Two weeks ago on the road I listened to a segment about the middle east.
A seemingly well informed commentator from that part of the world was on ABC Radio National.
He claimed only two Nations Israel and Iran are stable.
And that all others are fighting to stay together.
Seems very true this morning.
Egypt is in trouble and we need no reminder about Syria and just maybe Lebanon.
Shiite vs Sunni, and another splitter too seems only part of the problem.
Maybe the biggest part with the shootings and bombing but Islamic tensions trouble most Muslim country,s too.
So one of the many impacts maybe refugees, but a far bigger war involving even the west looks possible.

Right now the US have 150,000 troops in the field with another 50,000 undisclosed in other operations. The West is there now, the west started it. The west even gave itself a black eye and a cut lip via the 911 hoax to gee up the troops, give them something to fight for.

The micro agenda from America is suppression but the macro agenda is escalation, and that is what Obama is doing with Syria. This all started with the Coalition of the Willing…remember that…more than a decade ago.

Belly discounting the self serving involvement of the West in the Middle East, would there be peace if the West pulled all troops out….my opinion is no, Semitic people are clannish as well as nationalistic....a trait we could use use in the etnically shattered first world.

SOG while I understand past [British French] interference has had an impact,America now so you claim..
Just what do you put this mornings headlines down to?
I am unaware of any western
involvement in the internal Muslim against Muslim killings.
Events make the thread timely and I am waiting with interest for views of others.

Belly>> Just what do you put this mornings headlines down to?
I am unaware of any western
involvement in the internal Muslim against Muslim killings<<

Belly during the Cold War the Yanks and the Ruskies took opposing sides in all conflicts. The premise for the stance was simple, you were ideologically opposed to the faction that has the support of your nemeses, and the Middle East was no different.

This policy saw America opposing one faction in one Arab nation while supporting the same faction in another. One example is how America supported the Taliban against Russia, but is now fighting them in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

We have seen via Sadam Hussein how you can be an instrument of American control one day as in the Iran/Iraqi war and their enemy the next…and it has nothing to do with how you treat your citizens. There is no moral stance to America’s actions; they are based on the needs of the globalists that the American administration is puppet to.

Regarding Egypt… Before the Muslim Brotherhood gained control with 51% of the plebiscite Mubarak had been for three decades the well-paid enforcer for the US and Israel, sealing off Gaza from the outside world and preventing aid flows across the Egyptian border, helping Israel to continue oppressing the Palestinians and stealing their country. The Arab Spring which began with the American installed puppet leader in Tunis getting the bullet brought about free elections and Mubarak went.

Like Yemen and Jordan the military in Egypt has been the recipient of vast amounts of funds from the Yanks, I expect that flow stopped when the Muslim Brotherhood took over a year ago and that is what I believe motivated the generals to put their noses in. Always follow the money, or lack of it.

Belly my china, the theme of your thread is will the Arabs find cohesion given the social dysfunction that the sects bring to a religion….no, but America is certainly the great Satan in this play.

not to many decades away from seeing the same rubbish in Britian.

That America has any real involvement in the Egyptin conflict is blatent Islamic lies. The problem is Democracy is not understood by Islam and they only want one voice one law. The majority rule does not accomodate other minority voices and that is the problem. The Egyptian opposition will not accept the rule of shari'ah which the Government wish to impose.

It is Western democratic freedoms which America has; that is the conflict.

Dear sonofgloin,

The US and the USSR did not take opposite sides in all issues during the Cold War. In 1948 when Israel fought the Arabs in its War of Independence both the US and the USSR backed Israel while Britain and France backed the Arabs. The colonial powers already in the Middle East backed the Arabs while those wanting to establish themselves in the Middle East backed the Israelis. The Korean War was backed by the UN Security Council. The Soviet did not veto the authorisation. It apparently was quite happy to see the US take on North Korea and China even though China and North Korea were ostensibly part of the Communist bloc.

Where nations have common interests they may be acted on even though those nations are in general opposed.

Dear Belly,

The following link is worth a read:

http://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/cps/rde/xchg/bst_engl/hs.xsl/nachrichten_114948.htm

Josephus>> That America has any real involvement in the Egyptin conflict is blatent Islamic lies<<

Josephus, I am certainly not a defender of Islam, Islamic migration or Semitic cultures in general.
But you’re going to get more truth from Al Jazeera than you are from Fox or Reuters tiger.

Who can we believe….none of them really, but especially not the US administration.

The revolution in Egypt was brought about by years of "reform" wherein the World Bank and the IMF in cahoots with Mubarak poked and prodded and privatised that country.

Egypt was the World Bank's "top reformer" in 2010.

The only problem was that the general population saw none of the benefits which were funnelled into the pockets of the ruling elite and offshore to corporate entities.

So eventually they reacted, then revolted and, as is the way with these things, went to a diametrically opposed solution.

Egypt has been one of the more progressive Islamic countries, and this latest "readjustment" brings them back into line with a less fundamentalist political ideology.

David f>> The US and the USSR did not take opposite sides in all issues during the Cold War. In 1948 when Israel fought the Arabs in its War of Independence both the US and the USSR backed Israel while Britain and France backed the Arabs. The colonial powers already in the Middle East backed the Arabs while those wanting to establish themselves in the Middle East backed the Israelis.<<

You are right David.

David f>> The Korean War was backed by the UN Security Council. The Soviet did not veto the authorisation. It apparently was quite happy to see the US take on North Korea and China even though China and North Korea were ostensibly part of the Communist bloc.<<

Right again, but Communist bloc or not China and Russia were certainly not mates at that time and their “split” even affected the Australian Communist Party…..members asked each other “are you Chinese commo or Russian commo.

David f>> Where nations have common interests they may be acted on even though those nations are in general opposed.<<

There are always exceptions David, but exceptions do not define the character

Dear sonofgolin,

I think this banner photographed in Tariq Square probably spells it out quite well;

http://i.imgur.com/n7Kh7qu.jpg

Dear Lexi,

The article you referred to left out several big sources of conflict in the Middle East. The Muslim world is not united. It is separated into a number of sects and ethnicities. Sunni vs. Shiite, Alawite vs. Sunni, Christian vs. Muslim, Kurd vs. Arab, etc. Not only is there a multiplicity of ethnicities and sects, but there is also a conflict between traditional and modernising elements. That was referred to in "The ongoing challenges posed by the Arab revolutions in countries as diverse as Egypt and Syria." In addition to those sources of conflict there is also a military establishment which has its own independent power bases.

http://i.imgur.com/n7Kh7qu.jpg

Yes csteele, a sentiment that goes all the way back back to the United Fruit Company.

Dear David F.,

Thank you for the extra information.
The link I cited earlier - I had just discovered
and thought it worth a read. However if you can
supply a better one, I'd be most eager to read it.

This is a peoples revolution against the introduction of shari'ah law.
Shari'ah and Western freedoms cannot coexist. Under shari'ah minorities are supressed and hated as lesser people. Western democracy accomodates the equality of all people.

This is a people's revolution against legal supression. The election appeared democratically as the Muslim population are in the majority but the tribal view of shari'ah means a ruling political class. Islam will seek to implement this agenda in all democratic countries as Muslim populations increase. Our view of democracy is not majority rule, but equality of all. Tribal rule is the problem in the Middle East.

Dear Lexi,

I doubt that there is one link that cites all the causes of conflict in the Arab and Muslim world. Your link was a good one, and I just cited some additional causes of conflict. One source of conflict that I didn't mention was water. Turkey's consideration of dams along the headquarters of the Tigris and Euphrates puts it an a collision course with Iraq and Syria as does Ethiopia's prospective dam building on the Nile put it on a collision course with Egypt. When oil supplies dwindle and Saudi Arabia and other oil producing states don't have the wherewithal to import food to feed their people what will happen? Another source of conflict is the high birth-rate. Where can they export all the surplus population? Possibly the combined air forces of the technically advanced powers could drop an edible and tasty combination of dietary supplement, aphrodisiac and contraceptive packets in the area.

Dear David F.,

I'm going to have to read more on this topic.
It's so complex. I've placed several books on
reserve at my regional library. Several caught
my eye. Amongst them was Noam Chomsky's ,
"Middle East illusions," and Dan Smith's
"The State of the Middle East: An Atlas of conflict
and resolution." Hopefully I'll get a better
understanding on what's occurring over there and why.

Runner, not too many years away from seeing the same rubbish in Australia!

Dear Lexi,

Unfortunately nations pursue their interests or the interests of influential groups within their nation without thought of the consequences. In my opinion the biggest mistake the US has made in the Middle East was the US CIA and the British M16 sponsored coup in 1953 which turfed out Mossadegh and installed the Shah. The Shah was eventually overthrown and the present government resulted. Mossadegh nationalised Iranian oil, and the oil companies objected. If the US and the other countries with oil interests had just accepted Mossadegh's act and let the Iranians control their own oil things would be very different. They wound up controlling their own oil anyhow, but it could have simply been accepted earlier, and the result could have been an Iran with which we are at peace.

Mossadegh was an author, administrator, lawyer and prominent parliamentarian. He became the prime minister of Iran in 1951. His administration introduced a wide range of progressive social and political reforms such as social security, rent control, and land reforms. He seems much better than any national leader in the Middle East since then.

Another mistake was backing Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran. Then several years later Saddam Hussein became the great enemy.

