I am amazed at the number of people that I come in contact with who are NOT interested at all in the politics of this country.

Every individual should at least follow the ongoing proceedings of the Parliament, to see for themselves the furore that is enacted in
both Houses as the children squabble and fight to gain a few "brownie points".

The electorate is waiting in dread of what is coming for many constituents, as the Government Treasury representatives and ALL
of their think-tank spin-doctors decide exactly who is going to get the proverbial axe in the looming Budget.

Myself and my wife live in fear, bordering on terror of what these clowns have planned for us come Budget Day.

We are Old Age Pensioners who live on a small Superannuation Pension and a Part Old Age Pension.
We budget our income carefully to enable us to pay our bills etc. Never do we go away on holidays, our income simply does not
cater for that type of luxury.

We are hearing these "leaked" suppositions that indicate to us that the likes of us are going to be targetted for
drastic cuts in our Pensions,(always the ones least equipped to fight back), whilst at the same time obscene increases in GST,
Fuel Excise and the general cost of living.

We cannot understand how the mainstream Politicians can keep giving themselves Pay Rises, shunting off Billions of
Dollars in Overseas Aid and hosting all of the usual G( pick a number) type fiascos, etc, etc, then telling us that we are
living in the "lucky country" which is obviously very "lucky" indeed for them and their mates!

Dear Crackcup,

<<Every individual should at least follow the ongoing proceedings of the Parliament>>

Why, do we have enough psychiatrists to handle all the resulting cases of depression?

<<I am amazed at the number of people that I come in contact with who are NOT interested at all in the politics of this country.>>

Reinhold Niebuhr wrote the following prayer (commonly misattributed to St. Francis of Assisi):

God, give me grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed,
Courage to change the things
which should be changed,
and the Wisdom to distinguish
the one from the other.

As politics is one of those things we cannot do anything about other than pray that the earth opens up and swallows the parliament building while in session and all politicians be taken by the plague, we better have a life of our own:

Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,
Taking, as Jesus did,
This sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it,
Trusting that You will make all things right,
If I surrender to Your will,
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with You forever in the next.

Amen.

Yuyutsu, "As politics is one of those things we cannot do anything about other than pray that the earth opens up and swallows the parliament building.."

Maybe Crackup should add another complaint, that people are dismissed when they pass a certain age and are not listened to.

The ethnic, gay and feminist lobbies do very well indeed out of their representations to politicians. They even manage to swing from the taxpayers' teat while they are doing it.

The problem for seniors is that they do not present a credible block of votes that can and will be shifted. As proof of that I would warrant that some, many?, age pensioners who read your reasonable post would likely disagree with you solely because you are to some extent a self-supporting retiree. I don't know where the dog-in-the-manger attitudes originate, but from my reading and listening it seems to come more strongly from one direction.

However it is apparent that the old are not respected and valued as in many other countries. The Left don't appear to be very keen on older people for a start, except for taking away their assets and after death too via death tax, which the Greens are pushing of course.

Yuyutsu,

Part of my reply to you was in answer to Crackup. Sorry for any confusion to your both. Have a good day.

Dear OnTheBeach,

The Australian electoral system is designed to keep ordinary people out, leaving only two parties on stage, Tweedledum and Tweedledee, to stage a constant rooster-fight between them in parliament, to entertain the public as the Romans watched their gladiators, creating artificial drama to divert attention from their common everyday aggression against ordinary people onto esoteric minor differences that are irrelevant to most of us. It's not that I'm excited about democracy, but nothing short of proportional representation can even be remotely called 'democracy'.

Israel, which has proportional-representation, had an "aged-pensioners" party, which in 2006 took 7 out the Knesset's 120 seats, partially as a protest vote by young people as well. At the time they became a part of Israel's coalition-government (but they failed in the 2009 elections due to internal disputes).

I wouldn't worry too much Crackcup a lot of the current noise is window dressing so most will say, "phew, it wasn't so bad after all" after the event.

There is no way any government could survive, giving a huge maternity bonus to wealthy women, a huge pay out to the "disabled" in the NDIS, & a huge boost to school teachers in the Gonski school funding fiasco, if they were to cut the pensions at the same time.

The current government know that as well as anyone, & are not about to cut their own throat.

If they have half a brain, they will recognise that bureaucrats vote Labor, & restrict their cuts to that sector, which would cost them nothing, & probably earn lots of brownie points with the general public.

We pensioners may be squeesed a little, but I doubt it will be enough to break the bank.

crackers/quote..,,<<..The electorate is waiting in dread>>

of what the elect..will do to them
then sigh with relief as they get the offer
and the new tax..[anything as long as its not me]
and thats all anyone cares about[full stop]

they will never want to know about Parliament..they will/never know the joys of watching the farce..of a speaker and me being the only one listening..[then watching as the question time scrum comes]..then disappear yet again as the camera goes off

its all a show..and thats all
the public service long ago got told..[by those running govt[commerce/capitalsts public service/bankers lawyers and cops]

its a filthy game[even once ya get in your told you wont be allowed to change anything[they watch the safety of your kids[get it?]

you caNT GET ELECTED/INLESS THEY GOT THE DIRT ON YOU
its just easier to get anything you want/that way

dont sweat..on whats is comming/just be thankfull for what they letr us have..and hope they dont come take it /anytime they like

<<.of what is coming for many constituents, as the Government Treasury representatives and ALL..of their think-tank spin-doctors decide exactly who is going to get the proverbial axe in the looming Budget.>>>

its just the way it is
[you do know this is satans realm?]
heaven on earth..is the joke..the real heaven..we earn[the same way wwe earn the hell]..is determined by what we did here/now..to change things..[and yes words are cheap/but united action is imposable/the second your efforts need more than just you..their nullified

the only faint hope i can see for change..is to stand before a judge..and request they deliver my warrant..to her roYAL MAJESTY
untill her armed forces force the high and mighty to pull their heads in..things will continue to rot

alone we are nothing
but thats how i keep resisting ..i speak to the judge
REMINDING HER/HIM..WE BOTH SWORE OATH..to serve protect..hrh/her airs and suck[us]..

2B/CTD

[the living wealth exploited by tHE DEAD Cooperate money changers

that and spead aROUND the info
http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/rbn-what-really-happened-w/id389925703#
http://whatreallyhappened.com/podcasts/hourtitle1.m3u

THIS EXPLAINS BOTH THE PLAN OF ACTION
AS WELL AS THE CAUSE..the root of treason
except the know well enough the evil they do

AND HOW IT ENDS
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6152&page=0#178808

and we shall see who has been good and bad
[only the living will be allowed to trade..in their own name
at their own personal accounting..to those who have that their meant to have more will be given
but ye who have more..dont be so sure

just dont be making things any worse..im so over the whole thing
but we are all equally accorded our living under the will of the one good[god]..of the holy of holy[you]

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16166&page=0

we can only resist..doing further evil
govt can issue its own lawfull tender
[see federal constitution 115
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION ACT - SECT 115 ... money,
a state/shall not coin/money..nor make anything but gold and silver coin a legal tender in payment of debts.

but bankers debased the coin..via inflation causing boom/bust bubbles
thus one/[sterling-SILVER Pound]..is now two dollar coins weighing far less than the promised silver.gold coin..[govT CAN MINT..ITS OWN MONEY..]..IM FAIRLY SURE GOVT CANT BORROW ITS OWN MONEY FROM BANKERS

BUT THINK..THE QUEENS HEAD ASSURED THE METAL COIN CONTENT/VALUE[OUR COIN HAS BECOME DEBASED/AND SO HAVE WE ALL BEEN DEBAWSED..INTO DEBT

A few questions there. Do they have half a brain, i doubt that they do.
The NDIS was agreed to and funding arrangements were put in place.
The welfare for rich is unfunded and has to be scrapped.
The Education sector will probably suffer funding cuts.
They will cut their own throat, they always do.

I listened to the news at Midday today and heard
them discussing Mr Sinodinos's first court appearance
this morning. When Mr Sinodinos was asked whether it
was true that he was paid over $200,000 for 26 hours
work last year (yes, it was 26 hours only that he'd worked).
He replied, "That didn't include 'travel-time'".

Gee whiz, some people certainly have it tough!
And now it makes one wonder whether selling off our
State Assets - will only benefit "Jobs For the Boys,"
as it did in Victoria under Jeff Kennett.

And these are the people the voters elect - time and time again.
Perhaps we really do need to take a closer look at who
is actually representing us?

DEAR JOE..I KNOW THAT RUSSIA AND CHINA FEEL SECURE AS THEY ARE
BUT BLIND FREDDY CAN SEE GOOD OL USA HAS HAD ITS DAY
ITS RUN OUT OF SMALL FISH/TO STEAL THEIR GOLD/SILVER MINERAL WEALTH/PUBLIC SERVICES POWER WATER TRANSPORT PORTS BANKING SYSTEMS

THUS WHEN THEY SEE STUFF LIKE THIS.PLUS NORTY KOREA/PLUS THE ENCOURAGING OF THE JAPS..THEY CAN SEE THE GRAND PLAN..THEY [GOOD OLD ZIONIST USA/AND THE EURO-PLUTOCRACY]..want a war..so they can do some 'asset \seizure under war powers on the last two gold rich/SILVER RICH BANKING SYSTEMS REMAINING[NOT YET UNDER THEIR ABSOLUTE CONTROL]

Ukraine crisis: Poland asks Nato
to station 10,000 troops on its territory
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10737838/Ukraine-crisis-Poland-asks-Nato-to-station-10000-troops-on-its-territory.html

Nato is divided over demands from Poland and the Baltic states for a permanent deployment of the Alliance's troops to defend them from Russia

EVERYWHERE THE ZION:YANKIES GO THEY SOW TERROR
ye shall know them by their fruits.
WHO NEXT MUST STAND TOGETHER..OR FALL ALONE
http://www.internationalman.com/articles/why-turkey-was-planning-a-false-flag-operation-in-syria#.UzwvRKI0qiQ

http://english.pravda.ru/world/ussr/02-04-2014/127242-ukraine_presidential_candidates-0/
http://beforeitsnews.com/military/2014/04/navy-seal-shot-warned-americans-days-ago-on-judge-jeanine-show-2460310.html
http://whatreallyhappened.com/
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/holohoax.htm
http://cnsnews.com/mrctv-blog/barbara-boland/sixth-graders-common-core-homework-remove-two-rights-bill-rights

Perhaps we really do need to take a closer look at who
is actually representing us?
Foxy,
If you had that interest whilst the ALP was in power you'd find the present situation frivolous.

Crachup, further evidence that compulsory voting should be removed so the people WHO CARE Woild be the ones to have the say.

rehctub,
I have constantly said that public servants should not be allowed to vote full stop !
And, if we had a non-military national service those who have served will be way more enlightened voters than those who only went to Uni.

Here in NSW, I take more interest at the political going on's at the Corruption Inquiry that what happening in the Federal or State Parliament. This week down at the ICAC we have had a couple of ex-primers giving evidence, try to paint themselves as the "good guys" in all this, and for this weeks finale we have had that Eddie Obeid look alike, Liberal Senator, and mate of Abbott's, Arthur Sinodinos, giving evidence. Foxy spoke of his $200,000 pay for 26 hours work.this is not disputed by Sinodinos, a man you would find, whilst accepting this pop star pay rate, being opposed to a 37c/hour pay rise some of the poorest members of the community.
Some people in politics, like Sinodinos, harbor a grotesque sense of entitlement, and this can and does extend to criminality, as it did for Labor's Obeid, Macdonald, and Thomson, not to mention other Liberal and Labor politicians in the state who shortly may get their comeuppance before that very same inquiring body. I always warn people if you vote Labor or Liberal don't always expect to get who you are voting for, you might vote for Jesus but get the Devil.

If you want to stack the deck why allow politicians a vote. Or known Greens

paul..PLEASE MAKE THAT A SPECIAL TOPIC
MY POINT BEING WE EACH SHOULD BE DOING the things we need doing
[keeping the barstewards honest]..BY ASKING THE Questions..on tape

IE...please note/todays efforts

http://rss.infowars.com/20140403_Thu_Alex.mp3

POINT BEING THE FACTS ARE KEPT SECRET..off media talking points
BUT YOUR JOHNNY ON THE SPOT..live TAPE RECORDINGS ON line?
asKING the right question/before the media[change can come in a big way.

i have a PLAN..FOR THE GREENS TO TAke qld
BUT ITS NEEDS many doing simply what your doing.[but on the record]
like they divided here in qld..the discussions for budget..so media couldnt attend them all

but with a unity ticket
tO KEEP THE PARTIES HONEST..[REPRESENTING THE POEPLE AND NOT THE LOBBY]..our lobby fruit is nuthing..so forget lobby..and begin reporting..

NOTE TO ALEX..forget advertising..let US BUY IN..THEN REVEAL JUST THE FACTS*[ADVETS IS THEIR WAY]..WE GOTTA OWN/IT..To get our own up/

just the facts..exposed..can save qld
[IF THE QLD CONTAGION BEARS GOOD FRUITS..[no upper house]
NO one will have a senate..[get it?]..ANYHOW next the wasted opportunity aT UNITY AGAINST THE [PARY SYSTEM..IN WA tomorrow?]

we are fighting a system
SIMPLY TO SURVIVE THE systematized ABUSES.
ONE LISTENING..GREAT THATS A START..BUT MANY LISTENING CAN HEAR MORE[be more clearly listening then being heard.

579,
I have come to the conclusion that only 2 people in Australia should be allowed to vote, Tony Abbott and Mrs Abbott. Hummmmm... that wouldn't work, another hung parliament, the Mad Monk on one side of the chamber and Mrs Abbott's choice on the other, most likely Electricity Bill!

Crackcup, I doubt the pension would be reduced, no matter what party is in power.
Has it *ever* been reduced?
Not increasing it is possible though.

If they want to cut, they should cut the ocean of "fluff" (grants and awards to community groups, film production, festivals/events).

Stick to the absolutely essential, and let the private market deal with the rest.

Foxy, maybe selling public assets might be better, considering what poor management skills most governments have.

We only have ourselves to blame for the Tweedles.

Every election we have a plethora of parties/candidates to vote for, from all over the political spectrum.

But most of us number a Tweedle box above the line (which gives them a big fat public funding cheque for first preferences and virtually no possibility of transferred preferences).

Vote for all alternative parties *before* the Tweedles (even those you despise).
Every alternative candidate elected (even one you despise) helps chip away at the Tweedles' domination.
Let's hear some other voices!

It is not only mostly the ill informed electorate that considers the proceeds of consolidated revenue to be a basket to be plundered. Politicians also look upon this money as something to be scattered across as many of the public as possible to secure their position in power.

There is a long list of wasted resources in last week's Weekend Australian conducted under the last government running into billions, mainly caused by total ineptitude. Howard was also guilty in distributing largesse which was not appropriate.

The whole world has been living on a sea of debt and to some extent Australia has also mortgaged the future. Compared to yesteryear, many people do not realise how our standard of living has risen, yet our sense of entitlement continues unabated demanding others always pick up the tab especially in relation to social services. I am not suggesting we go back to the past, but there is a limit to what can be paid for by what comes in and the chickens have come home to roost, as Joe Hockey is trying to warn us. Let's scrap some of these expensive and inadvisable items like first home buyers and government funded maternity leave and live within our means. There are a lot of things It would nice to have the government (us the tax payers) provide depending on individual priorities, but we first have to create the wealth to do so and not borrow.

Americans Say 75 Percent of Politicians Are Corrupted,
SAY..70 Percent Use Political Power to Hurt Enemies
http://reason.com/poll/2014/04/03/americans-say-75-percent-of-politicians

Americans don’t paint a pretty picture of their public servants in the new national Reason-Rupe poll. Americans tell Reason-Rupe that 75 percent of all politicians are “corrupted” by campaign donations and lobbyists. And they say 70 percent of politicians use their political power to help their friends and hurt their enemies.

No wonder just 17 percent approve of the job Congress is doing. Or that President Obama’s approval rating is just 43 percent, with 51 percent disapproving.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10742912/Fort-Hood-gunman-was-on-a-cocktail-of-prescription-drugs.html

http://intellihub.com/alcoholic-court-stenographer-repeatedly-types-hate-job-instead-transcribing-case/

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ARTICLE1/overlooked.php

http://orwellwasright.co.uk/2014/04/03/the-us-eu-trans-atlantic-free-trade-agreement-tafta-devastating-social-and-environmental-consequences/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/if-you-do-not-conform-the-thought-nazis-will-get-you/

capitalists controling health is not the way to go
http://www.newsforage.com/2014/04/1000-day-miracle-drug-shocks-us-health.html
http://investmentwatchblog.com/paul-craig-roberts-imf-loans-will-hand-ukraine-over-to-private-banks/
its never ending..but its important that we are learning/something..to do with caring for other..HA HA HA..YEAH RIGHT IM OK..

RT
rENT IS THE BIG KILLER
IF YOU OWN YOUR OWN HOME..IT SHOULD BE EASY
BUT THE BANKERS PLAN..MANY WILL LOOSE THEIR HOMES..AND THAT OUR KIDS NEVER KNOW OWNING..ANYTHING..NOT EVEN THEIR OWN BODSIES NOR KIDS..ETERNALLY SERFS..PAYING FOR EVERYTHING THE SLAVE MASTER BEFORE NEEDED TO SUPPLY FOR FREE...welcome to pay as you go slavery.

2b..ctd

YOU WILL THANK THAT YOU WERE BORN..IN THE GOOD TIMES
CAUSE THE BAD IS GOING TO BE REALLY BAD..AND THOSE WHO COULD CHANGE THINGS..are TOO DISTRACTED..JUST SURVIING..BLAH BL;AH..NO ONE LISTENS..LESS DO ANYTHING TO END THE INSANITY.

NO ONE PARTY CAN BE TRUSTED
WAR CABINETS ARE THE WAY TO GO..
YOU SIT FOR A COURSE..THE BEST GET THE JOB..[PARTY SELECTION]

WE VOTE THE ELECT FROM THE BEST THESUS..[]COURSE RESULTS]..[THINK LIKE AN INTERNSHIP//ON EDUCATION ALLOWENCE..IE[LIKE THOSE WANTING TO GET INTO POLITICS DO A 4 YEAR COURSE..[HINT HINT]..THAT TRAINS THE NEXT GENERATION..VIA THE EDUCATION SYSTEM..

