I've got a close family friend who's
going through a divorce. We've spent
many hours discussing things like -
attributes of a good marriage partner,
what qualities do you look for in a mate?
The fact that individuals change over time,
and we always end up back to the question -
"How do you make a marriage work for a lifetime?"

I'd be interested in your views on the topic.

Why don't you ask a hard one Foxy, this one is too easy.

After no more than 7 days honeymoon, you move to different states, at least 500Km apart.

Visit each other for no more than 7 days, twice a year.

If you are male, send lots of money.

If you are a lady, don't throw your $200,000 engagement ring down the toilet.

Everyone's marriage is different.

Mine especially so as I'm not even married. But we are committed, and we're a team.

For us; laughing, getting drunk together, and ensuring together that life is good for both regardless of the circumstances. One partner can carry the other for a while but once it gets to a year when someone is putting in more than the other (who's dealing with their own sh1t), you're on shaky ground.

Lots of sex is a must as I think couples who don't shag are on the way to losing it all. It's a sure fire sign. Sex brings communication, and fitness too. If you cant find time for the most enjoyable feelings in life you really have lost your way. Kids are no excuse, and sex is more than penetration.

BTW: Ecstasy is actually a good tool to enhance communication in couples. It's a truth serum of sorts, and the truths come out when people are full of endorphins and serotonin and the loved up feeling allows harsh truths to be born out at the time without any conflict, and the information still to be kept for a later date to enhance understanding in a relationship.

It's no surprise that sex and drugs, once again, hold the answers we all seek.

An Idea for Foxy: Get them to look at OLO gender threads and other relationship type forums. They'll see so many hateful, bitter people it will convince them their marriage is always better than the poor lost souls out there. They'll get an idea of the pool of freaks they'll be mixing it with trying to find a new partner. They'll also see what fun the CSA seems to be.

Get married at 80?

Divorce is very common Foxy and often I think it is because people want too much from each other. We are all guilty of this at times but if we can temper it with some realism and accept the other person for their faults and positives you are on your way.

There is no real answer I think as we are all very individual and what works for one couple won't necessarily for others.

It is becoming more difficult in an era where the self is considered more important than the group. Marriage has to be a team effort.

Also a marriage might last a lifetime but it does not necessarily mean it is a happy one. My Great Grandmother put up with a drinking husband for years in an era that taught you made your bed lie in it. Lasted till death do us part but was not a happy one.

First you must love each other. After the first month buy two pairs of Boxing Gloves, his and hers.
Put them on whenever a discussion is imminent. Both of you shout your corner. Male leadership is out.
You want to invest $100,000. Split it into two $50,000 and each decide for yourself. You can laugh or cry to each other later.
Men learn a new vocabulary: MMM! AAH! and never try to end a conversation.

People say it’s better to be divorced than living together unhappily. That may be true, but it’s better to be happily married than happily divorced.

There’s no way to guarantee it but you can certainly reduce the odds in your favour.

1. Decide to have a happy marriage for life.
2. Select as partner someone who is sane and decent, and has the same aim.
3. Make a commitment – in words - to each other to be married for life.
4. Make the marriage a good deal for your partner.
5. Make a habit of providing what your partner wants.
6. Ask for you what you want, and make it easy for your partner to hear and to provide it.

You’d be surprised the number of people who end up divorced who never decided to be married for life. I know someone who married a complete drop-kick, and had a horrible divorce. Later we asked her about it and she said “Oh I thought I would get married and if it didn’t turn out, I could always divorce him later.”!

You’d be surprised at the number of people who marry or partner someone with mental health issues, or a drug or alcohol problem, or a gambling addiction, or a criminal history, and so on. You have to be discriminating.

I asked another single mother if she had ever made a commitment to her partner. “No” she said in a superior tone “We didn’t need to. We *just knew* we were committed to each other.”!

You’d be surprised at the number of people who expect their spouse to know what they want without asking for it. Or spouses who try to solve conflict by asking what’s “reasonable”, or what’s normal, or what’s equal. The real question is whether the parties are happy.

Contrary to popular opinion, the critical ingredient is not love, which should not be expected to be the beast of burden on which the parties throw all their troubles, stresses, financial dealings, parenting etc. etc. The critical ingredient is commitment, and mutual satisfaction.

The short answer, foxy, is that there isn't a short answer.

One of the realities of life is that we don't necessarily stop changing, throughout our lives.

We change physically, which can be a problem.

If one partner has expectations that do not include this factor, disappointment sets in and the rot begins.

We change mentally, which can be a problem in exactly the same way.

And is far more tricky to fix.

If I start out as a rabid greenie, and you fall in love with my enthusiasm for tilting at windmills, then you are going to be upset when I start to think that John Howard wasn't such a bad chap after all.

On the other hand, if I fell in love with your sound common sense and good financial management, and you decided that we should give up our city apartment and go and live somewhere back of Nimbin and grow weed, I might have cause for concern too.

The worst possible reaction, of course, is to walk away without understanding what went wrong, and immediately create the same no-win situation with someone else.

As it happens, I'm pretty certain I have found my life partner. We talk about everything. Argue about most things. But respect that we are both smart enough not to play games any more. If we argue long enough, we invariably reach a solid compromise. The bruises we give each other in the process are all part of the deal, and are worn as badges of honour rather than resented.

Can't say it would work for anyone else though.

Which is probably as it should be. If there were a formula that worked for all, what a truly boring world it would be.

Hiya Foxy.

