Saturday 27th of JANUARY, the day after Australia day, will see a seminar run by Hizb Ut Tahrir in Bankstown Town Hall, exploring the idea of acheiving a world wide Caliphate, which of course includes Australia.

There is a news item on "Islamic Sydney" with no negative storyline here http://islamicsydney.com/story.php?id=2996

The question is, should we just sit idly by and do nothing while these people seek to white ant our freedom ?
ARE they.....seeking to do that ? Or is this just another simple expression of non threatening ideas in a religious freedom context ?

In one of their PDF documents from the web site http://www.risala.org I found the words "Winning hearts and minds and by Jihad".

I suggest that if it can be shown that "Jihad" is in reality Military aggression, due to its use in connection with Mohammeds raids and invasions, then there is a case for them to be classified as 'seditious'.
I seek to prove this allegation in this site. http://www.truetruth.wikispaces.com

I would be interested in other readers views on this matter and what measures if any we should take up to oppose them ? or to just let them be ? Will doing 'nothing' discourage them or would be jihadists in the Muslim community from reinventing themselves in a more 'combative' style ? Or..would opposing them actually self fulfil the worry ?

You need to stop focusing on the 'us' and 'them' distinction, boaz. Relax, take a deep breath, look again....oh, they're just people, like me! Essentially all the same, well I'll be!

I bet you ten bucks there wont be any 'combative'-ing going on.

For future reference, 'jihad' most directly translates to 'freedom fight'. Interesting to note you consider 'them' directly opposed to freedom, when the reality is quite different. Have a go at viewing things from beyond your own narrow perspective.

Hi Big Spender.. happy new year, welcome back and all that....

Well, I just read in the Age that their permit has now been cancelled.

Spendo, regarding your point about Jihad.. I have to respectfully disagree... freedom fight ? Not how it is used in the Islamic documents mate... but apart from that particular word.... which in context really should mean 'military struggle' because it is juxtaposed with 'hearts and minds' to mean something different..

Did you read my link to truetruth ? I explain it there.

Regarding 'them' and 'us'... little hope of me fading on that score bro... The thing you need to work out though is how narrow or wide the 'them' is in my mind. I've said it a fair bit but...Its not a matter of individual niceness or lack thereof, its the total collective actions and influence of a community in a political context.

If you wonder how it could be when Muslims dominance is a reality, where they populate the police and institutions (as they did in Malaysia) where you know..u just KNOW that no matter how much you cry out about some religious based injustice, somewhere up the heirachy, close to and including the top, you will be confronted with.... a ... you know who.
See this mate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiu26Mo_UBo

Life as a Christian can be quite a challenge under Muslim rule. I've lived it.

BD,

Thanks for putting that up. We – the few of us who are not naïve about the true aims of Islam – remain unsurprised. Hopefully, those who think that Islam is just another religion will take note and start thinking and boning up on the real Islam.

The Islamists will, of course, say that it is just an academic talkfest, and we don’t really understand. Yeah, just like other religions discuss ways of gaining world supremacy!

Muslims are pledged to rid the world of all creeds but Islam.

Drongos like Australians and other European-type people have facilitated their intent by inviting them to the West. What a bonus for them! I’ll bet they can’t yet believe their luck.

Democracy and our way of life is a wonderful thing to be protected and cherished. We – i.e. Australian politicians – have neither protected nor cherished it; hence, we now may have to think of making temporary adjustments to deal once and for all with the threat of Islam to the West.

Or, perhaps the solution can be found in the anti-terror laws that our left-wing friends also deem unecessary to protect us from the "nice" newcomers? I would think that discussing a world caliphate here would be classed as sedition.

Yawn.

Spendocrat,

Actually you got the Jihad definition wrong:
There are two types of Jihad -an internal struggle to keep Islamic morality etc -which it is now popular to say is the most important & difficult.
The other Jihad is to wage war for Islam -its no fiction -its no fabrication -its core Islamic creed.

And as for broadening horizons:
I suggest you might like to spend time living in a Christian enclave in Indonesia, Pakistan or Egypt
(if you come away intact ) It might broaden your horizons too.

CJ Morgan has made an early bid for "Inconsequential Poster 2007"

My money is on him. He has done very well in the past.

Thanx guys.

Could some of us explore the possible ways of responding to such things ?
I initiated a protest, wrote to 160 churches and surf clubs on this issue, and received a request for more info from a major media columnist.

I was suggesting that people attend this seminar in small self contained groups of 10, with a team leader, where they know exactly why they are there, and would be self governing and self managing, with their own signs etc. I did a web site about it, and linked that to other web sites with more info.

In order to avoid any further Cronulla's and the mentality which prevailed there, and its vulnerability to hijacking, small groups (but many of them) is the approach to take in regard to making our voices heard.

This way, if there is a moron element, it would not effect large numbers.

I have not the slightest idea of how successful this would have been (if the event actually went ahead, having now had their permit cancelled) but I DO believe with all my heart that we need to consider ways of countering such radical ideology growing like a cancer among us.
Such a demo would be a 'no' and a 'yes' type. No to Sharia Law (from non Christians) and 'yes' to true freedom in Christ from Christians.

The thing I find most difficult, is women from among our side of things (non Muslim) coming into this insidious prison of their own fee will. The pathway seems to be:

1/ Disillusionment with nominal Christianity (can't understand 'the trinity')+ frustration with social attitudes.
2/ A longing for some deeper truth about life and meaning.

This leads them to 'persue studies about Islam' where they inevitably only are given the 'sugar coated' version, such as with Scientology
next thing you know they are in a Burqah telling us how free they are.

If any female reads this, please refer to this, to see what Hizb regards as 'freedom' in marraige.
http://www.risala.org/books/11.Systems-Social-new.pdf

-Obedience andTaking permission from her husband.
-Children are HIS Children
-Wealth is HIS_wealth

Update on Hizb ut-Tahrir Sydney Khilafah conference...
These are the additional media articles about the planned Hizb ut-Tahrir conference on 27 January 2007.
The group booked the Bankstown Town Hall under a pseudonym!

This posting includes all the media articles following Barney Zwartz's initial article yesterday...

But first - what are some Muslims saying about the conference?
Check out Forum Muslim Village... they are discussing the conference...
See http://forums.muslimvillage.net/

Then topics like 'Muslims in the News...
at http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showforum=52
and then click on the article 'Extremist Muslims call to arms" at http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showtopic=30277

One contributor, 'Othman' who says he is a member of Hizb ut-Tahrir said earlier (Dec 2006) on a thread,
"The Khilafah is fard. If the Muslims don't implement a fard, they are not implementing Islam in its entirety. Its that simple. Nothing to do with safety."
On this page is a lengthy discussion about the meaning of the Khilafah!
See http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showtopic=13165&st=480&p=469896&#entry469896

Fard? fard (also farida) is an Islamic Arabic term denoting – “a religious duty”

Muslim Village also post the following interesting document:

“The Methodology of Hizb ut-Tahir for Change”

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=6675


___________________________________


Posted from * sourse by Philo

I trust that the Hizb UT Tahrir conference has been cancelled. All the Islamic countries are so backward and introverted that they are unable to handle any of their problems. Their social problems are legendary with their treatment of women and homosexuals falling rather short of anything acceptable in western countries. Any religion that forces its women to live under black sheets and encourages its members to recite the Koran in Arabic has no place in any modern society. They try and convert Christians to their faith while threatening death to a Moslem who converts to Christianity. I think in some Islamic circles you can get your ticket to the so-called “paradise” by knocking off a backslider.

To Philo and Sille

at this stage it has not been 'cancelled' the only thing which has happened is the venue is cancelled.
Lets keep in mind, they have 'international speakers' coming, (wonder who is funding that ?) so.. a strong likelihood is that they will
a) Successfully challenge the decision or..
b) Re-Locate.