BUT ITS WASTED THOUGHT.

me me me..help me[the squeeky wheel [read lobby]..gets the grease
WE NEED TO TEACH SQUEAKY..NOT SNEAKY..STRAIGHT BAT POLITICS NO POLY TRICKS

SELF FUNDED BY OUR OWN BANK/AND TRANSACTION TAX
ALL OTHER TAXES ABOLISHED..IN TIME WE BUY OFF BIG PHARMA AND PROMOTE CURE..NOT LIFE LONG DEPENDENCE ON 100 DOLLAR PILLS

STOP TAKING THE PILLS YA DIE YA MUGS
THATS WHAT THEY WANT/WORK..WE GIVE YOU YOUR AIDS/OR HEP C DRUG..STOP WORKING WE STOP GIVING YOU A SYMPTOM Suppression..[not cure]..

think.outside/the tank..
IN 30 years we went from one case of autism..in 1800 kids
to one autism..in 68..kids[just via compulsory vaccination..of heavey metal/preservatives..[to maximise profits..EXTEND SHELF LIFE]

WE LET THEM TAKe iodine from our saly
other stuff from our bread/while hued rice causes some other sickness..[berry bury?]..etc etc..govt is about making us pay sickness bills/rent..and sin taxes..carbon tax..fees fines levies.license fees..drop them and you would welcome the pay cut

these taxes and fees are killing us as policy
HIRE IGNORANTs..GIVE EM A TITLE..AND THEY DO AS WE tell them

and that clamidia 'drug.that sloughs off the outer layer of your brain..lowers iq 15 percentile..just so you become the perfect party man[ie docile drunk..but semi skilled enough..with the right motivations

It is wasted on the automatons for Labor and their sidekicks the treacherous Greens who are shameless in defending Rudd and Julia Whatshername's big spends, but others will be interested in this independent report commenting on government wastage. I have quoted the concluding paras for interest.

<The $250bn cost of Kevin Rudd: a tale of waste and spending
HENRY ERGAS AND JUDITH SLOAN, The Australian, August 03, 2013 12:00AM

....Yet the frightening fact is that there is no sign whatsoever that Rudd has learned from the past five years' experience.

Rather, in just 37 days since returning to office, spending commitments have rained like confetti, ranging from greater funding for schools to the PNG Solution, and encompassing everything from a "jobs program" for Tasmania to stadium upgrades in Townsville, a "transformational plan" for the Cairns CBD, a beef industry exhibition in Rockhampton and more money to promote live music performances. Yesterday's economic statement makes the consequences clear: the increase in spending next year is the greatest since Rudd had his hand on the levers in 2008-09.

Tax hikes have proliferated too, including the poorly conceived and even more poorly implemented changes to the fringe benefits tax, the increase in tobacco excise and a levy on bank deposits. But, even so, the budget deficit has blown out and net debt with it: so much for fiscal consolidation, Rudd-style.

That then is Rudd: uninterested in economics, contemptuous of process, the most recent incarnation of "whatever it takes" man in a party tainted by corruption and cronyism. Yes, the Rudd circus may rise to new heights; but the costs it inflicts will only rise with it.>

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/the-250bn-cost-of-kevin-rudd-a-tale-of-waste-and-spending/story-fn59niix-1226690463570#

contd..

The authors of the report,

- Judith Sloan is Contributing Economics Editor at The Australian. She holds degrees from the University of Melbourne and the London School of Economics. She has held a number of government appointments, including Commissioner of the Productivity Commission; Commissioner of the Australian Fair Pay Commission; and Deputy Chairman of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

- Henry Ergas is Senior Economic Adviser, Deloitte, and inaugural Professor of Infrastructure Economics at the University of Wollongong’s SMART Infrastructure Facility. He headed the Secretary-General’s Task Force on Structural Adjustment at the OECD. He has taught at the École nationale de la statistique et de l'administration économique in Paris and the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. He is a lay member of the New Zealand High Court.

Good afternoon to you CRACKCUP...

I too share your concern, but for ALL our futures ? I'm probably within the same demographic as you and your wife. There are quite a few contributors to this Forum I suspect, who are in a similar position to both of you ?

My only advice, and I say this as a form of comfort and reassurance for you both; my old mate HASBEEN is pretty close to the mark I reckon. There's no doubt that Joe Hockey is delivering a 'mean' budget ? That said, I don't believe he or the LNP will do anything that will harm the aged pensioners in our community.

There will be increases in costs, there always are. But generally speaking the Treasurer will be mindful of the tremendous backlash that he and his party would receive from the electorate at large, should he adversely hit those who are the most economically vulnerable, and others who are in real fiscal peril.

I too share the absolute contempt, you harbour towards politicians ! I've uttered this before, and now once more. Any politician, whether Federal, State or Local government who breaks his/her oath of office, should receive mandatory penal servitude, for many years !

It is a fact in China, any politician found guilty of any major corrupt conduct, is shot. I'd gladly supply a round or two for the likes of Messrs Thompson and Williamson ex. of the Health Services Union. I cannot contain my absolute loathing for these two pieces of excrement.

You mob are all missing the point. You go into a great deal of detail about the symptoms and ignore the cause. I notice that imaginary friend god was thrown into the mix.

There is certain amount of truth when the “occupy movement” state’s “we are the 99%”.

To resolve the issue you must follow the MONEY and only the money. Everything is ancillary and incidental.

Crackcup is worried that his pension will be cut in the name of austerity despite the contradictory spending. A valid fear I concede!

The solution is simple; Productive wealth must be shared proportionally, were the creators of wealth receive more than the takers of wealth.

The 90% (I would not go as far as 99%) would be better off, and the top 10% would get a lot less but a sufficient share.

Change this and only this and you change everything, even god.

Crackcup’s pension would be secure!

The job description for MP or Senator is that they are to be engaged by the people of a particular district to represent their interests to the state and it's bureaucracy. How has it come to pass that the elected representatives are aligned with the state and acting in it's interests ahead of those of their constituents?

Hit post too soon.
The social contract is between the state and the people, NOT between politicians and the people. We surrender to the state a monopoly on the use of force and agree to limits on certain other freedoms in exchange for provision of services such as hospitals, roads, an army etc etc
We surrender nothing to politicians, they're supposed to work for us, the idea of national political parties following a set platform and applying it to all electorates is completely at odds with democracy.

Dear Jay,

<<The social contract is between the state and the people,>>

Excuse me, what contract? I haven't signed any!

<<We surrender to the state a monopoly...>>

Is that so? I never surrendered, they just take what they like by force, as they did for the last millennia without asking mine or your permission.

anyhow crack-up..if your looking for hope
that things will soon be getting better
i feel i got my reply to 178808..post
[see the snowden thread]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6152&page=0#178808

and here was i trying to get paul motivated
and being roundly ignored..its so insane..us beating them

lol

ITS FUNNY..HOW..folks know we live..in amazing times
like just a day ago..the queen of the common wealth/met with the pope
[7 th pope apparently..but the point is the father gave the ptince georges grandma..a lapis laxuri..orb..
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRFDqqM_WMKfjx03n4Mecu03xAPewGwJ1n_dQHoa6n34KFPwQcmMuo4dFY

[and i been fact checking up on it]
what does the words say?
what is a sharp cross
it looks like malteaze/cross
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=+stone+orb+topped+with+a+sharp+cross

its has high..'sign'..signification..hrh may not know..
but doth phylum even know the meaning of the 3 coins.[orbs]?

anyhow/quote/link

<<>.For example, if we gaze on the Lapis Lazuli-orb of Gabriel, the Divine Messenger, a sacred oracle opens through the lineage of the wisdom traditions, and as though from God’s voice itself. This oracle moves us through the sands of time, to a far distant memory of the Atla Priests of Atlantis, through to the Ancient Egyptian Gods, then on to the Greek and Roman Gods and Goddesses. After a period of darkness, the line once more reappears through the light of Carl Jung’s extraordinary work, through the aspects of the 12 Archetypes he brought to our attention.

You will also see against the orb, a sacred sigil that contains, in geometric form, the essence of the Angel’s heart. Sigils are ancient mystical symbols that hold the force of an entity. In the second oracle the ANGEL HEART SIGULS, the Angels of Atlantis have given us powerful teaching about the heart as the seat of the soul.>>..

http://www.mindbodyspirit.co.uk/blog/the-angels-of-atlantis-stewart-pearce/

http://www.mindbodyspirit.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/AHS-Gabriel-708x1024.jpg

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/queen-gives-honey-to-pope-who-has-gift-for-prince-george-504197

How about Labor's lead candidate in today's WA Senate election Joe Bullock, a convicted criminal, who doesn't like his running mate Louise Pratt, he described Pratt as a "poster child". Where does The Labor Party get these wombats from, The Liberal Party?

you have/good reason/..for concern/crakken
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/imf-shock-treatment-ukraine-collapse-standard-living/
its standard..opperation/procedure..globally
http://www.dekritischebelegger.nl/grondstoffen/goud/eu-wil-uw-kluizen-kraken/
[its not/us.,.its the imf/austerity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJEuXFdjXkU
its unbelievable the ideas the capitalists seek to steal/from the people..talk about Ukraine/facing the executioner..[find the asset sell it off/then spend half the profits fixing the pipeline/for those who bought it 'run down'..but have bound govts hands..to give half it back..fixed up..to those who formented the uprising..to steal/the public utility cash cow plum
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=16188

so next/they cut pensions/we know the austerity game
http://investmentwatchblog.com/u-s-to-pay-off-public-debt-5747-years-at-100-dollars-per-second/
<<>>Eventually, it will happen, and what elections will tell us simply is how long it will take.>>
http://rinf.com/alt-news/latest-news/urging-new-path-forward-tens-thousands-demand-end-eu-austerity/
<<>.There are a lot of resources..to be developed in Ukraine,..and there are also quite a few companies..who have assets they cannot development,..primarily due to lack of funding or marginal management teams...These companies will now be seeking to transact with larger players...lol..[preventing/the funding]
http://xrepublic.tv/node/8304

Historically, the most significant red flag for new investors in Ukraine has been working with the government. It's too early to determine whether that will change. Bureaucracy generally kills deals more than anything, and foreign companies coming in will never be able to understand how the bureaucracy works.
http://thehill.com/293919-obama-signs-stock-act-step-back
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/ukraine-fascist-coup/
The smart investor will employ capital through a Ukrainian private entity to maximize investment dollars. Western management teams, without help from local partners, won't be able to operate in this venue even if they are top-notch managers.>>

cause/we bought/them all out?
its called..the enron-isation..of the world
[simply capture energy/production\distribution/billing rights etc..then bleed us dry..[plus carbon tax on top/plus service fees \;service charges/levies/infrastructure/spending[jobs jobs jobs/for thugs to/further bleed you dry..by guilt..and lie

they play the same game/with carbon credits
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16076&page=0

Dear Shocker,

I couldn't agree with you more - regarding having
alternative voices.

We need to have alternative voices running for office.
But how on earth will they even get to first base
when it costs so much to be even in the running?

The major parties with all of their financial supporters
and affliations have it all over the other guys.
Still, I guess we have to keep demanding better than what
we're currently getting that's for sure.

OUG – you are a wealth of information and knowledge. I personally find you a hard read because of the quantity and complexity of your writing, source reference and musings. I don’t however find any definitive opinion you share as a solution to Crackcup’s concerns which as you rightly point out, is global. Do you (or anyone else for that matter) have a solution that could be understood by the masses of this planet, however fanciful?

dear producer..we owe too much debt..pure and simple
the debt..has grown so by we will all go bust to pay it but debt wasn't earned by spending..others money..but by bankers creating it/by tricky accounting..

if you say to them..you already received..something
[and we do on a loan document[we say we received..say x]
by us saying yes we received it/it was created/put on the books..and dually the credit arrives..to your debt.

thats how govts been 'money printing..'
thats how bankers can bail-out govt..to bailout the banks.insurance underwriters etc[that debt cant ever be repaid[then add in interest]..that needs others to/assume a debt/but those in the know default]

then the bankers hyper-inflate..the latest debt away
but this time..the hyper inflation/gets compounded by falling wages= more default[thing is by leveraging paper/they devalued the value[lawful tender/the only constituted legal tender=coin/forst they debased the gold from our coin

then the silver then the copper now soon even the cupranickle
[my cure is restore the traditional values back into the coin

when the bankers stole the gold/silver etc that was a crime called treason[its called debasement/high treason]..see all coin has on its face hrh face..and her honor is inpuned..and our real values have been subsumed

my quick fix..is to return coins to the true values
[as if still in gold or silver]..the coins..face value is simply upped by adding two 0's..

[it works/thus..govt borrows its last borrowing..in paper dollars
then divides the coins..to its people..[i reason everyone gets say 200 dollars in coin/courtesy of the wikiseed/[seed from the tree of life: sun treaty]..or for other reason

so govt owes the fed..say..2.3.000,000,000,00
2 point 3 billion..[debt..in notes..]..gives
[promises or whatever..to give it as sum certain coin]..
then re-bases [restores]..[re inflates]..the true values back into coin..[by deeming each coin to have dollar parity..of debt paper$1..=..1 cent in coin

anyhow the 2.3 billion debt
becomes 230 billion to repay all our out standing debts in full
govt returns to issuing its own coin as needed..and we begin consuming
[its a bailout of the living/not incorporated/ltd/inc's..[ie/the dead..who seek to suck us dry.]

we formed govt/banking control over busness licence/for our protection
but the dead corpse//killing us by endless too big to fail bailout/is smothering the living with the burdensd of the dead

[ie personum created undse4tr govt act/thus subject to the act
no act can affect the living..only these paper state created fictions/under a quasi form of contract law

but lawfull contract/needs informed concent
and when people get angry how they been dead on paper fictions
that they werethe only real value/and govt devalued us all into landless peonfood or endebited serfdom..they wil get even angrier

i put it to rudd but it got lost in translation/he decided to simply give us a grand..when in coin 200 can become 20,000..[like when we rounded off 1 cents 2 cents 5 cents..we simply pay..to the next dollar]

so our debts in fiat get fixed/payed off in full
and the treason of debasing the queens coin..is restored

that small change alone can clear the debt
but cashes us up against the hyper inflation the system built in
understand..that..the value of a home..in silver orgold hasnt changed accross time[but promise to pay paper..stole everything..and all we got left is debt.

they were called bank bills
you know what a bill is?
same same..but thats why coin..has hrh face..on it.

we all know whats coming..its kissmet./karma/strictly accounting
the choice will be do we solve it by honor..or rioting hanging and tossing the tossers off buildings.

govt need not even borrow..ot simply needs say 5/cent=5 dollars
10 cents=$10/20cents=$20..50cent=$50/41/coin=100%..$2/coin=$200
and hrh coin saves the common wealth/yet again[she does treaty with Vatican bank/wikiseed[se rev 22;2]..seed from the tree of life/for healing the nations.[done].i wikiseed=$1=1 cent..its what coins represent/that gives the value/as if really gold/as if really silver.

foxey/quote..<<..We need to have alternative voices running for office.
But how on earth will they even get to first base
when it costs so much to be even in the running?>>

my plan was to run a tafe course/to train polititions
in all aspects of governing/and as part of the course/final-test
you run for govt..[but in the lead up..we do all the things..a serious campain would need do[pre poll/figure out preferances..print how to vote..stuff form your own poliucy etc

if itsd donr right..you get austudy..to run the whole thing/we
the course/take's us arrounf groups people stages meetings etc/we need get away from where the 2 parties pick people they got the dirt on.

so all pollies must do the tafe course
and we sort it out together..even teaching how to get the party nomination

[much like the girls handbag/brigade-club did under whats her name?

only we do it for anyone..
then prove we got a better result.

OUG – With all due respect I doubt very much if the masses would understand!

Debt can take many forms, correct me if I am wrong the debt you refer to is specifically and only that of currency (money)?

I am of the opinion that a monetary system only has value when it is based on a productive system.

To illustrate my point, if the world was populated only by bankers, politicians, advertisers, celebrities, sports persons and god bothers. If they invented a monetary system it would have no value as they have nothing to base that value on. They produce nothing of substance that they can buy and sell!

The great unwashed get angry in isolation all the time but this has not and does not prompt a change in the system. When there is anger on a mass scale the type of change required still does not materialise. The 99% achieved very little! The majority of individuals will always look after number one.

Polly school is not a concept I have been presented with in the past.

Who would teach the teachers? Don’t you think you would run the risk of instead of having white dogs with black spots, we would produce black dogs with only one white spot?

I personality would like to see public servant school and have as much representative diversity as possible. We also need to evolve a system that does not allow a minority to achieve a majority.

I would value you opinion on my original post in this thread.

producer/you only have
potential values/until you produce..a product
once you have..that product..its the value/if you monetized/that value..in 1966..you would have..that value..in silver value[in silver value..the values remain..relatively stable/predictable..]

in those days..im sure you will recall/for one pound..you got 4 pieces of fish/chips for four/and a huge box of chocolates/for mum[i recall because i did it]..in 1967..it would have cost two bucks.

i still hold..a few pounds worth of shillings[silver]..they are sterling grade silver[i bought them over the last few decades..and have watched the price in dollars go..up to 9 dollars..[for the round 50 cent piece]..the only silver-coin/minted in sterling silver/thus still today valued well above face value.

but the next minting of 50 cent pieces..was in nickle[and in nickle prices currently..a 50 cent coin holds 50 cents of nickle

a paper dollar[had we still paper dollars]..we have a picture/on paper
no additional value/unlike coin..but if you got pre 1966/coin..you got real silver 'value'

its a store of real value/ditto the gold coins..[notes were only a promise to/pay weight in gold or silver coin]..it was actually printed on our old.[commonwealth/notes]..this note may be redeemed in silver/at any common wealth bank

cant you see that they cant change the real values of gold nor silver
but have deflated the paper/plastic/credit etc..values..by oversupply/but because everyone has done it..we are fast sinking the coin age values into nothingness/the next hyper infation will steal the last values from our coin

invest in nickle..coin
cause you can bet there is soon a flood of paper
once they start spending all that bailout..credit.

maybe if i try to reply your questions

<<..Debt can take many forms,..correct me if I am wrong the..debt you refer to is specifically and only that of currency..(money)?>>

not really only money/but credit/bonds..all paper instruments
[like paper gold]..only real gold and real coin..represent rereal value

[so i thought/what is worth more than the gold/silver..to return the values back into our queens coin..[and realized the fruits..promised man/by revelation..22;2..''leaves'..[how the wise men saw paper money]..for the healing of the nations[having 12 fruits]..

govt just need begin with coin based values restored

continues

hemp seed has 38,000 'fruits..for industry..[our wikiseed/wikigeld..notes..each contain/[bear]..a living seed..plus permission to grow thyne own pound of the seed..[for industry for food..restoration/debt settlement rebuilding repair insurance..anything needing value/storing adding value]..

hemp seed makes anything from medicine/to fibre to oil to hydrocarbon/fertilizer[38,000..passable industry or survival..value]

ie one pound of seed gives 200 mil of hemp oil/grow locally
anyhow the simple version is return the value back where curreently there is over supply/deflating values

<<>.I am of the opinion that a monetary system only has value when it is based on a productive system.>>

[the minimum value of coin=its metal content/but wikiseed/wikigeld..restores value to the paper[heck old bank notes were even/printed on hemp-paper[part of the reason we got a drug 'war'..is so we cant fake money with hemp paper[but notes are plastic now

<<>>If they invented a monetary system..it would have no value as they have nothing..to base that value on.>>

the value..lies in our promise to work/for their paper/to repay the debt..[think of it like say ,momey is the hair/on your head[as your the only one who has your 'hair'..your the boss]..you lend me 3 hairs..but to pay the intrest..i can only ho to you/or steal hair [read monbey]..you lent to others at intrest.

this means we have an inflation rate
[thats supposed to reveasl how much value has been thieved from our queens coin..even then its cheated..as true inflation isnt measured[too much is excluded/like fuelhousing etc..

as rockafella said..give me control of money
and i care not who makes the law

<<..They produce nothing of substance that they can buy and sell!>>

yes they do..they tie kids.into debt/from education.easy credit.minimum re payment..etc.then lend themn bacvk their own super at interest..[its such sa clever scam/complusory super so they can only survive on credit/lend them back the money you stole from their wage

its too clever by far
for them to have a 'credit' rating they must pay..or cops come and take you to jail[but govt alone can make the value[see federal constitution..number 115..[nothing but gold/silver coin=lawful tender for payment..of debts]

please ask the questions again

OUG – Surely it’s the opposite. Money has potential value and that value can only exist once productivity has taken place. I refer you to the example I made in my previous post.

