Could only find old posts on this subject, and no recognisable posters, so I thought I'd re-enter it.
Discipline, or the lack there-of.
I'm a believer; I smacked my kids, for dangerous acts - fire, electricity, sharps, etc, but not for behavioural matters, other than them hitting each other.
I personally believe the education system is failing kids, because of a lack of discipline at school. I believe that kids learn self-control and self-discipline by having a disciplined environment to grow and learn in. I also believe that if you need to smack past about 5-7 years of age, there is no point, it's time to find other processes to deal with the problems.
And YES, I do believe teachers should be allowed to use corporal punishment, under strict guidelines.
I followed these beliefs in the raising of three kids, and am as proud as anyone of my young adults, all achievers and very self-disciplined. I am very close with them still, and they are perfectly happy with the way they were brought up, smacks and all.
OK, you can call me a brutal savage now......

the aborigonals say..hitting a child only drives the problem deeper,..in aborigonal society it says clearly..'a parents duty is to love the child'..[to create the person]..it is society that makes the citizen]

with animals its proven that any correction..must take place in the monent..the correction is needed...one second too late..the beast has no idea what it did wrong..[and accepts only the fact it is hated..[lost the linkage..it has done anything wrong

whats with adults hitting kids?...is it to make you feel better..[or them]..i only slapped my daughter once..[when she was sucking on an electric lead]..and my son twice..[once when crossing the road without looking[the other when he was threatening the daughter

if you cant remember why you had to hit your kid..[that means your hitting them too much..as for others hitting them,..that should clearly be out of bounds...here is why..[if threats work with kids then any threat will do]...so here is a for instance

a child molestering/teacher hits your child..so they are afraid to tell you they been molestored...and if they get away with it..[or god forbid one of you nutters says its fine..the danger is clear]..threats work

on the other hand if violence is forbidden..[not just in words but as a family fact..[you wont get kids beating each other up in the streets[i didnt mention fighting in movies,..that also leads to us being conditioned..to accept people belting the ccc rap out of each other]

any violence is wrong..[my kids dont recall me hitting them 3 times but i sure do]..yes..you can excuse it all you like..[but why your parents hit you isnt the case in point...[you hitting your kids is]

ps i feel the same way about woman cutting off a boys foreskin..as i do about femail circumzision..[if you want to do it to your boy..first get your self done]...no anistetic..

the kids grow up and realise they been mutilated..[thus..think its allright to mutilate back]..it sets up a certain mindset..[an inner anger..that allows vengence..disscised as dicipline]

the same type support the same rites...just because it was done to you..is it thus right to do the same to others?

My elder daughter told me, one fathers day, that I had been strict with her and her sister when they were growing up....

then she added the rider....

"but we needed it."

I hated disciplining my daughters but I did it to enforce the boundaries of courtesy, politness and consideration of others in them.

I did have one rule, smack only with my hand.. then I had some idea to how much it stung.

However, as well as discipline, they also got alot of attention and my unconditional love.

Both my girls are responsible, respectful and productive individuals who have high self esteem and self worth.

Any prancing nancy who thinks you can bring up kids without the imposing limits and boundaries to their conduct and behaviour (discipline) is a fool.

The undisciplined child grows into the undisciplined adult, with an endless sense of self-entitlement and no idea of personal responsibility... the sort who feels it is OK to be a parasite on the rest of society demanding ever greater dole cheques and hand outs and the sort who thinks the rules never apply to them.

New-aged, airey-fairy modernist teaching theorists have the defects of alot of maladjusted adults on their conscience.

Max you are a brutal savage. Nah you’re alright. Gawd I used to have appointments given to me for set punishments and jeez it hurt when the buckle got you.

I didn’t smack mine and of course I don’t smack the foster children. But I have in the last nearly two decades; about 5 different situations now when I have gotten such a fright I have slapped a little hand away from something or pushed a child out of fear – although I remember the emotion hot on fears tail was one of anger.

Oh yeah then guilt (that lasts much longer than the other two).

OUG – yep no circumcision, no way no how, horrible and stupid thing to do and I had a huge fight with two sets of parents when my son was born. Hope he doesn’t ever login here now.

Yes Col absolutely agree with you, boundaries and discipline are vital and the kids crave it.

I have realised that kids that haven’t been hit have this abundance of self confidence and more fight in them because their parents didn’t do it no one else is bloody allowed to. Both mine are super confident outgoing teens (daughter far too outgoing).

I always wondered what I would be like if I wasn’t raised to be so physically scared all the time growing up.