I invite all of you to look here http://www.caliphateprotest.wikispaces.com
which I compiled a day or 2 ago and then wrote to about 160 churches and surf lifesaving clubs calling on them to form small groups of 10 and come along and either hold up a secular protest sign or a Christian one.
I have the support of one major media identity from a national paper thus far.
Have also written to others.

Philo..why not start gathering some people.. up to 10 or in groups of 10 (legal reasons for that number- 11+ can be 'riot'if violence occurs) and come up with a sign or 2 ? :) "Jesus Lives" or something.
I want to form a standby team of about that size anyway for future things.

The key to success is 'small, self contained, self governed tightly disciplined groups' rather than "unruly alchohol fueled mobs"

By all means check this out too http://www.truetruth.wikispaces.com
(The path to violent Jihad)

Spendocrat;
Your assumption that they are "Just like us" is incorrect.
They do not think like us at all.

I asked that indirect relative of mine, who was imprisoned for eight
years as a hostage by Saddam why they would load a van with explosives
call over poor workers looking for work and then blow them all up.

His answer; "They don't think like us at all. To them that is a normal
thing to do. There is no right and wrong as we know it."
Now he spent eight years in Iraq in prison and spent his time teaching
English and about the outside world, so he knows what he is talking about.

I havn't read much about Islam and I don't intend to as I think there
are more important things to do but I have seen enough to realise that
there is a problem, a very significant problem.

AS they do not think like us there is not much room for compromise as
compromise needs a meeting of minds and the two minds operate with
different operating systems. eg Linux and Microsoft Windows.

Bazz - what on earth made you include me in your concept of 'us'. I dont consider myself to be anything like you, aside from the obvious fact that we are both humans and share 99.99% of exactly the same genetics.

The fact is, there is more variation *within* any given culture, race or religion than there is between any of them. We have a powerful instinct that dates back to tribal times, to 'choose a side' (almost invariably that which is the most familiar to us) and as a result can believe whatever we want to justify the belief that we're the goodies and they're the baddies. Don't think 'they' see you any differently to how you see them.

If I'm wrong may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow.

Bazz,

Right. I also believe that there is no point in reading more about Islam, just as there is no point in a non-Muslim trying to engage in discussion with a Muslim. Fellow Human and Irfan Yusuf are examples known to all on OLO. They are in a constant state of denial, and very often don't seem to know as much about their own religion as we inifidels do; that, or they are brazen liars.

Thanks to our pathetic politicians, we do have, as you say, a huge problem which can only escalate as the lack of polticial will and cowardice in Australia facilitates the gradual but increasing confidence of Muslims in their ability to eventually gain what they want here and in other western countries they have been allowed to enter.

The time for sitting idle while these jihadists white ant our way of life has come to an end.
This country needs a leader with the intestinal fortitude to carry out what is glaringly obvious. ie An immediate halt to immigration from islamic countries and those without the necessary skills to not be a burdon on our resources and the repatriation of those already here. I dont know who but there must be a leader out there who can unite the logical among us to rise up and say no to this BS.

Who do these freaks think they are? They live under the protection we provide while at the same time trying to enslave us to thier ridiculous religion.

I support John Howard but just can not understand why he is allowing this to happen, these bozos with thier Caliphate party should be rounded up and sent back to where they originate from or at least be incarcerated forever lest they infect more with thier hate.

scotty: "Who do these freaks think they are? They live under the protection we provide while at the same time trying to enslave us to thier ridiculous religion. "

You mean people like Tony Abbott, for example?

Or the Exclusive Brethren... or Arse on... er Catch the Fire Ministries - or even the Hillsong happyclappers?

They should all be able to preach whatever they like to whoever is silly enough to listen to them, as long as it doesn't involve incitement to violence or sedition. In my view a Caliphate is only more appalling by a matter of degree from the kind of Christian theocracy that Western democracies seem to be edging towards.

Scotty,

I have supported John Howard for 10 years, but he as really had his day. I empathise with you.

CJ Morgan,

Do you have a problem with substance abuse, or are you just a renegade who cannot help vilifying his own kind?

Please let me know if I can be of any assistance to you.

Establishing a new Caliphate is nothing new to Islam, but what is new is the Leftist tactical and attempt at mastering the Art of Dialectics and Islam, and made a real mangled mess of it I must say.

One of the greatest frauds in modern day times is this Ideal Useless idiots are great and everyone else is bourgeois scumb. Infidels and Dissidence are common fable amongst Useless Idiots.

Here is a report card from Da'wah Bil Hal Conference
30-31 March 1997
Sydney, Australia ; Thanks to Gravelrash from another place.

http://www.ifew.com/insight/v12i01/dbh.html

You see, it is just a different date; the same crime , same bat channel , same Useless Idiots , same intent;
And it is NO SECRET ; So what part do people not understand?

All mate...I read that report card... what I find intersting is these 2 statements.

Under 'Suggestions for the future" there is:

-"Push diversity rather than homogeneity"

Then further down (this is the funny bit)under the heading
Threats and challenges withIN the community is:

-"Racial discrimination within community"

Well all I can say is THANX to them for doing my work, i.e. proving that prpomoting diversity results in RACIAL DISCRIMINATION as is their experience. duh.

I hope you guys will all visit the protest site, and if possible click on the 'discussion'tab and leave a little comment :)
Cheers all

http://www.caliphateprotest.wikispaces.com

I will not relax, I will not wait for the contemptable anti Australian element in this group to understand they insult both us and honest fair minded Muslims.
I shall not stop waiting for such as Trad to stop useing lies as a defence of idiotic bigoted anti Australian statments.
But I long ago weareid of claims to have real concerns makes me racist to some who denie me the right to free speach and thought.

Leigh, the people and groups that I referred to are no more my "kind" than are Osama bin Laden, the Taliban or Hizb Ut Tahrir (or you, for that matter).

"Do you have a problem with substance abuse... Please let me know if I can be of any assistance to you."

Why? What have you got on offer?

Hi Belly I see your passion mate.... have you had a look at the caliphate protest web site yet mate ?

That is the result of me feeling the same as you, but taking it one step further and doing something concrete about it, something all of us can share in and participate in..even CJ :)

In the light of our brilliant pet Sheikhs reported comments:
"Anglo Saxons are the biggest liars in the world"
"Muslims have more right to be in Australia than decendants of convicts"
"The courts were racist in the sentences of Bilal Skaff" etc

Wouldnt you all like some means of expressing your feelings also ?
For future reference, you can form a 10-TEAM, a group of likeminded individuals who can occassionaly get together to discuss such issues, and forumate lawful methods of challenging them.
I have a vision of large numbers of 10-Teams around Australia, who can be activated at short notice to provide a different voice to such as above at strategic locations and events such as this Kalipha seminar.

They would have a common set of principles on which they are based.

The number 10, is 1 less than what can be considered 'riot' if problems occur and is also 2 full car loads.

I recall from the old Testament, they had 'commanders of 10s, of 100s and of 1000s' and Gengis Khan also had this strategy. Each village had a responsibility to contribute x number of people.

10-TEAM-MAX will have extra skilling, and be available for more advanced roles such as security.

Well, just an idea :)

Hi Boaz_David,

In fairness to the Khilafah conference link you posted at the beginning, the flier did refer to political change throughout the “Muslim” world. Is Australia classified as part of the Muslim world? Even so, I wonder what kind of political change they propose, because as long as Muslims adhere to some of the draconian texts in the Koran they are likely to get an equally draconian political system. Sure Western society is over run by drug taking, pot smoking, thieving, vandalising, belligerent and debauched dopes, but I would rather have separation of religion and state any day. I came across an interesting annotated version of the Koran (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/ ) that highlights some of its inconsistencies and absurdities. A couple that bemused me: 2:256 “there is no compulsion in religion” and 2:282 "And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women.".

