<<.Back in those days the proportion..of productive people where far greater that the non-productive ones.>.

AGREED/MORE.were value adding/by working
ADDING VALUE/RATHER THAN COMMISION/'SERVICE'-FEES/

govt did much..things cost the price..of production[raw material was dirt cheap]

<<..Gold and silver would have no value,,to the non-productive world I described in my previous post.>>

how about as decoration..[JEWELRY]..[ELECTRICAL CONECTIONS]..OR HEALTH..[TEETH/NOT MADE FROM MERCURY AMALGAM
OR Industry or as symbolic.[WEDDING BANDS]

IN THE PAST TIMES MAKING A SILVER SPOON WAS AS SIMPLE AS MELTING DOWN A FEW ACTUAL SHILLINGS..thats how the wikiseed/wikigeld money works too/as a raw material to add value into/by refining it into bread/food fuel fiber etc

INFLATION..<<..we have a greater proportion of non-productive individuals demanding more from a lesser proportion of productive ones.>>

NO WE HAVE..chasnged monetary policies[bankers are colluding now to use our money intrest free/lower intrest..means theIR GETTING OUT MONEY FOR FREE[WELL BELOW INFLATION DEFLATING THEIR INHERANT..stored-values even further/down

if/your..'hair'..was money[dont mean you value my hair/the same value
even the libor exchange rates are fixed..to gain maximum advantage for the banks[the bankers wont save us..they..hide their wealth away.in tax free havens..TRUSTS..ETC..BUT IN TIME WILL GET CAUGHT BY SOME OTHER 'BAIL-IN'..washingh clean their filthy paper


<<>.you can never have..a bucket of debt...It is merely one of the ruses..that enable a non-productive parasite..a means..to accrue productive wealth.>>..agreed

<<>>your perspective..is taken half way..up the ladder....I believe you need to go..to the bottom of the ladder,..pre money and when gold and silver..had only bling value.>>..

i seek..to have..work..be self rewarding..those with working skills deserve a reasonable standard..of living[and those wanting to work/need easy available license..and material/with which to work.
[restore true values..to the workers..and health/wealth can only accumulate..into/product.

OUG – Good Morning

I believe you have descended a couple of rungs down the ladder. Let’s see if I can get you to the bottom. At that point perhaps there is a simple solution to Crackcup’s dilemma.

You describe money as an “abstract concept” and “a con” with an “imagined value” that “dumfounds the audience”. I agree whole heartedly.

A chain that adds value is productivity. You have no argument from me on that point.

“The world has become a place for slaves”. This has been the case for a long time it is just covert in our time because of money. The strip system, the pyramids and the cotton fields are examples of honest slavery. Monetary debt as you rightly point out is a covert form of slavery.

Your closing comment:

“i seek..to have..work..be self rewarding..those with working skills deserve a reasonable standard..of living[and those wanting to work/need easy available license..and material/with which to work.[restore true values..to the workers..and health/wealth can only accumulate..into/product.”

I agree 100%. Although shorter isn’t it the same as:

Productive wealth must be shared proportionally, were the creators of wealth receive more than the takers of wealth.

Although totally impractical and I am not suggesting this is a solution, what would happen if we took money out of the global system. This would mean trade would still exist but the way it is done would change. Hypothetically what services would no longer be required? A complex society would still require some non-productive services to function such as health, education, security and a just system of law.

What say you?

productive/said..[re..the hair-shavers..[money-printers?]

<<..who..choose/to shave..their heads.

<<..Debt is..created artificially,..not produced.>>

things..can be taken/many ways..
they..'produced'..the fiction..of promesary-money
/that allowed us..to hyper produce/EVOLVE..to where we now are..

[and the usual fix for wealth....[now]..IS BOMB THEM..[US]..
BACK INTO POVERTY..[stonier-age/rage]..THEN Inflate the money..by shortening/supply..inflate/debt..[DILUTE/IT..[WATER IT DOwn]..into thin air..dilute/pollute/PROSTITUTE..substitute.

then..[loot..the last drags]..and..then..build it..all over again

SO/FAR..its been/worth..the cost..[HAS BEEN..PRODUCTIVE]..IN THAT IT GOT US..TO WHERE WE NOW..ARE..[ever reducing..value/dividend]....EVER/BIGGER DEBT.

