Pericles,

Perhaps what Yuyutsu is intimating is that "everything" (material) thus comprises of "an aggregation of quantum mechanical electron cloud probability densities" - and this where "existence" becomes a nebulous notion.

What is it....that 99.99 percent (or something to that effect:) of the atoms that comprise matter is vacuum?

Tony Lavis, “Like an energy field...”
Maybe. What if “energy” is more than physical. That would explain the persistence of “ghosts”.
Some part of their “energy” remains, despite the loss of the physical body.

Our bodies/brains perceptions can be altered by external (magic mushrooms) and internal (hormones/memories) factors.
Which is why I get so annoyed by people telling me they *know* what's “real”.

If a consciousness is creating the universe in real time, unicorns and dragons may have indeed been “real”.
No evidence of them now, the consciousness eliminated it from “reality”.
But it left titillating clues behind, like paintings and fairytales as a sly wink.

Belly “And is a unified human race possible if we continue to squabble over God?”

A unified species (not race, that term relates only to subdivisions not totalities) is impossible, whether we squabble about God or not.

Firstly, we'll still squabble about other political, economic, aesthetic, moral, ethical perspectives.

Secondly, there are too many distinct types to ever “unify” them.
Unlike other species, where all look and act the same (except for sex differentiation, shock horror feminists!)
We don't live as a species. We live as ethnicities.
We look and act in thousands of permutations, some related and some unrelated.

Suseonline “I was only talking about public supposedly secular schools as you well know.”

And.... you, an atheist, are demanding the elimination of religion from them. Then turn around and claim atheists are doing no such thing.

“There aren't enough atheists around...”

In these days of political “correctness” (cough), all it takes is *one* petulant complaint and out go the crosses, lest a frivolous lawsuit ensue.

“political correctness within Government owned institutions”

Yes, your *secular* government, secular supposedly meaning neutrality?

DiamondPete, you are just shouting. You present no argument, you just stand on your pedestal with your bullhorn, blasting all with your opinions and calling them “facts”.

“An informed populace is MUCH more likely to be a free populace.”

Free? To only think logically? To only follow orthodox authority/experts?
To never be wrong, defiant, stupid, crazy, absurd, ironic, devious?
I don't want your “freedom”.

Dear Pericles,

There is nothing but God. God does not exist, nor anything else in truth - existence is an illusion, a distorted perception of reality.

We perceive the objective plane by virtue of us all suffering from the same illusion.
(this does not exclude the possibility of others suffering a different illusion, but in that case we cannot communicate with them)

Religion is what takes you out of this illusion, from truth with a small 't' into Truth with a capital 'T'.

Dear Trevor,

<<I am an aggregation of quantum mechanical electron cloud probability densities... pleased to meet you.>>

Science tells us that the likelihood of any atom, probably any particle, remaining constantly in our body and especially in our brain for the decades from birth to death, is practically zilch.

Given that, it would require a miracle for our memories NOT to play tricks on us.

Now an interesting exercise: as an aggregation of quantum probabilities, should anything stop you from hopping along with the respective atoms from one brain to another?
(I wouldn't of course expect you to remember it if it happened)

Dear Tony,

Your suggestions are out of context: in the original context, 'knowledge', 'science', 'education' and 'freedom' were meant "as perceived by DiamondPete", not as commonly understood. In that context it was clear what we were referring to, rather than the examples you provided relating to the common understanding of those terms.

"579" suggested making religion illegal. What would he then do about those who refuse to forsake God? He could imprison some, but jails would soon become full, so the remaining options are turture, killing and concentration/re-education camps. This actually occurred in the past and still occurring in some countries.

Dear Belly,

Yes, thank you, I did read that link. I did also read many similar articles in the past. I don't think that Christian evangelism is relevant to our current discussion, nor are those 4200 little gods, the Christian/Abrahamic one being just one of them.

Following a particular deity (little-god) may help some to come closer to God, but it's not required.

>>What if “energy” is more than physical. That would explain the persistence of “ghosts”.
Some part of their “energy” remains, despite the loss of the physical body.<<

An interesting hypothesis. How many joules do you reckon the average ghost contains? Do you think this energy could be harnessed to perform work? Maybe we could find a way to put that energy to good use and lead the world in renewable energy with the world's first ghost-burning power station.

If ghosts, Gods and other ghoulies have an objective existence then they can be observed, described and possibly quantified.

>>Our bodies/brains perceptions can be altered by external (magic mushrooms) and internal (hormones/memories) factors.
Which is why I get so annoyed by people telling me they *know* what's “real”.<<

Which may lead to ghosts, Gods and other ghoulies having a subjective existence. Is that the same thing as being 'real'? For a young child Santa Claus may have a subjective existence: does that make Santa and his magic flying reindeer 'real'?

The human ability to imagine that something is real doesn't make it real. If I could imagine - not merely suspend disbelief for the enjoyment of a story - but actually imagine that Gulliver's Travels were a truthful account of man's ocean voyages would that bestow reality on Lilliput and Brobdingnag and all the other fantastical lands described in the book? Would cartographers have to start updating their maps? Would I be able to book a holiday in Laputa?

TBC

>>A unified species (not race, that term relates only to subdivisions not totalities) is impossible, whether we squabble about God or not.

Firstly, we'll still squabble about other political, economic, aesthetic, moral, ethical perspectives.

Secondly, there are too many distinct types to ever “unify” them.
Unlike other species, where all look and act the same<<

I'm taking it you've never encountered more than one dog in your life. Dogs exhibit an amazing amount of variation within their species, more so than any species I can think of. Domesticated cats, cows, budgies, humans etc.: they all look basically the same - but dogs range from Chihuahuas to Great Danes and from Whippets to British Bulldogs. Their temperaments show similar variation because of how we've domesticated them for certain purposes - a retriever thinks differently to a fighting dog; a terrier differently to a herding dog. Dogs fight but they can also be packmates even when one is an Irish Wolfhound and the other a Toy Poodle. We could learn a lot from dogs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ-fvr2qLc0

Cheers,

Tony

>>Your suggestions are out of context: in the original context, 'knowledge', 'science', 'education' and 'freedom' were meant "as perceived by DiamondPete", not as commonly understood.<<

I rather suspect - and I'm sure that he'll be happy to confirm - that 'knowledge', 'science', 'education' and 'freedom' as perceived by Diamond Pete are exactly the same thing as 'knowledge', 'science', 'education' and 'freedom' as commonly understood.

His comment 'Long live knowledge, science, education and freedom.' certainly gave no indication he meant them in anything but the conventional sense.

>>"579" suggested making religion illegal. What would he then do about those who refuse to forsake God? He could imprison some, but jails would soon become full, so the remaining options are turture, killing and concentration/re-education camps.<<

I love the way you jump straight to torture, murder and concentration camps. Thank god you're not a judge is all I can say - you'd be handing down sentences of life in solitary confinement for jay-walking. A lot of misdemeanors receive no more punishment than a small fine or a good behaviour bond. Even if they did criminalise it: it's not really illegal unless you get caught. Avoid saffron robes, rosary beads, hijabs and public worship and there's not much the police can do: they have yet to train a religion-sniffing dog.

Cheers,

Tony