Jewely, you seem to be looking at the extreme case, as I said, I didn't smack for bad behaviour, only for dangerous things. My kids are as sassy and confident as any of their peers, but have innate self-discipline now. Oh yes, I remember the guilt, I hated doing it, but, needs must, it was a conscious decision, and action, so no regrets.
"....more fight in them because their parents didn’t do it no one else is bloody allowed to." can also lead to no respect for authority, and no recognition of boundaries or any sense of empathy for others, an entirely self-centred individual.

i should add..there is more than physical-cruelty,there is mental cruelty,and debatedly the mental is more cruel,..i have allways had a way with words,..and have raised my kids..to not be frightend of words

i read verosiously at every stage of parenting,..comming to the main conclusion that kids dont do as we say..[but copy that they see us do,..especially when they think we arnt watching..[or they think we dont know..their watching]..maybe my way with words are slightly egsagurated..[im talking about at the child level...lol]

as parents we all..[mostly]..do as was done to us..[on the other hand there are those who refuse to repeat..that done to them..[kids need dicipline...especially self dicipline..[but more need a good egsample]

there was one time i recall my child..stole some small-change from mum's purse,..i was told to fix it..i will repeat the words..[i said your mother loves you..[and you are willing to betray her love for money..at this stage..some may hit..

but i hit..with emotion..[i took a twenty dollar note from my wallet and burned it in front of him...saying other words..i now forget..[but he no doudt recalls]..he has never stolen since..still has the corner of the burnt-note in his pockett..

it may seem emotionally cruel..[but the point is to make the correction memorable..[but not as just another vile-ence episode...or quasi-legalised parental/assult]...we all do the best we can in the moment..[

my one rule was not to physiclly hit,b..ut in the heat of the moment this may be temper-airilly forgotten...[on those three occasions,to my shame..[instinct can take over...but thats my guilt i must live with..but any who uses an instrument on a child..is a coward

children must know they are loved and have certain expectations they must adhere to..[but then so to must parents...and especially teachers

i could forgive a cop giving a kid a kick up the but..[but not any further..[or to the point of injury]...one slap is dicipline..[any more is vengence..[spite or meanness/cruelty]...

make the point..and allways explain why...and reward good behaviour..[and some time afterwards..talk about it to them]..[they cant hear if they are crying[or yelling]..[or thinking][or frightend]...but you all know that allready..[right]

Dear Max,

I agree with Dr Fitzhugh Dodson, when he
writes in his book, "How to Parent," :

"Discipline is not a four-letter word."

He talks about the "right," kind of spanking
and a "wrong," kind. By the wrong kind he means
a cruel and sadistic beating which fills a child
with hatred, and a deep desire for revenge. It's
the kind administered with a strap or stick or
some other type of parental "weapon." Or it
could be a humiliating slap in the face.

Dr Dodson says the right kind of spanking needs
no special paraphernalia. Just the hand of the
parent administered a few times on the child's
bottom. The right kind of spanking is a positive
thing. It clears the air, and is vastly to be
preferred to moralistic and guilt-inducing parental
lectures.

My children have always known when they've been
punished by me - why they were punished. And if
I've lost my temper I admit that, "Look, Mummy
goofed. I lost my temper, and I'm sorry I did."
I never pretended that the sole reason I spanked
them was for their benefit. I tried to be honest
with my kids.

If we were 100 percent perfect parents, we'd all
be so mature we'd never need to spank our kids except
in extreme situations (when the kid runs out into
the street). The point is we're not perfect. We're
not able to discipline calmly all of the time. It
would be great if we could.

Life doesn't work that way. We get fed up when our
kids misbehave and we sometimes loose our cool and
swat them. But I feel that's nothing to feel guilty
about. We feel better and they feel better, the air
is cleared.

Both parent and child get a chance to begin again.

“Jewely, you seem to be looking at the extreme case, as I said, I didn't smack for bad behavior, only for dangerous things.”

I didn’t think yours was extreme at all, you peoples here would have to go well out of your way to even make me look sideways. Your little state wards arrive punched, burnt, kicked, thrown, raped, broken. You Max and Col are in no way even close to some of the mummy’s and daddy’s I have met, or more often have never met.

“can also lead to no respect for authority, and no recognition of boundaries or any sense of empathy for others, an entirely self-centred individual.”

Nah but they would be if besides not smacking I didn’t do anything else at all. Boundaries and discipline, I am a very strict mum with rules. Respecting me, they just had to, I am mum. I create an amazing lack of options. You can be really strict without a smile ever leaving your face.

Now if you all (except OUG) did it another way that’s okay. I was a stay-at-home mum and had all the time in the world to manage behavior without any smacks, it was just a rule I made for myself and would have been ashamed of me if it went any other way.

Stop protesting so much.[smile] You wont convince me smacking is better than how me and OUG parent or that children who haven’t been smacked turn out worse than kids that have.

In fact I am exactly the person you want caring for your state wards and you know it. Now if I could just convince DoCS to stop blacklisting me because I also defended my little ones from outside cruelty all would be going smoothly right now.

I came to the conclusion a while ago that harm was done to kids when they were no longer in control. I know that sounds odd.

If there are clear boundaries and the kids are mature enough be able to control whether they cross them, then they are in some way in control of whether they get disciplined or not. Harm arises when the kid gets disciplined (whether mentally or physically - smacking isn't the issue here), but they feel it is a random act. Since can't predict what is going to happen, they are forced to be defensive all the time.

This perpetually defensive attitude is where things go badly wrong. Being defensive might mean withdrawing and in others it might mean always going on the attack first, depending on the kid. Neither outcome is good for them or us. If you can't trust a playmate not to hit you, you are better off striking first. If you can't trust your boss, you are better off stealing what you can while you have the opportunity since he is going to screw you anyway. If you can't trust your parents to behave reasonably towards you no matter what you do, you may as well run away.