Rob... you hit the nail exactly on the head mate !

1/ What kind of political change...
2/ Among the Muslim world.....

The best place understand that, is from those they most often refer to, i.e. Quran, Hadith and Biographies of Mohammed.

I've summarized quite a bit of where this would lead.. given that Islam is as much POLITICAL as it is religous, its a package deal.
The major problem I find is that as Muslim communities become 'States' (as they did in Medina) it is unavoidable that neighbouring entities will them as a threat.
This occurred right from day one. The surrounding tribes at first.. Mohammeds own tribe the Quraysh, and then the Jewish tribes, and then the Arab Christian tribes all intimidated or invaded and brought into the "Islamic" Caliphate. The bigger it becomes, the more of a threat it is, and hence, those on the border will take measures to ensure their security.
This then leads to Mohammed (or his modern day flunkies) 'gaining intelligence' of plans to confront them, and them attacking first.
I outline most of this here http://www.truetruth.wikispaces.com

That site links to this one http://www.islamundressed.com which is extremely well documented also.

The 'Only in the Muslim world' is a clever ploy to distract from the truth.
Have a look at this while your surfing.. its quite chilling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm8XY01Er_E It happened in Melbourne.

RANIER.. r u there mate ? have a look too please.

http://democracyfrontline.org/news/?p=387

This is Hut's April meeting, so glad Bankstown gave them the boot, they are truely vile. read the poster printed in the link... also download the recording of the meeting.

Boaz David I did look at the site and will look many times at it again.
As my past posts tell I am commited to justice [my view of it] in the workplace and must not in any way damage that.
However I must go on record with a true concern how can any goverment, yes the team I follow too, not understand this is so wrong?
Should I be tempted to speak as I wished here the post would be deleated, yet it would be the way Australia thinks!
Fact is this insulting event damaged my country 100 times more than Cronulla!
Denie it? you just can not!

And here is a web address entry to listen to an interview with Daniel Scott; 3 Mb: Mp3. http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/religious_vilification_laws_in_conservative_australia/

For Those who only wish to gain the truth of events ; Those that wish to maintain their usual biggoted ignorance or just don’t care; Good luck. You will need it.
If those who think it is trendy to remove TRUT from justice and substitute it with some ridicules notion of Proletariat propaganda.
Take another dose or change your medication the effects are wearing off ; Fairdinkum.

BD,
About your websites about the Koran.
Even though it is true that these quotes from the Koran are ridiculous and alarming, I am sure that there are quotes from the Bible that are similar than those from the Koran.

There's sexism and violence in the bible as well. For example:

““Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21”

“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.”

“They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men.” Matthew 15:4-7” (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.” (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.” Exodus 21:7-11 NLT

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. “Corinthians 11:3 *

Corinthians 11:7 – 9:
“For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. “

“For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. “

“Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.”

I thank God that I'm an atheist.

Self confedence! a good thing but how often is it missplaced?
Bigoted?that poster and the few who constantly overlook the very nature of Australia need to start again.
Much less ofensive things like the popes speach lead to riot and open calls to behead Christians!
I question those who think this thread is bigoted and wonder at the ill advised posts that question our right of free speach.
And wonder that anyone could beleave Muslims who want to live amung us are not as much victims as we are of shamefull bigotted handfull of people who should not be in this country another day.

You may have pointed out some inconsistencies in entries in the Book, as it is only a compilation of history over a long period of time, as the book states clearly; it is not inconceivable that like our times, they had people with other intentions than being sincere,
As we do now days.
It is poignant to note, there were a lot of exclusion from the book, based on the principled unethical intention to deprive people of the truth. And perhaps it would not be too inconceivable that intentional passages were entered to give the same effect that is outlined in detail in the Qur’an; but obviously a few thousand years before.

It took me about 9 hours after reading the Qur’an and parts of Surah – hadiths etc, I gave up- It is an insult to anyone who can construed anything but conclude the whole Cult was constructed by psychopathic inflicted inferiority complexion .
I do not state this with humor intended, but some passages sounded more like a Monty python sketch than from some divine Prophet.
There is no point in accepting people are insulted by that, it is written and is bold and is direct.
I would not tell you the answer I received from an Iranian friend , but must conclude that intelligence is at an all time low if a consceous thinking person could not peace together what it was you were reading. And it has nothing to do with divinity or a God

You do not need to be a rocket scientist to find that out. A reasonable ability to analyze and compare , or at the very least read as much as you can stomach- because it is not what they are telling any of us; it far from it.

The Muslims make no secret of the fact that they would like a muslim state worldwide.

They really mean muslim as in muslim progeny. Religion is just the propaganda they use to declare their victims evil,(infidel- the devil), so they can justify what they do, to themselves and the world.

How convenient to be able to kill the infidel and take control of their countries all for a holy cause. Only the real motivation for most of what mankind does is for self gain and there is nothing the least holy about it.

I say to the Jihadists stop deluding yourselves that what you are doing is for a holy cause and face the truth about your true motivation. At least then you'll be honest.

Dear BELLY and CELIVIA

Belly first.. mate.. you can vent your spleen with total freedom to me personally.. either on the web sites or to an email jjjdrmot@yahoo.com.au
I won't mind old son.. truly.. I welcome the oppostunity to engage on such issues. So please do. I don't want you to have pent up feelings.

CELIIVA.. you made a very good point. Which was 'Cherry Picked' verses from holy books CAN... be very damaging IF they are turned into pretexts etc.. taken out of context, added to others which create a false impression.

By all means email me, create a temporary one for you if you wish.. for the puposes of debate.. maybe yahoo or something ? I truly do need to engage at a deeper level on those verses you chose.

Having said that. I have no argument with the ones you chose such as 'man is the Glory of Christ, woman is the glory of man' I have to take that on the chin, and seek to give it my best shot at persuading you its not as bad as it looks. But it DOES look very hurtful if you see it in 'value-judgement' terms.

Here is a comment from a Muslim on metacafe about a video on "When Muslims ruled Europe"

KREAL187 3weeks ago
"We will gain Spain, Portugal and France back when Allah wills. Until then we are continuing to develop our culture and our society. Our intellectual movements never died."

Note the key words "Until then" .. and see what follows, where it describes AUSTRALIAn Muslims now.

MEREDITH Welcome back :) I'm checking the info u provided mate.
see http://www.10-teams.wikispaces.com.au

If according to the bible, man is the prototype and woman the copy,then why do men have nipples

Hey Boaz,

I looked on the link, it didn't work, but the protest calipahte site did ... It's great!

Here it is also on another site, along with more info on HUT meetings at Bankstown!
http://worldwar111.blogspot.com/2007/01/protest-against-hizb-ut-tahrir-in.html

This information needs to be spread far n wide... Aussies need to knwo what HUT is.

Isn't it great to see such a potentially volatile conversation topic being discussed with rare sense.

David I truly respect the concerns you have brought forward and on the other hand find the thoughts of some others quite frustrating: of course a majority of muslims in Australia are capable of being "decent" members of our society, but to simply ignore the minority would be foolish, no?

The difference between certain "outdated" excerpts from both "books" is the way in which the differently cultured people exercise their interpretatios of such. As societies progress and "civilise" these interpretations must be flexible to accommodate this. These texts are not written by gods but by men of the times. Surely for one of faith to follow such to the letter would be, well, insane? However history clearly shows the contrasting development with which both religions are carried out by their participants.

Having said all this, I do hope David and Co. continue to exercise tact and to make decisions based on constructive thought rather than pure emotion. I always consider perspective to be a critical tool, and so must one realise that (as a generalisation) many muslims here do tend not to be able to exercise such. So any action on your behalf, regardless of the thoughtful process, can easily be used by the minority extremist elements to intice the impressionable into exercising the very elements which one is trying to discourage.

