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The Forum > General Discussion > So, what comes after multiculturalism?

So, what comes after multiculturalism?

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With Merkel, Cameron, Sarkozy and Howard all saying multiculturalism has failed, obviously these countries need a new social policy. What will it be?

And what, in God's name, is Cameron's "muscular liberalism"? How can you force someone to be free?

Sarkozy
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0212/1224289636274.html
Merkel
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451
Cameron
http://www.news.com.au/world/multiculturalism-policies-in-britain-a-failure-says-pm-david-cameron/story-e6frfkyi-1226000767708
Howard
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/howard-hails-unity-in-return-to-culture-wars/story-fn59niix-1225942454182
Posted by TRUTHNOW78, Monday, 14 February 2011 8:56:46 AM
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What comes 'after' should be obvious :)

"CITIZINSHIP" A program of re chaneling all funding AWAY from any group or process which is in any way supporting, enhancing, applauding, underlining..."DIFFERENCE"

MC by nature is racist. It suggests that newcomers to our country are superior in culture to us. If not...why would they not wish to embrace out country 'as it is'? After all...they chose to come here.. knowing what it's like....OR....."did they"? PERHAPS....

They came here with the idea of growing their own sub culture, separate society and when strong enough.. to completely transform and rebuild our country along lines more compatible with 'their' culture.

One great DANGER of separate groups in our society is when a trigger event occurs..where the mainstream is one one side and the minority is on another.. this could lead to riots, street blood baths and what not.

Take it or leave it.....
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 8:01:11 AM
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multi-culturism is a buzz/word
its a vehicle to gainer support behind one or other of the main parties... [who sell a local member ..as their hero]..saviour

its about personalisation of their resquers..
for political empowerments
who gave them the promised land

but its more
its about dividing and conquering
its about highlighting our difference..rather than our simultude

its about instaling nationalism
in lue of traditional vieuws and values

its a lot more..
inid-genus means sans culture
[we are all AB-origonal ;holding our own cultures]

but we will only get sidetracked
into the other issues

what comes after..is no doudt the me me thing
[if your not in a group..not classified within your peers
then your an individual ..in lue-of.. being a clone]

there will be other forms of group think
queenslanders vs the cockroaches type thing

why does anything need to come 'after' multi-cultrure
it can only be its inverse mono-culture anti-culture.. individualism

we are all ab-origonal..[from some place]
in affect we essentially are made ..strangers in a strange land
govt tries to tie us into class-if-i-cations..

but in the end ..its only how we class-ify ourselves
no more them or us look for the me ..hidden in we

Me
...
We
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 8:09:51 AM
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Multiculture is an idea promoted by those who believe Australia's - democratic free - Judeau-Christian culture is of little value to them and desite another culture to become dominant in Australia. Unless people assimilate they will conflict or dominate an existing free culture. It forms social divisions that borders usually isolate; but trying to coexist in the same borders results in conflict. No amount of goodwill will stop conflict, and putting all in one big melting pot with different values only breeds cultural friction.

Take an example: What is the position and role of women in the culture?
Posted by Philo, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 8:40:59 AM
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Multiculturalism is a phylosophy that rates original culture ahead of national loyality.

A form of social engineering that has failed.

What should follow now is integration.

It as taken the politicians a long time to realize this.

Now let us see if the polys have the guts to put their words into action. I somehow doubt it.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 9:02:50 AM
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One under god:

Just to build a bit on your “priority tag”;

God
---
Christianity
---
Other religions
---
We
---
Me.
Posted by diver dan, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 9:46:47 AM
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Well, well, like bees to a honeypot, the xenophobes are out of their holes this morning!

TRUTHNOW78

"With Merkel, Cameron, Sarkozy and Howard all saying multiculturalism has failed ..."

What would you expect? These leaders all sit well to the right of the political spectrum. Ensuring a fair go for all and encouraging acceptance and understanding of those different to themselves has never been one of their priorities.

Banjo

"Multiculturalism is a phylosophy that rates original culture ahead of national loyality."

Multiculturalism is a philosophy which allows immigrants to value their original culture or heritage AS WELL AS that of their newly adopted countries, which, by reason of them having emigrated in the first place, they obviously respect and admire.

Surely we are big enough and gracious enough to allow immigrants to retain some of their own cultural practices which, especially in the early days of their relocation, still hold personal significance and often give much-needed reassurance to them. In time, and when treated with respect and generosity, most of these new arrivals gradually take on the practices of their new country.
Posted by Bronwyn, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 10:10:21 AM
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Do they need to have a policy on it? Why can't they just not have a policy? Abolish all laws, bureaucracies and policies to do with multi-culturalism.
Posted by Peter Hume, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 10:33:59 AM
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I find a form of cowardice in the thread.
An unwillingness to highlight Multiculturalism is not the concern most have.
I may well be censored here but I truly believe we America the world benefit from a form of cultural exchange bought by migration.
Here goe,s can I say this? I truly do not know, PC rules us all, I think we, some of us, fear a religion that is also a culture.
That is so different than our culture it is like mixing stone instead of six Penny's in the Christmas pudding.
I saw all those leaders say it failed and agree but why can we not be honest the failure is not the idea it is its implementation in relation to a culture that all too often is both political and religion as well,, even more wants separation in my country.
Even wants their laws not ours.
Can we be honest, except I will be called racist not true but one day we will know this is never going to work.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 11:02:41 AM
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ddan wwwrote..qquote

''Just to build a bit on your “priority tag”;

God
---''

creation
love
life
the messengers

the teachers
the doers
the servers

others
mothers
fathers

home
family
feelings
emotions

knowledge
[peace]

and an endless list of other things more important than

''Christianity
---
Other religions
---
We
---
Me.'

then there is us/them
my works..your works
not just as long as it works

i appriciate your trying to simplify
but it isnt that simple..for egsample..
the hungry ..put food at the top of their list

it takes all sorts..but to try to drag it back to topic
multiculturism reveals gods many divergent aspect...few are the cultures who didnt get their messenger's..or dont hold the good things as a sacared trust

im reminded that we are a part of the land
that is a part of gods creation

personally i would like to see religeons ..get it together
and stop serving creed/greed..and serving gods creation..all of it

bnot just their little bit of it
what comes after multi-cultur-isms
no more -isms

mono=thiesim?
minimalistic thiest -ism
that rejoices in our divergent cultures

taking the best teachings from them all
moderating the creed/greed..serving need
but holding all of them in sacred trust
keeping them alive..to reveal their lessons in toto
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 11:04:52 AM
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'Well, well, like bees to a honeypot, the xenophobes are out of their holes this morning!'

And like flies to a sh!t, the PC brigade will follow.

'Surely we are big enough and gracious enough to allow immigrants to retain some of their own cultural practices which, especially in the early days of their relocation, still hold personal significance and often give much-needed reassurance to them. In time, and when treated with respect and generosity, most of these new arrivals gradually take on the practices of their new country'

eh? What planet have you been living on? In most cases, it is like AlGore warned 'They came here with the idea of growing their own sub culture, separate society and when strong enough.. to completely transform and rebuild our country along lines more compatible with 'their' culture.'

These awful leaders from ' the right of the political spectrum' only want their countries back. I hope Australia grows the balls to do the same.
Posted by Austin Powerless, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 11:28:56 AM
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AGIR <"'They came here with the idea of growing their own sub culture, separate society and when strong enough.. to completely transform and rebuild our country along lines more compatible with 'their' culture.'"

Ok then Al, I didn't realise you were such a strong advocate for Aboriginal Australian rights then?

The above statement explains exactly what happened (and is still happening) to them in their own country.

What's good for the goose...
Posted by suzeonline, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 12:00:46 PM
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So what comes after multiculturalism? War in the streets probably, or subjugation of the current population, if they don't have the guts to fight.

Yes Peter Hume, but you should go a little further.

All language other than English should be banned in education or government function. Nothing like having to speak the same language to help integration.

Oh, & mate, the same should go for everything to do with the word "aboriginal". A bit of integration would help them, & get rid of a lot of white bludgers.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 12:09:10 PM
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Austin Powerless,
In support of your comments, I submitt the following quote:-

Former Algerian president Houari Boumedienne "One day millions of men will leave Arabia to go to Europe. And they will not go there as friends. They will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory"

This is what has taken the European leaders so many years to realize as they followed a path of appeasment.

Fine words from the three, but let us see if they 'walk the walk'

Bronwyn,
MC is also a phylosophy that fosters seperate development, with a federation of ethnic cultures. Why has it failed? Because it divides people into seperate tribes and the cultures clash. The Sunni and Shia in Iraq, for example.

We need one community!
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 12:19:40 PM
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Agir wrote "They came here with the idea of growing their own sub culture, separate society, and when strong enough to completely transform and rebuild our country along lines more compatible with "their" culture".

Nice quote from you there about multiculturalism agir.

Therefore ----

You believe that from 1788 this aboriginal land was taken over by those with their own sub culture and separate community and that when strong enough they completely transformed and rebuilt this land along lines more compatible with "their" culture

Therefore, using that exact same logic ----

If you're against multiculturalism then you are anti 1788 and onwards white settlement, and you're also pro 1788 aboriginal culture and self determination.

Or do you live by double standards in this regard agir?
Posted by courageous, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 1:39:14 PM
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courageous,
Do you believe we should all have adopted aboriginal culture? We are still paying the price of intergration after 200 years. Multiculture does not work - is the conclusion. Playing the aboriginal card only verifies the failure of multiculturalism - the new dominant culture wins.
Posted by Philo, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 2:04:31 PM
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Banjo

"Bronwyn, MC is also a phylosophy that fosters seperate development, with a federation of ethnic cultures."