The media always focuses on the act - the smacking, or perhaps the enforced solitude. But it is not that act that matters, it's the circumstances, and whether the kid actually cares.

Some have difficulty with the "cares" bit. They seem to think the kid shares their view of the world. Male teacher has sex teenage female student, and the world goes bonkers - rightly so. It is extremely unlikely the girl felt in control of what happened. She starts doubting her ability to control her encounters with men, harming her future ability to form a good relationship. But female teacher has sex with male student, and the world does the same thing? That is just a case of the mothers projecting their feelings onto the student, when in fact the student was almost certainly pushing for it as hard as he knew how.

Foxxy, your post might have been written by me, we agree.
I used positive re-enforcement far more effectively, that and total love.
I only once lost my temper, and sat them down and apologised and talked it through.
Only ever used my hand, on their hand, and the last time as when the younger pair were hitting each other at 6&7, never since. Family round-tables were a regular event, and I made a point of really listening to them, many changes in our household came from their wants, needs, and ideas. I figured that by showing them real respect at home I would build their self-confidence and hopefully prevent them from seeking it in other, more dangerous ways. Worked for us!

Jewely
I am discussing discipline as a parenting tool, you seem to be focused on something else.
I admire and respect those who do what you do, but dealing with already damaged kids is a whole different field. You seem, to me, to be on the right track, little wonder DOCS doesn’t like you. I worked in Crisis Care and Housing for the Salvation Army for years, plus as a volunteer, so I do know whereof you speak, I have seen things that still cause me problems. You deal with the victims, I used to go and collect them, see the horrors of where they came from, pick up broken and bleeding babies, and confront the alleged-humans who caused it. I have seen the terror in the eyes of a little girl, just because I was male, and I lost it, had a “word” with the offenders, to no avail. And I am not ashamed to say, I wept, many times. Eventually I quit, had to, just couldn’t handle it any more, the stress was literally killing me.

"Spare the Rod and spoil the child" contains a lot of home spun truth. Obviously it is not always appropriate, but at school we always got beaten for the slightest infraction, but it sure taught us right from wrong. It was quick, sometimes drew blood and was soon forgotten.

We never had the bullying, dishonesty and anger that seems so prevalent now. We were disciplined but we always knew why we were punished and were better for it. Perhaps this was why the school produced more than its fair share of military decorations in the last two world wars.....40 DFC and DSOs, 34 MCs and even a VC. Service to others was always considered a priority and encouraged. I am equally sure that what is considered brutal by so many people was not an instilled quality. If it was, why are there so many unprovoked and uncontrolled attacks on people when corporal punishment is no longer an option?

Lets just all go back to the dark ages shall we? Bring back the cane and the stocks, the pillory and the wheel. Lets get some hangings going and bring out the cat (o nine tails). Public executions and burnings at the stake.

Come on people this in 2009 not 1570. We are civilised peoples not barbarians that live by the sword and the rule of the strong over the weak.

How is violence ever justified? Especially against defenceless children? Why is it an assault if you do it to an adult but "discipline" if it is inflicted on a child? Why should we not be allowed to "discipline" other adults?

If your child is sucking on power cords or running across roads then it is you as the parent that deserves punishment not your naive and obviously uncared for child.

I was "disciplined" in the usual 60s/70s manner with belts, wooden spoons and the dustpan broom fairly regularly and it didnt make me any kind of wonderboy. It made me into a cynical, scared little kid who hated and feared his parents.

This is all about authoritarianism, paternalism and violence.
Hitting anyone is wrong. Hitting weak, defenseless kids is bloody abhorrent and anyone I hear of doing it will be reported as a child abuser.

RStuart that was completely weird. Kids are actually quite happy and comforted not being in control and in fact they much prefer the big people to take just about all control. They like being happy though and will follow rules if the good times continue.

What they do like is choice and responsibility in a controlled way even little things like okay lets get dressed and you are going to wear this top but you choose which trousers you want.

They also like warnings… It is bedtime in five minutes not a sudden Bedtime Now! Learn how to time stuff, don’t make bedtime in the middle of some program they are watching.

They respond brilliantly to their opinion being listened to… we have to go shopping but after would you all prefer to come home and have ice blocks or stop at Maccas for an ice cream. Nah we are not doing both.

But part of what I do is create a little team, these are little kids without their families so they need a little team of their own. We have movie nights and normally the kids will be asked to go decide which movie they want to watch first, the odd fight erupts over this but then distraction comes in… c’mon popcorn is ready and you all need to sit down oh look at this movie it looks like a good one to start with who chose that.

Much older kids will get the, okay now stop and listen to why I don’t want you to do this. They bloody hate being lectured and they know I love a good bleat. I will even get all their friends to come in so I can lecture to a bigger crowd and they can all tell me what is so good about these plans they have.

My husband says I am the most manipulative person on earth – in a good way.[smile] But no sudden physical contact with any child unless they are choking thanks.

@Jewely
I commend and thank you for your enlightenment and hope you and your kids have wonderful and fulfilling lives.

Maximillion

IMO you are undoubtedly right with your PRINCIPAL of discipline/ and corporal punishment (CP). There are of course other issues at play.