It is a shame.
That this subject has slipped in to a blame the west one.
I could without raising a sweat, put a good blame it on France And Briton product together.
And take the root causes back 150 years ago.
Why then did the west help Libya?
Why are they considering help for Syria?
I rather think others things TOO can take the blame, for such hate.
Women and men Children and the old, innocents dieing by bomb car bomb to be precise.
If we get stuck on the whys how will it end?
If we blame the west why is Russia so involved?
What is the answer, our leaving Iraq only left them in todays troubled near civil war position.
Will Afghanistan, a Muslim but not middle east country face the same?
If we look for causes but not answers can we see and end to it?.

Dear Belly,

We are not responsible for all the mess, but we can acknowledge our responsibility. A lot of the blame rests on religion both ours and their's. Religion is great for giving a sense of unity and purpose. It is terrible for adapting to a changing world and looking at the world outside ourselves and our group. One thing the west can do and probably won't do is stop sending missionaries. Another thing we can do is support education for the region in general and girls in particular.

http://kasesehumanistschool.webs.com/ is the address of the Kasese Humanist School in Uganda where children can get an education free of religious indoctrination of any sort. My wife and I sponsor a girl there.

We do have to acknowledge our responsibiity.

I mentioned pressure from such organisations as the World Bank. These things are happening in the modern world and are all intimatly connected with globalised capitalisation.

While Egypt was being named one of 2010's top performers, food prices were steadily rising for the general population. Here's a country being given a A1 tick buy globalised powers, where ordinary people are scratching around trying to buy bread.

http://anilnetto.com/corporate-led-globalisation/imfworld-bank/egypt-followed-imfworld-bank-ideas/.

http://www.doingbusiness.org/reforms/top-reformers-2010/

It's still happening - as in this case from Liberia (another "top reformer" from the 2010 list)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/liberia/10104422/Liberia-and-the-vanishing-rainforest.html

If the World Bank and the IMF wish to do business with these countries, then they should do it better than funnelling money from "economic reforms" to the elite at the expense of the general population. Such behaviour is liable to get you a revolution, one that will head in exactly the opposite direction from that which you would prefer.

We, as Westerners, represented by globalised capitalism in the form of organisations such as the World Bank, IMF and WTO, do share responsibility for the destabilisation of many of these countries

Dear Poirot,

Globalised capitalised and religion are intimately related. Their relationship is complex.

http://www.mpifg.de/pu/mpifg_dp/dp12-2.pdf contains a study of the relationship.

Societies that are based on the principle that "Might has the right to rule", is indemic in the Arab mind. The bigger the tribe they have the right to subdue the lesser. This brings pain, servitude and death to the lesser. The Arab culture is evident in the writings of Mohomet. It is legitimate to kill infidels and those of other faiths (kafir}, to take women as sex slaves and place special taxes on non muslims.

Western minds influenced by the Judeau-Christian view that all persons are equal and to be valued is not understood by the Islamic world. Western minds are guided by a moral law, Arab minds by a sense of shame.

Dear David F.,

I used to worry why Islamic fundamentalism intensified
at all - especially at a time when we might expect the
societies involved to be moving forward, toward
modernisation, rather than backward, towards tradition.

A friend of mine - a sociologist explained that
fundamentalist revivials, in whatever religion, take
place in times when social changes have led to
turmoil, uncertainty, and the erosion of familiar values.
When people find themselves confused, threatened, or
even appalled at changing conditions. They may see a
"return to basics" as a solution.

It's not surprising, therefore, that Islamic
fundamentalism has surged in societies like Iran, which
have experienced wrenching social change as a result of
their oil wealth. Some of these societies had previously
remained culturally fairly static for generations - then
in less than the space of a single life span, they were
thrust into a world of airports, highways, schools,
and television, factories and power plants.

As part of of this process, some of the Islamic societies have
been flooded with foreign advisers, officials, and
entrepreneurs. In the view of the fundamentalists, foreigners,
especially from the West, are often seen as a profoundly immoral
and corrupting influence. The principal foreign enemy of
the fundamentalists is the "Great Satan," the United States.

I guess fundamentalists find it politically helpful to have
an alien enemy. It enhances the solidarity of of any
community, if it perceives a common out-side threat.

Then of course there's also the conditions in their own
countries. Most Muslims are desperately poor. Their nations'
oil wealth has often been unequally shared, creating a new
elite whose lifestyle arouses deep resentment in the
populace. As you pointed out the 1979 Iranian revolution,
in which the shah, a deeply unpopular ruler was perceived as
an American puppet, was deposed through a movement led by
Shiite Muslim clergy.

I guess it is safe to say that Islamic fundamentalism,
arises out of specific social
and cultural conditions, and may then, in turn, influence
the subsequent course of social change.

What happens next, we'll have to wait and see.

My view is there was no organized opposition party in Egypt prior to the people's revolution as all opposition was brutally crushed. In the election in the power vacuum that followed, only the Muslim Brotherhood was organized and effective in campaigning and won a ruling majority accordingly. Its religious based excesses in power and its ineffectiveness over the economy has lead to the mass protests and subsequent military intervention.

The next election, soon I hope, will not see the Brotherhood gaining anything like the 51% of votes it won last time but it may well form a coalition in which its behaviour is moderated by its partners. The economy is a hard matter for whoever wins power.

Josephus,

Your version of the Judeo-Christian view seems to have failed this guy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

But it was never about "ending tyranny".

It was about sticking their bib into another country to gain major influence over resources.

Dear Josephus,

Every time I read your posts I am reminded of the Elders of Zion slander against the Jewish people.

It is difficult to come to any conclusion other than you are engaged in a similar style of demagoguery of the people who follow Islam.

Just look at some of your sound bites;

“blatent(sic) Islamic lies”...”Democracy is not understood by Islam”...”It is Western democratic freedoms which America has; that is the conflict.”...”Islam will seek to implement this agenda in all democratic countries as Muslim populations increase.”...”the principle that "Might has the right to rule", is indemic(sic) in the Arab mind”...”Western minds are guided by a moral law, Arab minds by a sense of shame.”...”take women as sex slaves and place special taxes on non muslims”.

These are not applicable to the vast majority of the Muslim population of the world nor are they applicable to the vast majority of the Arab population. There is a recognition that support of despotic regimes in the Middle East by the world's superpowers for the purpose of obtaining a secure supply of un-naturalised oil has been a feature of that part of the world for the last 100 years. The Arab spring uprisings have revealed just how much the populations of these countries want the freedoms of democracies.

You however are set on slandering those efforts.

Why?

What is your agenda?

Whose interests are you looking to protect?

Some truths are not finding air here.
Pre-America being a world power, Imperialism saw many miss use other country,s.
Not all of those are as dysfunctional as the middle east is right now.
IF America and the west is to blame, why is say the Philippines not falling apart.
What role is America playing that make Muslim hate Muslim and deaths come as a result.
I have fun! in watching the anti west contributors commit the very crime they charge us with.
Blind Bias.
Many things have lead to this is there ever a chance Democracy is not the way to bring harmony.
Should we have left Iraq to kill its minority's with poison gas?
Did we do wrong in helping Libya stop being murdered.
The religion is the reason some kill others.
And too it is used to target in their Gods name others at the place of worship, today is death day.
Day prayers are held and the deaths take place.

Belly,

Are you intimating that Iraq is better off now?

Having had it's infrastructure blasted into the dark ages, it's people traumatised and scattered to neighbouring countries and further afield, bombings every other day?

The US was happy to do business with Saddam when they knew he was gassing Iranians.

They should have known they'd be a huge vacuum in the wake of their invasion - a vacuum that still exists.

They poked their nose in for influence over resources under the guise of altruism, the US action destabilised this country.

Here's what happens when countries are destabilised by external forces.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-05/iraq-bloodshed-surge/4796218

csteele,
Where do you get the idea I slander the Jewish people? I have a nephew a Orthodox Rabbi and several members of family. Most Jews have lived in Western society. The Government of Israel is democtatic in Western style values even involving members who oppose the State of Israel.

Poirot are you then inferring we should not have both installed Saddam and removed him?
Are the current troubles a result of the west?
17 deaths in Egypt over night.
Crowds after prayers, milling in the street.
Muslim brother hood calling for martyrdom.
Hate in the pure rage on both sides, and spitting on western camera men.
Why is the much trampled on south African continent not this bad?
Why not us?
Why suffered in our formative years from a British Imperialism that was just plain cruel.
India, home of Gandhi, fought for every right we take for granted why has that not left them victims of the west.
Poirot it is my view the old left is lost, forever.
I was part of a left that would have cried about inequity's that today seem orphaned.
The dead clothing workers, the life of women all over the third world.
And the victim making, taking any anti west thought and building a well of ignorance to let the west take the blame.
Accountability and, the very freedom to be educated without being indoctrinated by a fantasy religious view that kills cultures, and harms its followers.

Belly old mate,

You aren't going to get much from sense from Poirot. Although she will vehemently deny it she has a deeply entrenched anti-Western mindset.

In her reading of Genesis the West was the snake in the Garden of Eden.

______________________________________________

Poirot,

<<Here's what happens when countries are destabilised by external forces>>

Yes, yes, yes -- soooo much neater to have a megalomaniacal dictator keeping things in check.