I don't think it does. To my way of thinking it promotes a united community, one in which people of all ethnicities are equally valued and welcomed and in which all are encouraged to contribute to the common good.

Any 'separate development' that has occurred is as much a result of exclusionary factors operating within the dominant culture as it is a result of immigrants deliberately choosing to separate into enclaves of difference.

"Why has it failed?"

Multiculturalism hasn't 'failed'. Granted, there are problems, but these are as much a result of population pressures and the growing divide between the haves and the have-nots as they are a result of multiculturalism itself.

"Because it divides people into seperate tribes and the cultures clash. The Sunni and Shia in Iraq, for example."

The problems between the Sunni and Shia, as between the Israelis and Palestinians and between many other opposing groups, are not necessarily a result of difference in culture. More often than not they result from longstanding tensions created by the arbitrary imposition of land boundaries, which more frequently than most of us care to admit have occurred at the hands of Western interference.

"We need one community!"

I agree. However, I don't think demanding complete assimilation (and in effect subservience) will lead to 'one community'. Certainly not one as richly diverse and interesting as we currently experience in Australia. And certainly not one I'd want to live in.
Posted by Bronwyn, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 2:25:12 PM
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Bronwyn:

Welcome back. You have been greatly missed.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 2:32:09 PM
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We need one community!"

I agree. However, I don't think demanding complete assimilation (and in effect subservience) will lead to 'one community'. Certainly not one as richly diverse and interesting as we currently experience in Australia. And certainly not one I'd want to live in.
Posted by Bronwyn, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 2:25:12 PM

Little point in I saying anything, being vilifed in Australia is part and parcel living here, and dont I have huge story to tell about it, but again....little point, since No Australian wants to see or here it.
I think a little call to a current affairs or something thats not contaminated with the likes of certain sad people that thinks they own the whole show.

However, whats good for the goose, is good for the gander:)

How about what I get called! The green fag by RPG, being quite funny since Iam married with five children or a pedophile by brainless rednecks with insecurity issues or do I have to go on about the endless harrasment, which most people know whats going on and do nothing about it.

And you wonder why some cultures cant stand you.......I dont want to call people hypocrites, but if the shoe fits.

BLUE
Posted by Deep-Blue, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 2:58:39 PM
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I find common ground even with Banjo here not an easy task.
Con your selves if you like but in truth Australians feel threatened by one culture/religion that is also firmly a form of government.
And do not look to Arabia for such threats.
Here in our country a man who leads in his community has said in 50 years this country will be under Sharia law.
I see every day real concerns real fear, if we could only drop the nice PC only see the other side, ask if it is true in our country children are being told this country one day will be theirs not ours.
Considered opinion not rants real fears shared by most not racism.
Remember PC is a tool minority's use to keep majority views hidden.
We proudly prosper from migration, once multiculturalism was about two cultures now it for some is one and that is not ours.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 3:24:40 PM
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If multiculturalism was not such a failure then major parties would allow the Aussie public to vote on it. I have little doubt the majority would vote against further Muslim immigration. Unfortunately the academic left know better. They won't allow democracy to work and will continue to destroy the values that once made this a great country to live in. The same has happened in Britain, France, Holland, Germany etc etc. The people have never been asked because the totally failed social engineers know best.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 3:36:48 PM
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If multiculturalism was not such a failure then major parties would allow the Aussie public to vote on it.

Well thank god racism is not a problem, since the major majority dont want to share their stolen land. Dont plat the indiginious card.....please....lol.....if your not happy with number 2 post, go back to the first one:)

See some dont hate, but like most.....its all in your heads, and facts are what most are looking for:)

Next:)

BLUE
Posted by Deep-Blue, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 4:01:47 PM
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Bronwyn,
Remove the blinkers and the rose coloured glasses and have a good look around. Face reality. The palistinians and the Isralies will never get on, because the muslim religion instructs muslims to kill Jews. The euphoria, when Saddam's statue came down, in Iraq only lasted a couple of weeks then the Sunnis and the Shia were blowing each other up and have been ever since, over cultural differences. The Sunni and Shia had a go here, in Auburn, on a polling day. The Croats and Serbs have been fighting for centuries and still do here after 3 generations. Now the Sri Lankans and the Tamils are fighting each other here. The lebs get on with no one. Do you simply accept that as 'interesting'.

What about polygamy, forced marriage, honout killings and FGM, are they too part of our 'richly diverse' community. Let us also open up eateries where dog meat is served, wok fried spiders, animals penises and human placenta are on the menu, that would be 'interesting'.

Sorry but MC has failed because of vast cultural differences and because of some very entrenched hatreds between some ethnic groups.

We accept people from many countries but we still expect them to abide by our basic laws and social standards. We are multi-racial but it is wrong to claim we are multicultural. We have our own culture and accept some aspects of other cultures, but certainly not all.

Thankfully, it seems governments are beginning to see this and the 40 year experiment in social engineering may come to an end
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 4:49:48 PM
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the 40 year experiment in social engineering may come to an end.
Banjo,
I hope you're right. Problem is that the academics bureaucrats will probably come up with something even worse. They'll need to create a replacement industry.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 5:28:30 PM
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I said a long time ago," All is not ready to mix right now"..so the capitalist have sped up the prosess for nothing more than bigger profits at the peoples exspence. However, there is one point that nobodies talks about, and its why we needed it?.....well back, a time ago, some very bright spark thought, 'unless we steady up the gen pool, the deep south will and would of had fallen into the in-dreeding that failings, into which in turn, would of spelt disastrous for the long term.

So....from what Ive read so far, you all want a war:) wont happen, it kills all you have now. So be understanding or get along......Its your choice. You or we, can not undo whats already here, and you try, I hope you get a deportation notice:) The human-being is still very much tribel in all that they wish to push the line of evolvement. So what are we left with.....mmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe a box of bannanas might be in order:)

Maybe a third World War is calling or maybe......just shake hands.

I dont know.....sham WOW:)

Its like reading the menu with no favourite dish:) But onced cooked, very tasty for the grand of all you can eat:)

BLUE
Posted by Deep-Blue, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 5:29:17 PM
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All I can add to this discussion is a single observation. In any class of Aussie kids with Anglo surnames, a bit of research finds that many of their grandparents were immigrants during the past 60 years. It shows that the immigrants of that era assimilated to the point where their children or grandchildren married Aussies or other nationalities. That is what a meshed multicultural society should exhibit after a few generations.

Exampling the largest ethnic group of migrants over the past thirty years, good luck on finding a reasonable percentage of Aussie kids of Middle Eastern heritage who have anything other than their own gene pool in their DNA. That is the issue with Middle Eastern Immigrants, Christian or Muslim, they marry their own, which keeps them segregated from our society.

So the multiculturalists invented "multiculturalism" on the well observed practicality of "if they won't change, we will change the majority to accommodate them and their right to be nuptial segregationalists". America got rid of social segregation in the 1960 and we began importing cultural segregation in 1970.

How do you define a group who share a language, only marry into their own gene pool, choose to live in defined areas, and come from nations that have been in ongoing political and religious upheaval...a fifth column waiting to happen perhaps?
Posted by sonofgloin, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 5:34:04 PM
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That is the issue with Middle Eastern Immigrants, Christian or Muslim, they marry their own,...Rubbish! Too late my friend, already mixed. Would you like some proof?

The 19th, are the only one's that will have the hardest time with dealing with it all, but not the next gen......its already on its way......and old, and out of date, is no longer needed.

BLUE
Posted by Deep-Blue, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 5:45:08 PM
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After the Russian Revelation many thought communism was great, those who opposed it often called fools and worse.
Between the two world wars warnings about Japan got ignored and some said they are our Friends and fought with us.
The unconvinced suffered ridicule.
Hitlers rise was seen here in Britain and America by some as great.
Those opposed? rubbished.
We stand today troubled because almost every one who is warning this social engineering is not working is being called names.
I bet, everything I own, many who support my views would welcome ANY MIGRANT, who did not want to impose another culture on us,who wanted while remaining proud of his/her heritage to blend in without changing us.
Have I this right, lets test it, I want no religion, none, to be involved in politics, so involved they run some country's.
I want no culture that has women walking behind men.
I think ,truly fearfully a culture that is a living of shoot of a religion that is intruding on government is a step back in to the middle ages.
Please may we stop blaming every culture, this country is great because of migration, if PC demands we muffle our true thoughts then lets hear no more of the other sides views.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 6:12:53 PM
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I think it's always best to do a bit of research and get some facts
before making sweeping generalisations on any topic - but especially a highly emotive one like "multiculturalism." There are always two sides to every story - nothing is ever that simple. And you need to not only look at both sides, but around the edges at times as well. There are often reasons for why many people stick to their "own kind" especially when they're not made to feel so welcome in the broader community. Aussies congregate together when overseas - be it London, Hollywood, or elsewhere. It's often a normal thing to do - especially when you're having problems adjusting to your new place. Anyway - for what it's worth - and just to present another point of view the following website may be of interest to some:

http://australiansall.com.au/archive/post/australia-s-dangerous-fantasy/
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 6:52:09 PM
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Belly/lexi......true thoughts are for those who look for them.

BLUE
Posted by Deep-Blue, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 7:13:07 PM
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Belly,
I have no trouble in agreeing with you.

What I am against is this government imposed pseudo 'multiculturalism' that started in the 70s and we have spent millions catering to this and that ethnic group.

I think the migration from 45 to 70 was a big success because they integrated. We called them 'New Australians' and not by some ethnic name which had ethnic leaders.

You likely won't agree with this but, I think we should recognise that some groups are incompatable and we shold stop importing those groups that cannot/will not integrate. This be done from our own experience. There are only a few groups that are like this as most problems are sorted by next generation.