The one that seems to be lacking in the posts was highlighted in the posed question 'Do as I do.!' as opposed to the all too common “do as I say not as I do' or 'Go and watch TV daddy's busy'
Given the latters we shouldn't be surprised if the children develop unwanted attitudes/behaviours
The ads on TV about children picking up attitudes from the parents drinking alcohol .

Also one can't be too complacent about the influences of external factors like TV and ads.
These are fine in a balanced home where parent(s) make the effort to counter the fantasy on 'the box' with reality.

While all this may seem common sense the point is, not all parents' are either as good as they think they are or even make the effort.

I try/ed to remember this when I had the mind to criticise the school system. I found that more often than not (but not exclusively) a poorly behaved child has SOME basis in the home and all the CP etc. in the world won't undo the damage done at home.

CP was “in” when I was young yet while at a private school, there was a regular list of expelees. Many of these were from “good families” (sic?) .

“Dad you were tough but we needed it” is while well intended, can be faint praise .
Questions like 'Why did they need you to be tough?' and isn't this retrospect really confirmation of 'give me the child I'll give you the adult ' (Jesuit truism). Given that I'm not perfect I hope my children do better than me.

I resist 'pride' (I dislike the term as it implies value judgement and ownership of what/who they are) in our children. I like to think that their achievement are theirs. I was merely A source.
I love all our children regardless but empathise with their happinesses and sadnesses etc.

I take exception to your contumely MIKK. Whenever someone on this forum expresses an opinion, there is always someone who retaliates with some insensate and somewhat exaggerated polemic. I don't think anyone suggested hanging or burning at the stake. I know you are trying to make a point, but when you say "Hitting weak, defenseless kids is bloody abhorrent and anyone I hear of doing it will be reported as a child abuser" conveys a totally different picture than controlled corporal punishment administered with understanding by both parties. It sounds as though you had little affection from your parents if you were afraid of them. I grew up knowing right from wrong and it was often validated by a good stinging slap on the backside and great respect and love for and from my parents.

I would like to know why there is a far greater incidence of bad behaviour, insolence, loss of respect, anger and violence since any form of corporal punishment was abolished. Our prisons are overflowing and there is no sense of responsibility. I just believe that most kids grow up now not having these disciplines, partly because they have never had them taught and that teaching in part relates to a little bit of pain sometimes. Our grandparents sometimes had a few things right.

Perhaps I've been blessed but I never smacked my two, now both teenagers, and they seemed to have turned out alright although one never knows what the future may bring.

I remember a friend who was smacking their child because of drawing on walls. We told ours, with great ceremony I might add, that they had a whole wall each they could draw on to their hearts content (in their own rooms) but the deal was they were not to draw on any others. We never had a problem.

These were places of pride and as they are now quite proficient with their art I am sure there was an added benefit. It was quite a sad day when they finally said they wanted them painted over but we still have the pictures.

I had always regarded physical punishment would signal a failure by me as a parent however I am willing to accept that a couple of terrific kids probably afforded me the luxury of abstinence.

“I am discussing discipline as a parenting tool, you seem to be focused on something else.”

Sorry Max I really lack focus right now, I will try and concentrate but you are referring to physical discipline as a parenting tool?

“little wonder DOCS doesn’t like you.”

The little caseworkers like me but their requests for children to be placed with me are being, I have been told, ignored by management. Further proof I guess about how much management care for the children if my punishment is more important.

“…pick up broken and bleeding babies, and confront the alleged-humans who caused it. I have seen the terror in the eyes of a little girl, just because I was male, and I lost it, had a “word” with the offenders, to no avail.”

Sucks aye and few understand it. I am usually in a better place, they arrive, I fix them, they go, usually to god only knows where or with who, I never get to hear. I can’t care for the child if having bad thoughts about their parents, I let that stuff go.

“And I am not ashamed to say, I wept, many times. Eventually I quit, had to, just couldn’t handle it any more, the stress was literally killing me”

Hmm… I have spent three months now is some sort of weird state of panic that sort of bubbles up to rage then back to panic, I suspect I have given myself an ulcer or something. I will weep, but not yet.

Thank you for the support Mikk.

Snake, we don’t know, you don’t even know. Unless you have a twin that was never smacked for a comparison?

I don’t think you’d be able to find a single prison inmate that wasn’t smacked or worse growing up.

But, I do know, and I would swear to this under threat of death; A child can learn right from wrong and everything in-between in completely “devoid of pain and fear” lessons. Takes more time and a bit more thought but I always thought children worth the effort.

snake raises an interesting point<<..would like to know why there is a far greater incidence of bad behaviour,insolence,loss of respect, anger and violence since..any form of corporal punishment was abolished>>..mate i will give you a clue

when i was a child we had shows like my three sons..[casey jones,texus rangers,..when i had kids we had shows like seseme street[that dude going around doing good deeds etc[from bonanza]..almost an angel..in short we had movies that had good egsamples to copy

now we have simpsons,..that show on sbs,..non stop murder and cop and medical/cooking..biggest loser type shows..[in short the media shows perversion..[its like we all decended into the lower hells..[have you watched the abc kids shows now on even the abc..its a sad reflection on the abc that used to educate us]

in short i blame the media,[in large part..that has this violent programing..and the high flash rate[watcch the zombified kids sitting there getting uploaded with the most vile info..[sit up and watch the real evil revealed midnight to dawn...