1. Our relationship and home are a refuge from all the craziness of life and the demands of people outside the marriage. For example, make distance from any in-laws and various annoying relatives and nosy friends.
2. Take a day off work every anniversary to spend together. We drink champagne, reminisce, look through pics of the kids and laugh a lot.
3. I always talk about my spouse as if he was in the room. I'm considerate of his feelings and dignity and he is of mine.
4. What isn't done by Friday 5.00 pm doesn't get done. Friday night we've always let the kids stay up as late as they want; eat and do what they want. We do the same. The only rule on Friday night is that each of us can do anything we like as long as it's not work and we don't annoy anyone else. We do housework together on Saturday mornings.
5. We have our own interests away from each other.
6. If either of us don't want to do some task we hire someone else to do it. Life's too short to spend worrying about whether some drak job like mowing or window washing will get done. If the budget can't stand it then we both pitch in to get the job over and done with.
7. Confidence in the relationship also comes out of looking after each other in the most inelegant times (like mopping up while they're hurling into the porcelain for hours on end.).
8. Always leave the door ajar so that the other feels free to leave and assured of no resentment or meanness if they do. That way we both know we're staying because we want to rather than because there is no alternative. We are committed to each others happiness.
9. We pray together sometimes. Prayers of gratitude rather than a list of problems we want solved. We share a spiritual faith and I think that matters.

Thirty years on (we married young) and I can say that togetherness definitely improves with age.

Dear Hasbeen,

I've got a couple of questions...

1) Are you married?
2) How long?

Dear Houellie,

Sex and drugs?

Whatever works ... The latest issue of a woman's
magazine tells us that, "Regular nooky (that is, twice
a week) not only makes you look and feel younger but
can reduce your risk of life-threatening heart
conditions by 45 per cent compared to once-a-monthers..."
At least that's the claim of a research study published
in the "American Journal of Cardiology."

Dear Shadow Minister,

Get married at 80?

Yes, but what do you do in the meantime?

Dear Pelly,

I totally agree that marriage is a team effort.
I can also identify with being married to an
alcoholic - and staying in an unhappy marriage.
(Been there, done that), but for me things changed,
and improved - with occasional lapses - but that's
life.

Dear Sherkahn,

Boxing gloves is not something I'd have thought of -
but it sounds like a great way to get rid of anger
and frustrations - providing the other party agrees
to box.

Dear Peter Hume,

Thanks for your list. It makes a great deal
of sense.

And, to commitment and mutual satisfaction, I'd also add -
compromise, communication, respect, and a sense of humour.
As well as not fussing over unimportant things.

Dear Pericles,

I think it's important to have a connection with your
partner. To share similar interests, to be able to
talk things out. It isn't always easy to keep the
flame burning. People grow comfortable with each other,
or they become creatures of habit. And they aren't
always in tune with their partners. Sometimes when you've
been in a relationship for a while, you get bogged down
with a lot of negativity and dullness, and you get
tired of dealing with all that stuff.

I think it's important as you pointed out,
to talk about everything - especially if you're trying
to re-wire the substance of the relationship to suit
your own needs. That's a tough one for a lot of people,
because for some, there always has to be a chief.

Dear Pynch,

Your post actually brought tears to my eyes.

Thank You.

I think you're covered things pretty well -
and what a marvellous idea - your Friday
nights are. I'll have to try it at our house.
I also totally agree with the concept of leaving
the door ajar - and letting go - having your own
space - absolutely! The same applies to praying
together. (That brought a lump to my throat).

Some tips for a successful marriage
1. Base relationship on commitment instead of lust. Girls a man does not love you unless he is prepared to commit to you despite what he says.
2. Wives submit and respect husbands.
3. Husbands show servant leadership towards your wife.
4. Understand that the better a marriage the more secure the children will be so don't make your kids gods.
5. Celebrate successful marriages instead of buying magazines where womanizers and whores are held in high regard.
6. Avoid taking baggage into your marriage.
7. Worship the Author of marriage together.
8. Learn to forgive and forget.
9. If you fail seek God's mercy and healing.

Dear runner,

Thank You for your list.

I can't imagine your not having
a happy marriage because you're
prepared to work at it.

I'm happy for you.

Thanks for your kind words Foxy. I do feel very blessed to have had a good marriage for many years now. I do know that much of it is about grace as much as working at it. Many times I have seen one partner working very hard while the other is treating the hard working partner like an animal. Those who are blessed with a good marriage know their is nothing better. Those blessed with a bad marriage knows that there is not much worse.

'As well as not fussing over unimportant things.'

Oh Foxy. Importance is relative to each person. If things are important to one partner, they immediately become important to the other.
That's why shared values are so important. It makes for a lot less conflict.

But if you mean nagging, I'm right with you. Death by a thousand cuts it is.

'Your post actually brought tears to my eyes.'
Aunt Flo visiting at the moment?

My missus and I pray together, only it's at the pub. Trouble is she's praying for the All Blacks and I'm praying for the Wallabies.

Foxy, it's even worse than that, I've been there twice.

The first one was quite messy, but a thrilling ride. She was a ballet choreographer, & I an engineer. She went off studding at the Julliard School of music, New York, while was studding physics in the UK, we got together 5 times in almost 2 years, then I was studding thermo plastics in Michigan, while she was working on the east end.

You know, we sure did not get bored with each other. Getting together could be pretty wild, but it didn't work all that well, really.

The second one is not that much better. Six years later, I found her as paying crew, on a yacht sailing around the world. She jumped ship.

We spent years on my yacht, & a 40 Ft yacht is actually smaller than a 15 Ft caravan, inside. Our first daughter had sailed over 2,000 nautical miles, before she could walk.

36 years & 3 kids later she's becoming a bit of a gadabout. Always off playing with grandkids, when she should be home sweeping the floors, or painting the roof, or some such.

Still I guess that's my cross to carry, always being attracted to flighty women.

Dera runner,

You're absolutely spot on about the blessings
of a good marriage, and the curses of a bad one.
When you have the good fortune of the first -
you're truly blessed!