An ironclad guaranteed of no strikes, no protests, and no Shites or Kurds causing a nuisance --BRAVO!

Belly, SPQR,

It doesn't really matter which way we argue this. On both sides there will be examples that don't hold water.

Mubarak is also an example of a megalomaniac who kept things in check, - backed by the West.

The West does business with these "megalomaniacs" depending on the West's agenda at the time.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

(Interestingly, the above article touches on the muted response by the US to Iraq targeting Iranians with chemical weapons - Reagan's initial response to that was to send out a directive to heighten cooperation to protect oil facilities. These were the administration's priorities)

Says it all really.

Hi Belly,

Many years ago I was based in the M.E for about twelve years. I worked in Lebanon, Syria, Israel, UAE and Saudi Arabia. Based upon that experience I formed some opinions that are not shared by the western media.

I was also in Egypt and North Africa until September 2011. During a wonderful trip down the Nile on a Felucca, we enjoyed many discussions with our guide Ahmed.

Ahmed is a devout Muslim and prayed daily on our trip. As discussions became more intimate an exchange of profound feelings deepened. We still exchange emails regularly.

What Ahmed and I share is our reality but based upon my understanding of the M.E. and his experience, we remarkably came to express similar conclusions.

Ahmed is University educated as an Archeologist, as is his wife. He privately expressed his grief that his sister in law, married to a Muslim Brotherhood member, had convinced his wife to “try out the Burqa”, it never came off again in public. He is devastated because his wife was previously westernized as much of Egypt was.

Given this introduction I can share our perspectives on M.E issues.

That the Muslim world has been divided and variously at war with itself since the 7th century. The M.E. has been the victim of occupation by external and internal forces for six thousand years. That none of the aggressors are better or worse than the conflict within Islam. That particularly because of WWI and WWII, the allies variously departing, left inconvenient national boundaries that cut across cultural, ethnic, religious, economic and history. They also put in place or endorsed leaderships that they saw as best able to mange both the west’s interests and the interests of their regions.

This led to the evolution of three types of dictatorships, military, religious and benign (Royal families). Because the peoples of this region are primarily interested in having social justice, equity, education and strong economies, which is what they perceive the west to have, they have long agitated for progress against their dictatorships.

Cont’d

Cont’d

This agitation has been harnessed by fundamentalism which is on the one hand seen as a means of achieving self determination and development, on the other hand it is seen as more divisive and conflict driven that the dictatorships under which they exist. This is primarily because fundamentalism has become directed against the west and the very aspirations many in the regions share, hence the Middle East’s schizophrenia.

This schizophrenia is further compounded by political, economic and social meddling, not only by the west but also by fundamentalism, opportunist states and regimes within the M.E.

One of the great tragedies of modern times and one of the greatest evils perpetrated upon the peoples of the underdeveloped nations, is the notion that their pain, suffering and poverty is a direct result of the policies, oppression, domination and power of the developed world, when in fact, it is a direct result of the policies, oppression, domination and power of their own leadership that is the primary cause.

They don’t have any macro solutions to offer and micro solutions can only be achieved by each nation doing whatever it can without external or sectarian interference.

My colleagues are critical of our progressive media. Their historical ignorance, lack of objectivity and political posturing makes things much worse for them They see our media as supporting radicalization and rogue regimes, not because of any concern for the M.E. peoples, but because it suits their anti-Israel posturing. They see this as unforgivable and an impediment to their own progress.

So when you post that << A seemingly well informed commentator from that part of the world was on ABC Radio National. He claimed only two Nations Israel and Iran are stable. >> It is a blinding glimpse of the obvious that the ABC is utterly ignorant and clueless. It is clear that Iran and Israel are part of the M.E. trauma and inseparable from it. Unless you are an ignorant, eyes wide shut reporter from the ABC.

This article by Chris Martenson summarises the biophysical statistics behind Egypt's predicament

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2011-02-10/egypts-warning-are-you-listening#

In 1960, the population of Egypt was about 28 million, and they were self-sufficient in food. Now the population has nearly tripled, and they have to import 40% of their food and 60% of the grain that provides most of their calories. Egypt can no longer subsidise food by exporting oil. Oil production has gone into dramatic decline, and they now have to import oil for their own needs. Food prices on the world market have been extremely high since 2008.

http://www.fao.org/worldfoodsituation/foodpricesindex/en/

As Martenson says:

"Any country that has to import both oil and food is living on borrowed time."

No imaginable government will be able to bring down food prices in Egypt or solve the massive unemployment problem, so massive social discontent will continue. The extreme Islamism is a symptom, not a cause.

SPQR and spindoc from far different back grounds and thoughts we agree and understand each other in many matters.
This enforces a truth few can ignore, most, by far the most, of our country men and women think as we do.
We in looking for answers must not ignore the great differences that exist between not only us and residents of Muslim Nations, but between them selves.
Why the rage? Muslim against Muslim?
How did it ever become OK to car bomb each other.
How do we in the west get blamed for it.
Even as troops died to free such as Iraq, why do some love us others hate?
Why is our ever shrinking true left unwilling to stop blaming us and truly look for answers.
The intellectual self satisfied, we have them here, good morning csteele, are owners of closed minds.
Even in the deepest of despair at third generation Australians playing the roll of Toy Muslim haters, I know not all Muslims are like that.
What a shame the true left fails to see, sometimes we dig our own holes.

Fundamentalist Muslim children are brain washed from infancy that the Law of Allah {shari'ah} is the rule of life and any who do not observe it fall under the judgment of Allah and must be put to death. They bring shame to the name of Allah. Their education system is indoctrination of hatred by the use of songs and poetry for any non fundamentalist. The higherst goal a person can achieve is martodom killing kafir. That includes anyone influenced by Western Democratic freedoms. America being the GREAT SATAN.

Well said.
Even within the Muslim comunity[ thankfully] many are aware SOME teachings are a danger.
Not all Muslims kill other Muslims.
While we debate who is at fault just what are the likely out comes from this Arab Winter.
Will Dictatorships take the place of Arab spring?
Will some Nations again fall and become part of others.
In my first post I spoke of a claim only Israel and Iran are stable country,s in that part of the world is that true.

Israel has a stable Democratic Government and the country is prosperous, but sections in the south are constantly bommed from Gaza. Weapons are smuggled into Gaza by underground tunnels. The bommings are about 8,000 each year which only gives 15 seconds to seek cover from indiscriminate rockets entering Israel. That averages about 24 each day which distresses everday life and terifies the children. My brother who travelled through Lebanon, Israel and Egypt recently, said that only Israel would appear as a first World country.

Belly,

Saudi Arabia is stable....(so are the Gulf States)

It's a "friend" of the West and is rich.

It's not a democracy.

It doesn't bestow its women autonomy.

And, most importantly.....

It wasn't invaded as retribution for its part in the funding of 9/11.

P'rot.

Perhaps some clues might be found in the below:

How many of its neighbours has Saudi invaded in recent years?

How many times has Saudi given WMD inspectors the runaround?

How many thousands did the King of Saudi shoot and bury in shallow graves in the desert?

And this is a dastardly, devious bit of a Poirotism:<<It wasn't invaded as retribution for its part in the funding of 9/11>>

What funding and involvement there was, was done by private citizens --NOT at govt level.

Hope that helps!

SPQR,

Got that - so Iraq was invaded in 2003 because it invaded Kuwait in 1991.

What's your point about WMD inspectors...you know, the one's who were ignored when they found diddly-squat in Iraq?

You are right about private Saudi investment in 9/11....most of the hijackers were Saudi too, weren't they?

As I've pointed out, why did the US turn a blind eye to Saddam's "crimes" when he was beating up the Iranians.

I'm not defending, Hussein, merely pointing out that invasions don't rest on altruism,....they rest on whether or not it's fundamentally in the economic interest of the US.

P'rot,

<<so Iraq was invaded in 2003 because it invaded Kuwait in 1991>>

That is a pretty good call. If he hadn't invaded Kuwait in all likelihood he would not have set in motion a chain of events that led to his ousting.Actually what Saddam did in invading Kuwait was a statesman like gamble. Had he pulled it off, with Kuwait's and Iraq's hydrocarbons resources combined the resultant greater Iraq would have been a ME superstate and Saddam with be the uber-big man in the ME --but alas, poor Yorrick, he lost the gamble.

<<You are right about private Saudi investment in 9/11....most of the hijackers were Saudi too, weren't they?>>

But if we are damning ALL Saudi's because of the infinitesimal involvement you allude to, shouldn't we also be condemning ALL Muslims because of their H-U-G-E involvement in other mischiefs --I'll hold off condemning Moslems/Islam till I get your call on that!

<<What's your point about WMD inspectors...you know, the one's who were ignored when they found diddly-squat in Iraq?>>

Yes, but we didn't know that at the time --I doubt that even your omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent self knew that at the time --oh maybe you did, but you didn't tell any of us.In hindsight everyone is wiser. If Saddam had not played funny buggers with the inspectors he might have gotten away with it.

But having said all that, it might have been better to have put the time, money and persons we pumped into Iraq and Afghanistan into other more rewarding things like exploring and terraforming Mars and Venus.

SPQRm

"...but we didn't know that at the time..."

Well, yes we did.

That's why we sent in inspectors.

They came to the "conclusion" that there were no WMD's in Iraq.

The US and the Coalition decided that they would ignore the "inspectors" "findings" and invade anyway.