kids are blank slates ..we write the programing into them...its as a previous respondant wrote...do as you like...because the tv says do as i [tv]..do,

anyhow its the tv programing...deliberatly done to divide the kids into consumers and sheep...add in the fact mum/dad is working..and teachers are only there to help the class score from falling too low,...no wonder it was said in the end times woe those who are having kids..

its pure hell out there..[and worse for those sitting hypnotoised infront of that big box of light..in the loungeroom/bedroom sending out its dark mess-age to the me..me-sages

And here in Mikk we see the problem.
Sorry friend, just because your parents went over the top doesn’t mean it’s bad, perhaps you were overly sensitive?
Seriously, you honestly can’t see the difference between a grown person and a growing child? I would call that a perception disability.
All the rest of your post I find to be idealistic, non-rational, PC bulldust, sorry.
Finally, calculated, careful discipline is NOT assault, its education, and protection, and it’s lack is why the young today have so little empathy or self-control

Jewely

My sister and I were never smacked - though we knew when we had crossed a line.

My sister never hits her children (and neither do I), again they know (boy and a girl) when they have gone too far. It is about setting boundaries and sticking by them. Very easy to hit; not so easy to be consistent with the rules you set down, but in the long term worth it, because those children are unlikely to grow up and hit their kids.

I was hit with a wooden ruler at school in front of the entire class when I was about 8 years old - FOR SOMETHING I DID NOT DO. These days, well I am more inclined to question authority than to immediately take orders. Treat me with respect and I am as sweet as a kitten. Treat me badly - well you take your chance.

Jewely: "Kids are actually quite happy and comforted not being in control"

You are talking about controlling when they eat, where they sit, when they sleep and so on. Do disagreement there.

I am talking about being in control of their discipline. Let me put it a different way. When you can predict when something happens, you are in control of it if does happen. Thus the kid can not control the fact that he is not allowed to write on the walls. But he can control whether he gets disciplined because of it.

By way of illustration, lets assume the kid could not rationally control whether he wrote on the walls. He knows it's wrong, yet his rational mind can not prevent him from doing it. Disciplining him when he does write on the walls under those circumstances is totally counter productive. Now you say - well that never happens. Except it does - something very like this occurs when a person has Tourette's Syndrome.

In fact a similar thing happens all the time - not because the kid is behaving irrationally, but because the parent is. For example they are tired, tense and "discipline" the kid unreasonably. From the kids point of view this is no different. They are getting disciplined. They don't like it, but there is no way they can prevent it. In other words, they have been robbed of all control over what happens to them.

I am convinced it is this that is harmful - not whether the discipline is delivered via a smack, or time-out, or no dinner, having the play-station removed or any other action that doesn't cause serious pain, injury or anguish.

Most of us older ones were after all smacked and did suffer corporal punishment at school. Yet we somehow escaped unharmed. At the other end of the spectrum, you hear of kids committing suicide even through their parents didn't lay a hand on them. You don't have to lay a hand on a kid to be a very controlling parent.

At last some rational discussion and opinion. I am the first to admit that nothing is totally "black and white" Every child is a different case and circumstances differ. Of course it is also about having educated parents who have not been in a self perpetuating cycle of violence. As has already been mentioned, boundaries should be adhered to and physically chastising a kid should be a last resort. Sometimes this is the only thing they understand. I constantly see parents in supermarkets giving in to their kids, because the kids are bright enough to know their parents will give in if they badger them and frustrate them long enough.

For the first time I find myself actually agreeing with One-under-God. Television is a bad influence. We accept so much violence as normal, but show a naked breast under innocuous circumstances and the TV switchboard lights up in an instant from horrified viewers. We have strange priorities. I dislike advertising so much on TV I go to great lengths to avoid watching it. It is often very dishonest, it prays on emotion, it is noisy and raises everyone's expectations to an unattainable level to make them dissatisfied with their lot. This of course applies to children too and creates enormous influence. You only have to see their table manners and the way they eat to make it all "acceptable" and that's only one very small example.............I digress !

Whooops, that should be "preys" on emotion !

I always handled ads by discussing them with the kids, from pre-school on, as they grew so did the depth of the discussion. This went a huge way towards destroying the ads effectiveness. I found that taking the kids seriously from that age on and talking everything through with them, whatever the subject, helped us all, me with them, and they with the world. They had clear boundaries, but knew absolutely they were loved, and at home what they thought and felt mattered, so by talking things like ads through I was able to help them learn to think clearly for themselves.

Snake

First thanks for teaching me a new word. contumely. Rude, contempt - maybe. Insolence - I hope so. Arrogance - no.

Sorry snake but your weaseling around the violence involved is a bit rich isnt it. Hitting anyone is always violence. It teaches children to become violent themselves when they want to solve an issue.

You said
"Hitting weak, defenseless kids is bloody abhorrent and anyone I hear of doing it will be reported as a child abuser" conveys a totally different picture than controlled corporal punishment administered with understanding by both parties.

So the children agree to be hit do they? What a crock. There is no "understanding" between children and their parents allowing violence. It is a relationship of utter powerlessness for the child and the adult makes ALL the rules.

