Pelican you ask

'Isn't the God of Israel also the God of Muslims?' I suggest you ask any Muslim whether Allah is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will have your answer. The God of Israel is the Creator of the universe while Allah is a derivative from a moon god.

Loudmouth you ask

'Could you please define what you mean by 'fundie secularist' and explain how they/we are a danger to the rest of society ? Please include in your reply, references to 'open society' and 'inclusive society'.'

The main doctrine of the fundie secularist whether written or worked out is the hate of God. The hate generally comes because their own lifestyles are so perverse that instead of repentance they hold to one of their favourite tennants of faith which of course is moral relativism. The science is settled is another one of their dogmas. The desperation to deny the obvious (a Creator) leads to all sort of ridiculous puffed up statements about origins. Any fool can see through this deception except the 'true believers'. The killing of the unborn is justified by 'science'. Just change the terms of life and you justify anything. Fundie secularist deny the fruit of their philosophy has been shown by the millions upon millions killed by marxism. They love to point to sinful man's actions in killing others if done in the name of God and yet deny the adamic nature.

con't

con't

a prayer written by an unknown author sums up how the fundie secularist deceitfully corrupt the minds of children

'Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.
If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.
Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.
We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.
We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!
Amen
author unknown

Runner,

Forgive me for disagreeing with almost every aspect of your definition of 'fundamental secularist':

* I certainly don't hate religion, or religions, I sympathise with their believers to the extent that it is better to have some set of guidelines rather than none at all: I disagree with their choices of reference point, something supernatural rather than human or hatural, but there you go;

* I probably have some perversities, but no more than the average person: I've been told that I am very boring as well as ugly - are these perversities ?

* I certainly do not support moral relativism, except in the case of mildly-devout and sincere religious believers such as yourself;

* you may have a point about some perversions of Marxism and the killing of millions: as a Marxist, I certainly deny that such killings were necessary, but I am aware that this is a very thin excuse;

* I would support a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy, preferably in the first trimester, but that would be up to her. I don't believe a person is a person until they are a viable human being, say around the end of the second trimester. Not every egg has to be fertilised, and not every fertilised egg becomes a human being, now that the contraceptive pill is so common;

* In your poem, you do seem to be confusing church and state, blurring the boundaries, attributing non sequiturs to secular forces and thereby barking up the wrong tree. This confusion gets us directly into the difficulties that are confronting the reformists in the Middle East, a confrontation which I think will be historic, extremely historic if there is such a phrase.

In fact, I think that the revolutions and uprisings and demonstrations in Middle Eastern and North African countries will come down to a struggle between secularists and Islamist fundamentalists. It is entirely uncertain who will win those struggles which, I believe, are so crucially important for humanity as a whole. Who would you support, Runner, secularists or Islamist fundamentalists ?

Joe

The moslem religion is all good, but these people are not suited to AU.
Multicultural to me means the mixing of races, These people do not mix with different religions, The moslem will never be multicultural. AU is no place for them.

Climb to the top of the Sydney harbour bridge, look around & you would not be surprised to hear the bloke beside you say that famous quote, "we came, we saw, we conquered".

Unless the average Ozzie wakes up very soon, in 50 years you'll have to speak Arabic to know the bloke beside you, in the same place, is saying the same thing.

Hi a597,

In your statement that "Multicultural to me means the mixing of races, These people do not mix with different religions, The moslem will never be multicultural. AU is no place for them", I'm surprised you didn't chuck language into the mix, in order to produce a thoroughly confused mess.

How's this ?

* 'Multicultural' means the mixing of the cultural practices of people from various parts of the world.

* The mixing of 'races' is usually termed 'multiracial'.

* 'Race' does not necessarily include 'culture'.

* 'Culture' does not necessarily include religion.

* Religion is not necessarily associated with racial groups. All manner of human beings are Muslim: European Bosnians, Chinese Hui and Uighur, many south Indians, Filipinos, Thais, even Aboriginal people. All sorts of people are Christians too: I suspect that there are now more Christians in Africa than in Europe.

You are confusing culture, race and religion. Sorry, 597, but the world is irritatingly complex. So actually I'm glad that you did not add language to the stew.

Joe