In fact, the whole fragile fictitious premise for the invasion was that Iraq had WMD's.

I would acquiesce to your line of thinking if the inspectors had been wrong - but they weren't.

The whole "let's send in inspectors and watch Saddam set them on a merry dance" was staged to show what a recalcitrant blighter Saddam was.

Why send in inspectors if their conclusions are ignored?

P'rot,

To counter any negative campaign/beat-up all Saddam had to do was open his doors to all.He might even have issued an invitation to US military inspectors(though that would have dented the huge macho image he was cultivating).

He was renowned for playing games. Remember during the first war how he gathered all his Western "guests" to his palace: implied thread -- bomb me and these will cop it!

What's the m bit in << SPQRm>>?

SPQR,

The "m" was me hitting the "m" instead of the ","

When all is said and done, the inspectors "inspected" and found no evidence of WMDs.

However, that didn't stop them from being invaded under the guise of ridding Iraq of WMDs.

It's pretty straight forward....and conveniently glossed over these days, as apologists for the invasion will tell you the invasion was to bring democracy and freedom to Iraqis and to rid them of a dictator.

That wasn't the official premise for the invasion.

Poirot,

Are these some of the WMD’s that Saddam didn’t have or use?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

spindoc,

We've already discussed chemical weapons...and the fact that the US knew Iraq was using them against the Iranians - and turned a blind eye to that practice when they were chums with Saddam.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

I note this from your article:

"During the lead-up to war in March 2003, United Nations weapons inspector Hans Blix had found no stockpiles of WMD and had made significant progress toward resolving open issues of disarmament noting "proactive" but not always the "immediate" Iraqi cooperation as called for by UN Security Council Resolution 1441. He concluded that it would take “but months” to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks....."

Poirot,

Saddam Hussein’s WMD types, arsenals and timelines.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/etc/arsenal.html

That was a strange comment.
That Egypt has a sound government.
Its current situation is the driver for this thread but not the only one.
Poirot will try almost any thing to side step the fact.
That is that under any oppression, and I am not unwise enough to say all these country,s have not been oppressed, we make our own beds.
Arabs are not all killing one another and some Muslim country,s are fairing much better.
As I traveled this morning in the bush my radio was on Radio National.
A story about those folk, thousands of them,who sing from the top of Holly places of whorship,was on, interesting.
But I see no way of avoiding what those folk them selves said, Islam is life for them in every way.
If not for that maybe they would progress, even after Poirot,s western Imperialism , if it still exists.
Not racist, just saying is the religion in part or whole the reason the middle east is suffering?

And still it spreads:

<<Nigeria suffered one of its bloodiest days as terrorists carried out a massacre on 42 children and teachers at a boarding school in the country’s insurgent-plagued north-east>>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/10163942/Extremist-attack-in-Nigeria-kills-42-at-boarding-school.html

And guess where their supplies come from?

<<Soldiers in northern Nigeria have uncovered a hidden arms cache that authorities there believe belonged to members of the Lebanese militant movement Hizbollah>>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/10090457/Nigerian-military-claim-to-have-discovered-Hizbollah-arms-cache.html

Spqr,

Yes a diabolically gruesome story of the action of "extremists".

We should go back even further on the trail and to the origin of those armaments.

Some countries make huge profits out of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry

All coming from the same vendors as those which blew up plenty of Iraqis.

Humans are savage beasties.

I think SPQR is wrong.
In using the word extremist.
Nigeria and the current murders in Iraq are every day events therefore maybe the word extremist is wrong, every day acts from ordinary people?
I am considering what I did on posting the thread.
What next? dismantling of Democratic governments seems one thing.
But more Dictators ships? murders? will refugee numbers sky rocket?
We are in one way or another going to see great changes in this part of the world.

Belly,

"...every day acts from ordinary people..."

What makes you say that the average Nigerian or Iraqi would commit a crime such as this as an everyday occurrence?

It's an atrocity committed by "extremists" - and would be seen as such by any fair-minded commentator.

Poirot you can not have it both ways.
You put the blame on the west for these events and I say that is not always true.
You challenge my view it is not just extremists but an all too common event.
Why then is it not also such in almost every country in the world.
Would we live with such without forcing some change?
On the evidence before us it is not uncommon in these country,s to see death of Muslim at the hand of Muslim.

Belly,

In no way do I put the "entire" blame on the West.

I do, however, acknowledge the West's part in destabilisation and in sometimes pushing economic imperatives which add to tensions between peoples.

To be totally honest Poirot I know and agree with you in that post.
I can for hours write about Britain's part, long before Americas rise, in that destabilization.
Any part of this world that has English footprints from Colonialism days is the same.
BUT I too can not get away from the truth.
These folk, the worst of them, take blame back *century,s* to the Crusades.
It in my view *is the dysfunctional nature* of SOME preachers of their religion that drives the troubles.
I am sure we both do not want it, but we are touching only the sides of a tragic event that can turn in to a massive death toll at any time.
Today followers of an elected government, one that seems to have a single objective, are proposing war.
Watch this space, that war if it comes has its roots in religion.

Dear Poirot,

Unfortunately I have a namesake, one James Steele, whose fingerprints are all over the death squad killings in Iraq that Belly and others are so quick to solely blame as Muslim on Muslim violence without Western involvement.

“Colonel James Steele is a US veteran of the "dirty wars" in Central America, during which he trained counter-insurgency commandos who carried out extreme abuses of human rights. Steele is also a veteran of the Vietnam war. From 1984 to 1986, during the Salvadoran Civil War, Steele operated as a counterinsurgency specialist and was a member of a group of United States special forces advisers to theSalvadoran Army. In 1986 he was implicated in the Iran contra affair. In 2004, early in the Iraq War, Steele was sent by Donald Rumsfeld to serve as a civilian adviser to Iraqi paramilitary Special Police Commando sknown as the Wolf Brigade.”
Wikipedia

Liveleaks reports;

“Ret. Col James Steele. Steele, whose title in Baghdad was Counselor for Iraqi Security Forces supervised the selection and training of members of the Badr Organization and Mehdi Army, the two largest Shi’ite militias in Iraq, in order to target the leadership and support networks of a primarily Sunni resistance. Planned or not, these death squads promptly spiralled out of control to become the leading cause of death in Iraq.”

“Intentional or not, the scores of tortured, mutilated bodies which turn up on the streets of Baghdad each day are generated by the death squads whose impetus was John Negroponte. And it is this U.S.-backed sectarian violence which largely led to the hell-disaster that Iraq is today.”

When a New York Times reporter was sent to speak Colonel Steele at the library that the notorious Wolf Brigade had turned into a detention centre the interview was “interrupted by the terrified screams of a prisoner outside”.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=70d_1357410021

There is deep Western involvement here and while the blame can not be totally laid at their feet a good part of it needs to be. People need to pull their collective heads out of their backsides and acknowledge that fact.

csteele,

I believe that the US invasion of Iraq was a war crime, and I did at the time. It is a pity that Bush et al. cannot be brought to trial for the invasion and for deceiving the American people and the people in allied nations. Nevertheless, most of the killing has been of Iraqis by Iraqis, generally along sectarian or ethnic lines. Such killings have been going on at least since the Neolithic, and probably long before. The archaeologist Prof. Lawrence Keely (University of Chicago) has grisly accounts of prehistoric massacres, some in Europe and some in other places, often long before the evil white man came on the scene. (See his book "War Before Civilization".) Your views come very close to denying the Iraqis moral agency. The Japanese and Germans didn't start killing each other on a grand scale when they were invaded at the end of World War II.

Divergence,

How dare they react the chaos and the widespread devastation of their basic and advanced infrastructure, the millions killed, maimed or scattered to neighbouring countries as refugees, the long long road back from decade-long sanctions, the power vacuum left in the wake of the invasion.....the patronising occupation.

But it's their fault that their society has trouble assimilating its circumstances.

Their moral agency is found wanting?

Sheeeesh!

It would be a very silly person who could not talk at length without lying about faults western country,s HAVE INFLICTED on the middle east and other parts of the world.
I am aware of them all, including csteeles reference, but unsure it ,while it exists, is true.

How hard would it be for my detractors to see that part of the world as it is?
And how hard to question why it is still so?
Are you folk saying those murdering each other are driven by history recent and long gone?
Then is there an intellectual difference in the average person there.
MANY country,s have been victimized in all history, England invaded and its beaten natives marginalized.
Poland and Hungry fought Russia! mice against Tiger.
Why run on auto killing each other still in the middle east?
I know why, others refuse to.
Enslaved to a religion that demands death.
The middle east is fast becoming a failed state, and is dragging us all in to a place not one of us wants to go.

Poirot,

<<How dare they react the chaos and the widespread devastation of their basic and advanced infrastructure, the millions killed, maimed or scattered to neighbouring countries as refugees, the long long road back from decade-long sanctions, the power vacuum left in the wake of the invasion.....the patronising occupation.>>

<<But it's their fault that their society has trouble assimilating its circumstances.>>

The German and Japanese people had exactly the same problems after World War II, but they didn't massacre each other.

In my statement about denying the Iraqis moral agency, I meant that you and csteele are effectively regarding the Iraqis as children, not as responsible adults who have to take responsibility for their decisions. If a child does something terrible, we blame the parents, but we in the West are not responsible if Shiites decide to kill Sunnis or vice versa.