No one knows for sure the reasons for current bad behavior by children and im not so sure it was any different in my day. I know my parents and their generation sure saw kids of the day as little scumbags. The same as their parents did I expect. I do know that you cannot connect the reduction of violent "discipline" of children with any type of current behavior. Repeat after me. Correlation does not equal causation. Like others have said tv, the media and imho advertising has a larger impact as does the selfishness and greed promoted by the capitalist system. No one cares so why is it surprising that kids grow up with no empathy and no conscience.

Max sorry but you are wrong. It IS violence. Education and protection are what parents do instead of hitting. If your kid is running out on roads, sucking on power points or otherwise endangering itself then it is you as parent that are responsible and in need of "discipline" as you should be ensuring they cant do such things. I bet they said the same about the reformers who got rid of all the things I mentioned in my first post. Was objecting to the lash or the wheel or the noose "idealistic, non-rational, PC bulldust"?

Raising a child can't be reduced to
a set of rules. Parents and their children
are unique. They have a special relationship,
which is different from any other relationship.
It can't be generalised.

The years before six are the most important in
establishing attitudes and habit patterns which
will last throughout life. The relationship established
with your child in their preschool years will
determine your relationship with them throughout
the rest of their life. For example, to prevent
a teenager from becoming a deviant juvenile, take the
time to establish a solid relationship of affection
and mutual respect when they're a pre-schooler.

We can learn many scientific facts about children, but
I found that if you don't have the 'feel of childhood,'
you won't guide your child wisely. You'll know the
words of parenting, but you'll lack the tune.
To get the feel of childhood -re-establish contact
with the child within yourself. That's the best single
guide to bringing up your own children.

Each of our children is a unique combination of genes.
They're also growing up in a unique position in your
family. Your children deserve to be treated with respect
of their uniqueness. I don't believe in trying to fit
them into some pre-conceived mold of what we as parents
think they should be. To me the most important thing
I can do for my child is to stand back and allow them to
actualize the unique and potential self which is unfplding
within them.

For that to occur, children need to grow up in a stable
family, one governed by adults. Children need strong
leaders running the government of their family, they need
strong, loving parents who will guide them, but not
coerce or tyrannize them.

In guiding the behaviour of your children it's important
that you make a distinction between internal feelings
and outward actions. It's reasonable to expect children
to learn to conttrol their outward actions according to
their age and stage of development. It's not reasonable to
expect a child to control their feelings, for thoughts
and feelings come into the mind unbidden.

cont'd.

Mikk,

Clearly I agree in essence with your view however I do have considerable reservations with the apparent B/W context of CP as you seem to express it.

Specifically one could demonstrate that any form of violence in counter productive. The corollary to that must be “What constitutes violence” in which case I would suggest yelling impatience, losses of 'cool' et al are simply forms of violence. These displays may be overt or far more subtle. Either way they too can have impact. I learned early not to underestimate the sponge like nature of 'our' offsprungs.
Hence my emphasis on the differences between 'Do as I do' and 'Do as I say not as I do'.

All this means We can only TRY to provide the child with apposite roles.
Notwithstanding this we are all human with short comings and it is unrealistic to be absolute about anything so individual.

As a crisis intervention counselor I dealt with many instances where extremes and or absolutes at either end were partially contributive to long standing issues.
Some children find it harder to deal with the the verbal reasoning.
e.g. Number 2 son suffers from Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD). It can be objectively demonstrated that although his I Q is high average he mentally processes about 65/70% of lengthy or complex verbal instructions and fills in the blanks, often incorrectly. Calm rational correction with him has never worked. He needs other strategies. He needs visual cues at a very early age smack on the hand worked.

My caution is this "The only absolute it that there are no absolutes and context matters."

cont'd

Although, as a parent you assume responsibility
for teaching your child to control their actions,
its equally important to allow them the freedom to
express their feelings. I also believe that wisely
chosen toys and books add to a child's stimulation
and intellectual development. The intellectual
development that is given particularly in the first
five years of life is of crucial importance for
the optimal development of their intelligence.

Stimulating their language development, teaching
them to become interested in words, to love books,
play games which teach them to think logically
all of these are part and parcel of the rich
intellectual heritage you can give your children
by the time they're six years old.

New parents have a great deal to learn about the
art of parenting - and to do a really good job
it's essential to know quite a bit about the
way children grow. I read everything I could find
on the subject. And, as I mentioned in my earlier
post - I got to love and trust Dr Fitzhugh Dodson's
book, "How to Parent." From which I have quoted quite
freely in my posts on this thread. His approach worked
for me.

Evening RStuart, I am very controlling and I have often had 6 kids under five at a time so not letting things get chaotic is important for individual safety and my own personal sanity.

Tourette’s kid… they are a whole different ball game; same with any special needs kid.

You aren’t talking discipline as such you are talking punishment/consequences when they are not displaying self discipline?

Kids often absentmindedly do stuff, break stuff etc and you just call out to them like “wake up boy”. Something has been picked to bits or broken you mention that it wasn’t cool.

The other is simple, don’t be irrational. Tell them if you have a headache and to expect a gumpy person for a bit. Communicate lots, check how they’re doing internally as well.