In 1996 I lived in the middle of the Nullarbor Plain and there was no fish and chip shop so I couldn’t say. In 1967 I lived in Nhill and I preferred Chiko Rolls.

Back in those days the proportion of productive people where far greater that the non-productive ones. There was less demand on the productive sector as the demand and proportion of the non-productive sector was smaller, less demanding and received a lower proportional share of productive wealth.

The monetary value of gold and silver is artificial and only reflects the value of productivity it can purchase and man’s illogical desire to own it. Its real value is its use as a metal in productivity. Gold and silver would have no value to the non-productive world I described in my previous post.

This leaves the question, why has the price of fish and chips inflated so much since 1966? The answer is simple, we have a greater proportion of non-productive individuals demanding more from a lesser proportion of productive ones. The producer has to produce more to pay for the artificial and inflated demands of the non-productive sector. The producer of hair is not the boss and has to supply those who do not suffer alopecia who choose to shave their heads.

Debt is created artificially, not produced. You can have a bucket load of debt metaphorically, but you can never have a bucket of debt. It is merely one of the ruses that enable a non-productive parasite a means to accrue productive wealth.

I do not disagree with most of what you say with the exception your perspective is taken half way up the ladder. I believe you need to go to the bottom of the ladder, pre money and when gold and silver had only bling value.

producer/quote..<,..OUG..Surely it’s the opposite..Money has potential value..>>..

its an abstract/concept..people accept it as value...thus it has value/where-as others money..has less..easily/accepted exchange value

[but iTS A CON..a trick]..where a magic man..shows you..imagined/future value/then replaces the value with imagined values..and the dumbfounded audience..applauds..till that day they find-out the trick stole everything they valued...[i talk of the silver values of the shillings..i gave up/weekly..to super/that i got back as devalued dollars]..2000 seemed so much money when i began working]..but now is a weeks wage

think like germany..hyperinflation away your moNEY..IN A BLINK OF AN EYE..IT COST TWO BILLION REICHE/DEUTCHE MARKS TO BUY A LOAF OF BREAD

yeah great your going to get a lump sum..one far off day
but by then inflation has deflated it..into nothing/but less than one weeks pay/BUT IN THE MEANTIME..you went broke paying the intrest,..on your own money/lent back to yo AT INTEREST

please note .credit card interest hasnt fallen
in fact..many are finding ways..to charge that rate

<<..that value can only exist..
once productivity has taken place.>>

SURE//BUT ITS A chain..of productivity..each adding value/up the chain
the artist..needs buy/paint/canvas brushes..[note..hemp seed can made them all]..before he can recoup the cost..to return extra value/

but before them someone needs get the pigments/oil hairs..tc
ITS A CHAIN OF VALUE ADDING..thaT was resolved long-ago..[its summed up..simply as work adds value..[its the work that adds the value]..

ITS OUR PROMISE TO REPAY[BY WORK]..THAT IS THE SECURITY/VALUE.

and work..[WAGES]..ISNT INCOME..ITS WAGE
but share dividend..CAPITAL GAIN..or rent or interest is income..but the same deceived..think wage is income..[thus THEY IGNORANTLY applied..[BEGGED/in writing..[signed..it into law..THUS MADE A CONTRACT,,to become a 'Person'/under the TAXATION-[INCO[LOL]..TAX ACT

IN fact..[they were right royally..conned or rather pressured..into all of it really]..[no informed consent..just/so the boss can pay their wages as if..income/when true income is the profit he made from their work[adding the value]..its sick..but ignorance of the law is no excuse for ignorance]

the world has become a place for slaves
to slave from rented diggs..into EARLY..[and soon to be]..rented grave

2b ctd

<<.Back in those days the proportion..of productive people where far greater that the non-productive ones.>.

AGREED/MORE.were value adding/by working
ADDING VALUE/RATHER THAN COMMISION/'SERVICE'-FEES/

govt did much..things cost the price..of production[raw material was dirt cheap]

<<..Gold and silver would have no value,,to the non-productive world I described in my previous post.>>

how about as decoration..[JEWELRY]..[ELECTRICAL CONECTIONS]..OR HEALTH..[TEETH/NOT MADE FROM MERCURY AMALGAM
OR Industry or as symbolic.[WEDDING BANDS]

IN THE PAST TIMES MAKING A SILVER SPOON WAS AS SIMPLE AS MELTING DOWN A FEW ACTUAL SHILLINGS..thats how the wikiseed/wikigeld money works too/as a raw material to add value into/by refining it into bread/food fuel fiber etc

INFLATION..<<..we have a greater proportion of non-productive individuals demanding more from a lesser proportion of productive ones.>>

NO WE HAVE..chasnged monetary policies[bankers are colluding now to use our money intrest free/lower intrest..means theIR GETTING OUT MONEY FOR FREE[WELL BELOW INFLATION DEFLATING THEIR INHERANT..stored-values even further/down

if/your..'hair'..was money[dont mean you value my hair/the same value
even the libor exchange rates are fixed..to gain maximum advantage for the banks[the bankers wont save us..they..hide their wealth away.in tax free havens..TRUSTS..ETC..BUT IN TIME WILL GET CAUGHT BY SOME OTHER 'BAIL-IN'..washingh clean their filthy paper


<<>.you can never have..a bucket of debt...It is merely one of the ruses..that enable a non-productive parasite..a means..to accrue productive wealth.>>..agreed

<<>>your perspective..is taken half way..up the ladder....I believe you need to go..to the bottom of the ladder,..pre money and when gold and silver..had only bling value.>>..

i seek..to have..work..be self rewarding..those with working skills deserve a reasonable standard..of living[and those wanting to work/need easy available license..and material/with which to work.
[restore true values..to the workers..and health/wealth can only accumulate..into/product.

OUG – Good Morning

I believe you have descended a couple of rungs down the ladder. Let’s see if I can get you to the bottom. At that point perhaps there is a simple solution to Crackcup’s dilemma.

You describe money as an “abstract concept” and “a con” with an “imagined value” that “dumfounds the audience”. I agree whole heartedly.

A chain that adds value is productivity. You have no argument from me on that point.

“The world has become a place for slaves”. This has been the case for a long time it is just covert in our time because of money. The strip system, the pyramids and the cotton fields are examples of honest slavery. Monetary debt as you rightly point out is a covert form of slavery.

Your closing comment:

“i seek..to have..work..be self rewarding..those with working skills deserve a reasonable standard..of living[and those wanting to work/need easy available license..and material/with which to work.[restore true values..to the workers..and health/wealth can only accumulate..into/product.”

I agree 100%. Although shorter isn’t it the same as:

Productive wealth must be shared proportionally, were the creators of wealth receive more than the takers of wealth.

Although totally impractical and I am not suggesting this is a solution, what would happen if we took money out of the global system. This would mean trade would still exist but the way it is done would change. Hypothetically what services would no longer be required? A complex society would still require some non-productive services to function such as health, education, security and a just system of law.

What say you?

productive/said..[re..the hair-shavers..[money-printers?]

<<..who..choose/to shave..their heads.

<<..Debt is..created artificially,..not produced.>>

things..can be taken/many ways..
they..'produced'..the fiction..of promesary-money
/that allowed us..to hyper produce/EVOLVE..to where we now are..

[and the usual fix for wealth....[now]..IS BOMB THEM..[US]..
BACK INTO POVERTY..[stonier-age/rage]..THEN Inflate the money..by shortening/supply..inflate/debt..[DILUTE/IT..[WATER IT DOwn]..into thin air..dilute/pollute/PROSTITUTE..substitute.

then..[loot..the last drags]..and..then..build it..all over again

SO/FAR..its been/worth..the cost..[HAS BEEN..PRODUCTIVE]..IN THAT IT GOT US..TO WHERE WE NOW..ARE..[ever reducing..value/dividend]....EVER/BIGGER DEBT.

from here..its all down..hill/empty shops with no or minuscule..real asset or value..closing mega factories/landlords..and property will be..the next bubble/bursting/.then auto's..art other assts..till we find..we cant eat..coin..NOR PAPER/BUT YEARN..FOR..the..SEED/THAT CAN MEET..*any need.

its..not going..to be..pretty..[but look..if we open/the shops
get rid of..the death taxes and sin taxes/sukking-up..ever more..of our time/labor..[ie all taxes/service fees..etc paid to govt/GONE\

then suddenly..it wont collapse..cause..we got the cash flow/credit capactity..[the mean's/and way..to pay..[IN-FULL]..all debt.

no fault DEFAULT..[BY OMNIPOTENT/MIDDLE-MEN]..
ISNT AS GOOD..AS NO DEFAULT..AS A SURETY

I PUT UP 3 WAYS..TO GET THERE..or rather stay..more comfortablY
were we are/with only better times ahead..one or all..is like doubling down..the surety..in-sure assuraNCE.

revalue coin..[half-way if you must]..just add one 0..
instead of two..SO 5/CENT=..50..cent[not $5]....that still goes a long way..to paying the rent..or/food..[but with..two 0/s..we KNOW ALL RENTS WILL GET PAID..AND SOME WILL RISK..STOCKING UP A SHOP

[LOOK WE KNOW..IN THE END..THE MONEY-CHANGERS ARE EXPERT
AT GETTING OUR MONEY..ok so..[we*]..anti-up..the kitty by a fair return dividend[lest we forget the commies got shares when they went bust/

but capitalism..wants to kill the lot of us/take our savings..leaving us paper propmise shares[talk about flooding the mnarket[mugs thionking the banks vaults hold anything/will BUY UP OTHERS PAper[swop it for a tv like they ussr..DISOLUTION


<<..You can have a bucket load of debt metaphorically, but you can never have a bucket of debt. It is merely one of the ruses that enable a non-productive parasite a means to accrue productive wealth.>>

IM SORRY I CANT COMPREHEND..HOW FILLING UP AN EMPTY BUCKET WITH TRUE GOD GIVEn wealth..[seed from the tree of life]..a promise god gave unto all mankind..relates

there is a whole..in the bucket..
.and if we can buy..off..the money-changers
[hole*..and make/them..wHOLE]..[even holy]..then..lets do it

edited/for context..from..[we*=me.]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16188&page=4

OUG – I know it will take you out of your comfort zone, but again I ask.

Although totally impractical and I am not suggesting this is a solution, what would happen if we took money out of the global system. This would mean trade would still exist but the way it is done would change. Hypothetically what services would no longer be required? A complex society would still require some non-productive services to function such as health, education, security and a just system of law.

Don’t forget there is no money in this hypothetical world.

What say you?

Perusing the responses to my Article, I have noted many references and theories regarding the future direction of our "Democracy"

I was going to contribute further with a "flowery" continuation of the subject discussion, however I have decided instead to put what I consider to be the problem in simple terms,...Greed is the overall enemy of this and every other so-called Democracy in the world today.

GREED is an institution practised by the ones at the very top of the heap, trickling down through the masses to the lower socio-economic groups that are rapidly increasing in number.

Why do I say that?...well let`s look at the State and Federal Governments in general, they have been wringing their hands in mock concern that the coffers are nearly depleted, so we have to suffer drastic cutbacks etc,...yet during this same period of fiscal restraint ( and pseudo concern ) both groups have manipulated themselves a massive and obscene pay increase!

To add insult to injury, they ( the fiscally priveleged ) are off on their whirlwind World Tours, taking with them some of the wealthiest business people in the country,( and I wonder if they are financed by the Taxpayers ) all in the name of selling ( the concept ) of Australia overseas.

I would think that Joe Hockey should be encouraging tight fiscal restraint, and setting some sort of example to the community instead
the old "nudge, nudge, wink, wink, ...say no more!"

Will this subterfuge ever end?

Crackcup – Your first sentence has a fundamental error. The Coalition received 45.55% of the vote yet control 60% (90 seats) in the House of Representatives. THIS IS NO DEMOCRACY! With the exception of Tasmania no parliament in this country governs with a majority.

Greed is a human condition that afflicts us all too some degree. The condition varies depending on personality and opportunity and is uncontrollable.

What do you suggest is the solution to your/our dilemma?

crackers/quote..<<..Greed is the overall enemy of this..and every other so-called Democracy in the world today>>

well summed up..[2B..CTD]

producer..DUE.TO POST LIMITS HERE/AND OTHER TOPC
your LATEST..reply is here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6293&page=8

I SEEM TO/RECALL SOME YANKI SAYING ONCE..'WE' ARE A REPUBLIC..NOT A democracy...[well australia is a colony..run by governer-generals[ir run by armed forces..under threat of judiciary /statuted law..[of the high seas/and maritime laws..[anyhow i too revile demonic auto-crazey]

neverthe less as craker say..the key ISSUE=GREED
WHICH YOU PRODUCER..REPEAT..<<..Greed is a human condition that afflicts..us all too some degree.>>

THATS LIKELY TRUE..[AS LIFE GAS TAUGHT US THE EARLY WORM..GEts the worm/but this was only by primitive fears/childishness inducing selfishness..or even penus envey..[we are borN INTO AN AGE OF PLENTY/SO MUCH SO THE ONLY POWER SOME HAVE LEFT..is PATHETIC POWWR TO HURT OTHERS FOOLISH/ENOUGH..TO COME INTO CONTACT.WITH THEIR OFFICIAL WARRENT/LICENCE...[DAMM CAPS]

,,..<<..The condition varies depending on personality and opportunity and is uncontrollable.>>..IT COULD BE CONTROLLED..but police are too busy chasing kids for smoking pot..to policing the safety..of your super..or how much some have got.

like..in my perfect world..police stop/would only occurs..for saftey
and any danger results not in a fine.punishment..but by the cop issuing A REPAIR/EVEN REPLACEMENT..[DAMAGES.. ORDER..[THAT PAYS for legal/safe SOLUTIONS/TO IMMEDIATE PROBLEMS/or even buys a new car/REPAIRS A BROKEN HOME/HEALS BROKEN PEOPLE/INSTANTLY..effortlessly instantly..there and then..the 'fine; would be repaying..the order..interest free from income stream.

ie i want to trust police to punish..on the spot
that if arrested..the proof is presented..and neutral parties check/the right thing was done/THE OFFICER CAN ORDER LIKE A JUDGE ORDERS/THAT'S THEN REVIEWED..by courts..[even jail..or judge summery by jury..a cop must be a peace mAKER/NOT JUST POLICING POLICY/A COP HELPS FEED/HOUSE EDUCATE IDENTIFY..ANYTHING A MOTHER OR PRIEST WOULD COULD SHOULD DO

<<.SOLUTION.>>?
EMPOWER AND SUPPORT OUR SERVANTS
GIVE THEM THEIR SHARE OF HEAVENLY..REWARD..WHILE LIVING
NOT SAY A FEW NICe words over their grave./while they themselves suffered..Silently..died alone...[THIS EARTH..IS OUR HOME/RESPECT HER/HERE..she,IS ALL WE GOT.]

OUG – As I said previously you are a hard read so if I get things a bit wrong forgive me!

A world without money would have to resort to a barter system. I agree but I was more interested in your opinion as to what services would no longer be required.

In the absence of a monetary system those who don’t produce would have no natural income. They would have to re-educate, reskill, become producers or have an occupation that a producer is prepared to pay for with produce. A non-producers income would not continue as a matter of course, as you imply. Payment for services could never exceed production and debt would not exist. There is not a system of promissory notes (money) to support these two conditions.

Hypothetically we both know this scenario is impossible. It does illustrate debt and payments exceeding production cannot exist without money.

All too often we see the monetary system controlling the value of production. The point I am trying to make is that it should be the reverse. Production should control the value of money. To eliminate monetary slavey and increase productivity the actual producer should receive a greater portion of the productive value than the non-producer.

I would say: Empower and support our producers, don’t take more than your share.

With regard to greed: Police should not have the power to punish on the spot. They sole responsibility should be to the community they serve. I believe communities should be allowed limited autonomy to meter out justice to members of that community. To curb vigilantism autonomy should be with the oversight of a cost effective judiciary that is timely, grounded in the expectations of the community. I agree timely reparation and replacement is a just penalty in many situations.

I do like:
“Serve only the deserving, not the self-serving.”

Producer/OuG:

We need a level playing-field. The incomes that are being handed out to MANY Political and business upper echelon is now at an obscene level.

There is no balance at all when measuring financial reward for work carried out. The old saying: "If you pay peanuts, then you get monkeys!" is laughable. We are paying these people big bikkies and we still have monkeys, ( and let`s note what monkeys are best known for, sitting in trees masturbating!)

If I sound angry,...I am, because I am sick of hearing two-faced Politicians promising the world to get elected, and then thumbing their noses at the voting public, safe of course in the knowledge that all they have to do is sit on their blocks and agree with their boss, and in return not only reap a lavish income, but after serving a few years comatose on their bench, have a break-down or pack up and retire to civilian life with the obscene Parliamentary Superannuation that falls into their laps!

If any one of them was genuine in wanting to help the economy, they would be pushing for a Price and Wage control package ( but that of course could affect them ), and tackling many of the "special" deals handed out to the more affluent in our community, such as Negative Gearing and the like.

Politically, we should have first past the post elections, and when an elected member dies, resigns or gets jailed for fiddling, the next member with the highest votes at the time of the Election should then take up the vacant post,....imagine how much money would be saved then by unneccesary Bi-Elections.