Belly is right about this.

Here are two articles from major news organisations directly referencing the man.

The first from the Guardian also includes a one hour documentary about Colonel Steele.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/06/pentagon-iraqi-torture-centres-link

The second is Peter Maass' piece in the New York Times written in 2005.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/01/magazine/01ARMY.html?pagewanted=print

The end result of the actions of Steele in overseeing the establishment, recruiting and training of these death squads was up to 3,000 tortured and mutilated bodies turning up in Iraqi streets every month, all so very reminiscent of El Salvador.

John Green in The Guardian;
“The photo of US Col James Steele with your article on the involvement of US covert forces in torture in Iraq awakened chilling memories for me (Report, 7 March). I came across Steele while filming a documentary in El Salvador in 1982. This was at the height of the dirty war and the targeted assassination of anyone deemed to sympathise with those attempting to bring democracy to this impoverished Central American country. We met Steele at Robert d'Aubuisson's office and his behaviour clearly indicated he knew his way around and had the aura of a man in charge. He certainly had close links with the rightwing death squads linked to d'Aubuisson, who was held responsible for the assassination ofArchbishop Romero. Steele smilingly refused to be interviewed by us. The evidence of horrendous torture and killing of thousands of innocent peasants in El Salvador clearly did no harm to his career. His official posting to Iraq shows that US covert policies have not changed.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2013/mar/07/el-salvador-to-iraq

So who was Robert d'Aubuisson whom Steele was consorting with? He was an El Salvadorian army major who was “a leader of right-wing death squads who tortured and killed thousands of civilians before and during the Salvadoran Civil War. To political prisoners, he was known as "Blowtorch Bob", due to his frequent use of a blowtorch in interrogation sessions.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_D'Aubuisson

There are those here who will close their eyes to these facts since in their minds the US can do little wrong but imagine just for a moment what you would do if the body of one of your family members was returned to you showing evidence of extreme torture.

Belly. Divergence,

Who'd a thought it was all so simple?

The US and its allies (us included) go in boots and all, the aggressors, bombing, maiming, destroying and destablilising......

And you two are waxing lyrical on what type of people these Iraqi's (see "anyone of Middle-Eastern extraction")must be!

Thanks for the new slant on Western arrogance.

Tomorrow morning we will again here about after Friday prayers deaths.
Muslim will kill Muslim.
And some how the left will blame America and the west for it.
Once the left contributed to a better world.
Forget the red neck rants,it did.
Even communism, throttled by its users was born from a wish for a better world.
What has become of the left left? true left?
They hunt in empty paddocks for some way of blaming the very system that gives them freedom to be different.
Haunt us with useless charges against us, those they need if ever they are to change anything.
And ignore the simple truth.
The middle east is not free it never will be.
Until it is free to not follow a God that demands no freedom.
Victimized by its own actions, comforted by its ability ,like the left, to blame others.
True left is dead, only the hollow echo of the few chant endless nonsense that at all costs, avoids the truth.

Poirot says: <<I in no way I put the "entire" blame on the West>>

When has she EVER criticized Islam or an Islamic state, OK, she came close on the Ifficak(the UK drop-in/drop-out[unsure of spelling])thread, but managed to sidestep at the last moment.

*No siree, I don't hold the West entirely to blame --only, 99.88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888% of it*

SPQR,

Because I look at problems over there - and choose "not" to ignore the West's input, doesn't mean I blame the West entirely.

In the case of Iraq in particular, there is something obscene in denigrating a people because they can't get their act together - in the wake of being comprehensively splattered by Western actions.

Poirot,

What Bush and his friends did in Iraq was terrible, but has it occurred to you that what they really did to set the killing off was to remove the dictator who was knocking heads together to prevent his people from murdering each other? Just consider what happened in the former Yugoslavia after the death of Marshal Tito. The US and NATO eventually did get involved, but long after the locals had started killing each other. They did it all by themselves.

Poirot.

Sunni v Shite fighting has been going on for over 1,000 years. It didn't start with US, or even the earlier colonial involvement. So for you and CSteele to imply it results from, or even largely results from, outside involvement is mischievous. Though I --in no way put the entire blame on-- either of you, knowing as I do that you both glean most of your info from lefty sites and such sites are not big on history beyond the "colonial era"

And not only has in-fighting been a feature of the Islamic ME for over 1,000 years, it has now opened a new theatre of operations in the Western suburbs of Sydney. Thanks in no small part to big hearted people like you and CSteele --though I in no way put the entire blame on-- either of you,you had a lot of outside helpers and those lefty sources, again, played a part.

SPQR,

This latest round of Sunni vs Shiite violence in Iraq is directly attributable to the invasion.

Bush and Co were repeatedly warned that it would happen....and it has unfolded almost exactly as was predicted.

So, it doesn't surprise me that a decade down the track that Iraq is still unstable.

It's what I thought would happen.

Bush was a dolt.....unbelievably so for a US leader.

Poirot,

<<This latest round of Sunni vs Shiite violence in Iraq is directly attributable to the invasion>>

Only in the sense that while Saddam ruled the roost no one was brave enough to start anything. He made short work of anyone who did.

The actually death toll under Saddam was likely to have been higher than anything we are currently seeing.

But as Saddam marinated his victims in acid baths or buried them in the desert it was NOT reported much in your sources--and anyway your sources just louuuve to kick the West.

SPQR,

While Saddam was doing all sorts of things, The US was doing business with him.

Rumsfeld was shaking his hand.

The US didn't go into Iraq for altruistic reasons.

You know that.

They went in because of the fiction that Saddam had WMD's. Despite the fact that inspectors had correctly deduced that they had none.

Huge folly - and apologists for the invasion always hark back to altruistic motives.

Poirot,

<<Rumsfeld was shaking his hand>>

Surely the issue is not who colluded with him (I'm surprised you didn't indite Lord Monckton!)

But whether the Arab winter --and cases like Saddam - are the result of outside interference or part and parcel of the Islamic heritage.

I favor the later. You seem to think that none of the bad things would have happen in only the nasty Westerners had left them alone to develop the garden of Eden.

Don't be puerile, SPQR,

We're discussing the post-invasion instance regarding Iraq.

That's what happened.

SPQR how dare you infiltrate the thread with truth.
A thousand years ago!
Ah Crusaders started it did they.
Fact is today is both Prayer day therefore death day, in some parts of the middle east.
Not that Pakistan and Afghanistan are death free.

Yes, Belly...it's all very complicated.

I might point out that you fellas arc up when things like "colonialism" are mentioned - because that's supposedly too far back to matter.

Yet, SPQR is quite happy to mention that infighting has been going on for over 1,000 years.

You can't have it both ways - do we go back a way or not?

In any case, he's correct - and Bushie and Co should have known what would happen.

It was obvious to me.

Poirot,

Islamic infighting --> on-going

Colonialism --> finished (unless you subscribe Poirot view of history!)

<<You can't have it both ways - do we go back a way or not?>>

Why not you do --equal opportunity

SPQR,

Colonialism by any other name is imperialism - aka - superpower stomping into Iraq to gain influence over resources - and to deliver "freedom" by way of misery.

SPQR,

Re: <<Colonialism (is made of snips and snails and puppy dogs & is never ending)>>

Self1: I TOLD YOU she would say that!
Self2: But I thought she might have improved, learned something.
Self1: Stuuupid man, she's too deeply brainwashed to change.

What was that about the first sign of madness?

(This post is directed at both of you - that is Self 1 "and" Self 2)

Which reminds me of that joke told by Bill Murray in "What About Bob"

.........

Roses are red,

Violets are blue,

I'm a schizophrenic,

And so am I.

Well that's me for tonight ---I'm off to watch the strangely addictive Tour de France --Cheers!

Poirot yes it is quite mixed up and no easy answers.
You are quite wrong in thinking I am unaware of the impacts of colonialism.
Bit stuck in my ways I am a product of my time.
And my time too of birth, growing up in a rural area that saw the well off still calling England home.
I have the southern cross both flying, and in this room.
Because first it was a stand against Imperialism, then the birth place of a thought standing together can be the answer.
Britain,like all colonialists ,footprints bought pain and just a little good to its colony,s.
I know of the heroic acts that bought freedom to so many country,s, and when Iraq is mentioned think of Lawrence of Arabia.
But we wast our time,looking back and blaming yesterday for todays events.
You and others are aware,even if it is morally wrong, I do not trust Muslims.
Hate me for it, but look at the life SOME women lead because of it.
And ,no defender of Christianity,can any one say with certainty without religion and its divided faith within a faith these folk would not be slaves to hate.
I will never forget or forgive that little man flogging a burning car, he in my mind is his religions slave and representative of it.

We must not ignore the impacts of the middle east.
If it becomes worse we all will pay for its instability.
shortage of oil, floods of refugees.
Deaths in any country hurt us all and we are about to see many more.
I am not heartless yesterdays reburial of murdered Muslims left me asking why would any human do such a thing?
Maybe the murderers are not human.

Belly,

"Colonialism" and "imperialism: are Poirot's code words for "blame the West"

1) Colonialism and imperialism did not start or end with Western countries --but those in Poirot's camp will never admit that, AND

2) All the woes of the rest of the world (and yes I know Poirot will deny she says "all" --but her actions/posts imply otherwise) are NOT attributable to Western intervention.