Dear Houellie,

Of course shared values are important, if not
crucial. I was talking about nagging though.
Some people don't know when to stop. We all
have the power to diminish. But I hate it
when naggers continually jab at what is viewed
as another's weakness. People need to ask
themselves - Is it your intention to tame
the beast (so to speak), Is that the prize?
Do you really want a partner who just says,
"Yes, dear," and falls asleep in the armchair
every night? Be careful what you wish for,
because you just might end up stripping away
the vitality, the sexual energy of the partner
you once thought of as your knight in shining
armour.

Dear Hasbeen,

What an interesting life you've lead.
And there's nothing wrong with "flighty"
women, for a "travelling" man.
Besides, it sound as if you've snared
yourself a beauty - especially if she
cares about your grandchildren - she's
a stayer! And you're a lucky man!
(in my humble opinion).

Dear Houellie,

I've just received an email that made me
think more about the point you raised
in your earlier post about the importance
of sex in a marriage. It's a joke the
friend sent that I thought you and others
may enjoy ... (a bit naughty, but funny):

"A TV Interview which was never aired in the
UK ...

You know there are so many TV Channels each
starved of new programs.

In a rural program for farmers a female TV
reporter seeking the main cause of Mad Cow Disease,
arranged for an interview with a farmer who may have
some theories on the matter.

The interview was as follows:

The lady reporter:
"I am here to collect information on the possible
sources of Mad Cow Disease. Can you offer any
reason for this disease?"

The farmer stared at the reporter and said,
"Do you know that a bull mounts a cow once a year?"

Reporter (obviously embarrassed)
"Well, sir, that's a new piece of information but what's
the relation between this phenomenon and Mad Cow
Disease?"

Farmer:
"And, madam, do you know that we milk a cow twice
a day?"

Reporter:
"Sir, this is really valuable information but what
about getting to the point?"

Farmer:
"I am getting to the point, madam.
Just imagine, if I was playing with your tits twice
a day...and only screwing you once a year wouldn't
you get mad?"

The program was never aired.

Just had to comment - Peter Hume and Pynchme what poignant perceptions you presented.

Foxy
Your perseverance and efforts have obviously gone a long way in keeping your marriage together during difficult times. It is easy to runaway when things get tough and a testament to you and your husband for turning things around.

Life is not always easy but sometimes the wins are all the more enjoyed and treasured because of the challenges. If it was all too easy we would probably not understand just how special the good times are.

Some good points Runner; although disagree with the term 'if you fail [at or in marriage]? seek God's mercy.

There is no such thing as a 'failed' marriage for it is a wonderful learning curve and experience despite negatives, there are positives, which in turn we all learn tremendously from until the day we part on whatever the path may be. I do not regret my 18 year marriage and 20 years slaving for my husband and his family.

Now separated yet still slaving...........the only thing I need is God's strength not mercy Runner.

I know this is a fairly boring response and it may well seem like I haven't given due consideration to your question Foxy, but I don't see making a marriage work for a life time as anything especially out of the ordinary.

My wife and I were highschool sweethearts and we are approaching the 'been together twice as long as we had been apart' milestone. But there were a number of others in our year at school who can claim the same.

Although my wife and I both come from very large families as yet there has been little inclination of divorce in any of our siblings. Other friends gained through uni who married early are all together.

One of those couples has a markedly autistic son and have been through so much. We are in awe of their capacity to survive as a married couple, often feeling we wouldn't have been up to the task.

So I'm going to offer something rather simplistic and even trite but perhaps there is some merit in being around people don't split up.

There are certainly personal things we do to enrich our relationship but it is rarely a conscious effort, rather they tend to just happen. However I'm not sure without them we would be at any greater risk of splitting.

Perhaps there is part of me that doesn't want to analyse our relationship in any intellectual manner because why pick at something if it is working.

We do shake our heads sometimes in mild amusement that we are still together but I rather not have to imagine life any other way.

So no real words of wisdom here just gratefulness.

Thanks Pelican and Foxy.

I've enjoyed reading all of the posts in this thread too.

Houellebecq: <"They'll also see what fun the CSA seems to be.">

Here's an older female comedian's opinion on things that hold a marriage together:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H4RCpUjcXc&feature=related

pynch

Dear Pelly,

I'm grateful for your understanding and
perception. Relationships, even ones as
happy as ours, often hit insurmountable
problems. It's easy to point the finger,
to blame the other person. Sometimes we're
right to do so. But that's too simple. I
remember what my father once said to me:
whenever you point a finger, there's three
fingers pointing back at you.

It's important as you said to remember the good
things, the happy memories that fill your heart.
Then you can turn things around.
Divorce isn't something anyone did in my family.
So, ours is still a work in progress -
I constantly ask myself what
can I do to make things better. To make things
work. I'm not perfect, but I try to take responsibility
and not repeat my mistakes. Still, life is a learning
curve - isn't it?

Dear we are unique,

You sound so positive and strong.
I admire your take on things.
To me it doesn't sound as if things have
become unraveled. It sounds like you've
got everything under control.

Dear csteele,

Thank You for such an honest and moving response.
And you're really fortunate to be blessed with
a happy marriage. Many of our friends
are either divorced or separated. Many believe that
they are doomed to live lives as single parents.
They often wonder what went wrong.

I consider myself one of the lucky ones. I didn't
think that I'd ever meet someone who'd be prepared to
take me on, with all my baggage. But I was wrong.
I found a man who was capable of loving fully,
with all his heart. My husband's honesty, devotion,
and unconditional love bound us together in a way
that has survived to this day.

I too am grateful for that.

Dear Pynch,

You always provide just the right touch!
Thanks - loved it!

I think steele is right.