It seems the MC advocates only see the nice things, like children in colourfull costumes, dragon parades, more eateries and beer festivals. They seem to ignore the baggage that comes with some groups

We owe it to our childrens children to ensure we have a cohesive community
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 7:14:49 PM
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Another website that may be of interest:

http://www.themonthly.com.au/islamism-islamophobia-and-australia-yes-virginia-there-clash-civilisations-robert-manne-267
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 7:36:15 PM
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>> About Eva Sallis
Eva Sallis, an Australian writer, is co-founder of Australians Against Racism – an organization that seeks to raise awareness of human rights and social justice through the media, arts and education.<<

Lexi, this woman could not identify an elephant in a herd of mice.

To paint "the Cronulla riots" as seething racism is sensationalist rubbish. Middle Eastern youth plagued Cronulla and surrounds for years becoming a general and all encompassing pain in the posterior.

It was then and is still now a policing issue......full stop.

I vividly recall before the influx of Middle Easterners that our youth would battle it out in beach suburbs every year or so, the allegiance then was to your beach, Bondi vs Bronte, Bronte vs Coogee, northern beaches vs southern, and Maroubra vs them all.

There is a real issue though Lexi, and that is as I stated the majority of Middle Easterners are going to marry another Middle Easterner. There is a social anomaly with societies removed from their home country and that is that the displaced society tends to conform more rigidly to the old countries societal rules even when the home society has evolved or transformed through modernity.
Posted by sonofgloin, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 8:08:13 PM
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Populations shift. Human migration is the one constant in the history of the species.
Why are we all so surprised when we're reminded that "things change"?
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 8:28:50 PM
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Poirot:>> Populations shift. Human migration is the one constant in the history of the species.
Why are we all so surprised when we're reminded that "things change"?<<

True Periot, things change, but things can also be managed.
Posted by sonofgloin, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 9:40:17 PM
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Dear Lexi, you truly are a breath of fresh air! Where are the other voices of reason that once inhabited this space?

Your links to Eva Sallis and Robert Manne provide some much needed perspective. Hopefully, those here whose irrational fears are driving them toward hate can read and learn.

As Eva Sallis concludes, "If contemporary Australians are to live at ease with ourselves, we need more education, less fear mongering and, not least, greater honesty about the culture of racism that is so damaging us."
Posted by Bronwyn, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 11:15:13 PM
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Browyn writes

'Hopefully, those here whose irrational fears are driving them toward hate can read and learn.'

I would actually hope that those who deny the ugliness of Sharia law, circumcism of young girls, polygamy, the raping of 'meat' the planned attacks on Australian bases, the forming of ghettos would come out of denial. Then again these things a a 'small' price to pay in order to pretend to tolerate the intolerable.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 11:39:56 PM
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Saying that multiculturalism (MC) is all about tolerance is like saying cigarette smoking is all about stress reduction.

Reading some of the defenders posts it’s pretty clear they have little real idea of what MC entails.

Bronwyn says : “ Multiculturalism… allows immigrants to value their original culture or heritage AS WELL AS that of their newly adopted countries”
No--there is no “AS WELL AS “ in MC theology ; you can simply transplant your little ghetto hollus-bollus from Cairo to Sydney –It’d be in keeping with good MC.

I'll concede that up till now most immigrants have in time tended to blend into an evolving OZ culture. But that was before satellite dishes and the internet provided 24/7 infusions from the old country . And it has been more a function of our economic well being than anything to do with MC.

Bronwyn again:“ Surely we are big enough and gracious enough to allow immigrants to retain some of their own cultural practices which, especially in the early days of their relocation”
No—MC doesn’t talk about “some of their …practices… in the early days” Govts have committed to funding it indefinitely.

And this from the same poster : “ AS WELL AS that of their newly adopted countries, which, by reason of them having emigrated in the first place, they obviously respect and admire.”
Is equally suss, when you see increasingly frequent happenings like the following (either in OZ or other MC experimenter-nations)
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-army-base-suicide-strike-was-imminent/story-e6freuy9-1225757788303

Being opposed to MC doesn’t necessarily mean you’re anti-foreign (or as Bronwyn politely puts it --xenophobic ). To use a litmus dear the hearts of MC faithful – you may still visit ethnic restaurants 3-4 times a week or the French or Italian film festivals ---rather, It often means you believe the time and money being pumped into MC could be better utilised elsewhere.

Peter Hume encapsulates it well:
“Do they need to have a policy on it? Why can't they just not have a policy? Abolish all laws, bureaucracies and policies to do with multi-culturalism.”
Posted by SPQR, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 4:16:14 AM
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NEVER forget this issue is not just red necks, it is not just the right,not just anything.
IF today we voted on this issue numbers would stun some.
The center, from both sides,is concerned.
Lexi/Bronwyn with respect, I for both of you, take this on board.
Not culture but one religion that is a culture and a political force,that has the power with numbers under 2% to tell us Christmas offends them!
I take the thought I am red neck in some minds but tell me,on what evidence was Cronulla a one sided shameful event.
What bought it on, some saw those young people much alike those in Egypt this month.
I predict we will have to lose this thread down,because we're not able in this country to have a say about this if we get too near our true feelings.
Do not Bronwyn use the freedom of speech we have so far, to denigrate the majority of us.
Let no one say we are racist but ignore our concerns we are an experiment bound for failure and trouble,an at atempt to breed hate out of humanity.
And for those like me,concerned about all reildgions ,remember we have the same rights as any religion to our thoughts.
This issue unites not divides, this issue is growing and world wide.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 5:00:53 AM
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Dear Suz.... I was browsing replies and thinking about who to respond to..then..I saw YOURS :) zoooooommmmmm.... went the 'target acquisition' module of my weapons systems.

You highlight the very point I was making. "Aboriginal" yep.. you got it.

Here's the thing. If we don't recognize how WE (our ancestors) acted towards the original culture here.. then we just don't get human nature.

"Recognition" is one thing.. LEARNING from it is another. What do we learn from our own history? verrrrrrry simple.... if not checked... new people/cultures will inevitably use their numbers and power to overcome/demolish/change/alter the culture into which they have come.

So.. well you may thank me for advocating Aboriginal rights.. as I also thank you for proving my point :)

BRONWYN.. a very warm (if disagreeable) welcome back!

//Surely we are big enough and gracious enough to allow immigrants to retain some of their own cultural practices which, especially in the early days of their relocation, still hold personal significance and often give much-needed reassurance to them.//

Err...in an ideal world with perfect humans... yes yes yes.. no drama.. what you describe is 'tolerance'. In fact I'm not aware of the 'anti mc' mob seeking to extinguish all remnants of original culture in newcomers.

HOWWWWEVER...when you see examples of the tendency of SOME "newcomers" to assert unlawful practices on us in the name of that 're-assuring' original culture... we stand firm *no*.

Polygamy.. good ol Keysar Trad http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/lifestyle/news/protect-polygamy-for-women/story-e6frf00r-1111116729230

Victoria, Australia, Dec. 06, 2007
Satnam Singh

Australia's Victorian State parliamentary committee has given the green light to carry small kirpan- a small, curved ornamental steel dagger to school by sikh students for religious reasons. BUT this plan or move has outraged principals and teachers.

ERRRRR..... "outraged?" ...*no kidding* :)

Just tell us you oppose such things and we are all on the same page.

Xenophobia? hardly.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 5:29:47 AM
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Aaah Bronny :) nothing like a little lefty pink spin and Anti-Capitalist rant there :)

//Multiculturalism hasn't 'failed'. Granted, there are problems, but these are as much a result of population pressures and the growing divide between the haves and the have-nots as they are a result of multiculturalism itself.//

Hmmm "Haves" and "Have-nots" eh.....bless you my child :) oops.. or should I say "religion is the opiate of the masses" ? *wink*

SOLUTION. The simplest solution to the problem of migrants with a different cultural background is firstly just enjoy them as people.. without feeling we need to pander to 'their' culture.. we just be 'us' and they come along.. and we welcome them..and after 3 generations you won't know the bleeding difference except maybe the surname.

But to have a specific 'policy' called "Multi" culturalism and then..worse.. to FUND it ? that's lunacy.

LEXI.....you say:

//There are often reasons for why many people stick to their "own kind" especially when they're not made to feel so welcome in the broader community. //

Sooooo....logically, IF the 'problem' is 'they don't feel welcome' THEN surely the solution is... to put funding and social expertise into removing that barrier....?

IF NOT...(not the logical constructs here?) and the 'difference' is exacerbated and enhanced by deliberate policy... is that going to cause the host to be 'more' welcoming of the guest?
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 5:40:57 AM
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Bronwyn,

As long as we remember that 'culture', anthropologically speaking, is the prettified cover for the power structure in a particular society, which in turn is derived from that society's economic make-up: it is used to justify whatever rules, and whoever rules, and however they rule.

Some 'cultures' are vicious and contemptible crap on that criterion, some are not. There is nothing holy or untouchable about the concept.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 7:54:20 AM
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Runner

"I would actually hope that those who deny the ugliness of Sharia law, circumcism of young girls, polygamy, the raping of 'meat' the planned attacks on Australian bases, the forming of ghettos would come out of denial. Then again these things a a 'small' price to pay in order to pretend to tolerate the intolerable."

I in no way tolerate female genital mutilation, polygamy, rape, stoning or any other such practice that violates and demeans women and find the insinuation that I do quite offensive. The only way to eradicate such practices is through education and the empowerment of women and much good work is being done and progress made throughout the world. It will only gather pace as oppressed women around the globe further engage with societies such as ours where these practices are not tolerated.

Belly

"Not culture but one religion that is a culture and a political force,that has the power with numbers under 2% to tell us Christmas offends them!"