Meliorator...I so appreciate your post.. you are 100% correct.. on every point, including the warnings.
I respond to your note of caution as follows. No matter what we do, no matter how benign or well thought out, it will be seen by, or even attempted to be used by others with differing agendas.
Even the concept of '10-teams'.
MEREDITH.. try this one mate http://10-teams.wikispaces.com/

As with any movement, the character and personality, objectives and goals are determined by the originator. These in turn, can be reshaped and even overturned by subsequent people serving the group.
This the sad side of life.
But if we allowed this to deter us from doing what we believe in our hearts should be done...then 'nothing' would be done..

The principles and objectives of 10-teams are outlined on the web site. They are specifically tailored to avoid the usual pitfalls of any social movement. "(Race based, color based, jingoistic etc)
At the same time, they recognize a specific threat, with specific real evidence on the religious and ethnic levels.

here is a little exercise..goto youtube and type in 'placename boys'
where placename is any town in Australia, but use just known sydney and melbourne ones, and see what comes up. Not many will give a result, but try 'placename lebs' and see.

Granville
Punchbowl
Auburn

Try this one.. see the symbolism, flags claiming beach territory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlDztjPzvSM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILNnkIQXB8c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZiwSUsr9jM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHURe9E8uq4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm8XY01Er_E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymmm76isFqc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM1eig_mKSA&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0SR8AfERlM "Lebs smash aussies"

The point I'm making here, is that this one group is claiming to 'rule' and that is outright racism of the worst kind. Cronulla was just a reaction to all this and their weekend exploits to pick fights.

I know of no group in Australia, deliberately making racist anti 'anyone' music except this group... I could be wrong, if so, someone correct me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayGvYMOYg9w

Sometimes when we see things 'all in one go' we realize just how much has slipped by our normal radar.. each thing taken by itself, in isolation does not seem to amount to much, but seeing it all together.. should worry even the most conservative person.
Cheeers.

BD I am not in conflict with you and mate I never hold back, some Muslims are a threat to Australia.
In my view not all but not for a second will I denie that fear, its shared by many ordinary Aussies.
Now this mad man, surely his only defence? is of use to us all, he highlights the way a section of his followers think.
The attempt to use broken English and like a mother duck pretending to be wounded to keep you away from the chicks, is in this case hideing the truth.
Such bigotted peope exist and no matter what God they follow are unwanted by most Australians.
I have lived and worked in parts of Sydney you highlight and while threatened by outlaw youths have never failed to stand up for myself, nore will I.

Onya Belly, I appreciate that mate.

for the record. I've been hacked and an address has been published on the web sites I did. I cannot say for sure, but the initial attack was in the name of 'MAHATMA DUCK' from OLO and while he is claiming others used his nick when making a threat, and posting an address, I have reservations.

LAST WILL and TESTAMENT ?

If anything happens to me, there are a few things I'd like people to know.

1/ I have fought the good fight, finished the race, kept the faith. (IITim4:7) I certainly have not always run well, but I have run.

2/ I pray that all who read my often passionate posts, will see past the passion, forget about me, and look at the factual reality. This especially applies to Muslims who are among those for whom Christ died.

3/ Jesus said "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. 25What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self? 26If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

4/ Anything happening to me, will mutiply many times over and simply prove what I've been saying all along.
5/ It not just 'away' from Islam that I point, but TO Christ Jesus. I urge all to consider their position in regard to Him. AMEN.

That kind of says it all.
Love to you all.

I used to think some of this was amusing but now I feel it's really very sad.

How did this happen?

Now I am insulted that their group that claims to have superior titles over those of us in Australia who have convict backgrounds. I agree with Belly. This really rubs the salt in wounds which go back over 100 years.

I'm out of my league in political opinion here. Blood is thicker than water. Their accusations are wrong about our convict ancestry. They put our family names in disrepute, and they have the gall to try to steal the high moral ground. They are using the premise "us and them" now so we can't pretend that we are all in the same boat at all.

For once I will not stand in the way of Amanda Vanstone if the Australian Government decides not to allow him back in the country.

Also, only a few years ago, Peter Tatchel, now an activist for peace in London, was banned from entering Australia. How do they allow these other activists in the country when their agendas could incite violence?

I read the references and I think Australia should negotiate our democracy on our own terms. They are setting up a trap to make Christians over react, and play passive agresive politics again.

BD you see the reason I did not e mail you I have been forced to change my isp.
The disturbing thing about some, not all not even most is they fail to give any value to others ideas.
And they think they are always right, an early sign of insanity.
Maybe I am wrong but its my right to think it, the few in the Muslim world who are at war with you and I are makeing use of the biggest enemy we in the western world have poor education.
And poor understanding of freedom.
We you and I must never stop highlighting Australia is indeed the best place in the world to live in.
And that our freedoms are being used against us by biggots.
It would only take a handfull of Muslims to truely demand change, do we wait in vain forever?

Boaz: "for the record. I've been hacked and an address has been published on the web sites I did."

A tad melodramatic, don't you think? I've just had a squizz at your anti-Muslim hate wikis, and there doesn't appear to be anything remotely threatening there - in fact there doesn't appear to be much discussion at all.

What address was posted? Hate to tell you, old son, but your home, church and business addresses are easily traceable by anyone with a little nous and a computer, just on the info you've provided in this forum.

C.J. what I find interesting, yet a bit tiresome is that my wiki's are well sourced, documented and reasoned.
They show a side of Islam rarely visible to the public, and yet you call them 'hate' sites ?

As I've said to my critics, debate the issues not the man.
If I've wrongly quoted a source, or misrepresented them, by all means take me to task.

I suppose the major difference is that I see a real threat socially, and you don't. Lets work towards reaching some common ground thru better discussion.
cheers.

CJ its easy to see you like to debate boots first.
You should understand your every opinion is not for sure and certain true.
While opininions are free none of us is always right.
I find your constant belittleing of others views a weakness in your debateing style.
BD while I am no longer a Christian your rights to be concerned about very real threats to our country is respected.
And unhelpfull to some, but a view shared by most Australians
Do not back down to insulting put downs
regards .

Yeah, there does appear to be more melodrama here than a soapie program, however a message shouldn't be ignored due to the form of delivery, but viewed with an open mind.

To be honest I am highly sceptical of any truly "active" means with which to address a very valid point which has been raised. As I mentioned before most potential actions will purely be viewed by others as "yet another misguided stereotypical attack" on their rights.

My only suggestion is to use an organised campaign to target politicians and the more diplomatic muslim leaders. Put pressure on them to deliver their stances on the issue and any steps that will be taken to deal with cases which jeopardise such. It is a most worrying precedent that both Australian authorities and muslim heirachy continue to tolerate, for example, the mufti making extremist statements which are supposed to reflect the entire muslim community. There is certainly no better time than now to pursue a sound resolution and build the foundations for a harmonious future.

I do strongly feel that for us to remain the "lucky country" certain steps do need to be taken to maintain that. Sadly, I think most need to be done at a political level, or with mass lobbying by concerned citizens in a respectful manner. So just like countries need to squeeze the Sudanese government and China where it hurts to finally end the genocide in Darfur, a means of putting pressure on our government and muslim leaders to work together to maintain our precious freedoms is also required.

‘With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil – that takes religion.’ - Steven Weinberg

The greatest fraud inflicted on the human race must be the promotion of any religion- which are all based on little more than hearsay or myth.
Consequently it needs to be treated the same manner as any other fraud.
To think that religion is given special dispensation in the form of protection from critical examination or even taxes sickens me-given their ability to create great wealth.

Freedom of thought is the right of anyone, however when belief impacts adversely on society as in recent Muslim terrorism or even the highly questionable activities of sects such as the Exclusive Brethren – the full process of law is not only required but should be mandatory.