It seems to me that people who stay married are the ones where both partners honestly and seriously were committed to it in the first place. From my observations, it's about how likely one is to choose to quit once things get too hard. I know this sounds arrogant, but I do get the impression people who divorce just weren't as committed in the first place.

Some of these people who are more committed no doubt would have led much happier lives if they were more flexible and adaptable to the changing reality of the marriage and got out. I said in my earlier post my partner and I are in agreement that it's ok for either of us to lean on the other in an unfair way for up to a year, then it's time to take responsibility for the happiness of the marriage no matter what personal stuff you're struggling with. Get your sh1t together man! But I still think to a large degree a divorce is a permanent solution to a temporary problem if both parties are committed to work on it.

Maybe it's just I have 100% faith in my partner's ability to communicate what she wants, compromise if necessary, and that she values the relationship and the work put in by both of us thus far, the stability of the children, and is worldly enough to recognise the grass isn't always greener over there. Like me. Shared values. It must be hard when one partner doesn't value these things.

When people break up they must be convinced that the partner they're with just hasn't got the ability or the will to allow them a happy life any more. That must be devastating when all those years invested in a relationship amounts to nothing.

Dear Houellie,

I agree. In order to make a partnership work -
you both have to be committed to making it work,
and shared values are also important.

We're mere mortals, we're not perfect, we all make
mistakes. In order to move forward, we need to
forgive ourselves. I also try to put myself in the
other person's shoes, so I can feel what they're
feeling, not just what I'm feeling.

I think the key to all this is that one person may
do all they can to keep their relationship as healthy
as it can be, but it's not enough. No matter how
healthy you become, as you pointed out, your partner
has to be working alongside you. If they aren't,
then it won't work. And as you said - the relationship
ends up failing.

I'm happy that you've found your soul mate!

Everyone has a different formula for a long relationship and if it works for you, Great. Who am I to suggest how anyone else should live.
I divorced some years ago because we both changed in different ways. We both wanted different things and so went our separate ways. It was sad of course but we were both determined the split would be without any acrimony and we are still good friends although she has now married a more suitable person. There followed a 5 year involvement that was both outrageous and memorable, but broke up as she wanted further kids. Now I have a relationship that has lasted 22 years and I put this down to the fact that we don't live together. She just comes at the weekend for 3 days and leaves on Monday. It is quite surprising how many of our friends say "How do you manage that ? I wish I could"

I have never subscribed to "opposites attract" and while I encourage my partner to have other interests, the essentials like sex, politics and religion should be jointly held. It is interesting to note that all three women have met and get along well together, although they give me a hard time when they gang up on me over my failings !

Message to Foxy......

Loved the joke about the farmer !

Dear snake,

As you said, whatever works...

I've got a brother who lives in Byron Bay - and
he's always been a bit of a "free spirit."
The thing that my mother could never
understand was - my brother lived with his current
wife, his current girlfriend, and his ex-wife, all
under the same roof. And they got on very well
together.

We never questioned his life-style. However, he has
mellowed over the years. He still sees his ex-wife,
but he only lives with his current wife at present.

He has one son and an adopted daughter that he's
raised. Both children are sensitive, decent, caring
human beings.

My brother's happy and so is his wife.
Whatever they're doing - it works for them.

See Foxy,

Sex and drugs man!

Those Hippies were onto something.

I like it how you accept him for who he is.
But I find sometimes people will accept behaviour from a family member they would be tut tutting about if they weren't close to the person.

Then again I'd rather that than the family that disowns one of their own due to bad behaviour. I've never understood that.

Whenever I see a murderer or someone who's done something really bad on TV, I always feel for their family as well as the family of the victim of course. Not fashionable to care, but it must be really hard when your child is a murderer.

Dear Foxy,

You say “you're really fortunate to be blessed with a happy marriage” and I should say thank you for your kind thoughts however I'm not sure they are deserved for two reasons.

The first is I find it hard to think of us in terms of a marriage keeping in mind it took me ten years to the day to propose. We always miss our wedding anniversary and tend to celebrate instead the day we met, or rather the night, and as that was Easter Saturday it helps keep it in the memory.

Secondly we have our ups and downs like any other couple so happy doesn't always fit either.

I do on the other hand feel fortunate to be blessed with a 'strong relationship' and some of the unhappy times we have been through has added texture and strength to it.

I recall making, in our early years and in a very rational manner, the decision to be totally monogamous. I led a fairly wild life through university thoroughly enjoying the platonic company of other women and have a reasonable notion of what I have missed, but that resolve was never really tested. I was always cognisant of what a truly precious gift trust really was. Any temptations always felt well short of the price I knew I would pay.

But all this was done outside of the institution of marriage.

So why get married?

Is it a manufacturing of a deeper commitment to each other? I'm not sure that can be done. If we expect marriage or children to elevate our feelings toward our partner I see such thinking as fraught.

Is it a way of having others, from relations to society as a whole, invest in your relationship? Possibly.

I know why I did it and those reasons possibly don't match my partner's. I suspect though that our waiting period may have assisted in getting the foundations right first thus allowing us to survive marriage.

Maybe a follow up question to yours is what are the barriers to someone having a lifelong relationship?

The best way to make a marriage last a lifetime, is to live to your means.

Dear snake,

What a relief to hear that someone liked
my farmer joke. I thought it was appropriate
and funny, but because I didn't get any sort of
a response, I thought perhaps I'd goofed.
Anyway, your response is very re-assuring.
I can now relax.

Dear Houellie,

My brother and I have always been very close.
We were "latch key" kids. Our parents worked.
He's always been there for me, and I absolutely
adore him. He's taught me to have the courage to
follow my heart's intuition. As for dis-owning a family
member for wrong doing ... I couldn't possibly
ever do that.