I am sorry to say that over the last 60 years I have witnessed our country and the majority of its population, slowly decay to what it has now become, a present day generation of greedy, immoral and irresponsible citizenry (there are some exceptions, but it is a numbers game anyway, and the most numbers win! ).

I feel very sad for the children that will inherit this growing mess!

pro/quote..<<>.In the absence of a monetary system>>

im not saying..no money[im saying revalue our coin/issue money thats a promise to pay..in living seed/from the tree of life[we cant live without a fair store of value[read money]

no money..means its over/thats how hyperinflation begins[recall/when petrol jumped form under 20 cent/to over 80 cents[that was a simple 4 PERCENT..REDUCTION/OF Supply[THATS HOW BANKERS MAKE HYPER INFLATION..[Artificial fiscal shortage/now we know any 'shortage..is the lie

<<..those who don’t produce..would have no natural income.>>

natural/income?[govt payment?]
no payment..no way..minimum govt payment/3 feeds per day a safe place to sleep[in jail]

we not they..<<..would have to re-educate,..re-skill,
become producers..or have an occupation that a producer is prepared to pay for with produce.>>

TRAINING..ISNT ROCKET SCIENCE
FIRST FIND YOUR TALENT..THEN FIND OIUT HOW YOU CAN TURN/.THAT INTO MONEY/VALUE..[you might be a dancer/sculptor/singer landscaper hea;er/anything you got the aptitude to do..half the jobs are finding the occupation..that interests you[most jobs only seem boring/till you learn/the ropes..with respect..comes enjoyment

<<>.A non-producers income would not..continue as a matter of course, as you imply.>>

mate..in 1986..my oWN GOVT DECLARED WAR ON ME..[I refused to give anything[tax]etc..to govt to sustain/their abusive system/but yet now they hold a lien/over my home for noT PAYING THEIR REVENUE RAISING FINES[$3000..unpaid FINES GOVT STOLE my house/canceled/my license/rego..then my house..[the current system is abusive...mate its broke/a joke.

and you say i gotta support them/work for them
give my ideas skill to them..fu ck them..

yet here am i trying to save 'them'..
heck if you dont want to work..find out why/who hurt you/how

2/b..continued here
unless post limits/then..i finish it here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6293&page=8

kill the excuse..and you give us back our life

<<>.Payment for services could never exceed production>>

production/services..mate..producer/banker currently make all monery
in fact..over the last 8 years..thet trippled the ammount of money[ouT OF THIN AIR]

PLEASE DONT BE TELLING ME GOVT CANT MINT ALL THE MONEY IT NEEDS
for near nothing /now i revalued its bASE/LIVING SEED FOR FOOD/FIBER/PETEO-CHEMICAL and debt would not exist.

<<.Hypothetically we both know this scenario is impossible.>>
[YOURS OR MINE?

<<..It does illustrate debt and payments
exceeding production cannot exist without money.>>

MAYBE AT CROSS PURPOSE/but..we have become so efficient/at PRODUCTION
IF ALL OF US WERE PRODUCING DOUBLE THE CURRENT PRODUCTION/THAT 'WOERK'[SHARED EQUALLY WOULD AMMOUNT TO LESS THAN ONE HOUR 'EMPLOYMENT/PER YEAR]

TTHERE SIMPLY ISNT ENOUGH..'WORK'..FOR ALL TO GET A JOB
[WHAT DO WE DO..KILL EM?]..SIMPLY CAUSE WE CANT 'EM-PLOY'/THEM?

<<>.All too often we see the monetary system
controlling the value of production.>>

NOW GIVE THAT/BACK..TO GOVT

<,..To eliminate monetary slavery..and increase productivity..the actual producer..should receive a greater portion..of the productive value..than the non-producer...don’t take more than your share.>>

AGREED/BUT..HOW MUCH DUPLICATED WASTED OBSOLETE CONSUMERIST CONSUMPTION/IS TO MUCH?..[SEE GONE WEST]

REGARDING VIGILANTISM..NO WAY..
POLICE MUST BE Fully trusted
or why empower thugs?
with guns?

I..AGREE WITH/CRACKUP
END/THE GREED/MINIMIZE THE NEED

<<..tackling many of the "special" deals handed out to the more affluent in our community, such as Negative Gearing and the like.>>

yeah..LET Investors live without that 25 billion subsidy/cash cow
tax transactions/via a withdrawal tax/2 percent..and get rid of all THE OTHER TAXES/ESPECIALLY SIN PUNITIVE TAXES..SNEAKY CONSUMER/SERVICING BILLING TAXES

Crackcup – 99 candidates run for a seat. 98 receive 1% of the vote one Copper Read gets2% and is elected, unfortunately first past the post like the current preferential system is not representative. As mentioned previously with the exception of Tasmania no parliament in this country governs with a majority. The only system that is representative is a proportional system. You may not like what you get but at least we will get those for whom we vote.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5047#135441

Crackcup and OUG – this is part of a discussion I had with Loudmouth some time ago that is relevant to this thread.

The basic principle that guides all my thinking is without production there is nothing, I therefore link everything back to that principle. Simplistic I know and I am open to having my mind changed but nobody has succeeded yet.

Let me try and explain with a few examples:

If we all sat down and did nothing we would not survive. We must produce food, shelter and clothing to survive

If we all were very busy doing something for example counting beans, we would not survive. It is not enough that we do something, it is critical that what we do produces something that enables us to survive.

Money only has value if it is linked to productivity. If the bean counters developed a system of money and they were paid by the amount of beans they counted, it would not work because they are not producing anything that they can purchase.

If we tease this out a bit further it can be argued that the wealth of this country is directly linked to productivity. Things like mining, agriculture and manufacturing are obvious examples.

Cont.

Activities such as tourism, entertainment, advertising, law and accounting create jobs but do not produce anything within the country and therefore are non-productive activities. It can be argued that some these activities can bring wealth into the country. For example foreign tourism brings wealth to the country. If you look at the concept globally tourism is shifting productive wealth from another part of the globe, it does not create wealth. If Australia was full of local tourists all we would have is a lot of starving nomads.

I call these group parasites as they need a productive host to survive.

There are good parasites that are desirable. A healthy producer will live longer and produce more. It can therefore argue doctors, nurses and medical research are parasitic but desirable. Other desirable parasites ones that educate uphold justice (not law) and those who protect and secure. Providing we don’t get overloaded with parasites and they are the good ones, they can contribute in a positive way.

I’m going to continue the simplicity

If all income is linked to productivity and the producers are the ones that are most rewarded it will be more desirable to become a producer. It should not however be a prerequisite. If for example an individual who wants to study music and become a musician, they could draw the minimum wage but still must participate meaningfully in their community for a certain amount of time to receive it. They can then use the rest of their time to study.

As I have said previously it is critical such a scheme is controlled at a community level. This is not to say there should not be an external approval system or a degree of monitoring to give direction and avoid corruption. There may be situations where mentors live in a community to assist in establishment and transition.

There would be concerns with the corruption and waste at the little end of town and the need for it to be controlled. I think you would agree there is more waste and corruption at the big end of town

the basic principle..that guides..all my thinking..is without production..there is nothing..>>

hence/your chosen/name

<<.I therefore link..*everything*..back to that principle.>>

just as my name/alters..that i see/hear/feel
its..a life/choice..but we see so often..name changers/even on olo
i often regretted..i painted..my tag..the color..it is..but thats my/handi-cap/burden..to bare.

<<..If we all sat down..and did nothing..we would not survive.>>

agreed/but..that definition..isnt..included..in the word/production
[production..needs a prod-DUCT..to sell a product..the others NEED money/to by your pro-duct

<<..We must produce food,?..>>
when all around/us is bounty?
you grow food?[god makes the sun/RAIN/THE SEED TO GROW
WHAT HAVE YOU PRODUCED..[DID YOU PRODUCE/THE SEED?]

IS NOT PRODUCE..produce/product..of natures bounty
WHO..PRODUCED THE PROD-DUCT?

SEE HOW..CAIN/THE ONE..WHO BORE HIS FATHERS CURSE
[LOL]..to till the ground/that refused to yield[please recall..he took living seeds/killed them/by crushing/them..into flour.then half cremated/them..on fire

[this is production?]..please see how pre-pared food..allows poor producers..to make too salty/too sweet foods that are killing is[are they productive?..PRODUCING..what..heart attack..in a plastic wrap?

<<food/shelter and clothing to survive>>
we and the beasts before/us..seemed to survive..just on nature
the fittest survived..because our breeding found satisfactions in productivity/that aided our 'surviving'

but now.producing is linked to consuming
[we work..not to survive/but consume..['bosses'/masters[our betters]..have re-programed/our minds]

please..see the bones..of the point

<<..If we all were very busy..counting beans,..we would not survive.>>
<<..it is critical that what we do produces something..that enables us to survive.>>

please..able..killed one sheep..presented/the fat[a good Sheppard/puts on his lamb/not by sugary food/BUT FINDING GOOD FOOD]

OK CAIN/NO DOUBT COUNTED THE BEAN SEEDS AS HE WAS PLANNING TO 'COOK'/THEM..but who's 'productivity'..did god respect[that of a good Shepard/who even/by killing..yet..was/revealed..2b/the better carer.

<<Money only has value..if it is linked to productivity.>.

please/producer[MY NAME IS INVESTOR..[I INVESTED/EXTENSIVELY..IN 'MONEY'..know money..in fact/will give you lots more money..just for money[ie..present..to me a two dollar star note..I WILL GIVE YOU 50 BUCKS..[IF ITS SIGNED..BY THE RIGHT TREASURER..I WILL GIVE YOU 100/CASH]..SEE/WIKISEED/WIKIGELD/MING MECHANIC.

WHERE THE LINK/TO PRODUCTIVITY?

<<..bean-counters..edited..<<they are not producing/anything..that they can purchase.>>

please see..that if you want//their Beans..you need to find..what they will take..for their beans..[2B..CTD]

if they only accept/their own money..you need earn their money..from them[by producing something they will give beans or money to own

like that..new Ferrari?

<<..it can be argued..that the wealth
of this country is directly linked to productivity.>>

ok..im waiting..[lets use london-derry as the main example
no/farming mining/fields just bean counters..they have long lunches..and just talk/PRODUCE NOTHING BUT DEBT..that kills productivity/globally..YET..PER CUBIC CENTIMETER..THEY GOT MORE WEALTH THAN ALL THE ORE IN CHINA

BUT CHINA PRODUCTIVITY..HAS EARNED QUADRILLIONS..OF THEIR PAPERS
but how much more paper/promise..doth china need?..how long will they give product/for paper?

<<>.Activities[edit]..create jobs..but do not produce anything within the country..and therefore..are non-productive activities...It can be argued that some these activities..can bring wealth into the country.>>

IS THE 'WEALTH'..TRUE MEASURE OF VALUE..OR WORTH?

<<..For example foreign tourism..EDITED]..does not create wealth...If Australia was full..of local tourists..all we would have is..a lot of starving nomads.>>

PRE-THE LONDON/DERRY REJECTS ARRIVING..ON THESE SHORES/WE WERE DOING JUST FINE/NOMADICING..around aussie for 50,000 years..living of these productive lands/fruits.

the tourists..took away.our lands bounty[kiled all the fishing fromm botany bay..so now we need work for their pickled pork

<<.I call these group parasites..>>
LONDONER/COLONIZERS..YEP ME TOO

<<..as they need a productive host to survive.>>
YEP..WE THINK..WE NEED/THEIR 'PRODUCT'/PROD-UCE/BUT NEED WORK..FOR THEIR PAPER\MONEY/THEY SELL IT FOR.

<<..There are good parasites that are desirable.>>

SURE..OUR BODIES..FOR EXAMPLE..NEED THE MOLDS
BUGS WORMS..INSIDE US TO..LIVE
KILL THE BIOTA..WE DIE

<<..A healthy producer..will live longer>>
IF HE DON'T DIE..ON THE WAY/TO WORK[OR GET KILLED ON THE JOB[OR IF HE DON'T DIE FROM THE POISONS HE IS PAID RISK MONEY TO WORK WITH

<<>>and produce more

UNLESS HIS JOB IS KILLING HIM..[OR HIS JOB IS Killing]

<<..Providing we don’t get overloaded with parasites>>
IE THE BANKERS/MONEY CHANGERS//LAWYERS/BUREAUCRACY/public servants
*NOT HEALTH WORKERS..they are the good ones,..they can/do contribute in a positive way.

<<If all income is linked to productivity>>
please lets stop this..con-fusion..of wage..[productivity]..value adding..[versos]..income..[profiteering]..asset stripping

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=define+income+not+wage&
the Supreme Court has defined income so as to exclude wages.

productive seductive/quote..<<..Activities such as tourism, entertainment,/advertising,/law..and accounting..create jobs but do not produce anything..within the country..and therefore are non-productive activities.>>

putting names..on things..how is this productive
if tourism..brings a bill ghates/or some other investor[say gm/ford..or some banking institution[giving away [god forbid]..free money/who is to determine how.tourism..BOUGHT IN THAT VALUE

MANY TOURISTS..BRING IN..THEIR/CRAFT.cash/SKILLS/NEGOTIATION SKILLS
like tourist isnt..a breed or a race/..OR SEX..but the curious inventive..type/of types

what of..the entertainer who writes..a boardwalk play..or a song
thing is..the most productive inventors..APPEAR TO BE MEDITATING..on/a\[patent-right/brief..RATHER THAn PROCESS/processing..or PRODUCING..ON THE PRODUCTION LINE

TOURISM..<<..it does not..create wealth...>>
FORGIVE ME/..BUT TOURISTS SPEND..MONEY..NO DOUBT MANY GET Rich..on tourist SPENDING UP BIG..be it..on fluffy knickknacks..or floating HIGH..driving..INtp THE SKY.

<<>.If Australia..was full..of local tourists
all..we would have..is a lot of starving nomads.>>

not really..think/GREY/NOMADS\they love..eating/drinking..there is money in feeding HOUSING..AND ENTERTAINING THEM..[GLOBALLY]..MANY GET RICH/ENTERTAINING..THE MONEYED ELITES[

YES MANY TOO..WENT BROKE]

damn capitals

<<..I call these..group parasites..as they
need a productive host to survive.>>

so do producers..who want to SELL THEIR PRODUCE
or the producers..who want to sell..their MILK OR SALT..or meat

we all need productive hosts..to buy our work/trouble is scamers work has higher return/for little or no outlay..big payoff low over heads./productive?..depends WHO THEY GIVE..THE CASH TO.

<<..If all income..is linked to productivity..and the producers..are the ones that are most rewarded..it will be..more desirable to become a producer.>>

please read page 153/154..159

http://www.ghostcircle.com/ebooks/JSM_Ward%20-%20Gone_West.pdf

IM FINE..WITH..<<..draw the minimum wage..but still must participate meaningfully..in their community for..a certain amount of time..to receive it...They can then use..the rest,,of their time to study.>>

<<..it is critical..such a scheme is controlled.at a community level.>>..MONITORING THE SATISFACTION...REWARDING ACTIVITY GIVES

<<..mentors live in a community..>>
STEP TO FAR

BUT YES MENTORS[CYBER/IF NEED..BE]..<<>.to assist in establishment and transition.>>GET BOOKINGS OR MARKET THEIR PRODUCT

<<..There would be concerns,..>>FROM THE BIG-END..OF TOWN..<<...with the corruption and waste..at the little end of town..>>[WATCH THEM/NOT ME..COMPLEX

<<..and the need for it to be controlled.>>NOT THEM

<<>.I think you would agree..there is more waste..>>
LOOTED VALUES/LOST PRODUCTIVITY
AND THAT..BIG-end..has most of the..BAILOUTS/
problems LURKS PERKS..LAWYERS..sellouts,..skives..bonus

<<..and corruption..at the big end of town>>..

BUT/THEY\..GOT..LAWYERS...
[MANKINDs..biggest threat....
is a fool/protected/..by lawyers.

Producer, is art "productive"?

Did the Beatles, Alfred Hitchcock, Robert Louis Stevenson or Michelangelo help us "survive"?

Should they been growing potatoes instead?
Useless parasites!

Shockadelic – The Beatles where entertainers and produced music. Apple records also produced records!

Hitchcock – The director/producer was an entertainer as well. He produced movies!

Stevenson – the novelist produced novels!

Michelangelo – the sculptor, painter, architect, poet, and engineer of the High Renaissance produced too much to mention!

I don’t know where you get the idea that they are not producers?

However if they were all hungry the humble potato grower would be the pick of the bunch wouldn’t you say. After all they don’t call them primary producers for nothing.

Now if you said an ambulance chasing lawyer, many corporate CEO’s, consultants, lobbyists, dodgy politicians and bankers, that a different matter.

Now don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that these professions should not have a right to exist. They should not however be receiving a disproportionate share of the productive wealth as many, you must agree do.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter.

Producer & too many others appear to have no idea of the importance of management. They continually attack CEOs & others as being parasites, which just shows how dumb they are.

I have salvaged 2 companies, which were going bankrupt. One was actually trading insolvent, but no one knew, as the records were so poor. It was obvious it was losing money.

The other was losing millions, & heading the same way.

With the last, I ran it for 10 years, with after tax profits into millions, but it was broke & out of business in 2 years after I retired.

The earlier company I got to 1.2 million after tax profit in 2 years, but it only took 3 years to be bankrupt, & broken up, after I left.

It doesn't matter how good workers are, if they are not doing the right work, it is worse than useless. It is only management that can recognise a market, aim at that market, & organize the company so workers can be productive. No amount of skill or effort from staff can make any difference, if it is not directed in the right direction.

Even if workers are brilliant, & capable of running a company, it is only the management at any time that can make the thing work.

Only management can decide what to produce or supply. If they get that wrong, the company will fail.

Please stop this garbage of thinking anything but management can make a company successful, claiming otherwise is merely displaying your ignorance.

Hasbeen – Thankyou for your considered response.

I take your point however I believe you clearly have missed the one I have attempted to make.

Firstly no matter how good the manager a business will not succeed if there are not competent workers responsible for quality products and services produced efficiently. Management does not have to be separate, superior or inferior and in majority successful cases are not.

What I am saying is success is not the preserve of any one input, instead a combination of many facets.

The one thing I do say is nobody including management should be receiving a disproportionate share of the productive wealth as many are. You must agree there are many examples of this in our global society.

This phenomenon is graphically illustrated by wealth distribution and the growing gap between the rich and poor.

I do however take exception to your last sentence. I am happy for you to quote anything I write and critique it, but do not attempt to verbal me then use it to justify your comment.

I have strong but considered views. I am prepared to clarify them or change or modify those views if presented compelling evidence to the contrary

Now you are being silly Producer, most workers are not poor, in fact they are often doing better than their managers.