The majority of Muslims in Australia are not at all interested in telling Australians how to celebrate C/mas. Those who are comprise only a tiny minority, but fortunately for them our commercial media has grabbed hold of their words and sensationalised them out of all proportion. Incidentally, I find it just as offensive to be dictated to on this, as we are every year, by the homegrown religious fraternity.

Loudmouth

"..'culture', anthropologically speaking, is the prettified cover for the power structure in a particular society, which in turn is derived from that society's economic make-up: it is used to justify whatever rules, and whoever rules, and however they rule."

I agree completely. That applies to Western societies as much as any other.

"Some 'cultures' are vicious and contemptible crap on that criterion, some are not."

All 'cultures' contain both good and bad, ours included.

AGIR

BRONWYN.. a very warm (if disagreeable) welcome back!

Unfortunately, it probably will for the most part be disagreeable. You may have changed your alias many times over but your thinking hasn't progressed much at all.
Posted by Bronwyn, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 9:23:49 AM
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This thread has developed in a them and us thing, whereas the real question is whether or not the European countries will dismantle MC and how will they go about it. Outright changes and tighter controls on immigration will surely lead to serious conflict.

Here in Aus, the Howard government just quietly dropped the concept and the use of the word, and the Rudd/Gillard government has followed this line. I think they have both woken up to the failure of MC and are willing to let it die away quietly.

Will the Europeans do the same, to avoid conflict, or is the MC influence there so great now that a turn around is impossible.

Interesting to see if anything developes from the words spoken by the influencial European leaders.

Can these leaders stop further Islamization of Europe?
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 9:29:58 AM
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Now it seems Holland is on the same wavelength.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2011/02/multiculturalism_has_failed_ve.php
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 10:01:42 AM
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Bronny.. my thinking has not 'progressed' because I am not a 'progressive/socialist'. I have a moral anchor.

You make a couple of noteworthy points:

"The only way to eradicate such practices is through education and the empowerment of women"

Now..that was in relation to polygamy fgm etc. I'd love to explore the presuppositions you hold laying behind that assertion.

You see it as:

Cultural problem.....
Educational solution....

But your presupposition is that let's say "Polygamy" is a bad thing, and that as women are liberated from this oppressive cultural baggage it will dissappear. (correct?)

I'll proceed on the basis of that being the case, and you can correct me next post if I'm wrong.

Ok.. are you not forgetting that the practice of "Polygamny" has it's roots in "Allah said..." also, the subculture where this is found, is a male dominated, controlled society. So there are 2 barriers.
1/ Blokes
2/ Allah

You might be able to overcome 1 by education, but not 2 because if a group of people are convinced that "Allah said thus and so" do you realistically expect such convictions to simply dissappear through secular education ? (considering also that this group has it's own schools)

Love to know your thoughts on that ?
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 12:26:54 PM
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There is a whole lot of smoke being blown here, in the name of what each of us considers to be "multiculturalism".

Some demonstrate blatant "wogs out" posturing:

>>One great DANGER of separate groups in our society is when a trigger event occurs..where the mainstream is one one side and the minority is on another.. this could lead to riots, street blood baths and what not.<<

Boaz echoes Enoch Powell: "As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see 'the River Tiber foaming with much blood'"

(Enoch's audience was fully aware that he was paraphrasing the Sybil in Aeneid 6, prophesying "Bella, horrida bella, et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno". Would that our politicians today had a tenth of their education... but I digress.)

Point is, there have always been, and always will be, people who fear difference. Not "grudgingly put up with", but genuinely, viscerally fear anything that is different.

Then at the other end of the spectrum are the wussie PC brigade, who would rather dig up their grandma than be accused of being offensive to anyone. These are the folk that the fear-mongers automatically identify with "multiculturalism", and campaign against them accordingly.

My view is that we should summarily ditch the term "multiculturalism", along with all its PC baggage, and instead simply concentrate on two things: being nice to other people (that includes, by the way, tolerating some of the newer immigrants' idiosyncracies), and maintaining the rule of law (that includes, by the way, society's continuing abhorrence of genital mutilation etc.)

There will always be "special interest groups" whose entire existence depends upon their ability to suck at the teat of taxpayer funds. There will be a few in this category who use our money to fund their continuing ghettoisation. These, along with a whole host of similar organizations, who rely for their continuance on tax exemptions of various kinds, I would encourage to do without our charity.

If we can do that, everybody wins.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 1:02:14 PM
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We are forming two crowds,well a crowd and a small but vocal group.
I am one of the crowd,being splattered by the out fall of Boazy comments I would feel better in the little plastic house on wheels some nice bloke Kevin put out the back.
Yet my mob, so far, look just like any other group, we are not you will find silly, or card carrying members of one nation[ quaint isn't it? them e mailing the Libs?]
Not too many of us hate any one, few are unhappy with any nations people, no lynch mobs here.
Bet most like me would like to see only good for these folk.
More freedom in everything life has to offer, just not here.
But it will be highlighted we,Representatives of MAINSTREAM Australia, are bigoted.
PC is the enemy of good , free speech,and the voice of the people.
I would hope all mankind one day will confront any group, any God and ask why we need so many Gods, why any God should control us 24/7 on every thing we do,and why a blind need to cuddle others blinds some to the pain inflicted on the many.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 1:31:35 PM
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The moslem send their daughters back to where they come from to marry, then migrate their husband back here. So where's the M C in that.
What they are doing is setting up an islamic state within AU. There is no intergration.
I say it is a mistake to immigrate these people, can only cause conflict in time to come, within our own country.
Posted by 579, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 1:37:54 PM
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579.

'Migrate' and 'immigrate' are intransitive verbs: one migrates to or from somewhere, one does not 'migrate' anything or anyone and people's agency or volition deserve that much respect.

Pericles,

As you say, ' ... there have always been, and always will be, people who fear difference.'

But there do seem to be almost as many people who fear similarity or equality, who cannot stomach the notion that other people should have similar rights to themselves, and who are completely comfortable with the notion of innate hierarchies - with themselves at the apex, of course.

Then again, many people believe so firmly in their inferiority and that IT thereby entitles them to a greater share of the cake. I'm sure that Individual would understand this point: I've heard at least one Aboriginal mother declaim: 'White people know we're inferior, so they know we can't look after our kids like they can', as a justification ofr palming their kids off onto other women.

Actually, I am coming to believe that many, many people cannot grasp the concept of human equality at all, with its implications of specific idiosyncrasies in other people as well as themselves, and of similar entitlements and obligations of other people as well as themselves - to grasp simultaneously the notions of equality and difference. 'What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander' is not an easy principle to understand, for many people.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 2:22:59 PM
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Sadly, I may be reaching the same conclusion Joe.

>>Actually, I am coming to believe that many, many people cannot grasp the concept of human equality at all<<

Listening to some folk, it is almost as if they regard the fact that they were born white in Australia as something of their own devising, rather than just another outcome of the crazy lottery of life.

Guy Rundle has a few words to say on the topic in today's Crikey.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/02/16/rundle-the-multiculti-waters-run-deep-and-warm/

It's a long piece - 2,000 words or so, but here are a couple of snippets.

"The word [multiculturalism] has become so overlaid with multiple meanings as to have none at all. No one who criticises it ever seeks to define it, for quite deliberate reasons."

Ain't that the truth. He goes on to say...

"Once upon a time, the myth goes, immigration in the US, Australia and elsewhere, was conducted in perfect harmony. People came in, they left their cultures at the entry port, and a few funny foods aside, they took up the values and beliefs of the host country. Then, in the 1960s and '70s, bad cultural relativist social scientists designed policies whereby people could keep their own beliefs and cultures when they came, and we would regard all cultures as equivalent. The result, the myth goes, has been chaos, division, hatred, ghettos, etc, etc.

Nothing of this myth is true. The huge US immigration intake from 1865-1924, produced whole communities entirely separate by language, culture, etc, and thoroughly ghettoised. Until the 1940s, most big US cities could support a daily paper in Yiddish, Polish, German, etc... Until the postwar period, the great division in Australia was between Protestants and Catholics (or Romans, as my grandmother referred to them) -- a division that produced riots, sectarian murder, social movements, political split, etc. This division only became sealed over when fresh divisions became possible as "new Australians" flooded in during the '50s."

There's more. It's a good read. Worth registering for.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 4:06:23 PM
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Good golly miss molly.. Pericles is on my page :)

At last Perilous you have gravitatee to common sense for a change.

//My view is that we should summarily ditch the term "multiculturalism", along with all its PC baggage//

and.. dare I say it..that is about 99.9% of my position.

I use the illustrations of Trad and Polygamy simple to show how the 'social representatives' of segmented groups act when they don't 'get' that we are all equal but even so.. OUR law rules. (OUR Law=the one in existence when they applied to migrate)

People should damn well realize that when you slap your host culture with a smelly rotten cultural/religious trout...they won't be thrilled with the odour.

So it's quite legitimate to mention those examples because it is 'they' which define our opposition to MC.

I much prefer YOUR approach and I've only been advocating it for hmmmm errr 5 yrs and 5million posts!

"Equality" has many dimensions.

-Political
-Human worth
-Social
-Religious
-Cultural

Unfortunately, when some of your religious or political beliefs are in direct conflict with the host country... you either shape up...or BE SHIPPED OUT (as far as I'm concerned)

If dills like Trad and ilk DIDN'T try this raw prawn stunt.. or his co-religionists trampling on 5000 objections to a prayer hall.. I doubt that any of us would be saying "boo".

But..they did..and thus we do.