Dear csteele,

I understand that some people desperately want to
get married. There is an innate part in some of us
that needs ritual and ceremony. I'm happy that I
did. To me it was essentially a beautiful
day. But it's not for everyone. Some people don't
hold that piece of paper, the marriage certificate,
all that important. What is important is to work at
the relationship. And I'm glad that you're blessed
with a strong one.

You mentioned barriers to a successful lifetime
relationship? One of the biggest is trying to
rewire a relationship to suit
your own needs. Trying to make your mate what you
want him or her to be, rather than rejoicing in
your differences. We all have the power to diminish.
And there's nothing more unpleasant than to see a
partner in a relationship being stripped of their
vitality. It's far better to respect a partner who
has their own excitement, passion, to honor their variety.
Than to constantly put them down.

On the other side of the coin,
the keys to maintaining a healthy relationship are -
respect, desire, forgiveness, and of course, love.

Dear Desmond,

Living within your means is a huge part of
maintaining a lifetime relationship.

I admit that we haven't always been able
to do that - however, we've always consulted
each other and both managed to work - paying
off the debts.

Foxy, you might be interested to know that this lady I've had 3 kids with is a librarian.

I think it was probably 5 years as first childrens, & then research librarian, in a Sydney suburban library that sent her off to sail around the world.

From couples I've seen, I think the lucky ones are those who start early, together, & grow more together. By the time you are a bit older, you often have both erected a few walls, which can have sharp edges, requiring care to prevent causing pain.

It also helps to share memories. Some of my best are however solo. The sight of a huge tropical moon, rising out of a shimmering lagoon, on a still breathless night, is something not soon forgotten. Spectacular, & bright enough to read by, you find yourself whispering things like "wow, get a load of that", although there is no one with many miles to show it to.

I know my lady would have loved to see more of these things, but there is only so much time, & she wanted kids more. There's more than a few memories of them, too.

One of my favourites is of her rowing the small dingy in from the yacht, with our daughter, aged about 18 months, clinging to her neck. This limpit like thing made bigger by a life jacket, was stopping her getting a full stroke of the oars, making it hard to stem the tide.

She arived puffed, but happy at the beach, but always made sure the girl was safely settled before starting out, from then on.

Dear Hasbeen,

Your lady's a librarian?

So am I!

You've got excellent taste! :-)

A huge tropical moon rising out of a simmering
lagoon - sounds breath-taking. And I can imagine
that's a memory that will last a lifetime.
I've never seen a tropical full moon. It must be
an awesome sight.

I remember when our ship first docked at Hilo on Hawaii
Island. It was during the day however.
The beauty was totally unlike anything I'd ever
seen. Its harbour, a crescent-shaped bay, the tropical
forests surrounding the city and the volcanoes of Mauna
Loa and Mauna Kea rising up behind Hilo added to the unique
beauty. What got to me was the deep-blue water, the
brilliantly coloured flowers, the greeness of everything.
I thought I was in Paradise. It was only a short
stop-over - and we've never gone back. Perhaps one day
we will and I'll get to see a full tropical moon...

Your wife sounds like an incredible lady.
The love and pride that you express for her and your
family comes across so clearly in your posts.
I think that's wonderful.
And I Thank You for sharing so much on this thread.

*and you decided that we should give up our city apartment and go and live somewhere back of Nimbin and grow weed, I might have cause for concern too.*

ROFL Pericles, I've never had a desire to grow weed, but I
certainly admit to changing direction in life.

I married my childhood sweetheart and I had her best years :)

But yup, from wearing suits and ties every day, one day I decided that
was not for me. She followed me to the Australian outback, but
country life was not for her. She put up with country life, but to
be happy she needed her shopping centres, manicures and pedicures
and all the rest. Now if a woman is not happy she complains and if
she complains too much, it becomes a drag. So it was time to face
reality, for both of us, for we clearly wanted different things in
life.

So we split on extremely amicable terms, which is easier said then
done. The net result was that it dragged on for years and years,
even though we were meant to have split.

Some things I have learned:

Why does a marriage have to last a lifetime? Life is a journey to
be enjoyed and appreciated every day. If a relationship is fundamentally flawed, why try to force it? Too many have died,
miserable for years, because they tried to force a situation, due
to expectations of others.

People change and grow over time, often at different speeds and
in different directions. My decisions made at 18, are quite different
to those that I would make today.

To be soulmates, one really has to be tuned to the same mental
frequency. If she's on 92am and you are on 96fm, you will talk
past each other.

If people want different things from life, no matter how cute she
was, you have a fundamental problem.

Base your relationship on trust, honesty and communication, without
them you are stuffed.

tbc

Half of all marriages land up in the divorce courts, which is a messy
business alot of the time. Of the half that are left, about half
are really happy, the other half stay together due to habit,
kids, money, fear of the unknown etc. So the odds of a really
happy marriage are less then 1-4, not very good odds.

Last point, if you do happen to find your soulmate, who wants the
same things in life and is on the same mental frequency, count
yourself extremely lucky, for its rare indeed in the real world.

Yabby something you just posted rekindled memories of a couple of things I read that are really important.

"Why does a marriage have to last a lifetime?"

Yes. I was reading a book on family configurations over time (historical to present) and the author made a good point - that when marriage was held up as the ideal state (as I believe it is), the average lifespan was about half what it is now and the odds of dying young and dying rather than being invalided were very high. As a result, fewer people divorced but a greater number of marriages were terminated due to mortality. That is, there were more widowed people about.

The author is of the opinion that divorce serves a functional purpose in terminating unions when people have grown (as in aged) beyond the gains of being together.