Back in the 70s & 80s, I had boat crew who worked reasonably long hours, at least 10 hours daily, so only a few less than me. They worked 5 days a week, not the 6 & 1/2 days I worked, but with penalty rates, took home 25% at least more than I did. In many industries it is even more unbalanced today, in favor of workers. This is even more the case if they are good competent workers.

Yes people who have proven they can make a company tens of millions a year are exceedingly well paid, as they most definitely should be. However most management are very poorly rewarded for their effort.

When one person's ability keeps a company successful, & 50 people employed, how much more than the rest would you say he is worth? So what I am saying, success or failure often depends entirely on the special skills of just one or two people, the remaining 50 employees are relatively easily replaced.

If with that person the company prospers, but without them it fails, how much is that person worth? Surely it must be quite a bit more than those who are dispensable, or replaceable.

Very often it is the owner or founder of a business. So many business fade away, when that one critical person retires. These people are worth some multiples of the rest, either as owners or managers. Many of these people have skills they are born with, which most of us could never acquire, even with a lifetime of training.

Not only management makes success, but to be more precise its Hasbeen management that makes success!
"I have salvaged 2 companies" "I ran it for 10 years, with after tax profits into millions," " I got to 1.2 million after tax profit in 2 years"
"It is only (Hasbeen) management that can recognise a market" " it is only (Hasbeen) management at any time that can make the thing work."

TALK ABOUT BEAT YOUR OWN DRUM!

Hasbeen – I tend to agree with Paul1405, your comments are a bit narcissistic.

If a conductor stood on his rostrum waving his baton there would be no music.

If an orchestra played music without a conductor there would be music although it could be managed better thus improving the quality and performance.

What is more important and valuable the conductor or the orchestra?

Producer,
An enterprise has to be a team effort, Woolworths would not make a profit without checkout operators, and the collective and individual efficiency of those operators contributes to the overall bottom line. As do all sections of the workforce within the organsiation. Obviously some team member like the CEO are in a position with greater responsibility and in a higher position of decision making and therefore can have a greater impact individually, than those in a subordinate roll. In the example of Woolworth, the operators are many the CEO is one, collectively the operators are as important as the CEO, but both carrying out rather diverse functions for the business. All the CEO's of Woolworths, one, would make very inefficient checkout operators, and all the checkout operators, many, would make for a very inefficient CEO function. A question, what is most important in a car the motor or the petrol. Both very different commodities, but without either the car does not run, with both the car runs, which one contributes the most to make the car run, therefore which one is the most important? The answer is neither make the car run, both make the car run, therefore logically both are of equal importance in the overall running of the car.

PAUL/WROTE/QUOTE..[JUST FOR FUN?]

<<>.A question,..what is most important in a car
the motor or the petrol...>.

cl;early the moter
its the moter that makes it a moter car

wether the car goes[or not]..dont change
what it is..[ie a motorcar]

BUT YOUR NO time waster/so
..lets find.your further teaching

<<>. Both very different commodities,>>

ah/haa..the motor oil masybe a commodity
but the moter..isnt a consume-able..[being combustible]

<<..but without either the car does not run,>>

ahhh/ha..cars cant run[no legs]
they rock/and roll..rolong to and fro/but lets let that go

<<..with both the car runs,...which one contributes the most to make the car run,..therefore which one is the most important?>>

without a driuver/that car aint going no where

<<..The answer is neither..make the car run,>>[carts dont run]

<<..both make the car run,..therefore logically
both are of equal importance..in the overall running of the car.>>.

sure
but without the logic motivation[read driver]..
that thing aint running no where anytime soon..no matter how much petrol..nor how many moters..we all need the driver/and thats what the holy spirit does

as we watched him..doing..we learned the doing ourselves
unseen is the ego emoting[ie our spirit guides/leading us on by emotive EMOTING/WE ARELED BY OUR SENSES/THEY DETERMINE THE LIMITS WE SET UPON OUR ABILITY TO DRIVE[SORRY RUN']

OH WEWLL ITS BEEN FUN
FORGIVE ME THE FUN OF THE PUN
ITS JUST a driver less auto..wont go..fast nor slow
[why is it so?]..we need a head..to be fully productive
and currently we are running around..like headless crooks..get educated/then educate

http://rss.infowars.com/20140407_Mon_Alex.mp3

know/the truth..it shall set u free/unlike fuel thats been over priced

Paul1405 – I have no major issues with your analogy.

I would use car and mechanic, rather than petrol and motor.

My point is that the car will still run without a mechanic. With a competent mechanic you would expect the car to run better, longer and more economically.

This analogy and the one I used above with the orchestra would suggest the car and the orchestra are more important that the mechanic and conductor. Logically there would be no use for a mechanic or conductor without the car and the orchestra.

I also have issues with the issue of equality. This concept raises the ghost of communism which like capitalism is a fail experiment.

I maintain proportionality is a far better method to distribute productive wealth. Everybody gets enough, no one gets too much and it can be targeted to increase or decrease desirable and undesirable activities.

Eyes tight shut, fingers in ears, no wonder dills like Paul have no idea of the facts of life. I give you case studies of a couple of tupney hapney business I ran, just to try to give you some idea of the business world, & I get that crap.

Why on earth would I bother big noting myself to the likes of you. With your closed brain, you would never understand.

Producer your Woolworths example is perfect, except that the store management have exactly no input into the stock they carry. That is dictated by head office, probably by a fairly sophisticated computer program. If management get that wrong, bankruptcy surely will follow.

Producer, you miss one point in your orchestra analogy. If the management chose to play the wrong music, at the wrong venue, no amount of musicianship can save that orchestra from going broke.

I once attended a concert by perhaps 25% of the Queensland symphony orchestra in a park in Cairns. Nothing too highbrow, the acoustics were dreadful, & they probably weren't the best musicians in the company, but it was an incredible concert. No symphony orchestra could have produced great music in a bandstand designed for brass bands, in a park, in the tropics, but it was really great. A good management decision, if not too good artistically.

Think of house building. A great tradesman can build a great house, but no bunch of laborers will build a good house from a pile of wood, & some nails. However add one good foreman, & prefabricated trusses & wall frames, & those laborers can do a great job, but with out the foreman, just like the chicken after it's head is cut off, it is all over.

haSBEEN/has been making a great point
<<..with out the foreman,..its
just like the chicken..after it's head is cut off,>>

and thats where mankind is today
there are many sceemers looting and plundering

ie..this means..the sheeple got no leaders

<<>.it is all over.>>

yep wwe are all awaiting the end game
4 cRACKUP/CURRENT AFFAIR LAST NIGHT TALKED OF THIS..topic
said far worse than you put it first post..anyhow

it will be only as bad as our leaders allow it to become

hth can end it in a second/her and the pope
simply decree that those sworn/to serve her and her commonwealth
go in over night/to seize/secure and prepare the assets..that all upper management..is officially on holidays on full pay.

its by proper assurance
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6152&page=0#178808
http://whatreallyhappened.com/podcasts/hourtitle1.m3u

chief ex-i-cute.ioniser

Hasbeen – I thought Paul1405 metaphorical representation was reasonable and contributed to the discussion. By the way the Woolworths example was Paul1405s not mine. I don’t know if that was a typo or poorly managed by you.

On the contrary Hasbeen, you miss one point in my orchestra analogy which by the way did not mention management. However if the management chose to play the right music, at the right venue, no amount of management can save that performance from going broke if there was no orchestra.

This is silly I know but it illustrates management cannot function without the orchestra. The orchestra could function without management. I do concede good management may result in a superior performance.

My comments are the same with regard to your house analogy. I do concede good management may result in a superior house. You don’t mention that bad management may result in an inferior house and good tradesmen that are self-managed may produce a superior house more cost effectively.

My point still is that these professions and others should have a right to exist. They should not however be receiving a disproportionate share of the productive wealth as many do.

Producer "I don’t know where you get the idea that they are not producers?"

Because nothing artists do helps us "survive" (which was *your* definition of valuable production).

I we never saw another film or heard another song in our life, we would still "survive".

The money diverted to art/entertainment could be more "productively" used in more substantial enterprises.

"a disproportionate share of the productive wealth"

Do you really think the Beatles billions was "proportionate" to their services?

Lawyers and bankers serve a more "useful" service than Lady Gaga.
People need court representation and legal advice, they need a secure place to store their money.
They don't need meat dresses.

Oh, but Gaga *is* worthless, while the Beatles are unquestionable geniuses, I hear you say.

That is *your* personal evaluation.
Others may think differently, and will say so by how they spend their dollars.
Consumers decide what's "desirable and undesirable".

"I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter."

I personally don't dispute anyone's presence in the economy.
They must satisfy some needs/desires or they wouldn't be doing what they do.
*You* are the one dividing the world into useful and useless people.

"What is more important and valuable the conductor or the orchestra?"

The composer.

"you miss one point in my orchestra analogy which by the way did not mention management"

Ah, the conductor?

Now we can agree on something Producer.

Bad management is totally destructive. That is why good management is so valuable.

Just imagine this country if we had good management in the bureaucracy. We would save billions, & could easily halve the workforce, if bureaucrats were even nearly as efficient as workers in the private sector.

Hasbeen, "Just imagine this country if we had good management in the bureaucracy. We would save billions, & could easily halve the workforce, if bureaucrats were even nearly as efficient as workers in the private sector"

There is an amusing story with quite a deal of truth I believe of the Secretary (CEO) of a federal department asking his managers to remain on the floor after a staff meeting. To his great surprise very few 'employees' left and those who did probably had a toilet appointment. Which left the departmental Secretary to conclude that all of his Canberra staff had 'management' responsibilities.

One wonders who they all managed, that is, who was actually doing the work. Then again, if 'management', 'coordinate', 'liaise' and similar words were removed from the duty statements of the Canberra public servants would there be anything left to justify their numbers and large salaries?

There should be no surprise that recent studies show that Canberra's central offices have very few employees at base and junior levels. All are 'managers', but of what? Especially where 'regional' or 'State' branches have been stripped, or functions lost entirely. For example, Veterans' Affairs would most likely have a higher management to staff ratio and a higher number of senior executives (SES) to staff than it had after WW2, when it was responsible for thousands of returned soldiers and directly managed large hospitals. Maybe commemoration is seen as a higher function to manage. (sic)

Shocka – That was a very crude interpretation of my response to your post and way of the mark to boot.

Again my point still is that these professions and others should not have a right to exist. They should not however be receiving a disproportionate share of the productive wealth as many.

My position is that the Beatles and Gaga do receive a disproportionate share of productive wealth but that is not to say they do not have a right to do what they do and at the same time receive a proportionate share of that wealth.

This same philosophy applies to Crackcup the initiator of this thread. He and his wife, as every pensioner should receive a proportionate share of this countries productive wealth.

Shocka – Never verbal me. Saying things like “I here you say”, “that is your personal evaluation” to comments that you insinuate I have said so that you can support your position is a big no no.

By all means quote me, exactly and by all means take me to task, but never verbal me, got it?

Bottom rung lawyers that charge $440.00/HR for law with no justice and bankers that caused the greatest financial crisis of our times, I think not. I for one say the Beatles and Gaga offer a far more beneficial service.

Hasbeen – I bit of positivity. I wouldn’t sweep so broad however. There are well managed efficient bureaucrats as well as poorly managed inefficient private sector workers.

I agree there is a proportion of agreement.

OTB – Another boring coalition press release.

Crackcup – you should get stuck into this mob, they are the ones who want your pension.

Producer: I thought that you may have deduced that I am pretty disillusioned with both/all sides of Politics!

Have you noticed how the people, get bombarded daily by all forms of MSM with even more "bad" news. The obvious answer of course is to turn off the TV or the Radio and don`t buy newspapers, but let us face facts, we just cannot escape from the now virtually daily ritual of increasing costs for something or other, just to keep us jumping and adding more anxiety to our now more than ever controlled lifestyles.

I heard the results of a survey re the best country to live in today (I think it was the most contented people!) and I heard that New Zealand was Number 1 at the top of the list, with Australia coming in as the 14th. From my experience of my last visit to NZ, I can quite understand why this is so! I found the people in general to be much more open and much happier, with many smiling faces to be seen, whereas here in Oz, the population seems to be too weighed down with the world`s problems and I DO NOT see many smiling faces on the streets!

As I said in my opening Post, where have we gone wrong during the last 60 odd years, when way back in the 50`s Australia was close to a Pacific Paradise? We were not flush with money in those days, but we were generally much better off,....( maybe we appreciated the simple things in life more? ).

I believe the greatest thing that we have lost in today`s society is the "quality of life" and the "disintegration of the family unit"
Religion is a joke, with all the evils within the Church exposed to all and sundry. All religious groups have a lot to answer for in the degradation of a sound and caring society.
Politics itself as an institution has degenerated into a glorified "Hot Seat", where money and personal remuneration is the main event, and to the reasonably intelligent, is fast becoming a non-event!

Crackcup – You’re not alone with everything you say. I can’t see things changing in the near future either.

The Kiwis have a proportional voting system which means that it is virtually impossible to get a majority. No one party has the power or the authority in its own right does anything. They have to talk, haggle and compromise. Decisions are more considered and are supported by a majority of representatives that represent a majority. It isn’t perfect but its light years ahead of our minority government. Germany has the same system.

I pointed out earlier in this thread, the Coalition received 45.55% of the vote yet control 60% (90 seats) in the House of Representatives. THIS IS NO DEMOCRACY! With the exception of Tasmania no parliament in this country governs with a majority.

Until the majority of our countrymen are prepared to vote in a government that is prepared to change the system to a proportional one, nothing will change until the faeces hits the fan. The main problem is that the government making the change will effectively be giving up power.

I also did a double page post earlier in this post that explains part of my philosophy in relation to proportionality addressed to you and OUG. I find it difficult to get critical discussion on this topic on this forum. Everyone seems so focused on political spin or their own little issues.

Good Luck, I hope things get better for you.

Here we go again Producer. Tasmania in particular, & NZ to a large extent are basket cases, probably due largely to their electoral system. Tasmania would have sunk long ago, if it had not been bleeding mainland states for half a century.

New Zealand would also have sunk many years back, if it had not been able to export a huge percentage of it's excess & unemployable at home, population to Oz. This has done more than a little damage to our health, welfare & employment situation.

When you can avoid the results of your lousy management by exporting much of it, [or just bludging on the rest], you can get away with lousy impractical government. If Tasmania had to pay it's own way, it would could only afford a third world standard. If NZ had to support all the population it has breed in the last 50 years, it would not be much better.

Crackcup the reason for our fall comes to just a few problems. Immigration, multiculturalism, & the huge growth of our main cities. These have made our main cities suffer a big loss when it comes to livability, & there is no sign they can climb out of the mess they are in.

Hasbeen,
Ill-informed comment about Kiwi's in Australia. The facts are their rate of unemployment is lower than the national average for Australia and their participation rate is higher than the national average. Kiwi's in Australia have a much lower rate of unemployment that is the case back in NZ. Kiwi's coming to Australia tend to be more skilled than average, a fact not lost on their PM John Key when complaining about a skills drain from NZ to Australia. Kiwi's coming to OZ also have much higher capital reserves than the average migrant, spend a lot less time unemployed than the average and require far less government assistance than the majority of migrants. All in all, if Australia wanted migrants, Kiwi's purely from an economic point of view would be about the top choice.

Well said Paul1405 – Although the old Hasbeen does have a point when he says:

“The reason for our fall comes to just a few problems. Immigration, multiculturalism, & the huge growth of our main cities”

Before this all happened there were full employment and no debt. Real estate values where stable and there was no global warming. Mind you communism was rife but there were no filthy rich. Maybe we should go back to a pre Captain Cook model?

I did notice that he did not refer to Germany nor did he comment on their proportional system which was the basis of my comments or offer an alternative.

I notice Hasbeen and others will not get out of their comfort zone, are quick to criticize, comment without balance, no suggestions of a better way and just fall into line. Then there are the political and religious toadies. Sad really!

This anonymous forum allows someone to explore a concept free of the constrains of an individual’s real world.

Producer: "This anonymous Forum allows someone to explore a concept free of the constraints af an individual`s real world"

I trust that you are aware that ALL messages/communications that flow over the Internet are channelled through the US Echelon Surveillance System?

Bill Gates had to allow the NSI to have an access key to Microsoft Computers worldwide, in order to be allowed to establish his Microsoft empire,....this was reasonably common knowledge in the earlier days of the Internet.

Never assume that anything that you may send or receive across the Internet is "Anonymous"! It may appear anonymous to fellow recipients however the ever-seeing eye of Uncle Sam is always vetting your messaging by using the Echelon computers to "look" for certain keywords etc.

Unfortunately this type of surveillance is now coming closer to home, with local survellance systems now coming into play here, under the guise of "monitoring the accessing of Ponography/Pedaphelia sites"
The Internet Service Providers have to allow access to the "authorities" or face closure!

<<.and others..will not get out of..their comfort zone,
who.<<are quick to criticize,>>

THE CRITISIM..says i dont un derstand
this allows us to explain/it more clearly
this can only help us more next time we want to be comprehended

<<..comment without balance..>>

is ike one hand clapping
]its like sitting yelling into a corner/then finding out everyone else is playing footy at the bbq..[being ignored hurts worse than ANY..critism can..[being heard even if absurd..but once ya get told..from there it gets old]

<<..no suggestions of a better way and just fall into line. Then there are the political and religious toadies. Sad really!>>

i agree on so many fronts
but its not by sameness we grow..but saneness

<<..This anonymous forum allows someone>>.../*any-one*\..<<to explore a concept>>..*/any-con-cept*\..<<..free of the constrains of an individual’s real world.>>>and then the mod says topic refused

but a reply..needs be reclused..or excused
explained..restrained..regained..but retained

http://rss.infowars.com/20140408_Tue_Alex.mp3

Crackcup – What are you saying?

Should we not communicate because big brother might hear?

Should we not talk for fear of being overheard?

Should we only utter words that are acceptable to those who have authority?

Perhaps you should not have started this thread as you may be persecuted?

Tell me what we should and should not say on this forum?