SPQR,

Of course, your dismissal of my claim that I don't hold the West responsible for everything is probably only attributable to one of your selves.....what does the other one think?

Is he more reasonable, and understands that I'm merely highlighting areas where the West impacts that region?

Poirot,

Sorry, but I picked-up this on the telepathic web:

P'rot s1:[reading a post on OLO about GW & Iraq] : Hate, hate, hate, hate, hate...
P'rot s2: Hey, what's bugging you?
P'rot s1: This article on OLO about GeorgeW's involvement in Iraq. GeorgeW looks like the teacher I had in high-school, the one who used to hit me with the ruler and I haaaate everythin about him.
P'rot s2: You can't go around saying you hate people or posts because they remind you of your least favourite teacher, you have to cloak it in other terms.[taking over the keyboard] Try something like this *Colonialism by any other name is imperialism - aka - superpower stomping into Iraq to gain influence over resources - and to deliver "freedom" by way of misery*
P'rot s1 Wow! that sounds really cool and intellectual.
P'rot s2 And it gives the same measure of catharsis.
P'rot s1 But what is im...im-pperi--ism?
P'rot s2: Imperialism, is when the US does anyyything.
P'rot s3: Yoohooo! guys, arnt we supposed to be go surfing, wow the waves look sooo cooool today
P'rot s4: WTF! You always get to go surfing, it washes out my bright pink colouring in my hair , this weekend we're going to the gallery and...
P'rot S3 We're not!
P'rot s4 Yes. We. Are!
P'rot s3 Are not!
P'rot s3 Are so!
P'rot s2 Shush UUUUUP! I cant here myself think, now where was I , oh yes, *The US and its allies (us included) go in boots and all, the aggressors, bombing, maiming, destroying and destablilising......*

SPQR,

(Firstly, I think you should cut out the red cordial:)

Are you saying that in the case of "Iraq" that we didn't go in boots and all, bombing, maiming, destroying and destabilising?

All on the back of a lie?

A lie carefully crafted post-invasion to negate the WMD line, and replace it with an altruistic motive?

Dear SPQR,

While Belly might have the Southern Cross on his wall he also has the Stars and Stripes tattooed over his heart. You normally are capable of some semblance of objectiveness so this is what I would like you to ponder. Why did the handcuffed, tortured groups of bodies only start appearing in Baghdad and other towns after Steele was given the reins?

This is what I am contending.

This was really Rumsfeld's war, and like any neo-con he was determined to do it on the cheap.

Against the advice of respected Generals like Colin Powell, Rumsfeld invaded Iraq with far fewer men than were deemed necessary for the job, especially the aftermath.

He then stripped the Iraqi military and police forces of Baath party members, most of them Sunni, and tried to rebuild them from the ground up but carrying on the same mindset the training effort was understaffed and under resourced. Watch the video I in the story I linked to earlier. There were 6 US policemen who were tasked with rebuilding the police force of 30,000 Iraqis within 18 months. Simply not do-able.

After the first year it became apparent that that strategy was not working. Those Iraqis who were trained by US military and civilian men showed little desire to fight and the resistance/insurgency was getting stronger. Attacks on the coalition forces were growing there was wide spread unrest.

Basically there were two options, dramatically increase troop numbers and training personnel or go to a cost effective option that worked well in El Salvador. Steele was hand picked by Rumsfeld and he set to work setting up paramilitary units, one of which was lead by a Sunni and former Saddam general. Originally designed to gather intelligence and provide a disciplined and effective Iraqi force that could be deployed quickly.

“Last summer, with the security situation deteriorating, some Iraqi and American officials began to argue that the time had passed for a ''clean hands'' policy that rejected most of the experienced people who had fought for Saddam Hussein.”

Cont..

Cont..

“The first official to take action was Falah al-Naqib, interior minister under the interim government of Ayad Allawi. In September, Naqib formed his own regiment, the Special Police Commandos, drawn from veterans of Hussein's special forces and the Republican Guard. As its leader, he chose General Adnan, not only because Adnan had a useful collection of colleagues from Iraq's military and security networks, but also because Adnan is Naqib's uncle.”

And as the situation deteriorated for the coalition toward the end of 2005 these groups essentially morphed into death squads. It was a co-ordinated culling of those fighting or helping with the resistance. By September of 2006 it had become a frenzy of killing.

May 4th 2006 “The bodies of 14 men, handcuffed and shot in the head and showing signs of torture, were found in the capital yesterday, police said.”
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bound-tortured-and-shot-iraq-toll-rises/2006/05/03/1146335804461.html

September 04, 2006 Police found the tortured, blindfolded bodies of 33 men scattered across the capital Monday
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/09/04/more-than-30-bodies-found-across-baghdad-7-iraq-coalition-troops-reported/#ixzz2YtRwP43S

September 13 2006
Police said Wednesday they found the bodies of 65 men who had been tortured, shot and dumped, most around Baghdad,
Associated Press

BAGHDAD, Iraq – police said they found 56 tortured bodies scattered around the Iraqi capital over the 24 hours before Friday morning, all the apparent victims of sectarian death squads.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/11/03/56-bodies-found-in-baghdad-4-gis-killed-in-attacks/#ixzz2YtVmKlyq

Except these were not really the victims of 'sectarian' death squads. Note the same theme, bound – often handcuffed, brutally tortured, and executed by a bullet to the head. These were the victims of intelligence gathering outsourced by the Americans to Steele's groups.

So SPQR to refute this you would need to show me where this type of group killings were occurring before mid 2005.

I'm not saying all of the 3,000 bodies a month that were turning up across Iraqi cities were from Steele' squads but I contend the vast majority were.

What we were being told was Muslim on Muslim sectarian violence was, as I said, a vast culling of the resistance by death squads, organised, selected, trained and resourced by Steele and his cohorts.

Poirot,

<<Are you saying that in the case of "Iraq" that we didn't go in boots and all, bombing, maiming, destroying and destabilising?>>

The use of the term <<boots and all>> connotes a fight without rules or restriction. And dispute the best pretensions of the left this is in no way an accurate description of how the US went into or operated in either Iraq or Afghanistan -so yes, I am saying we did not go in <<boots and all>>.

<<A lie carefully crafted post-invasion to negate the WMD line, and replace it with an altruistic motive?>>
Was it fool hardy --yes.
Was it a waste of manpower and money--perhaps yes.
But as for being <<a lie>> Bush and Co have had to know it wasn't true, and I'm not sure they did-- but I am open to persuasion

Csteele without making it up, I could post 100 posts about the wrongs of America here.
Maybe 1.000 but in the end I could, without lying tell of that many good things the have done.
Put any country that was once holder of colony,s, do not leave the Ottoman Empire out.
Truth be known, while I support much of Americas actions.
I would rather be a road kill Kola bear than yank.
We will never get on you and I we differ so very much,you are as unlikely to find *ANY THING WRONG, WITH ANY MUSLIM *as I am to win the lottery without a ticket.
Such blindness to the pain, tragic pain women and children, some times every one, in most Muslim country,s suffer.
And in the name of a God that never existed.
One day from within the Muslim faith a leader will come and lead part of his people to freedom, despite the efforts of folk like csteele who see,evil only in the west.

CSteele,

I looouved the way you introduced your post: <<... You normally are capable of some semblance of objectiveness>>

More please--but lay it on stronger next time-- the word semblance is far too weak.

<<This was really Rumsfeld's war, and like any neo-con he was determined to do it on the cheap>>

Perhaps, the US seems to do most things at bargain basement prices these days

<<So SPQR to refute this you would need to show me where this type of group killings were occurring before mid 2005>>

When Saddam lost power all the old controls were removed.Of course there was a spike in violence until a new pecking order/hierarchy was established(Look at "experts" have prophesized will happen to the Alawites, Christians and others in Syria if the Assad administration goes!).

Could it have been avoided through better planning and implementation under a democratic --open to everyones nitpicking and sniping -Western administration --it's highly doubtful

Could it have been avoided by a no-fuss authoritarian administration --absolutely!

<<elected, trained and resourced by Steele and his cohorts>>

Ah ha! therein lays his big mistake!
Never hire anyone whose names numerological value comes to anything less that five --six is Ok --- seven is perfect!
http://www.paulsadowski.com/NameData.asp

SPQR you are once more trying to introduce csteele to the facts.
You if you require debate must blind your self to one side of the augment.
As csteele does so well.

In Middle Eastern minds the tribal chief is the absolute leader and provider for the tribe. This thinking goes back 5,000 + years. For an outside power to break up the tribe means a power vacccum with struggles to regain tribal leadership / dominance. It resembles much of the Shakespearian history of ancient societies. Middle Eastern Islam lives in the ancient past incapable of moving out of its tribal view of culture. For them it is secure and familiar.

In the Western world people see themselves as individuals even hardly attached to the culture of their parents, every generation creates its own vision, music and image. Islam sees this as the destruction of a culture based on the law of Allah by which all must live. By what Wastern minds are being fed as entertainment today, there is much I would have to agree it is the destruction of a cohesive healthy society.

Josephus have you considered the impact of the Islamic faith on the middle easts troubles?
Daily news from the African continent tells of murders too.
In fact while Saudi Arabia keeps the pot boiling in the ME other places too have great troubles.
By the way, Saudi,s seem to go unnoticed yet fund much of the hate in that part of the world.