Historically, religion has inflicted terrible suffering on people and suppresses scientific knowledge which is ongoing.

Some of the above posts are examples of hatred spewed forth by religious intolerance.

BD, yes, cherry picking the worst of ANY religious text is all too easy and it was my intention to show you in a previous post.
The hypocracy this reveals is not only appalling but frightening for the divisiveness and ongoing antagonism this creates within our society.

It’s time for freedom from myths, legends, fables and superstition; time to apply reason with factual information for the solution of every problem.
No longer should religions have exemption from laws that apply to all other people and organisations.

Of course the number one religion in Australia and the the rest of the Western world is the worship of self. This is clearly seen in those who claim to be athiest and yet continue to be preach that no one can believe in absoulutes except themselves. Evolution along with earth worshipping is truely the biggest fraud that has been exposed in the last 50 years. The deception of this man made religion has left a great void in peoples lives leaving them to turn to another fraud in Islam or Buddhism.

runner - Would you mind explaing how the theory of Evolution has led to more people following Islam and Buddhism? Do you have statistics on this? And how is Evolution fraud? And how has it been exposed as such?

Probably should keep your answers short, though, as none of what you said has anything to do with the topic.

Spendocrat

The need for man to worship is demonstrated time and time again by people. We often see sports and movie stars being worshipped by adoring fans.

The false religion of evolution (see pathetic attempts on other posts to support it) discounts the obvious that we humans are fearfully and wonderfully made (design is obvious). Whenever the Creator is taken out of the equation we see the void in peoples lives leading them to worship themselves or other man made idols. Many find out that the worshipping of humans can only lead to disappointments (ask Shayne Warnes wife, Kofi Anan etc).

In Australia our smart social engineers that blame religion for every woe have left the living God out of the equation and replaced it with the false theory of evolution. Hence we find suicide rates among young
people at record levels and multitudes with no other purpose in life but to eat drink and be merry. We find little to no morality among many because we foolishly believe we don't need to give account to anyone. We mock and criticize the only One who can forgive us of our sins and crimes. We can murder the unborn because they are not yet supposedly humans despite what true science tells us. We whites can be superior to the aboriginals because evolution teaches they have not quite evolved to our level yet.

Wow, we've found the western equivalent to whatshisface, the actual subject of this thread!

Ok, firstly - no other purpose to eat, drink and be merry...you think that *causes* suicide? Wow. That sounds pretty awsome to me. Just add 'smoke' to the list, and I'll be one merry...cherry.

As for your extremely confused view of evolution - do some research, perhaps, before dismissing it. You have a lot of certainty, but you must realise it is dangerous to be so certain about something you have very little knowledge of (the stuff about Aboriginals clearly demonstrates you have absolutely no idea about Evolution and how it works). So learn, please, then feel free to comment.

Then there's some other wacky stuff about abortion and so on...eh, it's all too wacky for me really. I guess the lesson is (and I can spin this back on topic too) that the real world continues on, despite severely deluded people.

Cevilia - your last post was an absolute breath of fresh air. Sadly however, such an ideal is unlikely ever to make an impact on this world which is so obsessed with the egotistical notion that there is so much more to existence than this apparently meagre life "as we know it." Also unfortunately it strays considerably from the topic at hand, as no doubt mine will probably end up doing also - sorry!

Runner - I personally am agnostic (although I'm sure having said that, you'll assume your own definition of what I mean and all the other things I could possibly "believe" in). To not believe in a god (correction = in a religion), and to instead place faith in oneself and the world as I "know" it, hardly goes hand in hand with being a selfish, narrow-minded human being. I am far from materialistic (for a Westerner) and my advocacy would put most idealistic "alleged believers" to shame. If you really want to discuss the "usefulness" of theocracy, you are more than welcome to open your own thread.

In the end, religion is engrained in society across the globe and here to stay. As people, we should be entitled to speak our minds. As people though who are ambassadors for a number of others, this freedom ought to be compromised to reflect such. The sheikh and his ilk should be dealt with by their community. For their community to tolerate such however, would display a willingness on their part to be perceived in the same light as the leader whom they've elected. it's time for the muslim community to make their own stand rather than just making excuses.

I continue to be astounded by the convoluted forms of logic and expression that are the products of religious minds. From the inspired lunacy of Hilaly to the boofheaded creationism of runner, from the brownshirted rabble-rousing of Boaz to the delusions of world domination of Hizb Ut Tahrir, they share the capacity to stretch human credulity to ever more fantastic politico-religious bounds!

I really hope that these militant religions bring a lot of meaning and comfort to their adherents, because from where I sit they seem to cause an awful lot of grief, misery and division where ever they raise their ugly heads.

I'm with spendo (again) - what's wrong with food, drink and merriment? Should be more of it all round, I say.

Did somebody mention smoko? Pass it around please :)

I am not a follower or beleiver in any God, once a christian I now know I was wrong.
But how is that impacting on my right to ask how can this leader of a very large section of his comunity talk like this?
Why has he not been charged ? why would I be charged in seconds if I went to his place of whorship and said I have doupts we can live together?
One day goverments may act for the majority but I doupt it multi culturism is in pain after this and yesterdays discrasefull tennis riot.
Do we need it?

what's wrong with food, drink and merriment? Should be more of it all round, I say.

nothing! but its silly to think it is the answer to hatred.

Meliorator.. you said: "To be honest I am highly sceptical of any truly "active" means with which to address a very valid point which has been raised"

Valid and important point. The main 'value' of any activism is in reality to produce a sense of cohesian and identity an 'us' if you will, to stand against a 'them' who are primarily interested in forcing (in reality) us to become 'them'.

So, while a large gathering of non Muslim Aussies of both Christian and Secular background at a Seminar calling for world Muslim Caliphate may seem not to have much impact on the target.. Hizb Ut Tahrir, it will without question have impact on us. I quote from the mouth of one of the Cronulla protesters "I've never felt so much a part of something in my life"

CELIVIA its most important to sort out those text you quoted, and MOST important to know the simple meaning of 'context'.
When I claim Islam 'justifies sexual slavery' I do so in 'context' of where it is stated, i.e. a list of qualities and permissions for believers. There is no possible alternative understanding. When this is backed up by Sharia Scholars today, its game set match.

Jesus words on the other hand, have many contexts, and he spoke in parables, allegories and outright statements and commands. One has to know which is which before putting a whole lot of verses together.
Thats why I suggested you email me.

BELLY, its not the likes of CJ and his inuendo against me that worries me, but implied death threats do take their toll. I'm stronger now from not having caved in, nor will I. (some 'Muslim brothers' coming along with a loaded Glock might shut me up though, permanently) But the seed of the Church is the blood of the martyrs.
'Melodrama' is when it has no possible connection with reality.

CJ said: "I continue to be astounded by the convoluted forms of logic and expression that are the products of religious minds."

On that little doozy, I myself am still picking my jaw up off the ground at the crazy workings of CJ. mind which sees 'nazi' in a breaking down of racist barriers and embracing of all others in the name of a new and united Australia.

I could understand this if I was a card carrying member of StormFront' and 'WhitePride' and was constantly harping about the superior qualities of the 'WHITE' race.....but.. in the absence of any of these, its a mystery where he finds 'jackboots, brownshirts' and German translations of my ONE NATION,ONE RACE, ONE CULTURE mantra.

Hope ur all coping well with the heart.. 40 here now.. *sigh*

Hang in there Runner; it looks like you just got a dose of Expendocrapton;
I can not imagine it has read much of Charles Darwin’s hypothesis ether, but that is a bit away from this thread.

I can give you a link to all his publications, and then, all his predecessors, who were in the beginning staunch supporters; but realized the flaws later in findings; truly documented and Non Political.
Spendocrat would be prattling off some manifesto automaton run sheet. And did not offer constructive criticism.
There is some merit in mentioning the links to Suicide.