from here..its all down..hill/empty shops with no or minuscule..real asset or value..closing mega factories/landlords..and property will be..the next bubble/bursting/.then auto's..art other assts..till we find..we cant eat..coin..NOR PAPER/BUT YEARN..FOR..the..SEED/THAT CAN MEET..*any need.

its..not going..to be..pretty..[but look..if we open/the shops
get rid of..the death taxes and sin taxes/sukking-up..ever more..of our time/labor..[ie all taxes/service fees..etc paid to govt/GONE\

then suddenly..it wont collapse..cause..we got the cash flow/credit capactity..[the mean's/and way..to pay..[IN-FULL]..all debt.

no fault DEFAULT..[BY OMNIPOTENT/MIDDLE-MEN]..
ISNT AS GOOD..AS NO DEFAULT..AS A SURETY

I PUT UP 3 WAYS..TO GET THERE..or rather stay..more comfortablY
were we are/with only better times ahead..one or all..is like doubling down..the surety..in-sure assuraNCE.

revalue coin..[half-way if you must]..just add one 0..
instead of two..SO 5/CENT=..50..cent[not $5]....that still goes a long way..to paying the rent..or/food..[but with..two 0/s..we KNOW ALL RENTS WILL GET PAID..AND SOME WILL RISK..STOCKING UP A SHOP

[LOOK WE KNOW..IN THE END..THE MONEY-CHANGERS ARE EXPERT
AT GETTING OUR MONEY..ok so..[we*]..anti-up..the kitty by a fair return dividend[lest we forget the commies got shares when they went bust/

but capitalism..wants to kill the lot of us/take our savings..leaving us paper propmise shares[talk about flooding the mnarket[mugs thionking the banks vaults hold anything/will BUY UP OTHERS PAper[swop it for a tv like they ussr..DISOLUTION


<<..You can have a bucket load of debt metaphorically, but you can never have a bucket of debt. It is merely one of the ruses that enable a non-productive parasite a means to accrue productive wealth.>>

IM SORRY I CANT COMPREHEND..HOW FILLING UP AN EMPTY BUCKET WITH TRUE GOD GIVEn wealth..[seed from the tree of life]..a promise god gave unto all mankind..relates

there is a whole..in the bucket..
.and if we can buy..off..the money-changers
[hole*..and make/them..wHOLE]..[even holy]..then..lets do it

edited/for context..from..[we*=me.]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16188&page=4

OUG – I know it will take you out of your comfort zone, but again I ask.

Although totally impractical and I am not suggesting this is a solution, what would happen if we took money out of the global system. This would mean trade would still exist but the way it is done would change. Hypothetically what services would no longer be required? A complex society would still require some non-productive services to function such as health, education, security and a just system of law.

Don’t forget there is no money in this hypothetical world.

What say you?

Perusing the responses to my Article, I have noted many references and theories regarding the future direction of our "Democracy"

I was going to contribute further with a "flowery" continuation of the subject discussion, however I have decided instead to put what I consider to be the problem in simple terms,...Greed is the overall enemy of this and every other so-called Democracy in the world today.

GREED is an institution practised by the ones at the very top of the heap, trickling down through the masses to the lower socio-economic groups that are rapidly increasing in number.

Why do I say that?...well let`s look at the State and Federal Governments in general, they have been wringing their hands in mock concern that the coffers are nearly depleted, so we have to suffer drastic cutbacks etc,...yet during this same period of fiscal restraint ( and pseudo concern ) both groups have manipulated themselves a massive and obscene pay increase!

To add insult to injury, they ( the fiscally priveleged ) are off on their whirlwind World Tours, taking with them some of the wealthiest business people in the country,( and I wonder if they are financed by the Taxpayers ) all in the name of selling ( the concept ) of Australia overseas.

I would think that Joe Hockey should be encouraging tight fiscal restraint, and setting some sort of example to the community instead
the old "nudge, nudge, wink, wink, ...say no more!"

Will this subterfuge ever end?

Crackcup – Your first sentence has a fundamental error. The Coalition received 45.55% of the vote yet control 60% (90 seats) in the House of Representatives. THIS IS NO DEMOCRACY! With the exception of Tasmania no parliament in this country governs with a majority.

Greed is a human condition that afflicts us all too some degree. The condition varies depending on personality and opportunity and is uncontrollable.

What do you suggest is the solution to your/our dilemma?