I always handled ads by discussing them with the kids, from pre-school on, as they grew so did the depth of the discussion. This went a huge way towards destroying the ads effectiveness. I found that taking the kids seriously from that age on and talking everything through with them, whatever the subject, helped us all, me with them, and they with the world. They had clear boundaries, but knew absolutely they were loved, and at home what they thought and felt mattered, so by talking things like ads through I was able to help them learn to think clearly for themselves.

Snake

First thanks for teaching me a new word. contumely. Rude, contempt - maybe. Insolence - I hope so. Arrogance - no.

Sorry snake but your weaseling around the violence involved is a bit rich isnt it. Hitting anyone is always violence. It teaches children to become violent themselves when they want to solve an issue.

You said
"Hitting weak, defenseless kids is bloody abhorrent and anyone I hear of doing it will be reported as a child abuser" conveys a totally different picture than controlled corporal punishment administered with understanding by both parties.

So the children agree to be hit do they? What a crock. There is no "understanding" between children and their parents allowing violence. It is a relationship of utter powerlessness for the child and the adult makes ALL the rules.

No one knows for sure the reasons for current bad behavior by children and im not so sure it was any different in my day. I know my parents and their generation sure saw kids of the day as little scumbags. The same as their parents did I expect. I do know that you cannot connect the reduction of violent "discipline" of children with any type of current behavior. Repeat after me. Correlation does not equal causation. Like others have said tv, the media and imho advertising has a larger impact as does the selfishness and greed promoted by the capitalist system. No one cares so why is it surprising that kids grow up with no empathy and no conscience.

Max sorry but you are wrong. It IS violence. Education and protection are what parents do instead of hitting. If your kid is running out on roads, sucking on power points or otherwise endangering itself then it is you as parent that are responsible and in need of "discipline" as you should be ensuring they cant do such things. I bet they said the same about the reformers who got rid of all the things I mentioned in my first post. Was objecting to the lash or the wheel or the noose "idealistic, non-rational, PC bulldust"?

Raising a child can't be reduced to
a set of rules. Parents and their children
are unique. They have a special relationship,
which is different from any other relationship.
It can't be generalised.

The years before six are the most important in
establishing attitudes and habit patterns which
will last throughout life. The relationship established
with your child in their preschool years will
determine your relationship with them throughout
the rest of their life. For example, to prevent
a teenager from becoming a deviant juvenile, take the
time to establish a solid relationship of affection
and mutual respect when they're a pre-schooler.

We can learn many scientific facts about children, but
I found that if you don't have the 'feel of childhood,'
you won't guide your child wisely. You'll know the
words of parenting, but you'll lack the tune.
To get the feel of childhood -re-establish contact
with the child within yourself. That's the best single
guide to bringing up your own children.

Each of our children is a unique combination of genes.
They're also growing up in a unique position in your
family. Your children deserve to be treated with respect
of their uniqueness. I don't believe in trying to fit
them into some pre-conceived mold of what we as parents
think they should be. To me the most important thing
I can do for my child is to stand back and allow them to
actualize the unique and potential self which is unfplding
within them.

For that to occur, children need to grow up in a stable
family, one governed by adults. Children need strong
leaders running the government of their family, they need
strong, loving parents who will guide them, but not
coerce or tyrannize them.

In guiding the behaviour of your children it's important
that you make a distinction between internal feelings
and outward actions. It's reasonable to expect children
to learn to conttrol their outward actions according to
their age and stage of development. It's not reasonable to
expect a child to control their feelings, for thoughts
and feelings come into the mind unbidden.

cont'd.

Mikk,

Clearly I agree in essence with your view however I do have considerable reservations with the apparent B/W context of CP as you seem to express it.

Specifically one could demonstrate that any form of violence in counter productive. The corollary to that must be “What constitutes violence” in which case I would suggest yelling impatience, losses of 'cool' et al are simply forms of violence. These displays may be overt or far more subtle. Either way they too can have impact. I learned early not to underestimate the sponge like nature of 'our' offsprungs.
Hence my emphasis on the differences between 'Do as I do' and 'Do as I say not as I do'.

All this means We can only TRY to provide the child with apposite roles.
Notwithstanding this we are all human with short comings and it is unrealistic to be absolute about anything so individual.

As a crisis intervention counselor I dealt with many instances where extremes and or absolutes at either end were partially contributive to long standing issues.
Some children find it harder to deal with the the verbal reasoning.
e.g. Number 2 son suffers from Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD). It can be objectively demonstrated that although his I Q is high average he mentally processes about 65/70% of lengthy or complex verbal instructions and fills in the blanks, often incorrectly. Calm rational correction with him has never worked. He needs other strategies. He needs visual cues at a very early age smack on the hand worked.

My caution is this "The only absolute it that there are no absolutes and context matters."

cont'd

Although, as a parent you assume responsibility
for teaching your child to control their actions,
its equally important to allow them the freedom to
express their feelings. I also believe that wisely
chosen toys and books add to a child's stimulation
and intellectual development. The intellectual
development that is given particularly in the first
five years of life is of crucial importance for
the optimal development of their intelligence.

Stimulating their language development, teaching
them to become interested in words, to love books,
play games which teach them to think logically
all of these are part and parcel of the rich
intellectual heritage you can give your children
by the time they're six years old.

New parents have a great deal to learn about the
art of parenting - and to do a really good job
it's essential to know quite a bit about the
way children grow. I read everything I could find
on the subject. And, as I mentioned in my earlier
post - I got to love and trust Dr Fitzhugh Dodson's
book, "How to Parent." From which I have quoted quite
freely in my posts on this thread. His approach worked
for me.

Evening RStuart, I am very controlling and I have often had 6 kids under five at a time so not letting things get chaotic is important for individual safety and my own personal sanity.

Tourette’s kid… they are a whole different ball game; same with any special needs kid.

You aren’t talking discipline as such you are talking punishment/consequences when they are not displaying self discipline?

Kids often absentmindedly do stuff, break stuff etc and you just call out to them like “wake up boy”. Something has been picked to bits or broken you mention that it wasn’t cool.

The other is simple, don’t be irrational. Tell them if you have a headache and to expect a gumpy person for a bit. Communicate lots, check how they’re doing internally as well.

You know the worse thing I do? I am consistently nice to them, I am very aware that I do not allow them to build any usual defense mechanisms to cope with where they might end up.

I have no idea how to deal with this differently.

Like I suggested to Snake – how do you know you are unharmed? You can’t know who you might have been.

Hey Fractelle, well done to you and your sister it doesn’t take much aye to move beyond the physical.

OUG… my TV was turned off for 6 years after I gave birth the first time. Nowadays foxtels in the playroom but only on NickJr because yes I think you are right.

Adds are great aye Max, it is where they can first learn about adults lying.

I see something Mikk, in this everyone gets a say. It’s important to everyone how all kids are raised. Now if you would all just kindly ring your local DOCS offices and request they stop blacklisting me I could get on with doing what I do in the scale I am used to.

PS:
“For that to occur, children need to grow up in a stable
family, one governed by adults.”

Foxy, ring DoCS and start fostering immediatly.