SPQR,

(Firstly, I think you should cut out the red cordial:)

Are you saying that in the case of "Iraq" that we didn't go in boots and all, bombing, maiming, destroying and destabilising?

All on the back of a lie?

A lie carefully crafted post-invasion to negate the WMD line, and replace it with an altruistic motive?

Dear SPQR,

While Belly might have the Southern Cross on his wall he also has the Stars and Stripes tattooed over his heart. You normally are capable of some semblance of objectiveness so this is what I would like you to ponder. Why did the handcuffed, tortured groups of bodies only start appearing in Baghdad and other towns after Steele was given the reins?

This is what I am contending.

This was really Rumsfeld's war, and like any neo-con he was determined to do it on the cheap.

Against the advice of respected Generals like Colin Powell, Rumsfeld invaded Iraq with far fewer men than were deemed necessary for the job, especially the aftermath.

He then stripped the Iraqi military and police forces of Baath party members, most of them Sunni, and tried to rebuild them from the ground up but carrying on the same mindset the training effort was understaffed and under resourced. Watch the video I in the story I linked to earlier. There were 6 US policemen who were tasked with rebuilding the police force of 30,000 Iraqis within 18 months. Simply not do-able.

After the first year it became apparent that that strategy was not working. Those Iraqis who were trained by US military and civilian men showed little desire to fight and the resistance/insurgency was getting stronger. Attacks on the coalition forces were growing there was wide spread unrest.

Basically there were two options, dramatically increase troop numbers and training personnel or go to a cost effective option that worked well in El Salvador. Steele was hand picked by Rumsfeld and he set to work setting up paramilitary units, one of which was lead by a Sunni and former Saddam general. Originally designed to gather intelligence and provide a disciplined and effective Iraqi force that could be deployed quickly.

“Last summer, with the security situation deteriorating, some Iraqi and American officials began to argue that the time had passed for a ''clean hands'' policy that rejected most of the experienced people who had fought for Saddam Hussein.”

Cont..

Cont..

“The first official to take action was Falah al-Naqib, interior minister under the interim government of Ayad Allawi. In September, Naqib formed his own regiment, the Special Police Commandos, drawn from veterans of Hussein's special forces and the Republican Guard. As its leader, he chose General Adnan, not only because Adnan had a useful collection of colleagues from Iraq's military and security networks, but also because Adnan is Naqib's uncle.”

And as the situation deteriorated for the coalition toward the end of 2005 these groups essentially morphed into death squads. It was a co-ordinated culling of those fighting or helping with the resistance. By September of 2006 it had become a frenzy of killing.

May 4th 2006 “The bodies of 14 men, handcuffed and shot in the head and showing signs of torture, were found in the capital yesterday, police said.”
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bound-tortured-and-shot-iraq-toll-rises/2006/05/03/1146335804461.html

September 04, 2006 Police found the tortured, blindfolded bodies of 33 men scattered across the capital Monday
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/09/04/more-than-30-bodies-found-across-baghdad-7-iraq-coalition-troops-reported/#ixzz2YtRwP43S

September 13 2006
Police said Wednesday they found the bodies of 65 men who had been tortured, shot and dumped, most around Baghdad,
Associated Press

BAGHDAD, Iraq – police said they found 56 tortured bodies scattered around the Iraqi capital over the 24 hours before Friday morning, all the apparent victims of sectarian death squads.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/11/03/56-bodies-found-in-baghdad-4-gis-killed-in-attacks/#ixzz2YtVmKlyq

Except these were not really the victims of 'sectarian' death squads. Note the same theme, bound – often handcuffed, brutally tortured, and executed by a bullet to the head. These were the victims of intelligence gathering outsourced by the Americans to Steele's groups.

So SPQR to refute this you would need to show me where this type of group killings were occurring before mid 2005.

I'm not saying all of the 3,000 bodies a month that were turning up across Iraqi cities were from Steele' squads but I contend the vast majority were.

What we were being told was Muslim on Muslim sectarian violence was, as I said, a vast culling of the resistance by death squads, organised, selected, trained and resourced by Steele and his cohorts.

Poirot,

<<Are you saying that in the case of "Iraq" that we didn't go in boots and all, bombing, maiming, destroying and destabilising?>>

The use of the term <<boots and all>> connotes a fight without rules or restriction. And dispute the best pretensions of the left this is in no way an accurate description of how the US went into or operated in either Iraq or Afghanistan -so yes, I am saying we did not go in <<boots and all>>.

<<A lie carefully crafted post-invasion to negate the WMD line, and replace it with an altruistic motive?>>
Was it fool hardy --yes.
Was it a waste of manpower and money--perhaps yes.
But as for being <<a lie>> Bush and Co have had to know it wasn't true, and I'm not sure they did-- but I am open to persuasion

Csteele without making it up, I could post 100 posts about the wrongs of America here.
Maybe 1.000 but in the end I could, without lying tell of that many good things the have done.
Put any country that was once holder of colony,s, do not leave the Ottoman Empire out.
Truth be known, while I support much of Americas actions.
I would rather be a road kill Kola bear than yank.
We will never get on you and I we differ so very much,you are as unlikely to find *ANY THING WRONG, WITH ANY MUSLIM *as I am to win the lottery without a ticket.
Such blindness to the pain, tragic pain women and children, some times every one, in most Muslim country,s suffer.
And in the name of a God that never existed.
One day from within the Muslim faith a leader will come and lead part of his people to freedom, despite the efforts of folk like csteele who see,evil only in the west.

CSteele,

I looouved the way you introduced your post: <<... You normally are capable of some semblance of objectiveness>>

More please--but lay it on stronger next time-- the word semblance is far too weak.

<<This was really Rumsfeld's war, and like any neo-con he was determined to do it on the cheap>>

Perhaps, the US seems to do most things at bargain basement prices these days

<<So SPQR to refute this you would need to show me where this type of group killings were occurring before mid 2005>>

When Saddam lost power all the old controls were removed.Of course there was a spike in violence until a new pecking order/hierarchy was established(Look at "experts" have prophesized will happen to the Alawites, Christians and others in Syria if the Assad administration goes!).

Could it have been avoided through better planning and implementation under a democratic --open to everyones nitpicking and sniping -Western administration --it's highly doubtful

Could it have been avoided by a no-fuss authoritarian administration --absolutely!

<<elected, trained and resourced by Steele and his cohorts>>

Ah ha! therein lays his big mistake!
Never hire anyone whose names numerological value comes to anything less that five --six is Ok --- seven is perfect!
http://www.paulsadowski.com/NameData.asp