The Muslims make no secret of the fact that they would like a muslim state worldwide.

They really mean muslim as in muslim progeny. Religion is just the propaganda they use to declare their victims evil,(infidel- the devil), so they can justify what they do, to themselves and the world.

How convenient to be able to kill the infidel and take control of their countries all for a holy cause. Only the real motivation for most of what mankind does is for self gain and there is nothing the least holy about it.

I say to the Jihadists stop deluding yourselves that what you are doing is for a holy cause and face the truth about your true motivation. At least then you'll be honest.

Dear BELLY and CELIVIA

Belly first.. mate.. you can vent your spleen with total freedom to me personally.. either on the web sites or to an email jjjdrmot@yahoo.com.au
I won't mind old son.. truly.. I welcome the oppostunity to engage on such issues. So please do. I don't want you to have pent up feelings.

CELIIVA.. you made a very good point. Which was 'Cherry Picked' verses from holy books CAN... be very damaging IF they are turned into pretexts etc.. taken out of context, added to others which create a false impression.

By all means email me, create a temporary one for you if you wish.. for the puposes of debate.. maybe yahoo or something ? I truly do need to engage at a deeper level on those verses you chose.

Having said that. I have no argument with the ones you chose such as 'man is the Glory of Christ, woman is the glory of man' I have to take that on the chin, and seek to give it my best shot at persuading you its not as bad as it looks. But it DOES look very hurtful if you see it in 'value-judgement' terms.

Here is a comment from a Muslim on metacafe about a video on "When Muslims ruled Europe"

KREAL187 3weeks ago
"We will gain Spain, Portugal and France back when Allah wills. Until then we are continuing to develop our culture and our society. Our intellectual movements never died."

Note the key words "Until then" .. and see what follows, where it describes AUSTRALIAn Muslims now.

MEREDITH Welcome back :) I'm checking the info u provided mate.
see http://www.10-teams.wikispaces.com.au

If according to the bible, man is the prototype and woman the copy,then why do men have nipples

Hey Boaz,

I looked on the link, it didn't work, but the protest calipahte site did ... It's great!

Here it is also on another site, along with more info on HUT meetings at Bankstown!
http://worldwar111.blogspot.com/2007/01/protest-against-hizb-ut-tahrir-in.html

This information needs to be spread far n wide... Aussies need to knwo what HUT is.

Isn't it great to see such a potentially volatile conversation topic being discussed with rare sense.

David I truly respect the concerns you have brought forward and on the other hand find the thoughts of some others quite frustrating: of course a majority of muslims in Australia are capable of being "decent" members of our society, but to simply ignore the minority would be foolish, no?

The difference between certain "outdated" excerpts from both "books" is the way in which the differently cultured people exercise their interpretatios of such. As societies progress and "civilise" these interpretations must be flexible to accommodate this. These texts are not written by gods but by men of the times. Surely for one of faith to follow such to the letter would be, well, insane? However history clearly shows the contrasting development with which both religions are carried out by their participants.

Having said all this, I do hope David and Co. continue to exercise tact and to make decisions based on constructive thought rather than pure emotion. I always consider perspective to be a critical tool, and so must one realise that (as a generalisation) many muslims here do tend not to be able to exercise such. So any action on your behalf, regardless of the thoughtful process, can easily be used by the minority extremist elements to intice the impressionable into exercising the very elements which one is trying to discourage.

Meliorator...I so appreciate your post.. you are 100% correct.. on every point, including the warnings.
I respond to your note of caution as follows. No matter what we do, no matter how benign or well thought out, it will be seen by, or even attempted to be used by others with differing agendas.
Even the concept of '10-teams'.
MEREDITH.. try this one mate http://10-teams.wikispaces.com/

As with any movement, the character and personality, objectives and goals are determined by the originator. These in turn, can be reshaped and even overturned by subsequent people serving the group.
This the sad side of life.
But if we allowed this to deter us from doing what we believe in our hearts should be done...then 'nothing' would be done..

The principles and objectives of 10-teams are outlined on the web site. They are specifically tailored to avoid the usual pitfalls of any social movement. "(Race based, color based, jingoistic etc)
At the same time, they recognize a specific threat, with specific real evidence on the religious and ethnic levels.

here is a little exercise..goto youtube and type in 'placename boys'
where placename is any town in Australia, but use just known sydney and melbourne ones, and see what comes up. Not many will give a result, but try 'placename lebs' and see.

Granville
Punchbowl
Auburn

Try this one.. see the symbolism, flags claiming beach territory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlDztjPzvSM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILNnkIQXB8c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZiwSUsr9jM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHURe9E8uq4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm8XY01Er_E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymmm76isFqc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM1eig_mKSA&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0SR8AfERlM "Lebs smash aussies"

The point I'm making here, is that this one group is claiming to 'rule' and that is outright racism of the worst kind. Cronulla was just a reaction to all this and their weekend exploits to pick fights.