Btw - another stats report from the US that I read a long time ago claimed that the 50% of marriages end in divorce thing is a fallacy, in that there is always a pool of intact marriages, but the size of the pool increases at less than the full rate of new marriages. New couples might divorce at 1 year or 2, 4 or 10 or something. For example, say there are 1 million wedded couples and another 100,000 marry in a given year. Maybe 10,000 will divorce; then another year another 10,000 and so on. The pool is increasing nevertheless and the actual divorce rate is not a flat rate of 50% of marriages. (I just made up those figures; have no idea what the real ones are). It's just another slant on it all, but tends to bear out what you (and others) have said.

Con't:

Sorry, I didn't explain this well.

"... the actual divorce rate is not a flat rate of 50% of marriages."

Should have said, "... the actual divorce rate is not a flat rate of 50% of ALL marriages, but it might be close to 50% of new marriages over some span of time beyond one year."

There is still the pool of longstanding unions.

"Adding a small fraction for marriage breakdowns which are never formalised by divorce, we can estimate that about 43 per cent of marriages end in separation within 30 years of the marriage."

http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/pubs/fm1/fm35facts.html

Dear Yabby,

You asked, why does a marriage have to last
a lifetime?

It doesn't.

Marriage isn't compulsory of course, and it is
likely to occur less frequently in the future,
but it's a fair bet people will continue to
fall in love and try to find harmony together
just as they always have.

It's about people taking care of themselves by
finding what they need to nurture their souls,
to give life meaning. This might be with another
person, in which case it will help satisfy their
need for intimacy and acceptance (to know and be
known) as well as companionship, sexual fulfilment,
warmth and affection.

If its not with one significant other, they might find
it with a group of friends, in their work, in caring
for others, in listening to or playing music, creating
works of art or enjoying sport...

We're all different with different wants, needs, desires.

Dear Pynch,

Our society is increasingly tolerating a variety of
alternative marriage and family styles. With our
economic and cultural diversity, combined with a
highly developed sense of individualism - in this
environment people tend to make decisions about
marriage, divorce, abortion, child-rearing, and the
like in terms of what they, personally want rather than
in terms of traditional moralities, obligations to
kin, or the other impersonal pressures that previous
generations unquestioningly accepted.

Pursuing their own vision of self-fulfillment, or
responding to the social and economic predicament in which
they find themselves, many people are modifying marriage
and the family system to suit their individual needs.

However, the great majority of people do continue to marry,
and that's something that looks like it's here to stay.

Nearly all of us will love something or someone over
the course of our lives. It's hard to put into words,
it just is - something we feel, in our bodies, hearts
and souls rather than something we rationalise in our
minds.

I'd like to Thank everyone who contributed to this thread.
It's been a learning experience, and
an enjoyable one for me. Human beings have a huge capacity
for love in many forms, from the romantic passionate love
we might feel for a partner to the protective love for a
child or friend to a love of concepts, such as freedom of
knowledge, and things, such as a beautiful painting or
treasured object. All of these enrich us.

May all of you continue to be enriched in your lives ...

Simple - make marriage failure expensive for BOTH parents.

The divorce system creates a winner and losers. The mother usually gets the kids, and if you get the kids, you get everything!

Everything? You get the kids, and hence you get the bulk of the family assets (not 50-50 as many assume) and you get about 50% of your husbands after-tax income in 'child'-support, and you get to keep your ex-husband on a leash... because you decide if he can see his kids! The divorce court has no method of ensuring that it's custody orders are obeyed... so mothers can simply refuse to open the door when dad comes for a court-ordered visit.

Any wonder why 70% of divorces are initiated by the mother? She gets to keep everything, and looses nothing.

A presumption of EQUAL TIME, where kids would be shared equally between both parents new homes, has been shown to reduce divorce rates. In the US, divorce law is a state matter and as laws change in various states, so does the divorce rate. More shared parenting, less divorce.

But this doesn't help you or me... that's about the law.

What can I do so save MY marriage?

Pre-Nup!
Pre-Nup!
Pre-Nup!

Punish BOTH parents for divorcing
Pre-nup!
Pre-Nup!
Pre-nup
Pre-Nup!

In Australia these are called 'binding financial agreements' and any couple can draft one, at any time.

Use a suburban lawer and draft a simple pre-nup which says
1: What is mine today, stays mine. What is yours today, stays yours.
2: What we build up together gets split in THIRDS!

THIRDS?!?
Yep, one third for me, one third for you and one-third locked up until the youngest kid is 18.

This protects the kids!
This means that you usually will have to sell the house

This means that the parents BOTH lose two-thirds of the money/cars/house that they have when they are married.

Both parents get punished EQUALLY for divorcing, and that's fair.

More importantly, it's easy to agree on it. If she says "But a pre-nup means you don't love me" Simply reply that "Refusing a pre-nup means you don't love me"

It's about creating an incentive to protect the kids and make the marriage work.

A good grief response to PTP.

What a horrible reason to stay together and a terrible environment in which to raise children.

Prenups are fine but are no "incentive" to stay with someone despicable.

Your post and the attitude in which you deliver it is just sad.

Should really get back to work, but I couldn't resist this important question of yours Foxy . Well done for asking it !
Having been WELL tutored against using any religious or other jargon on OLO, it struck me that maybe a good way to summarize what we experience and observe with this , is that:

-long/good marriages have their focus OUTSIDE the partnership. Its certainly how i see it and I have really enjoyed 15 years of the tension that can destroy either party so easily .
I think many of the posts heresay the same thing , maybe in a different way.
If we assume that children too are one of those tensions that can tear , i think the same applies ; if they are taught just to "look after themselves" and their interests ( no genuine outside focus) then there can be very little to hold us together. Or if the role of a woman is "the only one that matters in nurture" ( her idea) then men can be forced out ( nurture is bigger than the sum of the parts)
The other very interesting question, because we are all so different is how can we can maintain a productive attitude to our differences ?( it does help to be compatible but good marriages partners aren't passive)see aggression - we need to find ways to share our passions . More than the 5 min a day kind mate !

