it is a sad but true fact that criminals don't obtain a firearms licence (wouldn't get one anyhow) and they certainly don't buy from legal sources and nor do they register their 'pieces'. Police reports prove that offenders don't get their scary weapons used for crimes from stealing from licensed members of the public either.

Frankly it is hard to imagine how any additional regulation can top the rather obvious one that have always been there to protect the public. Murder IS unlawful, isn't it?

Rather than lecture another poster for alleged lack of knowledge of academia you might look to your own responsibility as a (past) senior academic to be scrupulously correct in your claims and to at least note any relevant qualifications and research to back up your claims. Otherwise, what purpose is served by appealing to your claimed senior academic status?

If you are siding with gun control at least declare your interest. That it is your opinion and worth no more than any other person's. That is the way of academia isn't it? To be up-front so readers can look for that researcher error you have already displayed, for instance?

Hi there DAVID F...

'It's best if one doesn't know what one is talking about to keep silent' and to extrapolate your sentence a fraction further DAVID, '...and seem a fool ? Rather than to continue to open one's mouth and confirm the fact...' ?

Your remarks are not completely lost on me, DAVID F ? However, I totally refute any notion that, because an academic says it's so, so it is ? I've absolutely conceded, that people who've dedicated a substantial part of their young adult lives in pursuit of further knowledge, should be appropriately acknowledged.

However there are instances where a more pragmatic, even an intuitive approach is far more appropriate and effective, than the relentless input from a theoretician. And I'm not speaking of scientific assistance provided by highly specialised academics the likes of Doctors and those within their broad discipline.

I refer specifically to the social engineers, criminologists and the many other 'ologists' who tend to skirt around the periphery of human behaviour. And when their opinions are sought, often they furnish highly credible data that assists those at the coal face. What other concessions can I possibly make DAVID F ? I've not been impertinent enough to ask your discipline of study either. That is in deference to your age ? I hope we can at least part cordially, on this Topic ?

Dear o sung wu,

We don't have to part at all. We can continue to interact with each other. Academics as well as others can pontificate about matters of which they know little. Part of the blame rests with the TV media. They go to universities and get talking heads to comment on matters in the news. There was simply too much commentary on the Sydney siege. Much of it sounded worthless.

You wrote: ", I totally refute any notion that, because an academic says it's so, so it is"

I would go further and maintain that because anyone says it's so it is so. Unless they present reliable data to support their case doubt is called for. Even so one may question whether the data is reliable.

I taught computer science, mathematics and physics. I have been a design engineer among other things.

In designing anything we have the objective criterion that it must work well and be easy to repair if something goes wrong.

davidf,

"In designing anything we have the objective criterion that it must work well and be easy to repair if something goes wrong"

With an outlook like that you wouldn't have got a position with a lot of car makers, "....and be easy to repair...." is a serious 'no-no'. (smiley !!)

Hi (again) DAVID F...

DAVID in my own quite finite interpretation, I would NOT call you an academic, more scientist. It is for this reason, and the fact that I'm not very skilled at clearly enunciating my own thoughts, I often (more by misadventure rather than intent) put my size 11's squarely in my mouth ! Scientist or academic - a rose by any other name. Perhaps not in my book at least ?

To be perfectly honest with you, your three disciplines of study, I'd have enormous difficulty even spelling them, let alone having any appreciation of their precise application. In fact so 'dense' am I, when the police department started introducing computers into the job, myself and a large number of my peer group (including quite a number of senior officers) were required to attend remedial classes just to understand even the very basic applications involved. And how to complete the many 'time-saving' templates that had been designed to aid us ?

Attempting to prise many of us, away from the old manual 'Olivetti' and our little bottle of 'Tipex' correction fluid, was a job in itself ? Imagine if you will, these large cranky old coppers, all frantically trying to maintain control of their favourite manual typewriters ? Must have been a very amusing sight to all concerned ? Even today at 75 years of age, all I can manage, is send a few Emails, and the occasional EBay transaction ?

In fact it's my dear wife who handles all the other mysteries that manage to confound me most of the time ? It's she who courageously stands in front of the window, when in a fit of pique, I threaten to throw the damn thing through it !

The above will surely confirm for all time, the level of my own rank stupidity and academic deficiencies. So there you are ? In my book you're a scientist, and without that venerable group, our world, our human advancement would remain essentially, static and without a future ?

Thank you for sharing that information with us all.

@ Paul

<<I was shocked to read today that as far back as 2000 Iranian police had asked Australia to extradite Monis to that country over a number of violent crimes there, Australia refused, no doubt as Iran was not the political flavor then and there could have been some political considerations in that decision.>>

ROFLMAO

<< Iran was not the political flavor then and there could have been some political considerations in that decision.>>

Duh!

All his taxpayer funded legal team would have had to say is -- his life was in danger --and SBS, the ABC and the Greens would have launched a SAVE POOR MONIS campaign