*boo*

If such people use the argument "We are a democracy and everyone is entitled to change the law" ok..fine.. but watch for a very big "BOO" if they try that in order to establish their own 'sectarian' interests politically. PS.. the same would apply for "Protestant" or.."Catholic" attempts at the same. Anyone for Chaplains in schools? :)
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 5:15:30 PM
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JuliaGillardhasFailed it has been my bad luck to have followed you around here today.
Can I ask that you tone the insults down a bit?
See we will be different but why boots and all treatment you are handing out?
I am no socialist lefty or anything else you charge us with.
Your bigotry is not helping here.
Loudmouth Pericles may I ask this.
If I went to live in Saudi Arabia could I walk the streets in thongs and shorts because it is my national dress.
Could I drink in the park because I can do it here.
Can you see me coming home if I published a story saying Christians would take over in 50 years?
In fact for every charge you lay against us consider if the side you talk for would defend me for being different than them.
Remember posters do not except PC saying you can not say what you want.
Remember too if we ever get a vote it will be stunning just how big the vote will be, clearly stating this part of MC is never going to work.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 5:17:21 PM
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Pericles,

I am honoured by your praise. But I really did mean everyone, left and right, finding it difficult to understand the concept of human equality '.... with its implications of specific idiosyncrasies in other people as well as themselves, and of similar entitlements and obligations of other people as well as themselves.'

In many ways, democracy sometimes is the process of discovering, the hard way, that one is neither better than nor worse than anybody else, that what one demands, so can others, that one cannot impose one's beliefs on others any more than they can theirs on us, and what obligations and demands one puts on others can be applied to oneself. At least, it ought to be, where Karl Popper's 'negative freedom' meets political equality.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 6:35:13 PM
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Again I must ask,can I say this?
Can I say something I believe totally, may be not.
My first post in this thread asked that we not defame the idea of Multi cultures in our country.
But highlighted a Culture within a religion, that drives poltics and is driven in turn by all three.
Nothing to do but say it and hope, this gigantic problem is being given air because of selective separatism,not enforced by us, but bought with a group.
For every word against this problem such a word comes at us, from people putting us down in our country.
Hide it if you want but this is not multi cultural thing it is one culture.
I wounder why we except the idea if we are nice it will be all right?
weakness only strengthens others.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 6:57:58 PM
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I believe that runner's views are hypocritical in this matter.

Islamic abuse of women is only objectionable to people who have abandoned the "old" testament, not just bits and pieces like the average hypocritical biblical literalist.

Almost all abuses of women and children are approved in the old testament. Presumably runner is adopting a "relativist" stance to object to muslims, yet desiring that their vote for "creationism" be counted. Aren't they just wrong all over runner? or is it you too?

Runner continues to parody a revolting version of christianity that has illegitimate currency in our society, inexplicably.

I hope he continues to do so, as it will continue to highlight the deep offensiveness of "fundamentalism" and so contribute to the decline of such.

Rusty.
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 8:08:33 PM
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How does 'anti-multiculturalism' and 'racism' mesh?
As a country boy, I've always been struck by the number of rednecks who avow "I've only known one good Abo... he was just like a white man".
In other words, it was not about colour or race; it was about a perceived culture of Aboriginality. All they have to do is act like whitefellas, and the problem's gone.
As an atheist, to me the solution is simple. All immigrants are welcome to bring their culture; just leave their religion at home.
I wonder how that would affect the numbers of boat people?
Posted by Grim, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 9:13:05 PM
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Hi Grim,

As an atheist, I don't have a problem with people holding religious views. The problem comes when they (Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, whatever) seek to impose those views on other people, and to intrude those views into government policy.

The separation of church and state occurred, more or less, in Europe some four hundred years ago, after hundreds of years of brutal suppression of dissidence, wars, the burning of heretics, and general devastation, something we can't allow ever to happen again.

Shari'a law advocates seem to be aspiring to again blur the distinction between church and state, to bring about a religious state, with the implication that non-believers or those who do not convert must be the servants of the devil, and deserve to be exterminated, in order to impose the will of Allah on the world.

I have no objection to anybody coming to Australia: the more diverse our cultural mix, the better. But as long as everybody, everybody including fundamentalist Christians, as well as fundamentalist Muslims, keeps their religious views out of the political sphere, then we can live together in a democracy which recognises our human equality and our equal rights to participate in the conduct of our common affairs, as equal citizens.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 9:42:17 PM
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Belly,
I have to disagree with your last post.

Multiculturalism is an ideology and we do find aspects of quite a few cultures alien to our society.

For example, forced marriages, honour killings, caste system, incest and pediphillia are cultural practices that we do not accept. Then there are numberous culinary tastes that we would not approve of.

While I am sure the European leaders were mainly talking about the effect of Islam on their societies, MC embraces far more than that.

As i said before, we are a multi-racial country but not multicultural. Our culture continues to evolve and we accept certain aspects of various cultures and they become part of our culture. But there is no way we accept all aspects of any other culture.

The concept of MC is that it puts original culture ahead of national loyality. It was imposed upon us and we were told we had no culture and foreign cultures were far more important and we had to accept them. It was an experiment in social engineering.
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 9:47:10 PM
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Rusty

The fact that the Scriptures conflict with your godless values certainly brings out the vitriol evident among many of you fundie atheist. Your dishonest representation of the God of Israel is nothing new.The fact is that fundie secularist have more in common with Islam than Christians. The murder of the unborn in masses alongside the sexualisation of kids is the sole domain of the fundie secularist in the name of rights. Your self righteousness knows no bounds.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 11:27:25 PM
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runner
Isn't the God of Israel also the God of Muslims?

I don't think the world is at risk from the "fundie atheist" whatever that means compared to the religious fundamentalists. So far no-one has bombed innocents in the name of atheism. Still much confusion about what atheism is out there in the fundamentalist Christian community. It simply means a lack of belief in the supernatural without evidence.

MC is not the problem, governments need to be much stronger in regard to what is expected from ALL its citizens in rule of law. Many of the problems with Muslim immigration come from fear, some of it exacerbated by the media, some of it based on the actions of a few fundamentalist Muslims, and some of it more urban myth than real.

Muslims also need to come to the party on what it means to be Australian including getting rid of the mindset I witnessed recently on an English program - "You are either a Muslim or not a Muslim" claptrap. This sort of singular and insular attitude does not make one warm to new immigrants and one of the reasons why MC can only work in a truly secular and democratic society otherwise we end up with killing of innocent people based purely on religious differences (such as the recent murder of Christians overseas).
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 11:43:47 PM
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Banjo much of what you say can be laid at the feet of one Culture/religion/political movement,that is in fact one way of life.
Not all I am aware, but are numbers in those others a threat to us,to the western world.
We weaken our case,feed the opposition to it,by not being up front, it is one group feeding the concern I have.
If we split, take on[ and I have no wish to] the whole idea we are beaten by our own words.
Even your claim is not true of 99.9 percent of past migration.
How many understand we are victims of some stupid plan? a plan that considers us an experiment, and thinks in two or three generations we will be one.
I wish those damming us for our views can bring themselves to remember their words in ten years.
It is not for nothing world leaders are saying what we are.
How many of our new migrants are like one recently deported,for teaching terrorism,after 16 years on our dole?
I without fear think we must consider the Australian publics concerns and stop what looks like a UN trial that is never going to work.
One wonderful day all reildgions will be put in the box, yes every one of them intrudes on politics none however like this one
Why should we be pressed by fables into giving up the idea we are all equal.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 17 February 2011 5:25:41 AM
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Dear Runner,

Could you please define what you mean by 'fundie secularist' and explain how they/we are a danger to the rest of society ? Please include in your reply, references to 'open society' and 'inclusive society'.

Thank you,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 17 February 2011 7:38:51 AM
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Not in the wettest of your dreams, Boaz.

>>Good golly miss molly.. Pericles is on my page :)<<

You even prove it yourself.

>>dare I say it..that [ditch the term "multiculturalism"] is about 99.9% of my position<<

No it isn't. Your position is categorically "Muslims, out", as you remind us.

>>Unfortunately, when some of your religious or political beliefs are in direct conflict with the host country... you either shape up...or BE SHIPPED OUT (as far as I'm concerned)<<

Ahem... "religious beliefs... in direct conflict with the host country?" Let's see...

Commonwealth Of Australia Constitution Act, Section 116

"The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion."

Or are you thinking of a different host country?

I have no problem with the alignment of political beliefs, in that we live in a form of democracy that seems to work, and that the establishment of a theocracy, of whatever flavour, is a Really Bad Idea.

You also pick and choose your examples, Boaz:

>>are you not forgetting that the practice of "Polygamny" has it's roots in "Allah said..."<<

Ummm... you are forgetting Exodus 21, which outlined the rules many centuries before Allah became involved. I'm sure you are fully aware of the verses in question. The ones that include instructions on how to sell your daughter, as well as how to treat your first wife when you marry the next ones.

And Banjo, you need to be more specific:

>>The concept of MC is that it puts original culture ahead of national loyality.<<

That is certainly one description, that I think of as the "wussie PC brigade" version, where a bunch of public servants sit around working out how to be nice to everybody. And failing.

Unfortunately, the same term is used by the "Muslims Out" team. As Boaz has amply demonstrated, it is the veneer covering a rampant "mine is the only religion" views.

Which is why I see continued use of the word "multiculturalism" to be a major part of the problem.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 17 February 2011 8:46:26 AM
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Pericles,
I believe my quote to be self explanatory and needs no further detail.

That is my concept of MC and i also believe MC fosters tribalism as against working toward a cohesive community.

I agree with you that the word 'multiculturalism' needs to be dropped from use, as does the ideology. The term is a misnomer at best.

You may recall the Howard government did that and the Rudd/Gillard government has followed on, up until now. Maybe i was jumping the gun to praise them for that, but we will see what unfolds.