You know the worse thing I do? I am consistently nice to them, I am very aware that I do not allow them to build any usual defense mechanisms to cope with where they might end up.

I have no idea how to deal with this differently.

Like I suggested to Snake – how do you know you are unharmed? You can’t know who you might have been.

Hey Fractelle, well done to you and your sister it doesn’t take much aye to move beyond the physical.

OUG… my TV was turned off for 6 years after I gave birth the first time. Nowadays foxtels in the playroom but only on NickJr because yes I think you are right.

Adds are great aye Max, it is where they can first learn about adults lying.

I see something Mikk, in this everyone gets a say. It’s important to everyone how all kids are raised. Now if you would all just kindly ring your local DOCS offices and request they stop blacklisting me I could get on with doing what I do in the scale I am used to.

PS:
“For that to occur, children need to grow up in a stable
family, one governed by adults.”

Foxy, ring DoCS and start fostering immediatly.

rstuart

"Most of us older ones were after all smacked and did suffer corporal punishment at school. Yet we somehow escaped unharmed."

While most of us older ones did suffer corporal punishment not all of us could be said to have escaped unharmed.

Please remember, I am discussing children from birth to about 7, depending on the individual, beyond that age corporal punishment is un-needed, their minds have developed to the point where other methods are more effective, and their sense of self-identity usually makes it counter-productive.
To those of you who decry corporal punishment as violence, just what do you call playing mind-games with little children who are NOT mentally able to deal with it?
Far more long-term damage is done by words and moods than a mere smack on the fingers with an explanation of why. That is something little minds can understand, “do this means hurties”, whereas long-winded talks and emotional punishment are beyond their intellectual capabilities, all they know is their parents don’t like them, and they don’t know why.
Kids are NOT adults, they do NOT have the ability to understand complex situations, CANNOT think more than a few minutes ahead, they are simple little minds and souls.
Mental torment and confusion, feelings of rejection, loneliness and fear, these are the results of your approach, and are very dangerous in the long term. Far more so than a judicious smack on the fingers. (cont’)

(cont’)
CSteele, if we banned everything that hurt anyone, we’d all be stifled at birth. Life is risk, and there will always be the weak who are damaged by things that don’t bother the majority, that’s life, we’re all different.
Mikk, some of your comments make me wonder if you’ve ever actually had to raise children? Anyone who’s spent significant time with care and control of 2-5yr olds knows they are capable of instantaneous movement, can pass through locked doors and walls, travel at warp nine, open virtually anything, and are guaranteed to scare the life out of you on a regular basis. That is, unless you restrict their lives and environment to such an extent that you stifle any hope of them learning, exploring, testing, and achieving their true potential. Let them be kids, they grow up fast enough, and kids NEED to play and explore, which means risk, we are monkeys after all.
To those of you who say it creates problems, I simply say, look at history, humanity has been using this method to raise it’s young for millenia, and the vast majority of people have been normal, within their context. If your claims had merit, we would never have achieved the intellectual heights and civilization that permits you to live as you do and indulge in this piffle.
.

I understand your POV Maxi.

One of the issues that concerns me is that kids don't get to be kids; playgrounds are padded, they're driven to and from school, what used to be a back yard is now a concrete strip around a McMansion. Where I live, in the ranges, kids still get to climb trees, swing from ropes, build cubby-houses and maybe even break a bone or two - always great for the image at school. No amount of discipline is going to help unless children get to test boundaries for themselves - discover the joys and the dangers (within reason of course).

We can't protect them from life, but we can help them to live it.

CSteele:“While most of us older ones did suffer corporal punishment not all of us could be said to have escaped unharmed.”

By corporal you mean outside the home and in the schools? I think I was in the last year of intermediate school when caning disappeared, but I had never been caned – girls weren’t anyways. All the kids through high school still knew which teacher hit the hardest or had the best aim with the chalk. It was all harmful but to face it means to face our parents and many don’t want to do that now.

Kids were still weary of the physical stuff for years at my school.

Kids now have no fear but where most schools seem to have failed is they didn’t replace fear with anything.

In Ch-CH my children went to a public school with over two and a half thousand students, four principals and one head principal. And my gawd they were strict. Not one allowance for any rule broken. Uniforms perfect. You would get an e-mail immediately if your child did not turn up that morning and everything would hit the fan.

So I think that particular school had it right, discipline/boundaries and rigid reinforcement and certainly every teacher commanded respect.

Examinator, chill baby… just cause some of don’t hit doesn’t mean we use other nasty tactics to enforce control. I save the long winded stuff for the teens and yes they dread it. But I wouldn’t underestimate the under 7’s either, some are incredibly bright and manipulative.

The absence of physical harm does not automatically imply the presence of mental and emotional cruelty.

No matter how many padded surfaces I provide the wee sods always fine that one hard patch to fall on Fractelle.[smile]

Jewely: "You aren’t talking discipline as such you are talking punishment/consequences when they are not displaying self discipline?"

There are two discussions going on here. One is the "right" way to bring up the perfect child. Listening to you girls discuss it is like listening Barista on how to make the perfect cup of coffee. I have no doubt he does prepare a very good cup of coffee, but you could vary it a fair bit and still end up with something drinkable.