Well OK but we will revisit this theme.
It is a problem that will not go away.
And one that will have far greater effect on the whole world than some think.
Egypt is todays center tomorrow what country?
How in what became a country thought to be stable did Egypt both see its spring turn to winter, and a Democratic government become, or start to, a dreadful parody of the word?

Dear Belly,

I have been great pains to furnish verifiable facts in every post I have made here. You have given none. I'm not sure you would actually know what a fact was if you tripped over it in broad daylight.
Here is another fact for you.

Daniel Somers was a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom. He was part of Task Force Lightning, an intelligence unit. In 2004-2005, he was mainly assigned to a Tactical Human-Intelligence Team (THT) in Baghdad, Iraq. A month ago he took his own life. This is part of the letter he left his loved ones.

“You must not blame yourself. The simple truth is this: During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity. Though I did not participate willingly, and made what I thought was my best effort to stop these events, there are some things that a person simply can not come back from. I take some pride in that, actually, as to move on in life after being part of such a thing would be the mark of a sociopath in my mind. These things go far beyond what most are even aware of. To force me to do these things and then participate in the ensuing coverup is more than any government has the right to demand.”
http://gawker.com/i-am-sorry-that-it-has-come-to-this-a-soldiers-last-534538357

So Belly are you happy Rumsfeld took the 'El Salvador Option'? You have been an unfailing supporter of the operations of the Western powers in Iraq and Afghanistan. You have applauded drone strikes and targeted killings and proudly announced you would support more extreme measures. Well you got them. Row upon row of handcuffed, grotesquely tortured bodies. And now the life of Daniel Somers. This was done in your name, to let you sleep easier at night.

Do you?

Dear Josephus,

More Elders of Zion type tripe? I know the likes of Belly provide a receptive audience but it is wearing a bit thin.

csteele,
Please explain what the Elders of Zion believe. Please explain why you believe such a statement is tripe

Dear Josephus,

The so called 'Elders of Zion' is a fiction and a hoax concocted by elements within the Russian secret service to deflect blame for the defeat of the Russian-Sino war. As Wikipedia says “the text includes generalizations, truisms and platitudes“ and it played to stereotypes flagging the supposed plans for Jews to take over the world. These are exactly the tactics you are employing here. You continually claim Islam and democracy are incompatible. That we are guided by moral law where 'they' are not. That they see themselves as superior to the rest of us and that they “seek to implement this agenda (Sharia Law) in all democratic countries as Muslim populations increase.”

Even after the work was exposed as a hoax Hitler ordered it into every German classroom and it found a receptive audience among the German people. Thankfully your receptive audience is limited to the likes of Belly and a few others for now. You are just another purveyor, same type of message just targeting different Semitic peoples.

csteele I am well aware of that lie and it will get you all upset again however I support the Jews .
However your self important nature will never convince me you are other than an apologist for all things anti west.
Like to point out while I am here the news about murders in Syria when showing explosions has in every sound track God is great, I think not.

Dear Belly,

You once wrote about the carnage in Iraq;

“The truly horrible truth behind my claims of Muslim killing Muslim. Watch the blind. They will come read, then blame the west for these tragic events. They too, will continue not to see the very root cause of the problem, world wide and here. Is the product of a religion that is incompatible with western thought and lifestyle. Yet once here? It both feeds on our freedoms and finds reason to hate it.”

Well the root cause turns out to be the US via Rumsfeld deciding to take the El Salvador option and to organise, select, fund, train and oversee death squads who have inflicted brutal torture and killings on an industrial scale to counter the insurgency. Up to 3,000 a month. One wonders how often Saddam Hussain got to those heights of brutality when cracking down on his insurgencies?

Is Donald Rumsfeld a war criminal? Is James Steele one? I happen to think so but perhaps for you they are heroes fighting to safeguard your so called freedoms?

You however will defend their actions and forgive them anything. I will indeed "Watch the blind", his name is Belly. I hope you sleep well tonight.

csteele,
You obviously can only degrade others Western world views. How about you post your vision for a healthy, sane humanity. Where is a society you admire and can support?

Dear Josephus,

My view of a sane and humane world is one where abhorrent ideas, stereotyping, denigration, racism etc are forcefully challenged whether they come from the pulpit or the minbar, the commentariat or the redneck, the article writers on OLO or the posters.

Humanity is capable of great deeds and great evil. I believe that shining a light on both possibilities helps expand the likelihood of the first and diminish the latter.

I believe that America is fast slipping toward something capable of doing the world great harm yet I am enough of an optimist to believe that there will be a enough Americans who recognise the danger to forestall the worst and if we are really lucky it may well deserve to return to something the rest of the world can look up to.

A first step would be to ratify the Rome Statute and join the majority of countries in becoming a participant in the International Criminal Court, even though some one like Rumsfeld may well be indicted.

Josephus you will not make ground with csteele.
I invite you when time allowed to review the past history in print just here from him.
Hit on the little man under one of his posts and stand by.
Look at the posts around the Sydney riot, a remarkable ability to be blind to any wrong from that crowd of hate filled failures.
Go back to the Muslim convert who lied about a police man.
She had a body guard of large unhappy males, happy however to trample on our justice system.
Not a word about them and a rather dogmatic support for that womans lies.
I came from the left, as more and more distance between me and my
*dream time* wish for equity, it becomes clearer.
The left stops change.
By its begging to Be ignored refusal to see answers, * to any problem* come from giving and taking.
csteele holds extremist views, that is what views conferring sainthood on the middle east and condemning the west to hell are.

Belly,
Obviously csteele is a danger to democracy and social unity in the West. In the Middle East he would rise as a leader and dictator. That is where he would serve this world to his full capacity.

Belly,

"csteele holds extremist views..."

That's a fairly grotty comment.

So it's extremist to point out where the US and it's allies indulge in torture and murder?

It was people with a conscience like csteele's who revealed the terrible goings on at Abu Ghraib prison.

Have a gander at these pictures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

If it was left up to the likes of you and Josephus, things like this would be swept under the carpet.

The Islamic world is not blameless and has major faults, but to assume that the West is nothing but sweetness and light is downright ignorant.

Poirot I have great respect for you, Suseonline and Lexi.
Yes I know my reputation is some times in rags.
Because being liked has no bearing on my views.
I say what I think.
So too does csteele.
We are forever opposed, and I am insulted as much as I insult in that relationship.
I could be very hostile in replying to your post.
But it would be a waste.
*I will never hide my true view*
And you have seen my true thoughts about csteele.
A day will come that sees me go, I am sure I can not forever wade in this pool.
But as my post above said, and this is going to impact on the election.
*Trying to put minority views down others throats , with both feet, *never works*
Abbott has forggoten his task.
He need not sell to his side, and should not turn his back on the rest of us.
*It is my view *the views expressed by csteele here insult my class my country and that remains my view*
The left came in to existence at the hands of brave men and women, sometimes the women lead.
To counter dreadful acts.
It failed and became the oppressor.
Todays fragmented left has lost its way once they would see the murders and death the enslavement of whole country,s by a non-existent God.
They pursue the west with endless and mindless rants and all ears are closed to them, not mine however.

@ Poirot & Co,

<<to assume that the West is nothing but sweetness and light is downright ignorant>>

Gee you speak a lot of guff, Poirot. An absolute master of misrepresentation. Trying position yourself as a voice of moderation!(LOL)

When has anyone on the forum presented the West as <<nothing but sweetness and light>>?

And when have YOU ever expanded on this throw away line <<The Islamic world is not blameless and has major fault>>? (care to give us a few links, ay?)

And this was a good call Belly: <<steele holds extremist views...>>
Belly you have a rare nack of being able to see through bullsh!t.

Dear SPQR,

Lol.

That's possibly the quickest you have ever reverted to name calling which usually signals you have given up the fight. Between you Josephus and Belly you have really only provided “generalizations, truisms and platitudes“. Are you sure you don't moonlight for the Russian secret Service?

You usually give a decent account of yourself. Yet you haven't disputed a single fact I have posted, although you did accuse me along with Poirot of “knowing as I do that you both glean most of your info from lefty sites”.

I'm not sure Fox News or the New York Times qualify although the Guardian could be classed as liberal.

Is it because there is very little to dispute? Possibly.

So I'm assuming you accept Rumsfeld made the decision to use the 'El Salvador option'. Do you believe that constituted a war crime? I do, even if in your view opposition to death squads is extremist.

Neither you, Belly or Josephus have offered the slightest condemnation of those actions. Is it because you all support them?

“The simple truth is this: During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity.”

Ultimately decency forced this man to recognise the enormity of what he was involved in and to recognise it for what it was, evil.

Why is it that you three seem incapable of the same?

SPQR you from the immovable right.
Me from the only true left Labors middle path.
Agree!
We will not be surprised, both of us know *most think like us*
You will differ with me here, but wasted leftist efforts more often than not, if they harm any one it is my side of the house.
They insist, on pushing prams without wheels.
On ignoring the truth, in this case if America did not exist they would make it up,to have something to hate.
And ignoring the fact we would face death and worse if we lived in the middle east.
A very wise man/woman said these words, they could be about America and its western friends.
If Arabs lay down their guns there will be no war.
If Israel does there will be no Israel.

CSteele,

Now come on Steele, when have I ever called you a name you don't richly deserve?

