Dear Max,

I agree with Dr Fitzhugh Dodson, when he
writes in his book, "How to Parent," :

"Discipline is not a four-letter word."

He talks about the "right," kind of spanking
and a "wrong," kind. By the wrong kind he means
a cruel and sadistic beating which fills a child
with hatred, and a deep desire for revenge. It's
the kind administered with a strap or stick or
some other type of parental "weapon." Or it
could be a humiliating slap in the face.

Dr Dodson says the right kind of spanking needs
no special paraphernalia. Just the hand of the
parent administered a few times on the child's
bottom. The right kind of spanking is a positive
thing. It clears the air, and is vastly to be
preferred to moralistic and guilt-inducing parental
lectures.

My children have always known when they've been
punished by me - why they were punished. And if
I've lost my temper I admit that, "Look, Mummy
goofed. I lost my temper, and I'm sorry I did."
I never pretended that the sole reason I spanked
them was for their benefit. I tried to be honest
with my kids.

If we were 100 percent perfect parents, we'd all
be so mature we'd never need to spank our kids except
in extreme situations (when the kid runs out into
the street). The point is we're not perfect. We're
not able to discipline calmly all of the time. It
would be great if we could.

Life doesn't work that way. We get fed up when our
kids misbehave and we sometimes loose our cool and
swat them. But I feel that's nothing to feel guilty
about. We feel better and they feel better, the air
is cleared.

Both parent and child get a chance to begin again.

“Jewely, you seem to be looking at the extreme case, as I said, I didn't smack for bad behavior, only for dangerous things.”

I didn’t think yours was extreme at all, you peoples here would have to go well out of your way to even make me look sideways. Your little state wards arrive punched, burnt, kicked, thrown, raped, broken. You Max and Col are in no way even close to some of the mummy’s and daddy’s I have met, or more often have never met.

“can also lead to no respect for authority, and no recognition of boundaries or any sense of empathy for others, an entirely self-centred individual.”

Nah but they would be if besides not smacking I didn’t do anything else at all. Boundaries and discipline, I am a very strict mum with rules. Respecting me, they just had to, I am mum. I create an amazing lack of options. You can be really strict without a smile ever leaving your face.

Now if you all (except OUG) did it another way that’s okay. I was a stay-at-home mum and had all the time in the world to manage behavior without any smacks, it was just a rule I made for myself and would have been ashamed of me if it went any other way.

Stop protesting so much.[smile] You wont convince me smacking is better than how me and OUG parent or that children who haven’t been smacked turn out worse than kids that have.

In fact I am exactly the person you want caring for your state wards and you know it. Now if I could just convince DoCS to stop blacklisting me because I also defended my little ones from outside cruelty all would be going smoothly right now.

I came to the conclusion a while ago that harm was done to kids when they were no longer in control. I know that sounds odd.

If there are clear boundaries and the kids are mature enough be able to control whether they cross them, then they are in some way in control of whether they get disciplined or not. Harm arises when the kid gets disciplined (whether mentally or physically - smacking isn't the issue here), but they feel it is a random act. Since can't predict what is going to happen, they are forced to be defensive all the time.

This perpetually defensive attitude is where things go badly wrong. Being defensive might mean withdrawing and in others it might mean always going on the attack first, depending on the kid. Neither outcome is good for them or us. If you can't trust a playmate not to hit you, you are better off striking first. If you can't trust your boss, you are better off stealing what you can while you have the opportunity since he is going to screw you anyway. If you can't trust your parents to behave reasonably towards you no matter what you do, you may as well run away.

The media always focuses on the act - the smacking, or perhaps the enforced solitude. But it is not that act that matters, it's the circumstances, and whether the kid actually cares.

Some have difficulty with the "cares" bit. They seem to think the kid shares their view of the world. Male teacher has sex teenage female student, and the world goes bonkers - rightly so. It is extremely unlikely the girl felt in control of what happened. She starts doubting her ability to control her encounters with men, harming her future ability to form a good relationship. But female teacher has sex with male student, and the world does the same thing? That is just a case of the mothers projecting their feelings onto the student, when in fact the student was almost certainly pushing for it as hard as he knew how.

Foxxy, your post might have been written by me, we agree.
I used positive re-enforcement far more effectively, that and total love.
I only once lost my temper, and sat them down and apologised and talked it through.
Only ever used my hand, on their hand, and the last time as when the younger pair were hitting each other at 6&7, never since. Family round-tables were a regular event, and I made a point of really listening to them, many changes in our household came from their wants, needs, and ideas. I figured that by showing them real respect at home I would build their self-confidence and hopefully prevent them from seeking it in other, more dangerous ways. Worked for us!

Jewely
I am discussing discipline as a parenting tool, you seem to be focused on something else.
I admire and respect those who do what you do, but dealing with already damaged kids is a whole different field. You seem, to me, to be on the right track, little wonder DOCS doesn’t like you. I worked in Crisis Care and Housing for the Salvation Army for years, plus as a volunteer, so I do know whereof you speak, I have seen things that still cause me problems. You deal with the victims, I used to go and collect them, see the horrors of where they came from, pick up broken and bleeding babies, and confront the alleged-humans who caused it. I have seen the terror in the eyes of a little girl, just because I was male, and I lost it, had a “word” with the offenders, to no avail. And I am not ashamed to say, I wept, many times. Eventually I quit, had to, just couldn’t handle it any more, the stress was literally killing me.

"Spare the Rod and spoil the child" contains a lot of home spun truth. Obviously it is not always appropriate, but at school we always got beaten for the slightest infraction, but it sure taught us right from wrong. It was quick, sometimes drew blood and was soon forgotten.

We never had the bullying, dishonesty and anger that seems so prevalent now. We were disciplined but we always knew why we were punished and were better for it. Perhaps this was why the school produced more than its fair share of military decorations in the last two world wars.....40 DFC and DSOs, 34 MCs and even a VC. Service to others was always considered a priority and encouraged. I am equally sure that what is considered brutal by so many people was not an instilled quality. If it was, why are there so many unprovoked and uncontrolled attacks on people when corporal punishment is no longer an option?

Lets just all go back to the dark ages shall we? Bring back the cane and the stocks, the pillory and the wheel. Lets get some hangings going and bring out the cat (o nine tails). Public executions and burnings at the stake.

Come on people this in 2009 not 1570. We are civilised peoples not barbarians that live by the sword and the rule of the strong over the weak.

How is violence ever justified? Especially against defenceless children? Why is it an assault if you do it to an adult but "discipline" if it is inflicted on a child? Why should we not be allowed to "discipline" other adults?

If your child is sucking on power cords or running across roads then it is you as the parent that deserves punishment not your naive and obviously uncared for child.

I was "disciplined" in the usual 60s/70s manner with belts, wooden spoons and the dustpan broom fairly regularly and it didnt make me any kind of wonderboy. It made me into a cynical, scared little kid who hated and feared his parents.

This is all about authoritarianism, paternalism and violence.
Hitting anyone is wrong. Hitting weak, defenseless kids is bloody abhorrent and anyone I hear of doing it will be reported as a child abuser.