I also recall Gillard promoting a concept called 'social inclusion' I think it was. This was done at a speech she made in Sydney before the 2007 election. I believe she had some people working on it at one point, but nothing further has been heard and no details have come out.
Posted by Banjo, Thursday, 17 February 2011 10:15:54 AM
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Oh dear,

Poor runner hasn't read his bible.

He goes to great lengths to portray biblical literalists as ignorant drongoes, does he not?

Runner I applaud your efforts to make fundie "christians" look too dumb to vote. The more you do it, the more apparrant it becomes that such views are correctly excluded from serious consideration.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Thursday, 17 February 2011 11:43:13 AM
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Pelican you ask

'Isn't the God of Israel also the God of Muslims?' I suggest you ask any Muslim whether Allah is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will have your answer. The God of Israel is the Creator of the universe while Allah is a derivative from a moon god.

Loudmouth you ask

'Could you please define what you mean by 'fundie secularist' and explain how they/we are a danger to the rest of society ? Please include in your reply, references to 'open society' and 'inclusive society'.'

The main doctrine of the fundie secularist whether written or worked out is the hate of God. The hate generally comes because their own lifestyles are so perverse that instead of repentance they hold to one of their favourite tennants of faith which of course is moral relativism. The science is settled is another one of their dogmas. The desperation to deny the obvious (a Creator) leads to all sort of ridiculous puffed up statements about origins. Any fool can see through this deception except the 'true believers'. The killing of the unborn is justified by 'science'. Just change the terms of life and you justify anything. Fundie secularist deny the fruit of their philosophy has been shown by the millions upon millions killed by marxism. They love to point to sinful man's actions in killing others if done in the name of God and yet deny the adamic nature.

con't
Posted by runner, Thursday, 17 February 2011 12:11:19 PM
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con't

a prayer written by an unknown author sums up how the fundie secularist deceitfully corrupt the minds of children

'Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.
If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.
Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.
We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.
We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!
Amen
author unknown
Posted by runner, Thursday, 17 February 2011 12:13:43 PM
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Runner,

Forgive me for disagreeing with almost every aspect of your definition of 'fundamental secularist':

* I certainly don't hate religion, or religions, I sympathise with their believers to the extent that it is better to have some set of guidelines rather than none at all: I disagree with their choices of reference point, something supernatural rather than human or hatural, but there you go;

* I probably have some perversities, but no more than the average person: I've been told that I am very boring as well as ugly - are these perversities ?

* I certainly do not support moral relativism, except in the case of mildly-devout and sincere religious believers such as yourself;

* you may have a point about some perversions of Marxism and the killing of millions: as a Marxist, I certainly deny that such killings were necessary, but I am aware that this is a very thin excuse;

* I would support a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy, preferably in the first trimester, but that would be up to her. I don't believe a person is a person until they are a viable human being, say around the end of the second trimester. Not every egg has to be fertilised, and not every fertilised egg becomes a human being, now that the contraceptive pill is so common;

* In your poem, you do seem to be confusing church and state, blurring the boundaries, attributing non sequiturs to secular forces and thereby barking up the wrong tree. This confusion gets us directly into the difficulties that are confronting the reformists in the Middle East, a confrontation which I think will be historic, extremely historic if there is such a phrase.

In fact, I think that the revolutions and uprisings and demonstrations in Middle Eastern and North African countries will come down to a struggle between secularists and Islamist fundamentalists. It is entirely uncertain who will win those struggles which, I believe, are so crucially important for humanity as a whole. Who would you support, Runner, secularists or Islamist fundamentalists ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 17 February 2011 12:37:23 PM
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The moslem religion is all good, but these people are not suited to AU.
Multicultural to me means the mixing of races, These people do not mix with different religions, The moslem will never be multicultural. AU is no place for them.
Posted by a597, Thursday, 17 February 2011 12:37:38 PM
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Climb to the top of the Sydney harbour bridge, look around & you would not be surprised to hear the bloke beside you say that famous quote, "we came, we saw, we conquered".

Unless the average Ozzie wakes up very soon, in 50 years you'll have to speak Arabic to know the bloke beside you, in the same place, is saying the same thing.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 17 February 2011 12:41:02 PM
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Hi a597,

In your statement that "Multicultural to me means the mixing of races, These people do not mix with different religions, The moslem will never be multicultural. AU is no place for them", I'm surprised you didn't chuck language into the mix, in order to produce a thoroughly confused mess.

How's this ?

* 'Multicultural' means the mixing of the cultural practices of people from various parts of the world.

* The mixing of 'races' is usually termed 'multiracial'.

* 'Race' does not necessarily include 'culture'.

* 'Culture' does not necessarily include religion.

* Religion is not necessarily associated with racial groups. All manner of human beings are Muslim: European Bosnians, Chinese Hui and Uighur, many south Indians, Filipinos, Thais, even Aboriginal people. All sorts of people are Christians too: I suspect that there are now more Christians in Africa than in Europe.

You are confusing culture, race and religion. Sorry, 597, but the world is irritatingly complex. So actually I'm glad that you did not add language to the stew.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 17 February 2011 12:48:47 PM
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Loudmouth

You sound more like an agnostic to me than a fundie secularist.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 17 February 2011 1:22:41 PM
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Hi runner,
once again you have me genuinely curious; who do you believe your "God of the Universe, and all life in it" would be more likely to usher through the Gates of Heaven: Mahatma Gandhi, or runner?
By comparison, if a world wide poll were to be taken, who do you think would score more points as a wonderful human being, Mahatma Gandhi, or runner?
Posted by Grim, Thursday, 17 February 2011 1:23:16 PM
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No, Runner, I'm quite sure in my own mind that there are no gods, never have been, never will be. I don't think we need them as a crutch against the unknown any more in the modern world. But if that's your own security blanket ......

I don't understand the 'fundie' part of your 'fundie secularist': to me, by definition, a secularist cannot be a fundamentalist, dogmatic and pig-headed maybe. But maybe I'm too embedded in secularism to know the difference ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 17 February 2011 1:29:37 PM
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Runner you do not sell your phantom nonexistent God well.
Each God we are told is the only one.
And the creator of us all.
There in is the problem.
No God ever existed,we have no need of them , any spokesman for any God is in it for self gain, just as witch doctors had been power and promises are behind the lies.
Sure most of us liked the small victory for the young in Egypt,and hopes I do they win freedom.
And a better life.
Within seconds of the victory the country rang with these words God is great, not from a few mouths but every mouth.
As we get further away from being followers of a God are we ready for thousands of supporters of yet another?
Labor in releasing its new policy needs to understand it is such as me too who in very big numbers do not agree this experiment has failed.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 17 February 2011 2:40:41 PM
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Up Scope.....

Pericles, you neglect an important issue:

Commands given to Theocratic Israel 3000 yrs ago which were promulgated to regulate the social life of the tribal union, are just that... for them..and 'then'.

The primary rules for all time are the Decalogue from the Old Testament.

The New then expands, fulfills the old. We are left with the NT interpretation and limitations on...the Old.

Enter.. Muhammad...... I am the LAST prophet.. the FINAL word.. for all time.. from now.

See it? (The difference)... anything "Allah says" to Muhammad is abiding and applicable from that day until the resurrection.

Doncha love his example ? poking hot iron rods into the eyes of crims he caught.. then.. just for luck..hacking off (or perhaps slowly carving off) their hands and feet.. oops.. still not dead ? aaah.. no problem..we'll just let them die slowly and suffer until they ARE dead...

Nice.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 17 February 2011 3:54:55 PM
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Loudmouth,

The use of the word 'fundamentalist' has been twisted by secularist to mean everything bad. In actual fact the original meaning was one that believed in the fundamentals of the Christian faith (i.e. belief in man's sinful nature, God's goodness, Christ's Resurrection, His virgin birth etc. The fundie secularist have perverted the original meaning to lump believers ( of which one can't be without believing the fundamentals) in the same boat as Islamic terrorist. In actual fact baby killers have far more in common with fundamentalist terrorist than do the salvation army or baptist.

You are right however to define a fundie secularist as pigheaded and dogmatic despite the fact that they claim evidence for their dogmas. A fundie secularist is actually just as faith based as a Christian although they deceitfully say 'science' justifies their lies.

Belly

Your conclusions are totally non sensical.The absence of belief in God leads to more death and misery than you are willing to admit. One day you will have your wish. The salt and light will be taken from the earth and corrupt hearts will be left to destroy each other. Just look at the corruption in the godless people in the party you adore and you will see how sinful the heart of man is.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 17 February 2011 3:58:38 PM
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runner,

Unfortunately the word "fundamentalist" has taken on derogatory implications due to the attitudes and behaviours of those whom identify themselves as such.

Judging by the tone of the comments that you regularly leave in your disparaging wake, it's not surprising.
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 17 February 2011 4:37:34 PM
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Runner,

You say 'You are right however to define a fundie secularist as pigheaded and dogmatic .... '

when I say 'a secularist cannot be a fundamentalist, dogmatic and pig-headed maybe.'

Gosh, you're clever to blur the difference. But I did give you the chance when I wrote '.... maybe I'm too embedded in secularism to know the difference ?'