You say: << Yet you haven't disputed a single fact I have posted>>
It ain't through lack of looking,I've been looking hard for your facts but they seem a little thin on the ground.

<< you did accuse me along with Poirot of “glean(ing) most of [our] info from lefty sites”>>
That one was easy to deduce. There is no way that any one could have had a balanced exposure to the news and still come-up with the harebrained theories you and P'rot proffer! So, either, you have only been reading way-out lefty sites, or, perusing other sites through only one jaundiced eye (and I know the latter is true of P'rot).

<<Neither you, Belly or Josephus have offered the slightest condemnation of those actions. Is it because you all support them?>>
As I pointed out before, you guys get great sadistic joy from playing a game that doesn't allow the West to win:
If it doesn't get involved it is accused of collusion.
If it does get involved you and P'rot will snipe and nitpick at every opportunity to find fault.
Talk about ticket to ride, you guys have a unlimited ticket to whine!

Dear SPQR,

Again you had the opportunity to condemn the 'Salvador Option', Runsfeld, James Steele and the death squads yet you did not. Instead we got more “generalizations, truisms and platitudes“.

I highlight the utterly sadistic nature of the torture and murder of thousands of Iraqis by these death squads and you talk about me as a sadist?

Another 'left wing' site, the Washington Post.

“OF ALL THE bloodshed in Iraq, none may be more disturbing than the campaign of torture and murder being conducted by U.S.-trained government police forces.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120300881.html

And a little more about the El Salvador Option.

“The Salvador Option is an approach to counter-insurgency warfare that was utilised by the United States Department of Defense during the Salvadoran Civil War. The term was later used in the context of counter insurgency operations coordinated by Colonel James Steele, a retired special forces veteran who was nominated by Donald Rumsfeld to help organise Shi'ite paramilitaries in an attempt to quell a Sunni insurgency during the Iraq War.”

and

“Much of what the CIA and the U.S. Military Advisory Group in El Salvador actually knew about the Salvadoran death squads is still kept highly secret. Statements by U.S. officials regarding the activities of the Iraqi Interior Ministry's Special Police Commandos, and other MOI units (which have been accused either of being death squads, of being infiltrated by insurgents, or both), are equally opaque.
What is known is that both the key U.S. official behind both the Milgroup in El Salvador from 1984 to 1986, and the Special Police Commandos since it was formed in September 2004, is the same person, James Steele.”
Wikipedia

It isn't as though people didn't see it coming. It was even openly discussed before it was instigated.

“With no end to the Iraq conflict in sight, some US military strategists have been considering tactics used during the civil war in El Salvador, a brutal and bloody campaign that lasted for years.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4209595.stm

My apologies for yet another 'left wing' link. Those commies at the BBC just won't shut up.

A truth can not be ignored here.
Few informed posters could not point at the wrongs of America.
For that matter even us, our gutless back down in the 1960,s that gave Indonesia half of a country.
But too those same few, would be blind if they let the nasty anti west ,sometimes pure fabrication , blind them to the very real, self imposed troubles in the middle east and most Muslim country,s.
The left died a slow death, at its own hands.
I was part of the fabrications and lies, the jumping in on others issues pretending we not the owners of those events ran the show.
I could find something more balanced to say about some.
If they only looked at westerners having their throats cut on film.
I am an activist still, currently taking part in supporting the wonderful and brave girl the Taleban tried to murder to keep woman away from education.
Most of the left I see would climb over her body to find reason to blame the west.

Dear CSteele,

So let’s get this straight: you've found a source which ALLEGES (allegation no. 1) the existence of Salvadorian groups & Iraqi groups doing dastardly deeds. And it also ALLEGES (allegation no.2) the US military and CIA were collusive.And on the basis of that you've tried convicted and sentenced the US military and CIA (you must be the original hanging judge!).

A little presumptuous don’t you think – could it possibly be confirmation bias at work?

And here’s another angle: since some of your sources are widely read popular periodicals, as you were at great pains to point out, why-oh-why is it so essential you get Belly or Josephus or myself adding to the condemnation? Those stories alone should be evidence enough that the West is self-critiquing (pathologically so) –even on the most flimsiest of evidence.

Did you by chance, happen to come upon similar self critiques from your allies in Teheran? or ANY Islamic source which even *acknowledged* their creeds genocidal behavior?

I'll say one thing for you CSteele, you have fortitude, you will stick with your used car dealer routine right to the bitter end --even when it's apparent you're trying to sell us a rust bucket. Your partner in crime, Poirot goes missing in action whenever someone challenges her one-eyed sales pitch!

Dear Belly,

You said at the start of this thread that “I am unaware of any western involvement in the internal Muslim against Muslim killings.”

You are now aware of exactly such involvement, unless of course you are determined to close your mind to the facts.

Rumsfeld and Steele planned it, organised it, funded it and protected it. That is a matter of record. If you want to challenge it you may but you haven't thus far and I am completely convinced you can not do so.

That is not to say some Americans, especially in the regular army didn't try to stop the torture and slaughter but most like you just turned a blind eye.

My point is this, every time you come out with holier than thou statements about them vs us you are setting yourself up for a fall. Both sides have been horrendously brutal during this conflict and for every accusation of human rights abuse you can quote there will be another to pin on the opposing force. We need to condemn them all.

I was the first to raise the case of Malala Yousafzai on this forum and have followed her progress with a deep appreciation of her strength and courage. It is admirable that you are taking part in efforts to support her. All I ask is that while doing so you spare a thought for the Iraqi girl Abeer Qassim Al-Janabi the fourteen year old who was also shot in the head but didn't survive. However immediately before her death she was forced to endure being raped by three US soldiers the last of whom had just shot and killed her father, her mother and her little sister in the adjoining room.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340207/I-didnt-think-Iraqis-humans-says-U-S-soldier-raped-14-year-old-girl-killing-her-family.html

If you don't open both your eyes you are either blind or one eyed.

Csteele,

I have no problem in believing in your death squads, just that they were the decisive factor and all would be sweetness and light without those nasty Americans. If it was all down to the death squads, then why are the killings continuing in Iraq now that the US has gone home? What about similar waves of killing elsewhere, such as killings of Coptic Christians in Egypt, the civil war in the former Yugoslavia, the Rwandan genocide, and Republicans vs. Unionists in Northern Ireland? Is the US responsible for the atrocities in these conflicts as well?

Dear SPQR,

...alleges...a source...presumptuous...confirmation bias...hanging judge...pathological self critiquing?

Lol.

If you have got nothing mate just say it. You admit you have been going through my references yet the best you can do is more platitudes? Come on, there must be something you can challenge me with.

Now you are even questioning the existence of Salvadorian groups. Whew!

Here is the Report of the UN Truth Commission on El Salvador.
http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/salvador/informes/truth.html

if you are not inclined to read it here is a summary of their conclusions from the United States Peace;

Conclusions
Among over 22,000 complaints documented, 60% involved extrajudicial killings, 25% involved disappearances, 20% involved torture, and some alleging more than one form of violence.
Based on collected testimony the commission attributed 85% of the acts of violence to State agents, which took place predominantly in rural areas. Approximately 5% of the acts of violence were attributed to the FMLN.
The report named individual actors allegedly responsible for human rights violations.
http://www.usip.org/publications/truth-commission-el-salvador

Note only 5% of the acts of violence were attributable to the insurgency. Perhaps an investigation may well find similar figures for Iraq.

I suppose the question becomes would you support a UN Truth Commission investigation into the Iraqi extra-judicial killings or do you really think there is no case to answer?

Dear divergence,

Thank you, but they are not my death squads.

You asked;

“What about similar waves of killing elsewhere, such as killings of Coptic Christians in Egypt, the civil war in the former Yugoslavia, the Rwandan genocide, and Republicans vs. Unionists in Northern Ireland? Is the US responsible for the atrocities in these conflicts as well?”

No I don't and at least in some of these the US acted attempted to mitigate some of the killing that took place. However in Iraq I think there is pretty solid evidence that elements within the US administration had their hands deep in formation and oversight of these death squads. Therefore I should also ask you, would you support a UN Truth Commission investigation into the Iraqi extra-judicial killings?

No problem, Csteele. As I have already written. I consider the invasion of Iraq a war crime. Even if it had been justified, the whole thing was grossly mismanaged.

Dear CSteele,

The <<the UN Truth Commission>> LOL

Isn't that the forerunner to 1984's the <<Ministry of Truth>>?

Sorry Mr CSteele, the court has ruled that any body, which saw fit to have (pre-revolution)Libya and Mugabe ruled Zimbabwe in its various rights commissions is an unreliable witness, and therefore its testimony is inadmissible.

Next witness please?

Dear SPQR,

You really are stumped aren't you.

So the moon is made from cheese, Elvis is alive, and there were no death squads operation in El Salvador during the eighties.

Okay.

I think you are on an orbit that makes constructive communication rather difficult. If you ever attempt re-entry let us know, otherwise be careful out there, you might drown.

Dear Divergence,

Mismanagement I could probably wear. Death squads torturing and killing I can't. Those involved are war criminals and should be brought to justice.

Yesterday the UN said it thinks 5.000 are killed every day in Syria's war within.
Having an inquiring mind I will watch to see how csteele puts the blame on the USA.
Muslim killing Muslim , a war that has a thousand year history?
I am unable to link evil west to such acts.