from the Gershwin song:

It ain't necessarily so
It ain't necessarily so
The t'ings dat yo' li'ble
To read in de Bible,
It ain't necessarily so.

Li'l David was small, but oh my !
Li'l David was small, but oh my !
He fought Big Goliath
Who lay down an' dieth !
Li'l David was small, but oh my !

Wadoo, zim bam boddle-oo,
Hoodle ah da wa da,
Scatty wah !
Oh yeah !...

Oh Jonah, he lived in de whale,
Oh Jonah, he lived in de whale,
Fo' he made his home in
Dat fish's abdomen.
Oh Jonah, he lived in de whale.

Li'l Moses was found in a stream.
Li'l Moses was found in a stream.
He floated on water
Till Ol' Pharaoh's daughter,
She fished him, she said, from dat stream.

Wadoo ...

Well, it ain't necessarily so
Well, it ain't necessarily so
Dey tells all you chillun
De debble's a villun,
But it ain't necessarily so !

To get into Hebben
Don' snap for a sebben !
Live clean ! Don' have no fault !
Oh, I takes dat gospel
Whenever it's pos'ble,
But wid a grain of salt.

Methus'lah lived nine hundred years,
Methus'lah lived nine hundred years,
But who calls dat livin'
When no gal will give in
To no man what's nine hundred years ?

I'm preachin' dis sermon to show,
It ain't nece-ain't nece
Ain't nece-ain't nece
Ain't necessarily ... so !

My words to Five Foot Two, Eyes Of Blue, I sang it on 4zzz in Brisbane

The Imitation of Christ

Six feet two, eyes of blue
Jesus Christ, he was a Jew
Has anybody seen my lord?

Big hooked nose, There he goes
Preaching so that everyone knows
Has anybody seen my lord?

Speared by a Roman
In the abdomen
Blood gushing out

Rose from the dead
So it is said
People believe without a doubt

Jesus died, still a Jew
He's a Jew so why aren't you?
Has anybody seen my lord?

Pelican you ask
'As for greed, are you uncomfortable with the fact that there are people who are not greedy who do not believe in God. I am not sure of your meaning.'

I am yet to meet someone without the adamic nature Pelican, so could you please inform me of those who I have or should meet that would make me uncomfortable? All have sinned with only One exception.

You seem to deliberately misrepresenting me. You are either being deceitful or naive. The only righteousness I have ever claimed comes from Christ not myself.

Runner < "I am yet to meet someone without the adamic nature Pelican, so could you please inform me of those who I have or should meet that would make me uncomfortable? All have sinned with only One exception."

Only One who hasn't sinned aye Runner? How many babies in this world could possibly have sinned Runner? You must feel very humble in your own presence if you can presume to tell anyone else at all who has, or has not, sinned.

What of all those poor deluded souls that lived in the thousands of years before Jesus walked the earth and a group of men wrote what they thought he said in a book 2000 years ago?

Surely without the bible to guide them, they must all be burning in the fires of hell as we speak? Hell must be very full indeed!

david f,
I do not think “the Bible ... equates ‘lusting in one’s heart’ with actually doing something wrong”. The closest I could get was “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Mat 5:28). There is an obvious difference - not equation - involved here between “doing something wrong” and “doing something wrong in your heart” i.e. in your thoughts. The Church has always interpreted this passage in the sense that God will judge you for both, although humans (courts) can judge you only for your actions since they cannot know your thoughts.

“Lust” in my dictionary can mean both “very strong sexual desire” and “a passionate desire for something”, e.g. power. If restricted to sexual desire I agree the Church has been neurotic about it, however I do not think it is a bad thing to remind people that they should not even desire what when acted upon is wrong, even evil. Obviously, wishing another Holocaust is not as bad as acting upon that wish, nevertheless it is right to remind people that also the wish is amoral.

If insistence on a moral code - that is not reducible to e.g. the criminal code of law of a given country - you call control, so be it. (Of course, like everything else, this insistence can be - and was - abused). Even atheists speak of a moral code and conscience (that comes also with feelings of guilt) acquired through evolution and written into our genes. Catholics call it “natural moral law” underlying whatever else Jesus - or the Church - might have added to it.

Whatever the personal reasons for your criticism, accusations and condemnation of Christian beliefs and Christianity, I have always benefited from your posts - even if I disagree with most of your conclusions (that I see as non-sequiturs) - because of the clarity in which you present your views. They make also a Christian think, and thus acquire a more rational and realistic background for his/her beliefs.

Philo wrote: “[humility] means caring for a weaker person, of esteeming others achievements and serving others in an endeavour to lift their status.”

Not really.

Humility means to be humble. It’s a real stretch of the definition of humility to claim that it says anything about caring for weaker people or serving others.

The universe consists of billions of galaxies, and to think that it was all placed here for us not only lacks humility, but is the ultimate expression of arrogance.

I like Runner’s ‘Adamic nature’ theory though (ie. That we’re all flawed beings). Such rock solid proof of the Christian God and the Genesis story.

Because, if God didn’t exist, then we’d all be perfect, wouldn’t we?

Seriously though, an omnipotent God, that creates life knowing that it’s going to fail, is ultimately responsible for those failures.

An omnipotent God, who creates life with desires and emotions that are supposedly “bad”, then punishes them for acting out on, or feeling those emotions is an evil God. And the ‘God-has-given-us-free-will’ argument is futile, because that’s exactly how everything would play-out if God did not exist.

An omnipotent God, who creates diseases and creatures that are dependent on our suffering such as the worm that can only survive by burying itself in eye balls, then allows it all to be inflicted upon his “beloved” creations, is ultimately responsible for those inflictions.

Since Davidf has become all poetic now, I feel this is an appropriate time to share a poem I heard recently. It goes a-little something like this...

Continued...

...Continued

Jesus loves the little zygotes
all the zygotes of the world.
Jesus loves them until they're born
then abandons them forlorn.
Jesus loves the little zygotes 'til they're born.

Jesus loves the little children
all the children of the world.
Jesus gives them heart defects
measles, mumps, and ring-wormed necks.
Jesus loves the little children of the world.

Jesus lets their parents beat them,
bruise their bodies black and blue.
Jesus gives them birth defects,
scurvy, ticks, and palette clefts.
Jesus loves the little children of the world.

Jesus gives the children cancer.
Earaches, lice, and scabies too.
Bowel obstructions, altered lips,
blighted brains and twisted hips.
Extra chromosomes to help them when they pray.

Hallelujah.

Jesus gives the children acne.
AIDS and leprosy galore.
Germs and worms of every kind.
Things to make the children blind.
But he cannot give them smallpox anymore.

Scientists and unbelievers
wiped the pox right off the earth.
Jesus still gives gifts to kids,
broken noses and burnt eyelids.
But he cannot give them smallpox anymore.

I think there’s something in that for all of us, don’t you?