Or was that too close to the bone ? You didn't want to risk the pot calling the kettle black ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 17 February 2011 4:58:04 PM
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Grim

you ask or state
'once again you have me genuinely curious; who do you believe your "God of the Universe, and all life in it" would be more likely to usher through the Gates of Heaven: Mahatma Gandhi, or runner?'

peoples views are very fickle. The simple fact is that if the apostle Paul who described himself as the worst of sinners gained eternal life by faith in Christ there is hope for me and you. You seem to imply that somehow a man's life makes him worthy of heaven when in actual fact it is only the shed blood of Christ that makes a sinner worthy of entrance to heaven. Whether Gandhi relied on his self righteousness or accepted the grace of God is not something I know or would wish to judge on. I will leave that to the foolish who judge man by man rather than man against Christ.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 17 February 2011 5:11:42 PM
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runner we rarely agree but at least you know I once walked in your shoes.
My Christianity came from mum, and turned into fire mid life.
I have lead a life learning and yearning to learn.
Taken the wrong trail often, communism, true Socialism, and Christianity.
IF NOW this instant! your God sat behind me, told me to repent or else, he would be out my door faster than a seven day bike rider.
See I thought humanity was one, did not understand the hate, the theft, the child rape, the with holding of medical aid from a child so God could fix it.
Put your trust in the Authors of the Bible, humanity, the good and the dreadful in any such book was invented and written by humans.
The fear that comes out here is based on my fears of culture/religion/politics in control of more than half the worlds population.
Without religion this thread would not need to exist for me at least.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 17 February 2011 6:32:31 PM
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Loudmouth You don't read to well i take it. I no what was said, and thats my opinion. Everybody nows we are talking about the hard line moslem. The would be terrorist, the ones impossible to change.
Posted by 579, Thursday, 17 February 2011 6:45:19 PM
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So am I to understand runner, that you believe 'worthiness' (of eternal life) has nothing to do with morality or ethics?
Posted by Grim, Thursday, 17 February 2011 6:52:33 PM
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Belly your presumption that without religion multiculturalism would work is an absolute nonsense. Greed, hate immorality is deep in the heart of man. I observe how both you and Shadow Minister (both atheists or agnostics) go for each other. You are living in a dream world in denying your Maker. The Greens (socialist) are often the most violent in Australia and most of them claim no religion.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 17 February 2011 6:53:58 PM
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Belly. This is not like you:) Poor runner, he's just doing what comes natural, like many others:::::) MC...lol..wait until there's 10 billion people/ 50 MILLION FOR au! and you think you have something to complain about now! lol...thinking green will save you. Now apparently I'VE been elected the new god! well, I never.;0...lol but because we all live in such interesting time , dreams are for free.

See humans just cant stand each other for long periods of time, and the model " the ten rats in a box " will show that of cerntain substance, one can be seen, before the final chime of the clock:) But of all of mans greatest in-sights, he will not see this one coming. Just have fun with my posts, I mean.....If you cant trust your Governments, who can you trust;)

There's a lot of fear spreading all-over the globe, and could some-one tell me why?

Quote from a movie....The people stood at the edge of a broken world, and after all was destroyed, only then could they truely see. That always touched an inner string with me, and yet......the foolish still lead us.

MC wont work, because thats what you want. When humans can evolve in there billions from the start, then and only then, can we end it in our trillions.

Have a great evening.

BLUE



But fat chance that message is going to get through:)
Posted by Deep-Blue, Thursday, 17 February 2011 7:46:48 PM
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Grim you ask

'So am I to understand runner, that you believe 'worthiness' (of eternal life) has nothing to do with morality or ethics?'

No you are wrong Grim. Worthiness has much to do with morality and ethics. The reality is that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Only One who can give sinful man the right standing before His Holy Father. He is and was the only Man with the morality and ethics that was not tainted by a corrupt nature. The thief on the cross did nothing but humble Himself beside the Worthy One who died beside Him. He got a free ticket to paradise. The other thief was full of mocking and self righteousness so missed out. When the Jewish Zealot Saul who was willing to kill for his faith saw the Righteous One he realised how far short of God's grace even a zealot falls. He repented of his self righteousness and realised that it was only His faith in Christ that could save him.
Posted by runner, Friday, 18 February 2011 12:29:27 AM
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Poor Runner must be spending 15 minutes at the end of each day inspecting himself in a full length mirror to examine all the bruises from the 'Runner Bashers' :) man you lot love to whack Runner.

And you pick on me for picking on 'other' things ? come come.

So.. Pericles.. we disagree often.. most of the time... so.. do you "hate" me ?
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 18 February 2011 5:18:53 AM
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Boazy/Pericles/AGiR,I doubt any one here hates you, I find your intractable waffles a bit of a problem, but do not dislike you.
Tell me, runner tells us here the greens are violent? how?
Wrestling over the last bottle of expensive plonk?
Gillard,our temporary leader, Abbott yours,both seem not to want to take on board the concerns of middle Australia.
We are and will even more pay for that.
Last night I watched a TV show , never saw it before gangs of Australia.
Saw our flag being burned , saw guns and knives and saw police butchered in our streets.
My concerns,fears, see me highlighted as xenophobic, racist,red neck, rather uninformed, but in truth my views are shared by most.
Hard to take? maybe but always and forever politicians should listen to the majority or get out of the game.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 18 February 2011 6:25:37 AM
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Certainly not, Boaz.

>>So.. Pericles.. we disagree often.. most of the time... so.. do you "hate" me ?<<

Whatever gave you that idea?

Let me assure you that I have never hated anyone in my entire life - it is an emotion that I have been fortunate enough never to have experienced.

I don't think there is a great deal of it on this forum, either.

Real hatred doesn't need discussion or word-play. It just is.

What I do detect though is an undercurrent of personal mental and emotional discomfort that causes people every so often to express themselves with "fear and loathing". But I usually put that down to a need for self-validation, rather than ascribe it to a form of hatred.

runner is clearly one of those people who needs the reassurance that comes from opposition. Having someone react to your posts is after all a form of recognition, and if you espouse the sort of absolutist view that he does, then he obviously derives a very specific pleasure from his views being vilified. In his eyes, it is a form of reinforcement when those he regards as sinners react to his words in such a predictable manner.

I confess too, that I use your offerings in much the same way, Boaz. You represent a position on oh-so-many issues that is the polar opposite of my own, such that I am goaded to reply simply in order to reassure myself that I still find my own position to be sound and secure.

Similarly, there are posters whose views on global conspiracies or young-earth creationism continually keep me on my toes, mentally speaking. Who knows, one day I might find a grain of truth that needs to be followed up, which without their constant stimulus, I might otherwise have missed.

But hate? Naaaah. Far too much like hard work.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 18 February 2011 7:44:36 AM
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Belly

"Tell me, runner tells us here the greens are violent? how?
Wrestling over the last bottle of expensive plonk?"

At first read, I thought it was you on the plonk, Belly, but then I looked at the time of your post and decided it was a bit early. It then dawned on me that you were referring to the Andrew Bartlett incident. Being a Democrat at the time, this had nothing to do with the Greens.

Yes, I'm interested too to see what Runner's got on these 'violent' Greens! Very little I suspect.

"Last night I watched a TV show , never saw it before gangs of Australia."

I assume this program would have covered bikie gangs and white supremacist gangs. I assume also it was from a reputable source and shown on the ABC or SBS. Otherwise I'd take it with a fair grain of salt if I was you, Belly.

".. saw police butchered in our streets."

Really? 'our' streets, or someone else's?

"Hard to take? maybe but always and forever politicians should listen to the majority or get out of the game."

I doubt very much that a 'majority' of Australians are clamouring for a return to a discriminatory immigration policy. A small vocal minority led on by One Nation maybe, but not the majority.

Belly, you usually have a pretty keen inbuilt BS detector, but it's certainly switched off when it comes to this issue!
Posted by Bronwyn, Friday, 18 February 2011 8:14:08 AM
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Hi 579,

I partly agree with you:

[Translated into standard English] "Loudmouth, You don't read too well, I take it. I know what was said, and that's my opinion. Everybody knows we are talking about the hard-line muslim position."

But it's not just my opinion that one must distinguish between ethnicity, 'race', culture, religion, language, legal rights and lifestyle in order to fix responsibility appropriately.

As for hard-line Islam: as an atheist outsider, I'm confident that there is a very wide spectrum of ideological positions amongst the Muslim population, as there would be in the Christian and Jewish populations. I'm also aware of the Muslim principle of Tekki'ah, of the legitimacy of lying in a good cause: coming from the Left, I've seen plenty of that. Probably even Christians have something similar.

I'm sure that most Muslims wear their Islam comparatively lightly, observing prayer five times a day, fasting over Ramadan, giving alms, aspiring to go to Mecca sooner or later.

But as with other religions, there is certainly a much more hard-line wing and more devout, more literal in their grasp of the koran. One could say, more 'evangelical', if one includes the duty to exterminate non-believers or those who refuse to be converted (as, I suppose, I would be) in order to bring about a world perfectly in accord with Shari'a and the word of Allah.

So the 92 % of Egyptian Muslims who support the stoning of women for adultery give me pause in my enthusiasm for their 'revolution'.

Multiculturalism certainly has limits: in my view, it does not include the right of any group to be intolerant towards any other group or to plot and carry out violent acts - but it also must include, in a democratic country like Australia aspires to be - the full recognition and protection of the rights of all citizens, the equality of women especially, and the active promotion of those rights.

On all these counts, Muslim fundamentalism fails and therefore, in my view, it has no place in Australian society, now or ever.

Jo
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 18 February 2011 10:19:04 AM
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Bronwyn, Gday, you have strong opinions,some maybe most I share.
But may this dyslexic old bloke ask that you read the posts, all of them between your last and next.
If we are going to comment surly it should be after doing that at least.
While runner is a target,[he wants to be] that way,an old gentleman said greens are violent here in print Philo.
I found that funny, strange,bizarre comparing them to this subject.
Read in to days Australian a very good reminder of my side of this debate.
Read in the ABC online page a reminder if Keatings words, look again at Howard's but UNDERSTAND those words on this subject, won him elections.
Read Rudd's comments too.
I am impressed with the 9 year old at last being set free to live with his cousins, not bad for a racist red neck.
Bronwyn my best interests are in an ALP government, but I want the voices in the negative to be heard, Labor trys to be the party of middle Australia, but ignores I live in that territory and so do massive amounts of us, and our opinions are not seen in the NEW ALP Policy's on this matter mix yes a positive but tell those fathers who flog children and wives in to agreement with them..
Posted by Belly, Friday, 18 February 2011 12:09:44 PM
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Hi Pericles.. that was a very nice and candid post.

