Belly, if I miss understood your comment, please accept my apology.

I thought it was aimed at me.

RObert thanks bloke
Rechtub all is forgiven mate.
Dream On within both party's live good and indeed great people.
Our hung Parliament, the need to win, at any cost has seen the, best not use that word, -wrong- folk rise to the top.
We all suffer because of that.
Rather than institutionalize this disruptive hung Parliament the task we can achieve,the easiest one, is reform both party's.
This subject *highlights*
Opposition to reform.
The need to win is a symptom of our current illness.
I am for reform, for new ways in welfare education ,new ways to fix environmental issues.
And think my party can not win the next election,is NEEDLESSLY planning only to preserve its achievements.
I include carbon tax mining super tax,NBN education reform,major pension increases in those achievements.
It is my view, my party thinks too it can not win.
And has given up trying,hence Gillard remains in the roll she never should have held
WHY?
My party has convinced its self ! out standingly silly.
Abbott will be so bad we will be swept back into office like flotsam and jetsam!
Now you see why I am a reformist! 20, from each side should be sent to the knacker's.

I think alot of speak and knowledge about welfare and those who are on is such a sterotyped and stigmatised area. I fully understand and am aware there are many individuals who take advantage of the system and who have no desire to get off welfare and get a job or a degree or anything to better themselves or better the lives for thier children, but such actions of a minority should not speak for the majority. There are so many sole parents who work their butts off and spend years at home with heads in books and laptops trying to study for a degree or other qualifications..don't you think its such people like this that people should think of when they think of welfare?? People doing the right thing, not because they are being "forced" to. Welfare to work policies just take away the extra finanical securities such sole parents require, and place extra barriers in achieveing their dreams.

Young mum let me have a say here.
I did not start the thread to verbally flog those on welfare.
I do not look down on the subject from am ivory tower.
You may have seen recent claims we should extent the retirement age.
Today and yesterday that came along with a wish to increase GST, to fund something or other.
Do not picture me as an old fuddy duddy,I put my hope and trust in younger generations.
But learned long ago, this country's welfare is out standing, some,America for a start, go no place near us, some country's give nothing.
My childhood, from about 6 to 11 was blighted by hunger, real true hunger,Social Security had to be fought for.
It exploded in the 1970,s.
My working life began before 13 years of age, but was full time from 13 to 65 plus a bit.
Yet we know,changes must come, must, or our whole welfare system will fail.
I will not question your right to receive welfare, some will, but to try to say investigations of our system, constant reviews,are uncalled for is madness.
Some boat people have never worked from the day they came here,AND HAVE HAD KIDS IN DOUBLE FIGURES in that time.
Single mum, know, in my family some females have had kids for currency!
No love no care no hope for children our greatest treasure just dole dollars.

Looking back at my last post it could be seen by some as cruel.
Never intended it that way, but here in that two lines lays a very real problem.
In offering any subject, any.
AS ONE FOR POTENTIAL REFORM, we first must take on the thought we are being cruel to some one.
25 years ago, I had in shared care with their grand mum 4 kids.
A new law came in work for the dole.
Three of those kids, boys , had long before been lost to me, only link was my wages.
One, the eldest got extremely angry ,at the, his words *unfairness of working for the dole*
No point in me saying who do you think pays the dole.
No point in reminding him his mum, for years, got the SS for him while we fed them.
Can I now ask those my childhood was spent with, the Socialists, or those as I am still today, Social activists who want better for the true poor,is ignoring fraud not thieving from those in need.
Is wrong ever right?

Belly you say "some,America for a start, go no place near us (provision of welfare), some country's give nothing."

America, much of their social problems are brought about by their poor welfare system. I would hope you are not proposing a US type model as ideal for Australia. the "some country's give nothing", yes indeed little or no government sponsored welfare in the third world. I do not see that as justification to cut welfare.