" ... Paul 1405! if only! if we could kill the fraud, get some returns in the form of truly paid and earned work. Just maybe we could spend part of our savings helping those in true need. DreamOn could not agree more.

Belly you say "Paul/Poirot, seem to defend the good, and Dennie the existance of the bad and the very ugly."
Yet I posted "This is fraud and such people are robbing not only the tax payer but also robbing genuine people who deserve social welfare. These fraudulent people should be caught and prosecuted." Belly, "CAUGHT AND PROSECUTED" come on mate! How is that statement denial of welfare fraud.
I repeat there are people in our society who rip off social security, there are people in our society who are happy with a lifestyle that many would term lazy and these people are collecting newstart or a disability pension, and not genuinely looking for work, or do not have a genuine disability. In our society there are 'ugly' welfare recipients, people with neglected children, people with major issues in their lives, drugs, alcohol, violence etc.
My answers are the fradsters, jailed, the lifestylers cut off, the ugly helped.
Government has a duty to tax payers to ensure all tax payer money is spent wisely and well, be it dollars spent on the military or dollars spent on welfare all dollars spent.
What some on here with an axe to grind, these I call individualist, see no obligation to support other members of society. These self centered individuals point to waste in 'visible welfare' and use that as the excuse to attack all on visible welfare. These very same people quite happily partake of 'invisible welfare' do they only drive their car on that part of the road they paid for, or do they also drive on all the road, those parts that others have paid for.
In our society We all receive invisible welfare. No state from the primitive to the modern could exist without 'welfare' in some form.

Paul one of your best ever posts, one I agree with every word, BUT.
Shame the one before spoke about fraud being full time workers on the dole, a very minor part of the problem.
Let fraud stay un answered, leave it, if you must.
Is reform worth while? needed? a good thing?
Rechtub ,breath deeply, you are turning quite pink.
Your post history shows every symptom of a rare tropical illness, Red Neck fever.
Not everyone fits your description, not every single parent unemployed, pensioner, disability receiver , smokes uses drugs drinks, votes Labor.
You start thread after thread mining dislike for the underdog, workers wages earners Unionists Labor voters welfare recipients.
Breath deep, its turning red!
Reform could include Superannuation!
A third of EVERY WAGE INCREASE put in to super, and a portion must be used to live on before SS.
I will just get back under my rock.
crap? interesting use of the word, suppose you would know.

Belly the fraudsters we can deal with, we have laws in place to deal with them. How do you deal with the alcoholic, how do you deal with the kids of an 'ugly'. A heart wrenching story, many many years ago, my 2 boys were small, it's a hot day, 110 in the shade as they say. The kids hear the 'Mr Whippy' van "Dad can we have an icecream" "Sure you can" all run for the van, at the van there is my kids, lots of kids and parents, this woman with a small boy about 4. In those days 'Mr Whippy' also sold fags. By the way she spoke you could tell she was 'uneducated' she's being served, orders a pack of fags, the little boy asked "Mummy can I have an icecream?" " No you F en can't, I got no F en money!" The kid began to cry. I said to Mr Whippy, "Give that kid an icecream, I'll pay for it." Its 2 bob no big deal. Well, WW3 broke out between me and this woman. She ended up dragging the kid away, with him balling his eyes out.
To the 'individualist' the most important thing is taking the $5 of welfare money away from her, that is important, but how does that get the kid an icecream, which to me is more important. To me there were 2 people there with issues, the mother and the child.

Paul what would you have thought if there had been someone there demanding that the solution was that you hand over $10 to the mum?

You did charity that was targeted to where you though the need was, you maintained some choice in where it went and how it was used. Not too different to Rehctub's card.

There are those on the right who are selfish but I suspect for most it's a motivation similar to what I think drove you when you tried to buy an ice cream for the kid rather than making a donation to the mum's next pack of cigarette's.

It's all to easy to misrepresent those who disagree with you with a comment such as "To the 'individualist' the most important thing is taking the $5 of welfare money away from her, that is important, but how does that get the kid an icecream, which to me is more important" but that's more to do with spin than the reality for many.

R0bert

Paul I am sorry, your comment avoids the subject, diverts it to poor parenting.
We CAN NOT DEAL WITH FRAUD or there would be none!
I have said the thread, one I put up, is about reform, fraud is only a part of it.
The woman you talk of, is not.
She is a problem, so was the Mr whippy van selling cigarettes.
Paul in my view, SS IS AN OPPORTUNITY, it is said one in six can read only average,or not at all.
Work for these, if long term unemployed,would be learning to read and write.
Some could progress to learning carpentry, many of todays carpenters earned that title on the job,as bridge carpenters /formworkers with our once biggest trainers government enterprises.
Open you mind and heart to those kids you spoke about, that mum today, should be told no matter what her race, you MUST take parenting skills training or will not be paid.
The kids are my concern, mate I could tell you , and congrats for buying the ice creams, of hundreds of such acts.
We change nothing about that mum by our generosity.

R0bert. There are people who 'see' direct welfare payments as being noting more than an unjustified 'gift' to undeserving members of society, person they perceive as being lazy parasites living off their hard work . People who 'see' one case of a 'dole bludger' and then extrapolate that to encompass all on welfare, this extrapolation is their way of justifying the bigotry they harbor within, it gives them peace of mind.
Belly maybe I worded it incorrectly. What I should have said, its more clear cut as to what is the best course of action to deal with the fraudster when caught, jail or cut them off from payments. We have mechanisms in place to try and catch the fraudsters and I believe Centrelink are working at catching fraudsters, it is a battle to catch all, at any given point in time there are those out there defrauding the system.