You do not need to be offering criticism of Islam to get death threats from Mohammedans ; that comes with the territory;

Ease up a bit with the NAZI mantra BD; you are starting to believe all that crap.
There is no need to mention NAZIS at all; Proletariat Propaganda will suffice, exactally the same meaning.

"Spendocrat would be prattling off some manifesto automaton run sheet."

Heh, yes, suggesting knowledge before certainty, how mindless of me.

The worldwide caliphate is what Osama Bin Laden wants. The "choice" given others is become a believer or death.

Osama's lieutenants have said they have a "right" to kill millions of men, women and children who don't believe.

That doesn't seem peaceful to me, but the opposite.

"That doesn't seem peaceful to me, but the opposite."

This persons IQ is off the charts. Genius level intelligence. Don't waste your time on an internet forum when that brain could be used at NASA or something. Go, for the good of humanity!

Meliorator
Yes I do realise my post was a not directly on topic but I felt I needed to make the comment; I think it still is indirectly linked to the topic: some Christian Islamophobes are making a scapegoat out of Islam while promoting Christianity. Slagging off one religion while promoting another is hardly an objective stance to take given the atrocities committed in the name of all religions throughout the ages.

Runner,
why are you in some way linking Islam and Buddhism? Islam, Christianity and Judaism share the same Middle Eastern roots- therefore are part of the same hoodwink of gullible people.

Evolution as a fraud? I realise it’s a bit off-topic here but perhaps I’ll go back to the evolution thread when I have time (and need a laugh) to see if you are able to explain fossil and tectonic evidence.

"The false religion of evolution..."
Evolution is a science, not a religion.
How is design obvious? The evolution theory exists because ID or creationism is based on faith, is illogic, unreasonable and doesn’t make the slightest sense.

Racism and evolution:
Evolution has only been deduced and evidenced by many intelligent scientific minds in the past 2 centuries.
Question to broaden your mind: How long has racism been around?

BD
Nothing personal, but I neither have time nor interest to exchange emails about bible quotes. I’m sure Muslims could come up with excuses for the violence and sexism in their Koran as well if we cared to exchange emails about the Koran with them.

Do you believe that you’re a martyr?
You are having a two-way bet.
If you die (and we all must die) then do you believe it is because you are right and was eliminated because of your application of what you perceive as truth.
If you continue to live, then it is because your ‘truth’ has won out over evil.

Spendocrat,
Good on ya- you’re one of the few posters here who see a picture that goes outside the edge of a mainstream media article.

Continued

Hizb Ut Tahrir conference:

Even though this is a Muslim group which is ‘said’ by the media to be ultra-radical, there are no grounds to ban them from organising a conference in Australia.

Since we live in a democracy where people should be free to hold a conference and since there is no proof that they are advocating terrorism this demonstration is going to be useless.

All you Christian Islamophobes are being sucked in by the mainstream media; their coverage of this has contributed to the hysterical Muslim bashing evident on this thread and which pervades Australian society.

Why don’t you change course and demonstrate against our government, which is waging a murderous and illegal war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Their anti-terrorist laws make no sense and haven’t done anything to reduce terrorism.

Celivia,

I thought you might have felt differently given the really serious problems - including murder - caused by Muslims in Holland.

Perhaps you have really cut yourself off from the old country?

SPENDO... young pella... On another thread.. I referred you to this site "PROPHET OF DOOM" with some links..
well.. I've been digging into it a bit further and clicked on one of the links there.. "In the Company of Good and Evil". It turns out that the Site founder is one Craig Winn who co founded 'Value America' an etailing site. I got totally sidetracked from the Islamic stuff and engrossed in the story of corporate intrigue.. that link is in fact a E-BOOK.. very readable ..could not let it go !
Then..I did some searches of stories about Value America and came across many things discussed in the book. I tell you its like 'The Bourne Identity' but without the physical shootings.

http://inthecompanyofgoodandevil.com/

Celivia.. your reluctance to discuss the verses you quote but fail to understand is tantamount to a closed mind and confession of willful ignorance :) sorry but it is. *pinch*. We can overcome your lack of understanding in probably 1 email. But I thoroughly recommend the Prophetofdoom site..it answers most which might arise regarding Islam.
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/

FEEDBACK.. see what Muslims say to this site:
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Feedback.Islam Its definitely "R" rated.

Have a nice rest all... can hardly keep my eyes open here...
nite

I followed the feedback link DB nothing new there it is clear that biggoted type of hate is what passes for education in some parts.
The insult talking of sex with ones own mother is pure gutter talk and nothing a person who uses it says is worth listening to.
We must understand while totaly oposed to these enemys of truth and freedom , good Muslims , while not as high profile exist.

spendocrat
THX for the sarcasm in return for my sarcasm.

Leigh, good point, but I also care about murders committed by non-Muslims.
I can see the negatives and positives of my original country and of Australia. Violence as well as racism happens in ALL countries, unfortunately.
Of course I don’t deny that there have been problems with immigration in Holland and other parts of Europe- but even so, and I reiterate: there are no grounds to ban Hizb ut-Tahrir from organising a seminar in a democratic country.

I’d like to see zero tolerance for racist hate-spreading and violence-inciting sheikhs and others, but always in individual cases like we have seen from Sheikh Feiz Mohammad; he should be charged.
I’d like to see zero tolerance for celebrities who spread hate and racism as well- whether they are drunk or sober.
That’s why I mentioned Mel Gibson and Michael Richards’ (Kramer) racial tirades –both appalling.

Let people focus on individuals like the sheikhs and celebrities who have the power to set an example for our children.
Let us show zero tolerance for any offenders; not just offenders who do not fit into our personal picture.

Continued below

BD,
“Has anyone experienced Multiculturalism which in reality has become 'cultural imperialism' and outright discrimination against Aussies represented by the Union Jack ?”
Nope. Have experienced my fair share of sexual harassment and sexism though.

Why would I, as an atheist, be interested in discussing verses or quotes from the Bible- I could discuss this every time a JW bangs on my door but I choose not to go into it.

Seriously- you are cherry-picking from the Koran as I am from the Bible. What is the difference? Mohammed might have spoken in parables as well- who knows? (Not that I want to defend Mohammed, but just making a point).
All I wanted to show you is that it is all too easy to pick texts from some holy book and use them to spread hate against a group of people.
As I said, you can probably find a Muslim who would want to discuss these quotes from the Koran with you and tell you all about parables and context.

It is much harder to spread love and compassion than it is to spread hate and unkindness.
WWJD?

“It is the enemy who can truly teach us to practice the virtues of compassion and tolerance.”
Dalai Lama

I hear some Tibetan shamans practice black magic/occultism which includes violence against their targets, something like voodoo. Is the Dalai Lama the good face of Tibetan black magic, the PR branch?

Eurasian shamans advised their nomad tribes as to whether or not their sky god(s) were "with them" in battle, as they rode out to kill.

They climbed the sky tree, using psychedelic drugs, to "communicate" with the Gods. The symbol of climbing was sometimes the horse, that vehicle that was the equivalent of the modern day stealth bomber, that made possible the conquering of other tribes. Hence the winged horse of mythological status....

Runner, Philo, HW. I'd love to get your emails. However I can understand if you wouldn't want to publish it. I wouldn't.

Celivia

I'm not cherry picking verses from the Quran mate.. I'm using them AS USED by Muslims.. that's the important distinction.

Please have a peek at this, and then you will see how Muslims (radical yes.. Wahabists.. but nevertheless coming up with valid intepretations)

The Doctrine.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1sec2.htm

The Person who follows it.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/01/17/warwithin.overview/index.html

OTHER examples
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014808.php

All I'm saying is that the Quran + Hadith support a very different picture of Islam as a socio/political force than we are usually presented with by so called Moderate Muslims.