We better whisper or we might get a BTT from OTB

CRACKED UP/QUOTE..<<>.I trust that you are aware that ALL messages/communications that flow over the Internet are channelled through the US Echelon Surveillance System?>>

ITS FUNNY/ONLY YESTERDAY..i was reading how all info is divided inTO 9
TOPICS/AND THE PROBLEM..IS OVERLOAD..HAS BLOCKED UP THE WHOLE SPY GRID

BUT IT WAS never towatch us all
just the deal makers to front run and control the reigns of power
to know who you now/think your facebook do you now messages/but by 7 degrees of desperation the 9 becomes 3..all aimed at health wealth/sex..once you know all the pedophiles/you can run the world..come with them/you got all your perversions met.

but there are big sins and not even sin
yet they think..its huge so the seat sniffers get exposed
look at who they upset/they donty care to watch us/unless your the best acces point into who they wanne control next

many hands make this scam work
but soon it goes bust..then we know who corrupted who
plus where they built their hideout.where they put the wealth

im glad they watching me
where do i get that living barcode/
that allows only the living to buy and sell?

its in my dna..[spit/or other/dna..on this stamp/
your dna signifies your you/sealed by your mark/...[seal it with your sig-nature]..your mark

sign here

ok your contracted/proof positive we contacted

Yes Paul, we know you are married to one, so can't expect any balance from you. Yes Kiwis are definitely some of the better immigrants, but we don't need them, or any migrants.

If they all went home, & NZ had to support the full result of their fornication the place just might sink. Even if it didn't actually physically sink, it's economy would founder completely.

I notice you didn't stick up for Tasmania. Could that be that even with that bastard electoral system, designed to give the balance of power to a minority of riff raff & rat bags, operating on the fringe of productive society, they kicked your ass in the last election. Perhaps they can overcome that disadvantage, & keep the spoilers out of their lives.

Comfort zone Producer, how could anyone be in their comfort zone when we have people like the harpies from the south, sitting in our parliaments, wasting our money, & with Julia's help, destroying our economy.

Back to topic. I think it is about time that those getting support from the taxpayers of Oz, [self included] shut the hell up with their demands for more, & said a big thanks to those youngsters struggling to buy homes & raise families, who have to keep, or partially keep us as well.

There is no way the western world can continue with it's socialist welfare society. When too many decide they can vote, rather than work for a living, & every year we gazette more restrictions on the shrinking productive sector, the end of the largess approaches at increasing speed.

NDIS, what a joke. We need to start to cut back on our welfare expenditure before we break our economy. Better a small slice of pie, rather than a big slice of nothing, or it is move over Greece, here we come.

Hasbeen – Still no mention of Germany. You know the country with the proportional voting system and no party with a majority. They support the economy of Europe which includes Greece, the country you say we are in danger of emulating. Maybe if we do end up in that mess the Kiwi’s we support us?

Note: We = Government = the collective us

I do agree that we need to get rid of welfare, the NDIS, charities and any other expenses of this type. This is not a sarcastic dig at you Hasbeen, I’m deadly serious.

We also need to tax income, all income including gambling, charities, religious organisation and the like. We need to stop subsidising non-essential activities like sport, religion, cultural activities and patriotic propaganda.

We need to remove the tax deductibility and tax free status of charities, charitable donations, religious organisations and the really big one advertising.

In a nut shell we should get out of anything that is a drain on the public purse, that is non-essential, non-productive and that individuals can do for themselves.

This might sound like an oxymoron:

We also need to have everyone self-supporting or employed meaningfully to the best of their ability, educated and their health and disability needs looked after.

What do you reckon? Without honing in on one or a couple of points and beating the living daylights out of it, do you have an issue the broad philosophy above

Producer, these are your words: "The basic principle that guides all my thinking is without production there is nothing, I therefore link everything back to that principle. If we all sat down and did nothing we would not survive. We must produce food, shelter and clothing to survive"

*You* are the one who "crudely" defined only bare survival as worthy production.

Art does not feed, house or clothe us.
It is a luxury, not a necessity.
You should follow your own reasoning and call the Beatles "parasites".

"but that is not to say they do not have a right to do what they do and at the same time receive a proportionate share of that wealth."

And, if its not the consumer, just who decides what the Beatles "proportionate share" should be?

You mentioned Apple Records. It is only because of their wealth that the Beatles could set up their own label, helping other artists get exposure.
If they'd received lower incomes, they may never have been able to do that.

"you insinuate I have said so that you can support your position is a big no no."

I was giving a *hypothetical* illustration.
Don't get your panties in a twist.

Shocka – You need to read my double page post on the 6th in this thread. It’s not the total concept but it does address many of your questions.

Nowhere did I say or define “only bare survival as worthy production”. Again this is verballing!

If you said you “I understand that you believe bare survival as worthy production” I would have no issue. It is the adding of the word “only” that changes the context that may be in your head not mine.

If you to make a hypothetical statement, say “hypothetically speaking” not “I here you say” and “that is your personal evaluation”. You must agree to a third party, the inference it completely different.

Rather than jump all over the place let’s focus on the Beatles.

The Beatles as entertainers I agree by my reasoning are parasites. To illustrate this let’s assume hypothetically before they made it big they used to busk on the street. To take out a lot of complexity hypothetically there is no monetary system.

In effect they would be gifted goods and services by the people in the street. A doctor, hair dresser and an instrument maker like their music and offer their services. The doctor got the best deal as they died of hunger and exposer before his services where required.

Let’s rewind: This time their appreciating audience included a farmer, builder and a tailor. In this scenario they survive and thrive. They have somewhere to live, something to eat, trendy cloths to wear, great haircuts, state of the art instruments and the doctor this time treated when they became ill.

I think this hypothetical example illustrates how important primary production is. Without it nothing else matters. This is not to say that non-productive activities aren’t desirable, on the contrary. It defines who we and in many cases advances us as a species.

Sorry Producer, I can't hack your idea of representation. In New Zealand it generated that dreadful Clarke woman, who like Gillard did so much damage it will take decades for them to recover.

Germany has survived so far, because they had a large chunk of the population who had experienced communism. However, they have made such a cock up in falling for the global warming fraud, & wasted so much money, they are themselves heading for a Greek future themselves. They did it to buy the support of a small party of ratbags, & will be paying for decades.

They are now trying to back away from their ridiculous power generation & other fuel policies, as is most of Europe, other than the fool Pom, just as quick as they can run. However they may have lost so much of their industry by the time they can, that it might be terminal damage. A lot of there industry is fleeing to, of all places, the US, where cheap gas is making such a difference.

I think you go perhaps too far with health. Even the Poms have realised that their free health system is going to bankrupt them. We are going to have to cap how much any individual can receive in a given period. We just can't afford to be sticking replacement parts in anyone who might like one.

The idea that the taxpayer can fork out for heart transplants for people who will be nothing but a drain thereafter is ridiculous. General health care we may be able to afford, but as capabilities increase, we are going to have to make much of it user pay. If, after 3 heart attacks, I require a transplant, that should be down to me. I & everyone else should have to prioritise. Is it to be a world cruise, or cash in bank for future medical costs. It should never be a world trip, & then young families later pay more tax to pay for my heart transplant.

Hasbeen – I think your issue is with the concept of representation.

All I have ever suggested is we should have the right to be represented by those we choose. This is not the case in this country.

I also reckon you have a big issue with Sheila’s running things. I have yet to find a positive comment about a female leader from you.

With regards to health care: Sure there should be a social contract that the receiver of a public health care should acknowledge. I for one would forego a cruise or cash in the bank if it meant someone through no fault of their own needed care. The problem with our health system is not so much the patients but the disproportionate cost of the system and the professions and services that have their nose in the health trough.

We need more doctors and nurses working less hours taking a more proportional share of the productive wealth. Medical insurance and unnecessary administration add to the cost. Drugs and equipment are far too expensive. I could go on but I think you get my point.

Producer, you asked;
Should we not communicate because big brother might hear?
Should we not talk for fear of being overheard?
Should we only utter words that are acceptable to those who have authority?

Producer not a problem, just pretend your Tony Abbott, and speak in Mad Monk Gobbledygook, even the CIA wont be able to work out what your saying. Come to think of it, neither will the rest of us. LOL.

Producer, I shouldn't have to write everything in meticulously correct terminology or go to the headmaster.
Surely, you are intelligent enough to figure out something is illustrative or hypothetical without all your extra "correctifying" words.

Bartering sounds terrible.
There is no standardisation. How do the busking Beatles know if they've got a bargain or a rip-off from these "producers"?

There's no way to easily compare value (no fixed prices for all customers).
And how do they get their music to a wider audience if there's no "evil" capitalist record companies?

"I think this hypothetical example illustrates how important primary production is. Without it nothing else matters."

Of course, if you starve to death, nothing else matters.

But there's much more to human life than surviving.
Those other things have value, and we define it through monetary valuations.

If you think $5,000,000 is too much for a Picasso, you can buy the $20 print at the poster store. You decide what is valuable.

shokkers quote..<<..Bartering sounds terrible.>>

people dont..get bartering/what we are dOING HERE/now..is bartering..[THE PUREST FORM OF BASRTER/IN FACT]..we each give our words..in exchange for others words.

a barter where word-forms are exchanged/AND BOTH SIDES FEEL THEY GOT VALUE..[LIKE I LOVED THIS WORD..<<..all your extra "correctifying" words.>>..IT JUST FEELS RIght..]

as doth this..<<....There is no standardisation...>>[my spell-check underlines it[im not sure about standard english..versus yanki-ardazation]..colour needs a u/whats with taking the ou out..to just leave an..'o'..[0?]

<<..How do the busking Beatles..know if..they've got a bargain or a rip-off from these "producers"?>>

they got right royally screwed/like most artists of the day
they got paid by contract/their producer got right royally screwed/he was on something like a few grand/heck how could michael jackson buy the rights to pauls music..these guys are the primary producers of great vibes..and nbow only have fame and forune[poor beggers]

<<>.There's no way..to easily compare value>>
thats why i love word barter/or jam sessions/another pure form..of bartER..ALSO SHOPS SELLING STUFF/I GIVE YOU A DEBT NOTE/PAPER MONEY..YOU GIVE ME THE GOODS/BARTER..MUST BE FAIR..

<<.(no fixed prices for all customers).>>..IS A GREAT IDEA/OUR TIME ISNT VALUED EQUALLY..I WONT CONSIDER WORKING UNDER 50 BUCKS AN HOUR/YET HERE I AM GIVING MY JUNK AWAY FOR FREE.

ALL I GET IN RETURN..IS WE DONT READ YOU..FINE
having points system is fair..[for fining people]..but fining me 900 dollars for not paying 250 rego..thats abusive.

two/posts..needed..articles..should be limited to 4 replies/but as many 'replies' as topic that need replying..10 posts..means two habd a half topics..get reply/yet..6 new topics?

its insane..i tell ya
may times..i read/stuff..have reply..form..in my mind
then cant post..20 hours..its insane..so..compose..on another/thread..or forget..it gets deleted..effort wasted.

only the watchers get all of it/for free
im beginning to resent it/then leeches get many lost posts too

the last 51 words..from previous post

IM SIck of govt agency leeches with guns..colluding..to tripple dip/the cost..to register..[i own something]..thatN i get extortED/into commerce..TO BUY[public liability-insurance],,

at full price/despite a pure driving record/
and using an auto maybe 8 hours total per year

i pay the same commercial flat rate..as one living out of their car 24/7..its just not fair/..insurance should be on fuel/the more your on the road/the more you should pay/to cover the extra risks..but where does govt get off mandating us to insure..for hundreds/that costs only 20 dollar levie/to cover even those not registered.[defaulters]

barter..[unknown to many is a fee/charged to cover un-registered vehicles/because the fee insures even unregistered vehicles/there can be no unregistered/vehicles/yet i paid 900 to prove/govt can force us to do anything/why it was on a register/despite my paying a fine for not being on the register.

to be unregistered is an oxymoron
thus fees to 'register'..is criminal
they took my words/barter.now they take my house for not paying their blackmail/[unpaid fines]

<<..And how do they get their music..to a wider audience
if there's no "evil" capitalist record companies?>>

they go to festivals/flea-markets/you-tube
screw the middle men/govt threats..funny how a bankfee..is the same whether im drawing out billions..or 5 bucks to park..

<<>.there's much more to human life than surviving.>>

yeah getting rich
off others work efforts
then stealing them blind by sin taxes and compulsory fees fines levies service fees access fees/jail threat force and humiliation

<<>.You decide what is valuable.>>
thus its up to you to pay the price
but the pricing means IS UNFAIR/I GIVE AWAY LIFETIMES OF EXPERIENCE..FOR WHAT?..[MOSTLY DELETED POSTS]..WHEN THEY GET MORE THAN THEY Expected.

Shocka – If you write something, write it accurately that’s all!

Bartering is terrible to a parasite as they have nothing to barter!

The example was in no way practical and as you well know it was not meant to be. Clearly it had the desired effect as you have; I believe acknowledged the superior importance of primary production.

Yes: If you starve nothing else matters. This can be expanded to, if you die of exposure nothing else matters. I could go on but I think you have acknowledged the point.

I agree there are other things that have value and they include things like family, friends, and freedom. These as well as many others are in my opinion extremely valuable, are not produced and are not defined through monetary valuations.

A Picasso for $5,000,000.00 to Gina would be small change. Crackcup however who is struggling on an old age pension perhaps would think it too much.

I don’t think art in any form can be measured in monetary terms. Its value is in it enjoyment, how it makes you feel, its message and its timelessness.

Of course you haven't been around long enough Producer, or you would have often heard me waxing lyrical in praise of Maggie. Now there was someone, who happened to be a woman, who knew how to manage.

Incidentally, did you read that list. Every one of them a total catastrophe in their own right.

But no, I don't think much of most female management, at least in the public sector. It is since we got too much female management into education that our system has collapsed.

It has been since area directorships in the health system went to women, that it has started to fail.

All through the bureaucracy, since Labors fool affirmative action policy, has become even less competent. I will admit that could be merely coincidental with all Labor favorites moving in. Possible, but not probable.

I have had a bit too much contact with the female clowns we got in the bureaucracy under Beattie & Bligh to actually believe that.

It is a different exercise in the private sector, where women have to actually earn promotion. There the results are often brilliant.

Has been – Maggie Thatcher, you have to be joking.

Billy Bragg sums it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlkXQm7tSCY

In our case little John has now been by the Rabbott and his mob.

Would you suggest Producer, that any of that useless bunch I listed earlier, would be good enough to lick Maggie's shoes?

If so, what a twisted & disorganized mind you must have.

Hasbeen

Let’s put it this way, if Julie Bishop was leader of the coalition she would suffer the same fate as those on your list. The head reflects the body.

Crackcup – I see the media is now reporting openly that they believe Joe is softening up the oldies for harsher means test and higher retirement age.

I understand there are no poor people involved in setting the pension. I believe it would only be right and proper not to have well off individuals set politicians salaries. I for one would nominate some pensioners.

Hasbeen,

The only list that Maggie Thatcher would appear on is the all time 'Political Wombles' list along with a few other notables, including her one true love in life, Ronnie Reagan, George W Bush and our very own Little Johnny Howard, they would all make such a list, easy! The Mad Monk is doing his utmost to get on, but there are some real corkers in front of him at the moment, but given time The Abbott should be right up there some day.

I wonder what type of failed brain surgery, [actually did they find one], is required to make people think like Producer.

No need to wonder what they did with Paul1405. If they did actually find one, they must have removed it to a bottle of formalin.

Hasbeen

Why is it when you (and for that matter the spin brigade) are presented with a proposition you can’t answer or is outside your philosophical beliefs you resort to personal insults.

I’m sure they make interesting reading. I have been absent from this forum for a number of months and it is my opinion the there are fewer participants and the opinions presented are less diverse.

I was saddened to see long term participant Belly had departed the scene while I was away. Although I was largely at odds to Belly’s philosophy I found Belly added much colour to this forum and considered him a gentleman. I was not privy to the intimate circumstance of why he decided to leave so I will not comment. I believe he would not have done so lightly and I believe he is missed by many that contribute and did contribute to this forum.

The rules are:

Keep responses on topic.
Do not flame.
Do not "shout" (use capital letters excessively).
Do not post the same message across multiple threads.
Do not spam.
Do not attempt to circumvent suspensions.
Moderation rulings are final and will not be discussed on the forum. You may discuss with the moderator privately.
Observe Australian copyright and defamation laws and all other laws relating to acceptable speech.

Perhaps the moderators should start to enforce their own rules?

For the record I must concede at times of frustration, I to may have breached some of the above.

Hi Producer,

A comment on the public health system. My partner works in a large public children's hospital in Sydney. She has nothing but praise for the hospital staff, not only the direct medical staff, who do an outstanding job, but in general she has praise for all the hospital staff from the top down, with the commitment and loyalty they show to the children and the hospital itself, a rare thing in the workplace these days. "T" is a delegate for the HSU and I don't need to going into detail as to how some within the union betrayed the workers, that has been well publicised in the past, my partner has first hand knowledge as to what has taken place, and hopefully justice will be done, Williamson being the first and hopefully not the last to feel the sward of justice in that regard.
A new and dangerous threat to the public hospital system in NSW is coming from the conservative O'Farrell Government, which ha embarked on a well orchestrated campaign to damage the public system to a point where it will become so unworkable that people will have no other option/choice than to seek health services from the private sector, wherever they can. We are heading towards an "American" style heath system riddled with inequality, and lacking in service for many whilst pandering to the wants of the privileged few.
Liberalism was once about fairness, sadly that is no longer the case with the Liberal Party now controlled by the neoconservatives who hold no pretense to serving society for the social good, but rather looking to be divisive, and serving vested interests only, pandering to the greed of their supportive minority, through the manipulation of the majority.

belly left..[in my opinion]..because he saw/both parties..having issues/but those seeing them selves..on the other side..refused to back off..he was willing to be fair..but those who opposed him//kept digging away

lots indeed went away..but we are always leaving anyway
I LOOK UP AND SEE NO CAPS..WOW..[oops..lol]..i dont control the caps/but heck if thats all they got..thats all they can reply

anyhow alex jones is on the target..today
he speaks in all caps..whereas my preference = no caps
if you can disconnect the shift button..[ie no caps]..i would be fine
FOR ME ITS JUST FUNNY.,.damm there it went again..any yhow to me its funny/as when i wriTE IN LONg hand..its near all caps/as i never learned..to scribe words in lower case/but now cause of a simply consubale computer cliche..my typing resembles more closely my hand[and im not bying more computers..im over that obsolesance vbuilt in programing/and im not alone[pleasse note the high teq marketing system..STOCK..IS FALLING..inbuilt obsolesance..IS A FAILED MARKETING PLOY..buy a new one..or we kill the old operating system

yeah that worked..for a while
then people got angry/so the trolls said stop all anger
if its in caps..dont emote..dont feel or feel bad id someone uses caps

lol what a world the teq rats and money changers have built

you can talk freely
but please dont yell..yeah time doth tell
the bell tolls..whats worse yelling truth or trolls?