- long/good marriages KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH AGGRESSION . The best way to see aggression is as natural instinct that must not be seen as morally deterministic (http://knowlove.blogspot.com )AGGR can go wrong, but can also be constructive( =ve and -ve ) Denying its +ve place or not dealing with it, is a way to depression / false guilt/avoidance/woosiness. Many see it in our society as only negative( incl Freud who didn't talk about it till after the war !)-irrational unmorality. Mums in particular ,need to yell sometimes !( and dads too!
I have one more thing to say - next post

Dear partTime Parent,

Your advice I'm guessing comes from experience.
And is a very sad reflection of the traumatic
experience that it can be for all concerned.

The picture that you describe is bleak.

Children inevitably suffer through the divorce of
their parents - particularly during the first year
or two - however many people believe that it may be
even more emotionally disturbing for them to remain
in a home where the marriage is deeply unhappy.

Emotionally, both divorcing parents may be in for
a difficult time. Most of our social life is tailored
to the needs of couples, and divorced partners may
experience great loneliness, isolation, and feelings
of inadequacy. Divorce ruptures one's personal universe;
it's no coincidence that men are much more likely to be
fired from their jobs after divorce, nor that the death
rate for divorced people is significantly higher than that
for married people at all age levels.

I agree that a pre-nup may help alleviate some of the
financial worries of a divorce. But I don't think that it
would encourage them to stay in an unhappy marriage.

"Love and marriage," as the old song tells us,
"go together like a horse and carriage,"
this is the compelling assumption in our society
that everyone will fall in love, will marry, will have
children, and will have an emotionally satisfying lifetime
relationship with the chosen partner. However, what we're
learning is that a great many, perhaps even the majority,
find that married life falls well below their expectations.

Dear Pynch,

I agree - staying in an unhappy marriage
is more emotionally disturbing for all
concerned.

Dear H,

Knowing how to handle aggression would help
any relationship, as would having an outside
interest. I definitely agree. The philosopher
Kahlil Gibran once wrote about marriage:
"Stand together, yet not too near together.
For the pillars of the temple stand apart."
That's a tough one though for a lot of people
to buy because, for some, there always has to
be a chief.

According to recent surveys the social characteristics
of divorce-prone partners have been well established.
Divorces are especially common among urban couples,
among those who marry very young, among those who marry
after only short or shallow acquaintance, and among those
whose relatives and friends disapprove of the marriage.

In general, the people who are most likely to get divorced
are those who, statistically, would be considered the
least likely to marry. And the greater the wife's
ability to support herself, the more likely she is to
leave an unhappy marriage. Partners who have been
married before are supposedly more likely to become
involved in subsequent divorce. Most divorces we're told,
take place within the first few years of marriage, half
within the first seven years - and the longer a marriage
has lasted, the less likely it is to end in divorce.

But as we all know - there are exceptions to every rule.
Just as there are many causes for the collapse of
marriages, as well as the reasons for their success.

Foxy: Kahlil Gibran once wrote about marriage:
"Stand together, yet not too near together.
For the pillars of the temple stand apart."

I love that - thanks Foxy!

Well there is always the old amusing saying that you should
not let marriage intefere with your sex life :)

.

Dear Pynch,

I'm glad you liked the quote.
It's one of my favourites.

Dear Yabby,

In the days when
intercourse was likely to lead to pregnancy, there
was a strong practical incentive for sex to be
restricted to marital partners, as our society at
that time made little provision for the proper care
of children born to unmarried mothers.
Today, of course things have changed and sexual
experience gives the partners a standard by which to
measure the performance of their spouses - an
opportunity that the partners in a traditional virgin
marriage did not have - and the spouses may be found
wanting.

Changing sexual norms inevitably threaten a system based
on the assumption that the partners will have an
exclusive and mutually gratifying sexual relationship.

cont'd ...

Dear Yabby,

You may enjoy this:

One day Gerhard and Johann are talking about
holidays. Gerhard says, "I think I am just
about ready to book my winter holidays again,
but I'm going to do it differently this time.
In the past, I have always taken your advice
about where to go. Three years ago you said
go to the Greek Islands. I went to the Greek
Islands and my wife Brigitt got pregnant. Then
two years ago, you told me to go to Bermuda
and Brigitt got pregnant again. Last year you
suggested the Canary Isles and, as you know,
Brigitt got pregnant yet again.

Johann asks, "So what are you going to do different
this year Gerhard?"

"This year," replies Gerhard, "I'm taking Brigitt
with me!"

Foxy

One could comment fairly by saying if you have to 'make' your marriage work then you're missing the point of a marriage in modern terms.
An arranged marriage of yesteryear may clearly needed to be worked at meaning that the individuals, usually the woman had to be submissive.
either to the 'system' or the male, arguable the same thing.

In the modern sense a marriage is merely the formalization of a relationship, nothing more and certainly nothing less.

Therefore the question should be about a maintenance of the relationship, a subtle but significant differentiation.

Clearly a relationship takes two, both people need to accept the other *as they are* and rather than force adjustments for or on the other person (this is often temporary and fraught with misunderstanding). As most people are motivated most by their own interests it is imperative to believe that life with the other person is in ones *own* interests.

If one internalizes/fully accepts this way of thought then any accommodation one makes to maintain the relationship has the best motives possible. Ultimately the distinction between why some action was taken becomes irrelevant. By Contrast, going to a counselor and being told "You don't", "you should" may engender some temporary change but under stress it tends to reassert it's self as "I did this/that for you" recriminations etc.

Successful marriages all seem to have that fundamental acceptance of what is not well he/she will change. Change is inevitable but will it be consistent with your secret agenda.
My view is either make the fundamental acceptance in your mind or label everything and have plastic(not breakable,non lethal) plates.