So, I'm not cherry picking. You are :) yes.. indeed you are. Because you will not find any example to my knowledge of a similar level of radical interpretation of the Bible to support violence or terror.

The notable exception is Fred Phelps and extended family, who, on the issue of Homosexual behavior are living in the Old Testament Theocratic zone. Innapplicable to post New Testament Christian life.
(Gods attitude remains the same, but punishment is reserved for the afterlife)

You need to look at standard methods of interpreting literary documents and you will find help there :)

Puh-lease don't mention Joseph Coney or the Lords Resistance Army, he has clearly mentioned that he gets his strength from spirits...he is an animist with a thin veneer of Christian terminology.. the only Christian thing about him is the name "Lords"....

Whereas Abu Izzadeen, who wants to kill unbelievers and specially those who even criticize Mohammed, can obtain this from ABUNDANT and more importantly 'valid' selections of the Quran and Hadith.

They are in context and rightly interpreted and to me totally repugnant.

Boaz: "You need to look at standard methods of interpreting literary documents and you will find help there :)"

I think our resident expert in Islamic hermeneutics needs to seek help outside the texts with which he is evidently obsessed :)

CJ I spent 3 years learning the principles of hermeneutics and Biblical interpretation and a solid semester or 2 on Inductive study of documents, I do have a few clues about these things.

I hereby declare you last post a 'boomerang' and watch as is whizzes its way back toward you... *clunk*..there.. now follow ur own advice.

cheers mate

So, Boaz...

>>I spent 3 years learning the principles of hermeneutics and Biblical interpretation and a solid semester or 2 on Inductive study of documents, I do have a few clues about these things<<

Pray tell, who were your teachers on this journey of enlightenment?

I am prepared to take a boomerang on this if it turns out to be a religiously non-aligned body, but I suspect we are back in the closed-loop game again.

Learn all the defences (those murderers in Northern Ireland weren't really Christians) as well as all the attacks (it's all in the Koran, they are forced to kill all unbelievers).

Sadly, after such brainwashing it appears impossible to approach any vaguely spiritual topic without donning the tunnel-vision glasses.

Same thing happens, I'm sure, in the anti-Christian extremist equivalent of our Christian evangelist in other fanatical religions.

Pericles,
Pray tell me which parts of the teachings of Jesus Christ were the terrorists of Northern Ireland following? Quote text from his teachings that they held to support their actions.

BD.
Hermeneutics: I know that theologicians have claimed that word as their own, but all it means is 'making excuses for all the contradictions, violence and evil that are in the Bible so as to fool yourself that they really are not evil.'

The world would be more peaceful without religions at all; aren't you religious people getting sick and tired of attacking each other's religions and promoting your own? Killings, holy wars, inquisitions, vilifications, torture, it seems like a never-ending tragedy all because of something imaginary: a God.
Put the effort and money in something worthwhile, like saving the environment, or something. Sigh.

Philo, perhaps:
”And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.” ?Leviticus 24:16

Isn't the bible, like the Koran, full of injunctions to kill? Here's more:

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones."
--- Numbers 31:17

"Slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."
--- 1 Samuel 15:3

"Dash their children, and rip up their women with child."
--- 2 Kings 8:12

"Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished."
--- Isaiah 13:16

"They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children."
--- Isaiah 13:18

"Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children."
--- Ezekiel 9:6

"Their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
--- Hosea 13:16

I'm aware that I've been cherry-picking but I'm sure some 'hermeneuticians' have the perfect explanation for anti-life statements so their religion remains to be seen as 'pro-life'.

Philo, a stunningly irrelevant question, if I may say so.

>>Pray tell me which parts of the teachings of Jesus Christ were the terrorists of Northern Ireland following? Quote text from his teachings that they held to support their actions.<<

Maybe it had escaped your attention that both the Protestants and Catholics of Northern Ireland defined themselves by their religion. Both sides described themselves as Christian.

Now, there is no point in asking me such a fatuous question, is there? Much better that you take it upon yourself to go over there and ask them yourself.

In fact, I'd particularly like to be a fly on the wall when you put it to, say, the Reverend Ian Paisley. Now there's a professional God-fearing Christian man for you. Make sure he doesn't cheat with the supporting texts, won't you?

The fact remains that Christianity was their banner. Both sides. It has consistently been described as "sectarian violence", the sects involved being different flavours of Christianity.

In much the same way that a number of our terrorists-de-jour identify themselves as Muslim, the terrorists of Northern Ireland freely declared themselves to be Christians.

And in much the same way as you and Boaz so frequently do, I have tarred them all with the same brush.

I am aware that you both hold a degree in double-standards. One day, I hope you will be aware of it too.

I note that not one single text quoted was actually uttered by Jesus Christ or those following his teachings. He never supported such attitudes of nationalism in building the kingdom of God. The texts quoted refer to Nationalist Israel and their survival as a bordered nation among nations. Their nationalist situation for them has not changed - they are still at war.

Jesus said his kingdom is not of the proud nationalist systems of this world - especially note he considered the zealots and their sympathisers as the enemy of God - the Satan - including Peter who was later converted to his teachings. After his incident with using the dagger he was converted to teach Christians to suffer persecution for the sake of the the kingdom - and he was later crucified upside down at his request when persecuted and put to death.

Dear Pericles.. good for the goose, good for the gander.. there you go AGAIN claiming I am tarring all with the same brush.. how many times have you done this now ? I gave up counting ages ago. You pick on my stats, yet you continually misrepresent my own position with monotonous regularity.
My beef is with ISLAM.. and radical Muslims. I do believe that a total halt to Muslim immigration will be better for the country, but that does not imply any hatred for people. Its a social policy matter.
Personal "feelings" as such don't come into that. The only relevant 'feeling' one of concern for the good of the country based on information about a particular group. This is why we have 'proscribed organizations' which are banned. I'm suggesting that this does not go far enough.

I'm surprised that after all this time you seem to revert to entrenched opinions about my views for which you have little basis.
I speak of 'One Nation' etc..and you think I'm a white supremacist, a racist and a Mosely quite in SPITE of what I have actually said.

On this thread, I'm making the point about an organization which is in reality a threat larger than you seem to want to recognize.

I don't know how you feel about Sheikh Faiz Mohammed making grunting sounds like a pig and smiling as he declares all Jews will be turned into pigs and apes and destroyed....but I don't really see much socially redemptive value in that.

Boaz, there is a simple answer.

>>there you go AGAIN claiming I am tarring all with the same brush.. how many times have you done this now ? I gave up counting ages ago.<<

How many times?

Since I only tend to respond to the more egregious examples, I call you to account on far fewer occasions than I would if I were tracking every example. So the cure lies in your hands.

Stop doing it, and I will not be able to draw attention to it.

>>My beef is with ISLAM.. and radical Muslims<<

This is the starting point of your problem, so let me try to help a little.

In common, I suspect, with all posters here, I have no "beef" with Christianity. I see it as a perfectly harmless way for an individual to treat their own insecurities, so is by and large beneficial to mankind.

However, I do have a "beef" with anyone who uses religion - Christianity or any other - as a weapon with which to intimidate, coerce or even murder their fellow-man.

You have chosen this path, and that is what I object to most strongly. At the slightest opportunity you will vilify, demean and otherwise disrespect Islam. You rationalize this as separating the religion from the individual, but that is as naive as saying "I have nothing against Jews, it is Judaism that is the problem."

And quite seriously, you have absolutely no idea how Mosley-ite this is:

>>The only relevant 'feeling' one of concern for the good of the country based on information about a particular group<<

Read, mark, learn and understand. You are potentially a danger to yourself and others, and as with so many well-meaning single-issue fanatics, you are unable to see it.