OUG

To be fair to the 'Usual Suspects' on here, who attack all those with opposing opinions, including this 'Little Green Pixie', who in turn gives as good as he gets. Being part of a political discussion/forum, its not for the faint heart'd, and I'm sure the moderator takes that into account when assessing the "wortheness " or otherwise of the material so posted. I personally apply the "Armadillo Principle" no good just being thick skinned but you need a thick shell as well and "uninsultability" is also a worthwhile attribute to possess when engaging with some of those with countering views to your own.
If you really want to get fired up just join the 'Flower Arranging for Beginners Forum' and watch the sparks fly! I am one of the shrinking violets on that forum, but I can tell you, that F'n B, Mary whats her name from Whooping is a low down dirty...what would she know about arranging roses, I hope all the petals fall off her geranium, and her aspidistra get the wilt! Gee, feels good to get that off my compost pit. Tomorrows discussion is about the value of petunias in the home garden, now that is a controversial subject, hopefully that could lead to blood shed in the tool shed, as the subject always invokes raw emotion with some of us. LOL

Paul1405 – Your comments must with everything else be of additional concern to Crackcup.

I believe that as a society we have to be forever vigilant to the rorts from all areas of our community. It is very crowded around King Arthur’s half round trough for him and his nights (the lot of them are very dark). Room is at a premium as the snouts grow larger.

I concur with your observations of the health sector, particularly with your comments concerning an American insurance based system. I think the current system is already pandering to the privileged few and many of the privileged few (I am not referring to your partner) are service providers.

Insurance I believe is an integral part of our health system however. I also believe that this insurance should be universal and financed by the public for the public. If run properly it will be cheaper as there is no profit motive and duplicated administration. Other changes also need to be made.

As we evolve to the American style model the cost will continue to rise and the system will continue to become more selective.

Publically subsidised private health insurance, like toll roads, and privatisation are examples of weak government shirking their responsibilities. They underestimate the intelligence of the electorate as Anna found out and Can Do Mini Me and others will. It shifts the hard decisions, cost and responsibility of public policy to the private sector at a considerable greater cost to the electorate.

As I have said many times on this forum and will continue to say, we currently have 45.55% minority government. I believe what you say about the current health system applies to the current goverment. They are looking to be divisive, and serving vested interests only, pandering to the greed of their supportive minority, through the manipulation of the majority.

To be fair this current government does not carry total responsibility for our health system. The current situation has evolved over many minority parliaments and while the minority red team was in power as well.

Producer, the political group The Wombles are anarchist anti-capitalists and the BBC TV show was an exercise in green brainwashing for children.

Thatcher would hardly be on the same list as either type.
Perhaps you should find more "correct" terminology or go to the headmaster.

"the opinions presented are less diverse."

Bet you didn't have a problem when the site was left-dominated a few years back.

The tide has turned. Poor baby.
If you think this is the "worst" of it, buckle up.

What you see here is just the tip of the iceberg (or perhaps tsunami would be more appropriate).
There are probably millions of others who have similar opinions, but say nothing in public.

One Nation got a million votes in 1998 (9%).
There's been 15 years of Multi-Hell since then.
Another 2.3 million immigrants, at least 1.4 million of non-European ancestry.

Good luck ever dominating this forum or our society ever again, lefties.

WELCOME..TO THE ENRON/WAY..recall they destroyed buildiNG 7
did 911..just to make the enron expose go away..but the sin goes on

yjey steal our super
making our wages short
then by easy credit..trap us in endless debt

from.sacrificial lambs
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16206&page=0
the leeches suck at our pay/everyday..
so that to survive..we need live off credit/CARD.high intrest to meet the pension outlay

ADD/IN SIN TAXES..go away..the dead..must stop bleeding us dry
sin tax leeches..GOOD MONEY AWAY BY BAD LIE..GOVT..IS NOT CREATED.TO MODIFY our morality...nor STEAL AWAY..our pay..go away.ENRON ESQ PRICING.HAS HAD..ITS DAY

OUR/SACRIFICE...BUILDS..YOUR infrastructure

GOVT BUILDS PIPELINES..FREE FOR SANTOS/BUYS BACK SOLAR POWER AT 3 TIMES SALE PRICE...HERE MORE CRIME..exit 118..Approved by Federal Highway Administration
http://mesquitelocalnews.com/sections/news/local-news/exit-118-approved-federal-highway-administration.html

Federal Highway Administration.(FHWA) has approved the installation of Exit 118 along Interstate 15.in Mesquite,Right near the Bundy Ranch,[SEE OTHER LINKS]..which means the planis to seize the open lands and sell them .to developers for shopping centers,etc.

NEPOTISM?..OF COURSE..KEEPING IT IN THE FAMILY

Son Representing Chinese Solar Panel Plant in $5 Billion Nevada Deal
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/09/04/Harry-Reid-s-Son-Representing-Chinese-Solar-Panel-Plant-In-5-Billion-Nevada-Deal

a Chinese energy company..seeking to build a $5 billion solar panel plant on a 9,000-acre Clark County desert plot in Laughlin, Nevada.

ENN scored big when Clark County commissioners unanimously voted to sell the Chinese company the public land..for just $4.5 million, despite the fact.that it was appraised at $38.6 million.

PLUS THE..global/FRAKKERS/./LEASES NEED THE WATER RIGHTS
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/blm-fracking-racket-exposed-armed-siege-and-cattle-theft-from-bundy-ranch-really-about-fracking-leases_042014

REGARDLESS OF COST
http://12160.info/page/bundy-ranch-federal-officials-spend-966-000-on-contractors-to-rem

http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/blackwater-mercs-in-blm-uniforms-hitting-bundy-ranch-video-and

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2014/04/07/harrys-reids-toxic-influence-on-politics/

thing is..the bigger the bribe..the more in/on the scam

http://americanfreepress.net/?p=12418

we build it..with your money
then you..can pay the rent..once the hard work..is done

all superannuation..for the masses has done..is cash up criminals
to steal public utilities.like commonwealth ban telstra..quasi privatization gas water power..the price triples and thats a great way..to get you to pay your own pension..plus interest/plus capitalist..'return'//plus bonus.and excess fees,,,please

any govt.that borrows.....its own money from bankers..does treason
ignorance of the law..is no excuse..[if you make the laws...then you must die by the law]

steal our super steal..our public assets..steal our govt
make our wages short..lend us back our own super.at 15 percent..win win..for the money men..sin-tax reaping..bah

Shocka – You shocker! What a load of self-indulging noise.

Get real, the undisputable fact is 54.45%, a majority of voters didn’t want the current mob. As stated previously, that’s without a credible alternative.

Me think’s your iceberg tip is a prop made of Styrofoam, no matter how you spin it or how delusional you are!

We as a community must never let King Arthur and his nights of half round trough, to increase their power and influence.

If we do Crackcup will have no pension.

Shocker, your white supremacist politics has been totally rejected in Australia. Such ratbags as One Nation or Australia First types may garner a modicum of support in the USA but not here. Hanson, who has been around in everything except a washing machine, has been rejected time and again by the voters. Even The Fuhrer himself Jim Saleam from the Australia First Party tried his hand in 2013 in the federal seat of Cook and got a laughable 617 votes! One Nation did indeed get a million vote in 1998, how many did they get in 2013? Been a long time between drinks for your mob! Shocker are you a party member, or like another forumite, I could name, too lousy to pay the subs? LOL

Hi Producer,

Just to continue a little on the original topic. Shocker referred to the "lefties" and by definition there must be "righties" also in existence. The oft used terms of left and right in politics is a concept I can never fathom, it implies its measurable from some central source and therefore views, opinions, policy, etc can be quantified, which they can't. I much prefer the terms "progressive" and "conservative". I see myself in general terms as a progressive on most political issues that arise, being one who is willing to embrace change for the perceived good of society, whilst the conservative view supports no change, most likely for the same altruistic reasons, we know from experience the reasons that drive people (politicians) are not always so altruistic, but that is human nature.
I see ones politics as being divided into two distinct concepts, the first being a personal political philosophy, all that general feel good stuff about the rights of man and the democratic process and the rule of law etc etc and how this all should be achieved etc etc. Then there is the nuts and bolts of political policy, generally expressed by others (politicians) and agreed to or otherwise by us the people, with our overriding opinion, in our society, being expressed through the ballot box. To try and put it simply the philosophy might be the acceptance that taxation is necessary for the greater good of society, the policy as proposed by some is a Carbon Tax, others oppose such a tax, but they don't oppose tax as a philosophy per say, just this particular policy as part of taxation. Added to the mix is the "extremist" who's political philosophy is so far removed from main stream that it is indeed extreme, but by definition extremists are few in number. In my taxation example the extremest philosophy is taxation is unacceptable and there any policy that proposes any tax must be opposed.
Simply a person can be politically progressive and conservative all depending on the particular issue, and how it gels with their particular philosophy

Paul 1405 says: <<Shocker referred to the "lefties" and by definition there must be "righties">>

Aaaah!

The correct terms are *righties* and *wronguns*

If you are not a right you can only be wrong!

See here's the definition of a wroungun: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wrongun
It describes you, Paul, and Producer down to a T.

Paul1405 – Although I do not argue with your definition of progressive and conservative, as a definition of a philosophical concept. Such philosophies I believe can and do lead to a lot of interpretation and the weasel words that accompany. This can lead to great debate on the part at the expense of the whole.

Putting individual personal philosophy to one side I prefer to drill down to the mechanism that controls the philosophical and practical aspects of power/government.

We do not have a representative democratic system in this country. The current system switches power between the so called left/right and progressive/conservative with a very small swing in the electorate. A swing equivalent to seven seats resulted in a change of seventeen. It also disenfranchises the representation a significant proportion of the electorate.

Until we correct this fundamental wrong we will not have the debate and compromise that is currently missing in the halls of power.

I suppose the question I would ask you is where such a concept sit’s in your philosophy.

"Get real, the undisputable fact is 54.45%, a majority of voters didn’t want the current mob." says Producer.

Pray tell how many did not want Labor, or just what huge percentage did not want Greens. Even more interesting is how many did not want Labor in Western Australia.

You folk are going to have to stop lying some time. Most importantly you are going to have to stop lying to yourselves. Comforting yourselves with these twisted statistics you tend to use, will only extend the pain.

You have to recognise you are on the nose, realise this & evaluate why, before you can ever come back. You have been relying on the Richardson system of buying groups of voters with crazy policies for too long now. Yes it did work, you gained more votes than you lost. However the voters have got sick of it, & it has become counter productive. You are loosing more than you gain.

I can't believe you can not see the Carbon tax cost you most of the reputation you had left. Keeping it now is just so counterproductive, I can't believe you can do it.

So please no more twisted contorted & abused statistics, better to try something productive.

Has been

STOP THE PRESS

I don’t know if you realise, you actually for the first time acknowledged a majority of Australian voters (54.45%) did not want the coalition.

Well done.

You also point out quite correctly that only a minority of Australian voters wanted the other parties also.

Well done too!

Two gold stars, then I’m afraid you lost it and started to Rabbott on again.

Why is it that the coalition has non-democratic 60%, 90 seat majority in the house of non-representatives.

Producer, "majority of voters didn’t want the current mob"

What an odd statement by someone who questions the representativeness of the current system!

They didn't want the last mob either.

Paul1405, Hanson still got a million votes for her party.
But she wasn't exactly fit to wear the crown, being thrust into the spotlight by accident.

But there doesn't even need to be some exceptional leader/spokesperson emerge.
The internal flaws/contradictions in your own utopian lunacy will put an end to itself one day.

Only that end will be very destructive and depressing.
If you would listen now, that could be avoided.

This isn't about "white supremacy".
(However, the evidence (Human Development index, GDP-per-capita) shows Whites are the gold medalists in the human "race".)

It's simply about us, Australians (the ethnic group) *being* White.
We were always White.

We should have the same rights as a "people", with our own culture/morphology, as the Thai, Zulus or Egyptians.

Thai don't look or live like Zulus.
Zulus don't look or live like Egyptians.
Australians don't look or live like the above.

We never hear the end of how Europeans invaded the territories of native peoples around the world.

But when it's *us* being displaced and disrespected, somehow that's something to *celebrate*!

Even if we were demonstrably INFERIOR, we should still have the right to maintain our distinct ethnic (i.e. bio-cultural) character.

How can we do that, when most of our population growth is from immigration, and 80% of immigrants are obviously dissimilar/unrelated to us, biologically and/or culturally?

People who were similar (other Europeans) could eventually be adsorbed invisibly into the general population.
Not so with non-Europeans.

"a progressive is willing to embrace change for the perceived good of society"

Yes, not change for the sake of change.

What is the "perceived good" in the fragmentation caused by introducing 6000 alien cultures into Australia?

"I much prefer the terms "progressive" and "conservative""

More accurate still would be "idealist" and "realist".

It is quite clear it is primarily (but not exclusively) people who could be labelled Leftist who are behind this reckless social experiment.

Shocka – I had to read it twice and I still don’t believe it.

You said:

<<It's simply about us, Australians (the ethnic group) *being* White. We were always White.>>

Might I suggest that you are mixing up fact with the fiction of “Terra Nullius”

The other undisputable fact is 45.55% is still a minority.

Shocker,

"(However, the evidence (Human Development index, GDP-per-capita) shows Whites are the gold medalists in the human "race"."
Didn't Jesse Owens disproved that for you in 1936, and The Fuhrer marched out of the stadium? Bad choice of words "gold medal" for that one.

"It's simply about us, Australians (the ethnic group) *being* White.
We were always White." You forgot to tell that to the likes of Galmahra or Truganini. this sounds like the return of the Aryan's to me.
Shocker is 'One Nation' still in existence? and I'm sure you were one of the 1 million in 1998, or one of the 617 in 2013, providing you are old enough to vote.

Producer,

The "democratic" system in Australia, like in other western countries, is designed to ensure power only oscillate in a narrow band between two like parties. There is far more similarity between Labor and the Coalition than what could be defined as differences. Some prattle on as if there is some yawning chasm in policy between the major parties when there is none. Both parties support the status quo which ensures business as usual regardless of which one occupies the government benches in Canberra. All the political debate centers around emphases and degree, there is no discussion about fundamental changes to society. Australians are far too comfortable with their present situation both economically and politically to contemplate any kind of radicalism. Even my party The Greens is not radical but still politically very much "main stream" supportive of the present system.
As to what you said about the vote and the final outcome, much of the inequality would be addressed by proportional representation, but for our system to work "efficiently", it requires one party to dominate for a period and then the other to do likewise, always moving backwards and forwards in a narrow band. The recent aberration of a slightly minority government shows that the system will become inefficient if pure democracy was to prevail. Can you imagine if our parliament of 150 representatives was made up of 67 competing voices. The government commanding the loyalty of say 20, and relying on the vote of 56 from a collection of all sorts, it would simply become unworkable.
Even when one side proposes minor changes, like a tax for example, it is met with strenuous opposition and great debate takes place from all quarters. Image if the government of the day advocated a real fundamental change like nationalise the means of production, if a proposed small tax change invokes hysteria image what nationalisation would invoke, riots in the streets, calls for the army to intervene.

Paul1405, "Simply a person can be politically progressive and conservative all depending on the particular issue, and how it gels with their particular philosophy"

Do you understand what those philosophies are though?

If honesty was to prevail, you and other very vocal 'Left' on here were clueless about Fabianism and its influence in Labor, and its sly take-over of the Labor structure, until I informed you and them on here. Then you and they disbelieved it and to use one of their favourite words, you and they were 'in denial'. I wondered at the time how you and the faux 'Left' on OLO (any real lefties would disown you all) could be so ignorant as to not even know whet they were voting for and could only arrive at the conclusion that you must rely on the spin of the political 'Progressies' aka Fabians aka International Socialists. It is funny though how you and they did not know they were voting for and spruiking the global world order of International Socialism.

You pretend that the Greens are a single voice despite the very obvious fact that they are split into warring tribes with ideologies that are chalk and cheese, and their only agreement is that they blame others. The Greens are just a protest party as Julia Gillard said.

Now you claim that the NSW 'Watermelon' faction of the Greens, comprising your claimed good mate and political featherweight, that headline-seeking fool Shoebridge and the awful Trotskyist Lee Rhiannon (Brown) are not radicals(?!), when they are trying so hard to be, and succeeding. Honestly the NSW Watermelon faction you claim to be in lock-step and matey with are as crazy as cut snakes, even madder than that, because they bite themselves as well.

OTB – Crawl back into your hole.

Paul1405 – Thankyou for your considered comments.

I agree there is little difference between the blue and red team and the majority of western systems are set up to oscillate between two similar parties. My reading is Australians are becoming increasingly uncomfortable and if the situation continues to deteriorate there will be a window of opportunity. We saw what happened when One Nation burst on to the political scene. For a proportional system to be even considered by the electorate it firstly have to be aware of it. A proportional system is not a panacea for all political ills, it merely facilitates democracy. Stable counties like New Zealand and Germany illustrate that minority government is stable and successful. I disagree that domination of a single party is required for stability.

The green team would have the most to gain from a proportional system as it would have 13 seats in the House of Representatives. For the greens to support the current preferential system not only fails Australians, democracy but the green party itself.

I believe Australians will accept a well-argued positive major change more readily than the minor ones.

Producer, "Crawl back into your hole"

The erudite Producer demonstrating his dislike for free speech.

That is what is wrong with the Greens since they lost the green environmentalism long ago and red social activism created the irreconcilable splits such as between the NSW Watermelon faction, the Sarah Hyphenated-Hyphen lunar mission, and the Milne group that heads in another direction. No longer the grinning bobble-headed Bob Brown to pretend any semblance of leadership, for Bob has his golden handshake and is away a-roving, a pirate on the Seven Seas.

Julia Gillard didn't find the Greens at all funny as her ever treacherous side-kicks though.

I have noticed on the forum, I only need to post the word "Fuhrer" and like a rat out of the cornflakes pack, up pops Beach! Like a re-run of a 1950's Sc-fi movie in which the buzz words "The Martians are coming!" were repeated over and over, with Beach its not the Martians that are about to invade the Earth, but its a case of "The Fabians are coming!" No doubt Beach "discovered" the Fabians one day whilst Googling his favorite person The Fuhrer and accidentally typed Fa instead of Fu and lone behold, what pops up The Fabians. young Beach has been mesmerised by The Fabians ever since. Unfortunately for Beach, like those 1950's Sc-fi's its all pure fiction.
Beach, you go on about me and David Shoebridge and Lee Rhiannon, when did you first realise your party leader was none other than Mr 617 votes, Jim Saleam the notorious Australia fascists. What attracts you to 'National Socialism' is it those snappy, flash black uniforms, or is it their policies, or both?

Paul1405,

LOL Everyone disregards your ridiculous flamebait.

Now what about some comments on those factions in the Greens which will come into play soon if Christine Milne takes her own advice.