The reason I asked if you "hate" me was because you tend to ascribe that emotion to 'me' in regard to other people.. your choice of words might need a bit of a polish.. as you also said "fear and LOATHING" is something you attribute to me from time to time.. but 'loathing' is a much stronger word than 'hate' to my mind.

So.. (now to the point :) If you don't 'hate' me for what I say, why do you project 'loathing' to me in regard to other people with whom I disagree.. (the Islamic thing)

If I attack a belief system, you tend to say "you fear and loathe" them.. or that I'm stirring up 'fear and loathing'...

My defense of course is that the issues I pick are very well substantiated in fact, but we disagree on that also. I would love to have you as my prosecutor in VCAT or somewhere :) because in that environment you and the judge would be forced to follow the 'Law' and use the principles of intepretation which are recognized world wide in regard to documents.

I would be supremely confident that I could successfully argue each of the points I've raised in the past, and that such argument would be accepted as valid. Of course.. knowing how VCAT works, that might not be sufficient to free me from 'religious vilification' charges, as Debbie Mortimer SC so eloquently said "Truth... is not a defense"

AND.. of course... seeing that in print was one of the major factors in triggering my 'crusade' against the RRT and progressives generally.
I am intending (in the process of) to cost various 'entities' large sums of money in defending actions based on that law.
Fortunately, the coalition has assured me they will replace the Commissioner of the HREOC with a truly 'independant' :) person.
So..it will be win some or lose some.. see how it goes.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 18 February 2011 6:46:00 PM
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Bronwyn I was referring to that particular wine the left is known to drink, in the back of those combi vans on the way to demonstrations.
We ran out of puff, thought we would,not thoughts not ideas not concerns,but puff yes.
Bet nearly every poster wanted to say more.
To tell more about real life events.
We,even those who oppose it the most, are fenced in by PC,and respect for OLO/GY no doubt at all both could be damaged if we said it like some of us think.
I am not drifting away from LABOR never, current leadership is moving away from a reality it must learn, we are not happy with some things they do.
I am in average health hope maybe I will get another ten years but would love to see the day,it will come,when the people all over the world, hold todays PC owners who blindly say we who see differences and things to be aware of are wrong.
Humanity's wish to live together in peace while good can not come about by one side being both blind and stupid.
WHY do we teach evolution then chant mindlessly about the right to religious freedom?, a freedom that demands death?
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 19 February 2011 5:17:05 AM
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Hi Belly,

When you write: "WHY do we teach evolution then chant mindlessly about the right to religious freedom?, a freedom that demands death?" you are touching on a basic right in a democratic society, the right of freedom of speech, freedom of expression. I don't know so much about the 'mindlessly' bit, but you open up an interesting line of discussion when you mention "religious freedom .... a freedom that demands death".

I am presuming that you would differentiate between the 'religious' freedom for anybody to promote their beliefs, propagandise, knock on people's doors, run radio programs, etc., and the bogus 'freedom' to incite violence and hatred against unbelievers ? i.e. to go beyond the legitimate limits of free speech ?

This raises the old problem for miulticulturalists and relativists: should we tolerate the intolerant ? Should we allow freedom of speech to those who use it but who would abolish it at the first opportunity, or so it may seem on past experience ?

In my view, of course objectionable views must be allowed, provided they do not drift over into incitement to violence, abridgement of others' rights, or contempt. Freedom of speech must extend to offensive remarks, but offense cannot be allowed to flow over to incitement.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 19 February 2011 9:29:18 AM
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"Whatever it takes" Said Graham Richardson.

After not raising this issue for 4 years, my thoughts are that Labor is now pushing this to get an improved 'ethnic vote' for labor at the coming NSW state election.

I am a cynic, but do not be surprized if little is heard again after the election. Politicians have no principles.
Posted by Banjo, Saturday, 19 February 2011 9:36:15 AM
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Pericles you state

'runner is clearly one of those people who needs the reassurance that comes from opposition. Having someone react to your posts is after all a form of recognition, and if you espouse the sort of absolutist view that he does, then he obviously derives a very specific pleasure from his views being vilified. In his eyes, it is a form of reinforcement when those he regards as sinners react to his words in such a predictable manner.

Your statement might hold some merit until your last sentence. All are born into sin and all exhibit it in difference ways. The fact that some are vitriolic, mocking and hate God more than others is a immaterial. It is amazing how much hate is vented against the One who the mockers claim don't exist. There is nothing new under the sun.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 19 February 2011 10:26:12 AM
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Joe you could be right but.
In truth I do not want to remove religions freedoms, but I want it to stop intruding on my life.
I have seen great changes and freedoms come as we grow away from,what I see,as control by religions, Sunday shopping even Saturday.
We however know the bigotry of every religion if you look for it.
As the west moves slowly but surely away from religion Islamic belief grows.
Post above claims Labor is farming for that vote,what? 2% in total while driving 20 times that much of their own vote away? reality Labor has all ready been smashed in the up coming election.
Now we do teach evolution, I truly think it is the truth.
BUT a few,not just Muslim,creeds teach nothing like it,some thoughts I need not quote here,tell us we are second class not quite people,is there ANY ROOM to ask why?
If I an entrenched not believer, can walk past a church without condemning those inside,why can some call me Infidel in my country?
For every Labor MP who calls on me to be nice another knows and understands this issue see,s lost votes for Labor in far bigger numbers than we win.
Get out in the streets Julia, ask the real people who support the party you think you own, let them speak.
Better still if you want to be a green join them.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 19 February 2011 10:32:06 AM
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Athiests don't hate "god".

Religious "scripture" simply highlights why we should, and you should, were such a thing to be real.

What does concern us is that a substantial though minor fraction of our population act and vote as if the religious delusion were real.

Sooner or later, such must either be demoted to roles of no responsibility, and their views discounted, or held to account for those views.

For instance, the hiring and counselling practises of major religions do not prevent but protect (as a tax-exempt expense) from due process child molesters. The presumption that churches should not be subject to intrusive scutiny is bogus, protecting policies and dogma that is ludicrous by any normal standard.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Saturday, 19 February 2011 11:20:06 AM
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Rusty,

Yes, how on earth can you hate what doesn't exist ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 19 February 2011 11:26:20 AM
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I would suggest this concept of Atheists 'hating' God comes from some confusion about the word 'depict'; or confusing depiction with reality.
Many from the atheist camp have pointed out that the God of the Old Testament is a bit of a bastard; that is, he is 'depicted' by the authors of the OT as a bit of a bastard: Flooding the world and only sparing one family, destroying cities, sending bears to tear up children... No wonder Christians had to come up with a triune God.
Do I -as a de facto atheist- hate God? Of course not. Like Pericles, I have never 'hated' anyone, to the best of my recollection. I do however hate the way the concept of god has been used by the faithful to justify any number of violent and 'evil' acts.
I would be happy if all immigrants to our shores would swear to uphold just one law, above all else, including and especially any others laws imposed upon them by their cult, religion or creed.
"Do Unto Others..."
Posted by Grim, Saturday, 19 February 2011 12:22:52 PM
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belly,
Trying to lock up the 'ethnic vote' has been done before and is not so silly.

One in 4 of our population now has been born overseas or has a parent that was. In some Sydney electorates, where most of the populastion are, the proportion of ethnics is much higher, so if polys can capitalize on that, they will.

I'd think that, over all, you are right in that it will cost them votes, but that does not mean in every electorate, and remember it is the number of seats won that counts.

It seems labor is desperately trying to reduce the number of seats lost.
Posted by Banjo, Saturday, 19 February 2011 12:42:32 PM
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Banjo please, believe me,Labor has used the ethnic vote to win seats, it may retain the one around Lakemba, it has been a safe seat and has far more than 2% of Muslims.
BUT so TOO has the conservatives.
I want to clearly say this, yet again, those workers I quote who are disturbed about some migration are from every country in the world.
NO SINGLE ETHNIC VOTE ever existed.
If this subject can not stand on its intended path, if it must be focused on every ethnic /migrant I regret my in put.
From a generally agreed to concern it would be very marginal and have very minor followers if it is aimed at migration.
The first post includes a lot of our world,while some may wish to hide behind the cowards cloak it is well known by most what bought about those comments.
Labor may have less seats than you think, but greens are in for a wind fall.. strange actually,they are never going to share most views in this subject,stand by for more PC forced down our throats until we remind those with the spoon it is some thing we will eat no more of.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 19 February 2011 4:15:41 PM
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Once again we have stalled I would like to say two things before we go under.
The current internal trouble within the Liberal party, and Labors attempt to use it is ignorance.
As I said up the thread people from both side in about equal numbers hold the same concerns.
It was/is politicians,world wide who inflicted a problem on us, tried to blame us[as racists or xenophobes]for its failures.
Second point,hard to get people to see, it is not race, not in any way, that drives this fear.
I loved the small victory in Egypt,hurt for the dead in those middle east country's.
Make it three,e mailthis morning, sent itto the rubbish binpurely racist.
But it reminded me of this, aman reading one Holly book, has the right to wed a 1 year old girl consumate the wedding at age nine and that ends my contributions here, PC is haunting me and in time will get me.
I do not fear people, I fear attitudes, separatism based on our own freedom to be us, on a view by some we are unclean/,.
I know, open your eyes you too will, we are headed for a nightmare, and those like me who warn of it are considered lessor humans for warning of middle ages type intrusions in to my life in my country.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 20 February 2011 4:46:28 AM
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