Hi Pericles.
I have to disagree with your assessement of "I don't have a problem with Jews, its Judaism I don't like" on me.
Although it might take some time, even a few hours, I'm sure I can successfully demonstrate that Christianity and Islam are like chalk and cheeze in regard to religiously sanctioned violence.

The actions of the radicals in that video have their foundation in the Hadith.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/001.smt.html
scroll to number 31, 32 and 33 and pls read.

I won't re-hash all I've argued over the years here, because you have a very sympathetic heart for ur fellow man, and this tends to prevent you seeing the 'cutting edge' or the real 'pulse' of Islam. You see it as just another 'religion' and useful I presume, as you also view Christianity.

Bear in mind, this is a political forum. I'm seriously trying to change government policy. Be thankful that I'm arguing it, rather than forcing it as these people tried in Indonesia against some Christians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP4CvfnbQaw

How many times have I said "Its the radicals who drive the agenda" ?
Then I've said "The bigger the community of Mulims, the more radicals there will be"

I'd also add, that DUE to the radicals.. who usually get arrested, and then the security forces focus on the Muslim community, self feeding the whole cycle due to an increased feeling of alienation.
But it 'starts' at the heart of Islam itself. If Islam taught 'Love those who persecute you and bless rather than curse" there would be no Jihadists, just as there are no noticable violent Crusaders among Christians communities.
Events in Indonesia (Poso, Sulawisi) did result in some sad retalliation and self defense and even offense, and this cannot be denied, but again, I think close examination will see the work of Islamic radicals at the core of the initial problem. An anthropological study showed a complex web of events, but it boiled down to religious jealousy.

Well Boaz, I would have been surprised if you actually stated that you agreed with me, as opposed to simply writing stuff that proves my point. You claim that you...

>>... have to disagree with your assessement of "I don't have a problem with Jews, its Judaism I don't like" on me.<<

If you disagree, could you explain exactly how this statement of mine above differs from this statement of yours "My beef is with ISLAM.. and radical Muslims".

Unstated, but assumed, is that you have no "beef" with non-radical Muslims, in which case we are simply left with "I don't have a problem with (non-radical) Muslims, it's Islam I don't like"

You must have very finely tuned critical faculties as well as a degree in creative hermeneutics to still be able to discern any vestige of difference between the two statements.

>>Although it might take some time, even a few hours, I'm sure I can successfully demonstrate that Christianity and Islam are like chalk and cheeze in regard to religiously sanctioned violence.<<

First you will have to get past that quote from the Bar-Ilan University website I posted on another thread:

"The Crusaders savagely murdered the Jewish and Moslem inhabitants of Jerusalem. The dimensions of the massacre were so horrific that 'rivers of blood' flowed through the streets and even covered the horses hooves. William of Tyre described the victorious Crusaders 'dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which bought terror to all who met them'. The Jewish community was locked in the central synagogue and burnt alive. The few thousand survivors, out of a population of 40,000, were sold as slaves at the city gates. When they finished murdering thousands of innocent people the Crusaders gathered at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre to give thanks."

"Religiously sanctioned violence" anyone?

Hi_Pericles...
ok..thanx for giving me the opportunity to further clarify

"My beef is with Islam and radical Muslims, not Muslims in general"..

Simple. "Average" Muslims are cultural. Radical Muslims are Quranic.

Islam is as important to the 'average' muslim as it is to the average nominal Christian. Hence they don't constitute much of a social problem or threat.
Radicals or those who do know and follow their faith with strictness, are definitely a problem, and a growing threat. To see an example of such people, revisit the vid on Indonesian Christians being hassled by the radical Muslims (its in a link above) and note the confrontation between the Muslim and the Christian... the one on one.. with the Muslim grabbing the Christians hand and almost punching him.. after berating him. (When I get the audio back on my PC I'll tell you exactly what that radical said)

The Serbs also obtained the blessing prior to slaughtering the Muslims of Srebriniza, but can you find "Genocide for the enemies of Christ" taught as a doctrine in the New Testament ? (yes..you can find examples of Judgement and general warfare in the old ..I know that)

The extent of my 'Mosely'-ism is to agitate for immigration reform, and to proclaim Christ and the Gospel. There is no point just whacking into Islam alone. But a whack it surely needs, due to the deceptive sugar coating it uses to induce people into its clutches.

I've yet to hear a Muslim evangelist say "Turn to Allah.. and if you turn away again or have an affair.. we will brutally kill you" but hey..that is the concensus of the Muslims in Sharia for apostates and various other offenses such as simply insulting the prophet.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm#video
(strong stomach required)

No matter what you think... remember one thing..this ..is Iran..TODAY.. and it is also strict Islam..TODAY.. not 2000 yrs ago.
This IS the Sharia law in action. Maybe you were enjoying a nice cuppa at the time this was happening..and were not even aware of it.
No blame there.. just illustrates how remote it 'seems' to us.

I just received this email via a post on a blog DB, what do you make of it.

"I live in rural northern victoria and when I recently did my firearms safety coarse I was shocked to notice I was one of 4 white Australians out of about twenty five people there, the remainder being African and mainly Turkish, men women and children all going in big groups to get their gun licences.

The big Turkish group had a definite sense of urgency asking several times how fast they could buy guns and how many, one young turk about 10 or 11 asked if he could get his gun quicker because his school principal had filled out the paperwork for him, I thought this to be highly unusual until I remembered there is an islamic school (Isik college) a lot of the turk kids go to.

I did not ask the kid where he went to school but id find it very unusual if school principals at the run of the mill public or catholic schools would be doing anything other than towing the politically correct anti gun movement trailer and most definitely not encouraging and filling in paper work for large numbers of a certain ethnicity to go and get weapons and licences.

So there you go, id like to know what is being said in the local islamic school or mosque and what the sudden urgency to aquire firearms by every turkish man woman and child in the local area is?

Whats in the wind some sort of islamic insurrection against us skips?

Are they preparing for a civil war?"

The replies told him to contact the AFP and tell them about the situation

Dear All *THANKS* mate.. I hope all those who poo poo the kinds of things we have been saying will read that comment and I can ADD one more.
Paint Ball outings are being used by Arabs/Muslmis to practice real world combat training techniques.

Please email me the details about that incident.. I'll tell you why in my reply. jjjdrot@yahoo.com.au

Give me place, and any contact details which may assist in tracking down the people concerned, and the blogger info would help also.
I have some very well resourced 'friends' who may be interested in this.
cheers mate.

ALL.. sorry that email was wrong jjjdrmot@yahoo.com.au
cheers

ALL.. sorry that email was wrong the correct one is jjjdrmot@yahoo.com.au
cheers

"Paint Ball outings are being used by Arabs/Muslims to practice real world combat training techniques".

Yes, I have seen this, about two years ago; I had cause to venture into the Paintball game center at Scofields NSW.
Mind you they are far too Gung hoo and Rambo like and in the second set; I deactivated 80% of the clown by my self. Call it conservative values.

But in reality as we have seen in Iraq, the Insurgents are dosed up on Methamphetamines which does pose a real superlative superhuman trait. They are devoid of Human Consciousness and responses; that, and Psychological Indoctrination is a supernatural formidable weapon;Out side of Mosley; conclusively they are soulless; what part of that do our Political / (Alleged) Intelligencia Lobotomized not understand? or they don't want to understand.

I’ l have to dig through the Email box DB, see what I can come up with.

REAL QUOTES FROM ISLAM'S QURAN:

http://answeringPROPHETOFDOOM.net/Islamic_Quotes.php

"And KILL them where ever you find them..." Quran 2:191

http://answeringPROPHETOFDOOM.net/Islam_in_Action_Kill_Them_Where_Ever_You_Find_Them.php

Know the real picture of Islam ...
http://answeringPROPHETOFDOOM.net

finally Exposed !