<GETTING OLD: 60-year-old Christine Milne calls 59-year-old Martin Ferguson an "old-stager"

Greens party leader Christine Milne is older than retiring Labor MP Martin Ferguson and despite lots of goodwill for the long-time unionist turned highly effective and respected Resources minister who yesterday said he’d be retiring from Parliament, she felt free to slag him rather harshly and very ungraciously today:

“Frankly, I think it’s good the old-stagers of the fossil-fuel era, like Martin Ferguson, are gone,” she told Sky News on Thursday.

Nasty Christine’s intervention was a real buzz-kill given the emotional send-off Ferguson received, including from normally pugilistic Tony Abbott, who in his polite and gracious enthusiasm has argued Labor needs more MPs like traditional Labor life-long unionist and second-generation MP Martin Ferguson and no more unionist careerists like Paul Howes, whose life’s work and pro-jobs, moderate Labor values seem rather similar to Ferguson’s.

As it happens, the retiring former Minister Ferguson was born on December 12th, 1953, making him fifty-nine years young.

While Greens party boss Milne, fond of referring to the “old parties” despite being older than the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, was born May 14th, 1953, meaning she just turned sixty.>

http://www.vexnews.com/2013/05/old-timers-60-year-old-christine-milne-calls-59-year-old-martin-ferguson-an-old-stager/

OTB – I do not consider Paul1405 flame bait; do not speak on my behalf.

Your one eyed arrogance, ill-conceived superiority and hypocrisy over shadow any legitimate debate and opinion you may have.

Hi Producer,

I was a little over simplistic about monitory governments. We often forget that the Coalition is just that, a coalition between 2 parties. The "dominant" Liberal Party and the "subservient" National Party which without checking scores around 6% of the vote, but fortunately for them their supporters are concentrated in a small number of seats and thus they win a disproportionate number, including a swag in Queensland with the Liberals. The reliance on a 2nd party has lead to the Nationals, once known as The Country Party, having far more influence in government than they deserve. Their old time leader John 'Blackjack' McEwan going as far as vetoing the election of Billy 'Big Ears' McMahon as PM.

It is amusing to read Greens supporters holding forth in this thread. Of all of the political interests in Australia the Greens would have to be the very last to be concerned about seniors.

The only times the Greens Party seems to give any attention to the aged is to demand a return of death duty, to demand that the old be tipped out of their homes to make way for younger generation and to promote euthanasia of course.

With the Greens as sidekicks in the Gillard Labor government the kites were flown on all of the aforementioned and especially the elderly being required to sell their family home to pay for their aged care. Rather than lead lives of self-disciplined conservation and saving the old would have been better off having enjoyed themselves and squandered it all. Or so it seems.

Producer, what the hell does the *ethnic group* Australians being White have to do with “Terra Nullius”?

Whether Aborigines (who are not the *ethnic group* Australians) "owned" their land or not has nothing to do with the FACT that a distinct "people" developed here over the last few centuries with their own culture, a native offshoot/revision/evolution of British/European culture.
Those people are White.

Paul1405 "Didn't Jesse Owens disproved that for you in 1936, and The Fuhrer marched out of the stadium?"

Wrong on both counts.
One exceptional individual doesn't negate the general tendencies of "populations" as reflected in GDP-per-capita and HDI.

Running really fast doesn't exactly improve the GDP, does it?

The scene with Hitler is a deceptive edit used in anti-Nazi propaganda.
In the original Riefenstahl footage, he applauds.

Owens, along with all other winners, was invited to a reception at the Reich Chancellery, where Hitler shook his hand.

I bet you still believe in the skin lampshades.

American Blacks have 30% European DNA anyway, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if they excelled at some things.

"You forgot to tell that to the likes of Galmahra or Truganini."

Again (exasperated sigh), before British settlement there were no "Australians".
The term and concept/identity didn't exist.

There were many peoples, all with their own tribal names.
I'm not discussing them.

Yes, One Nation still exists and its vote have been diluted to the same extent as its policies.
They should be called One Nation Lite.
I didn't vote for them in 1998. I was still among the brainwashed sheeple then.

"Even when one side proposes minor changes, like a tax for example, it is met with strenuous opposition."

Precisely because of the two-party model.
Opposing for the sake of opposing.

A proportional system would encourage genuine debate and negotiation.
That would become the norm, not this Salt/Pepper posturing.

Now can either of you actually address my comments about our (that's "Australians" the White ethnic group, not Aborigines or naturalised aliens) right to exist and perpetuate our bio-cultural distinctiveness.

Or is stealth genocide acceptable in your "noble" philosophy?

Paul1405 – Simples good, more understand and there’s less noise.

For the record the makeup of the coalition is:

Liberal - 30.02%
LNP – 9.92%
The Nationals – 4.29%
Country Liberals - 0.32%
Giving them a total of 45.55% (a minority)

The minor parties of the coalition only have a disproportionate amount of power in the parliament because of the current preferential system is open to manipulation and rorting. It’s great for the major parties when it’s in their favour. When it isn’t such as the situation with the senate election they have a big grizzle. They want their cake and eat it to.

Anyway I said earlier: The green team would have the most to gain from a proportional system as it would have 13 seats in the House of Representatives. For the greens to support the current preferential system not only fails Australians, democracy but the green party itself.

I wouldn’t mind an insight on the green logic on this. The party did receive 8.65% of the vote and have only one representative.

Thanks for the enlightenment Shocker! So poor Adolf was just misunderstood.
"Owens, along with all other winners, was invited to a reception at the Reich Chancellery, where Hitler shook his hand."
He very well couldn't invite them to the Reichstag, in a fit of democratic zeal Adolf had the joint burnt down.
"I bet you still believe in the skin lampshades" sure do.

Beach, The Greens are a party of compassion towards our old folk. However in your case we could make an exception if you really insists.
In one post you will say Gillard said The Greens were the bad guys, and in the next post you say Gillard is a Fabian and you can't believe a word any Fabian says. You can't have it both ways.

Why all the huff and puff about what Christine Milne thought of Martin Ferguson, the bloke was a sell out, all for his own personal gain. Read about him, an opportunist is ever there was one. The bloke went as far as backing Abbott's 'Work Choices'.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-07/milne-ferguson-lobbying-code/4997304

Paul1405,

If only the Greens had given the aged a fraction of the support they gave to activism on gays and whales, huh?

The Greens leader stands convicted by her own words for trashing people as past it when they reach 60 or near enough. That doesn't apply to her though.

Now you admit that the very person Milne was bucketing as old and past it won a plum, responsible position on his own merit.

The Greens are just a protest party, for whom anything goes for a mean headline. It will be a very blue moon before the Greens give a hoot about the old.

Paul1405, to be misunderstood is accidental, unintentional.
To be misrepresented is deliberate fabrication.

The skin lampshades were debunked almost as soon as they appeared.

But I'm sure you don't bother to keep up with the *facts* about Nazis.

The myth is so much more useful, when your plan is to destroy all White people.

its funny how we deny the land dis Possessed
HERE IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN THE WEST/IN AMERIca..no less
and have a guess those refugees coming here aRE HERE CAUSE THEY DIDNT HAVE THE NEW AGE MEDIA Watching them

those you reject..HERE IS THE REASON
http://rss.infowars.com/20140414_Mon_Alex.mp3

RECALL NATIVE TITLE MUST SHOW 'ONGOING' CONTINUEANCE OF TRADITion]

well running away they[like our ancestors bfore us]..lost our laND RIGHTS]

THIS AUDIO IS LIKE THE EUREKA STOCKADE BUT WITH NO BLOOD SHED..no one died..and we recognize the same things that dROVE OUR PARENts away from kin and FAMILY..IS HAPPENING HERE YET AGAIN

BUT THIS TIME WE MOVED THEM..BACK IN
LETS AGREE WE NEED RETURN THEm home/inform THEM HOW THEIR CULTURE needs remain pure[for law claim/when we send them[AND OUR LAWYERS HOME]

WIN WIN//LETS JOIN FORCES..GET THEM BACK HOME again
safly..and paying us back for saving their heritage
[user pays]..BUT GET THEM HOME ASP/BEFORE THIS SCUM WIN AQGAIN

NEXT THEY CAME FOR US
http://rss.infowars.com/20140414_Mon_Alex.mp3
WE STAND AND FALL TOGETHER/here we won...spread THE WORD/THEY WANT us divided..PICK US OFF ONE BY ONE

EACH VICTIM TURNING UP ON Our shores is a king denied his estates culture and persONHOOD..ITS WRONG ALERTS agree send them homer

the NEW OCCUPY MOVEMENT IS FROW A BEARD
hear why..its LIKE HIGH-NOON OR EURIKA STOCKADE mosus out of EGYPT

But the little guy wins
http://rss.infowars.com/20140414_Mon_Alex.mp3

Beach, you bellyache some nonsense about The Greens claiming "If only the Greens had given the aged a fraction of the support..then its "The Greens leader stands convicted by her own words for trashing people as past it" The only person (note, not plural as in people) who deserved a trashing was Martin Ferguson, and Christine Milne dished out a trashing for a Labor sellout.
If you want to talk about pensioners how about a comment on 'Lying' Joe Hockey, who said before the election that pensions would remain unchanged under a Coalition Government. 'Lying' Joe is about to push the pension age to 70, making the Australian age 5 years above both Canada and the UK and 4 years above the US. It that how Abbott and Co show their support for our elderly and often disadvantaged pensioners. Could be another case of core and non-core promises. The core promise will see Abbott sticking 75 grand into the fat bank accounts of Liberal voting women, and the non core promise will see Abbott sticking it up the pensioners.

Shocker, great stuff. its okay to exterminate 6 million people, but don't turn any of them into "lampshades" people might not approve. If you rally want to get into peoples good books, just shake hands with an African American athlete, good PR.
Tell me, did the Nazi Holocaust take place? Or like your claim about "lampshades" is it just more anti-Nazi propaganda.

Paul1405,

I strongly agree that the middle class feminists whose feminist policy seems to hold sway in politics and in the media too if the ABC is any guide, should be held accountable for their demands. They were smart not to form a political party.

Greens Senator Sarah Hanson-Young is on record saying that the Greens supported the Coalition's scheme, but they would pay it at a bit lower level of $100,000 PA. But then the Greens have many comfortable middle class supporters don't they? Discriminatory for the women who are not in the public services who have received the mat leave benefits for years at their normal salary, and of course for women who are not in paid employment.

However if PPL is to be paid and I don't care either way as long as the electorate supports it and there is proper accounting for it, it is also discriminatory to reduce a worker's wage. Particularly when the women in the public services enjoy full pay.

I am on record as saying that I do not believe that PPL solves the 'needs' or attains the objectives used to justify it in the first place. If the Greens were 'keeping the bastards honest' as they claim at elections, they themselves would be questioning PPL itself and demanding accountability of the hidden feminist elite who advise such policy.

So there is no ambiguity or misquoting of Greens policy before the last election here it is;

The Greens’ plan for paid parental leave is more generous, achievable and equitable than the other parties' plans.
We will provide six months of paid leave at 100% replacement wage up to $100,000 per annum and superannuation contributions to ensure women are not disadvantaged later in life.
Two additional weeks of leave for dads and partners at 100% of their regular wage, capped at $100,000 per annum, which means the second parent, often dads, will have secure family time with their new child.

Our plan is funded by a 1.5% business levy on companies’ taxable incomes above $5 million, plus an achievable additional government contribution of $1.9 billion over the forward estimates.
We will make changes to workplace laws to make sure women have a stronger right to return to their jobs and to make sure low income and casual workers aren’t disadvantaged.

Beach, you always say The Greens are a protest party, yet here is clear policy on a sensitive issue.

Paul1405, "Tell me, did the Nazi Holocaust take place?"

What a shock! Didn't see that one coming.

I didn't say it was "okay to exterminate 6 million people".
I made reference to the false claim that lampshades had been made of human skin.
This is only one of many disproved, debunked claims.

We have been told so many lies about the Nazis (fat soap, shrunken heads, "death" camps that were later admitted to not be "death" camps, the Katyn Forest massacre), it is quite reasonable that people still question what *really* happened.

Nobody "denies" the Nazis did terrible things, they just want to know the facts.

<<..Nobody "denies" the Nazis did terrible things, they just want to know the facts.>>

THE WINNER WRITES THE HISTRY
THE JEWS WERE THE L;ast to get their assets seized
first they went after THE OLD FEEBLE/THEY KILLED THEM BY GAS MADE BY BAYER CORP[THATS THE SAME MPB THAT MADE NAPALM that killed 12 million japs just the same tIME AS NAGASAKI etc/nuke bomBs..etc

anyHOW FIRST THE SICK OLD FEEBLE
THEM THE HOMO THe homeless the insane then the jew

it was organised by the maters OF ZION /TON FILL THE HOLY LAND
IT WORKED..THEY BUILT THEIR 4 TH REICKE THANKS BE TO LOBBY OF usa for over 3 trilion of casH/GUNS TEQNOLOGY ETC ETC

THEY [USA GAVE THEM NUKES GAVE THEm nerve gas gave theM CLUSTER AND BUNKER BUSTER BOMBS..THEY DO huge evil things in the deserts..BUT NOT JUST USABRIAIN GAVE HEAPS GERMANY OF COURSE[LIE GERMAN GOLD THE Put into fort knox..athouSANDS OF TONE STOLEN[Sorry leased by the 12 bankers [AT 44 DOLLARS 44 CENTS THe oz]..to each other..that they sold into the market for up to 600..THAT GOLD IS THE REAL REASON BEHIND THE END TIME [ARMOGEDDON].WAR..but..the good guYS WONT LET THAT HAPPEN

But those who got rich by wartook over the world BY WAR
MAKE WAR NO MORE..[oh and the dead were worked to death
that set unipons tioemand fair woirk cONDITIONS

WORK MAKES free/but so many died tHEY TRIED TO BURN THEMPBUT IT TAKES 8 hourse to burn one..so one oven means 3 burnt per dat[THER LOST OVEns i saw was 10..so at best BURNING NON STOP THATS 30/PER day..times 5 years

thats a few thousand
they were worked to death
never the less they lamp shadessoaped kIlled MOTHERS BABIES STROLE SHOES SUITCASES/CAUSE I SEEN THE PHOTO'S..WHY WOULD THERY LIE/BUT JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO I LEARNED THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK WAS WRITTENJ BY A \GUY..dont ask WHY

Shocker. When it comes to the extermination of 6 million I fail to see the significance of the truth, or otherwise, of the 'lampshade story'.
"We have been told so many lies about the Nazis" is that so, put simply did the Nazi's exterminate 6 million as history claims or is that open to question, a simple yes or no will do. If it is yes then any other "questions" pale into insignificance as far as I;m concerned.

Of course it's open to question.
Questioning is not "denying".

Even the "official" figures by the "authorities" have been revised over time.

It's only the "6 million Jews" mantra, perpetuated by robots like yourself, that never changes.

Anything that ever happened in history should be open to question, especially if so many related claims about the same people/place/events have been proven false or exaggerated.

Maybe "history" courses shouldn't rely on facts at all, Paul.
Let's just make stuff up!

Genghis Khan was briefly King of England.
The Titanic didn't hit an iceberg, it was hit by a meteor.
Man's first flight was by Joan of Arc, in a home-built machine.

Isn't that so much more fun than boring old facts?

@Paul1405, Tuesday, 15 April 2014 9:37:00 PM

Thanks for your reply.

I am not going to niggle about funding and what other programs would need to be cut.

However I will say that I believe that the Greens are ill-advised to go swimming in the croc-infested swamp of feminist politics. PPL is a signature policy of the middle class feminist elite.

Other women would put universally available childcare and maybe child endowment and maternal&child clinics ahead. That is without mentioning better transport and family-oriented city design as biggies too.

I don't care of course, however I would like to see demonstrated value for money and believable, measurable, goals for attainment.

for those awaiting the exutionor

worry no more
judgment time begins 6 may..this year..at the brisbane court houset

so?oo many witness..it took 50,0000 years to exersoze just judgment?
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=koran+judgment+time+50%2C000++year

better too many are heard.in open court before a rep of hrh the queen..than not enough..

but i need TO AVOID THE trick questions
show up these know it all spirits..THAT EXPLOIT US LOOT AND PLUNDER UD....THEY DONT KNOW ANYTHING...its we workers that buld everything

govt can easy do better than the capitalists due
i dont need know who is who..anD THE TRIAL IS ABOUT FINDING OUR LOST MESSIAH AND THE OTHER BROTHER..[whos realm this is]

so i need get through the first day
withpout being declared nuts..tal about awaiting exicution

but im ready to die..so i must try to get to mardi grass/then back to the court 6 of may..its a silly concern..i wont get to trial either way

but if i do..i need people who must explain a few things
i hope iset the stage

but they will only make me look it up..its not fair i tells ya...np really its fine..try to break me..im still unsure i should go to the nimbin mardigrass..to ask for help with my court case..6 may

6 th of may=judment day
[now you see why..it takes ten [50]..thousand years

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6293&page=11

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=koran+jesus+messiah+judgment&

The reason behind the land grab is complex.
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/5-things-know-corporations-block-access-everything-miracle-drugs-science-research/

The US Government wants to sell fracking leases on that land but without sharing the lease payments with the lands’ rightful owners. One of Harry Reid’s major (illegal) donors is named Harry Whittemore, who has plans to commercially develop that land once the BLM transfers that land from public property to his private use. Harry Reid’s son, Rory, represents a Chinese energy firm that plans to put up a solar power plant in the area. They already acquired $38 million worth of public land for a mere $4.5 million.
http://rinf.com/alt-news/latest-news/bundy-paradigm-will-rebel-revolutionary-slave/
http://misguidedchildren.com/domestic-affairs/2014/04/diamond-bar-ranch-in-nm-seized-by-us-forest-service/19270

The rest of the land, and Obama is about to grab another 10 million acres through Execute Order, is being used to collateralize more government borrowing. This has been the norm since Nixon ended gold convertibility in 1970, and the world realized that the US did not have enough cold to cover all the loans. So Nixon created the Environmental Protection Agency which had little to do with the environment and everything to do with grabbing huge tracts of public (and sometimes private) land and locking it away from the American people to pledge (along with the mineral rights) as collateral for more government borrowing. Almost 1/3 of US public lands, technically the property of We The People, are now locked away and pledged as collateral on US Government debt.
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/6-reasons-corporations-fail-right-thing/

The incident at the Bundy Ranch has brought the issue of government land-grabbing into the spotlight, but the problem is ongoing and widespread, with hundreds of ranchers and farmers being forced from their land over the last several years, often with no compensation for their stolen property.
http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-seeks-conflict-with-russia-816/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/this-timely-documentary-may-shine-some-more-light-on-the-current-tensions-in-the-ukraine-syria-the-east-china-sea-archipelago/

http://www.newsforage.com/2014/04/42000-prosthetic-hand-outperformed-by.html