This wasn't what you wanted but I am me and what else would you expect but an over though answer?

Dear Examinator,

When I asked, "How do you make a marriage work
for a lifetime?" Perhaps I should have put it
in better terms. As the term "work" seems to
have conjoured up for you a negative picture.
Whereas that was not my intention at all.
I meant "work," as something that was part of
a natural process to keep the flame burning,
so to speak. And, both partners have to be
willing to do it.

The key to a successful relationship is -
that one person may do
all they can to keep that relationship as healthy as it
can be, but it isn't enough. No matter how healthy you
become, your partner has to be working alongside you.
If they aren't, then it's like one hand clapping. It has
to meet the other hand to make the sound of applause.

The most successful couples aren't the ones who don't
argue; they're the ones who argue well. Conflict is
part of the package. Lust and attraction don't last.
What I'm talking about is that sense of contentment,
of sharing, of oneness with another human being.
I certainly am not suggesting that there isn't any
conflict and pain along the way. But anyone
in a successful relationship will know
how nourishing it is and that it exists alongside a whole
range of emotions - even flashes of acute rage.

It can take many years to achieve, and it
seems to flow parallel to the journey of self love.
There's a fair amount of cynicism about love and
marriage around, especially with divorce skyrocketing
and so many children living in single-parent households.
But if almost half of all marriages break up, that means
more than half survive. What's more, the majority of
people who divorce tend to marry again, so no doubt many
eventually find that deeper love with someone new.

cont'd ...

Dear Examinator,

By the way ...

Don't apologise for your "over thought" responses,
as you put it. You always try to put yourself in
the other person's shoes, so that you can feel
what they're feeling, not just what you're
feeling. That is a very unique quality to have,
and an extremely endearing one. :-)

Dear Foxy,
When I was young I heard this advice given at a wedding. A radio announcer was interviewing a couple who had been married 65 years and the husband told this story; after the wedding he and his new bride where traveling home in his sulky when the horse stumbled and he said
"that's once". The horse stumbled again and he said"that's twice". The horse again stumbled so he took out his rifle and shot and killed the horse. He then told the announcer that in 65 years of marriage he had never had to raise his voice because his wife had never stumbled.
My wife and I have been married for 30 years and life has not always been a bed of roses but marriage breakup is not an option. It takes 2 to tango and through thick and thin love has been the glue that binds us together. Love is not a feeling but a decision and if feelings run cold reafirm your decision and feelings come into line. as in everything in life you get out what you put in. There is no room for self if a marriage is to succeed and prosper, as my dad taught me if a job is worth doing it is worth doing properly for if you want the best don't give your second best. The correct order in life is God first then your partner then children then work then your ministery to others. If you get that order wrong the marriage suffers and you pay the price. Get knowledge, a good book to read is Men come from mars and women come from venus by John Gray.
Richie 10

All the old married couples I see in their homes in the community setting say that effective communication is the number one consideration if a marriage is to work.

If you become a poor communicator or stop communicating with your spouse, then the marriage is in trouble.

I have been married 22 years, and we have had our ups and downs, as any marriage does. I don't agree with Foxy when she says that lust and attraction don't last.

As we get older we may not be as sexually active as before, but I believe we still need to be attracted to our spouses to want to live with them

Dear Richie 10,

My goodness, I'm certainly glad that
your wife never stumbled, would you
have shot her? :-)

Seriously, Richie, I agree that it's important
for both partners to be committed to the
relationship. And I'm happy that you have a
strong marriage as a result.

Dear Suze,

When I said that lust and attraction don't
last - I was referring to that first phase -
of relationships - where there are no flaws -
and everything is perfect. Where we see what
we want to see.

It's only later that the blinkers come off -
What happens is a mature
kind of love develops where people can ideally hold
onto themselves. This is a love of others for who
they are, even when they're angry or vulnerable,
rather than for some idea of how they might enhance
one's life. This generous kind of love is possible
when individuals can be authentic rather than what
some marital therapists call, "their pseudo selves,"
trying to impress or please others and denying their
real feelings and fears.

The bottom line is our relationships will only be as
satisfactory as we are in ourselves.

It is how differences are resolved that is important for the long term.

Anyone who thinks that his/her partner's view is somehow invalid, is unlikely to remain married. That doesn't mean that all decisions must be compromises.

Dear Cornflower,

I totally agree.

I feel that the role of conflict and resolution
can make a relationship stronger. As I wrote
previously, the most successful couples aren't
the ones who don't argue; they're the ones who
can argue well.

'they're the ones who can argue well.'

Yes, no harm in 'unfair' solutions or being a bit too enthusiastic for one's point of view, as long as both respect each other's view as valid and at the end they can look each other in the eye.

I would add that each should retain some areas of privacy (not secrecy, there is a difference in intent) and independence, especially financial independence, but that is for me and my partner, not necessarily others. Also, I believe that commitment has to be earned and renewed on a daily basis, which is why a cuppa or wine together at around sunset is a good idea. Ritual can be done during meal preparation, doesn't always have to be a sit down affair. Again, that is my household not necessarily others.

Dear Cornflower,

A cuppa or a glass of wine around sunset
sounds wonderful. It can produce perhaps
the most elegant of human feelings, that is -
of sharing of oneness with another human being...

Once again - Thanks to everyone who
contributed to this thread.

Before I go I'd like to leave you with
one of my favourite poems by Mark Twain -
which we used for my niece's wedding:

" I cannot promise you a life of sunshine;
I cannot promise riches, wealth or gold;
I cannot promise you an easy pathway
That leads away from change or growing old.

But I can promise all my heart's devotion
A smile to chase away your tears of sorrow;
A love that's ever true and ever growing;
A hand to hold in yours through each tomorrow."

Be kind to each other!