The other discussion is more along the lines of how to avoid blowing up the coffee machine. Your distinction between discipline and self discipline sounds like you are talking about the former. I am trying to discuss the latter.

The point I am trying to make is I think you could discipline just about every child with smacks, and providing you do it correctly - produce a fairly well rounded kid. In fact, our parents did. It might be that you can produce a slightly better rounded kid by avoiding smacks completely - sounds dubious, but maybe it is so. But it's not a discussion I want to get into.

Equally, you can produce an abused and damaged kid while never laying a hand on them. The problem isn't the type of discipline. It isn't that simple - if it was everybody would produce perfect kids. The problem is when to discipline, and how often. Knowing when and how often is far more difficult - that is why you girls discuss it endlessly.

And that is my point. The original question was about smacking. I am saying smacking isn't good or bad per se. Bad outcomes are produced by bad parenting, not smacking. If you managed the impossible and stopped smacking, poor parents would find some other way to loose control.

Well said, rstuart, good insight.

Dear rstuart,

You've summed it up very well!

“Equally, you can produce an abused and damaged kid while never laying a hand on them. …isn't that simple - if it was everybody would produce perfect kids. The problem is when to discipline, and how often. Knowing when and how often is far more difficult - that is why you girls discuss it endlessly.”

Oh us girls. Maybe this is what is wrong here within the department that is supposed to care for kids. You big brave men left it to the girls on account of raising the nation’s children being such a bloody tedious mind numbing topic. Now if a thread on nappy rash or teething had been opened I’d probably just step aside cause you might as well be over on BubHub.

“And that is my point. The original question was about smacking. I am saying smacking isn't good or bad per se. Bad outcomes are produced by bad parenting, not smacking. If you managed the impossible and stopped smacking, poor parents would find some other way to loose control.”

Pick up your brow baby; some parents aren’t looking for ways to lose control. I didn’t spend the last two decades on valium, I didn’t need to find control, it never went anywhere. You probably have no idea what behavior issues come with foster kids but they improve through painless parenting. I know this, I have seen the comparison.

I would suggest more parents DO AS I DO! But hey if they can’t or didn’t because they thought they turned out okay, I really don’t care as long as we’re talking the odd smack and not the odd beating.

But are you seriously suggesting that you are dubious that you can have a well rounded kid without smacking? This isn’t “insight” this is frightening. The best little kids are ones that come to me early enough that no smacking, or any other type of hurt ever entered their lives. They learn faster, react quicker, trust and cuddle more and aren’t as scared to try new things. Same with my own two.

Jewely, while I too admire your deeds, we all realise that foster-kids are a different class of problem completely, and require special handling.

I was trying, in my last post, to raise the issue of reasons for discipline. Discipline, is a last resort, whether a parent uses a smack or the removal of treats or whatever. I would think that environment plays an important part of a child's well-being.

I find it absurd that a parent should be surprised when, upon reaching adolescence, a child who has never been given the opportunity to take responsibility for themselves in a variety of situations, tell their parents where to stick it.

Discipline is only a part of raising children, before resorting to a smack, may be we should stop to think what brought on the bad behaviour to begin with.

As I stated previously; "No amount of discipline is going to help unless children get to test boundaries for themselves - discover the joys and the dangers of the world (within reason of course). We can't protect them from life, but we can help them to live it."

The topic is titled, "Do as I do" and leading by example is the best way, along with providing an environment in which a child learns that they are trusted and respected. With the trend towards overprotective parenting, how can anyone expect their kids to respect them? Respect and trust is a two way street - both sides have to earn it. By overprotecting children parents are saying they don't have enough trust in their kids.

A healthy supportive environment means that discipline becomes a rare occurrence and all the more powerful when it is required.

As Jewely says: "The best little kids are ones that come to me early enough that no smacking, or any other type of hurt ever entered their lives. They learn faster, react quicker, trust and cuddle more and aren’t as scared to try new things. Same with my own two."

“Jewely, while I too admire your deeds, we all realise that foster-kids are a different class of problem completely, and require special handling.”

Max, I raised my own two from their super painful natural births onwards. Admire that deed.

I am sure I have complained endlessly about my daughter – I swear it is her biological father’s genes at play, he was the top Asia Pacific Server dude at IBM, give a toss, he was an idiot no matter what his idiotic salary claimed him to be. I say “was”; he died two years ago, still none the wiser. He never smacked either though and nor does her step-father of 13 years.

At 17 she is still here driving me nuts, blames me for the weather no less, but never will she turn to me and say I ever bullied her or ever inflicted any pain to teach/control/raise her. Same with my boy who mostly has my genes.[grin]

You shouldn’t admire me Max, this should be common parenting practice.

PS.. OUG your e-mail doesn't work.

Jewely, no need to get personal, I too raised kids alone, from when my daughter, the youngest, was 18mths old. I delivered both the younger two myself, by accident, and had a nephew living with us off and on over the years. Given you needed to take the softly-softly approach with the foster kids, of course you did the same with your own, it would have been madness not to,consistency is all-important to kids.
I wouldn't worry too much about your daughter, she's still young, wait for the adult, there are changes still ahead yet.
And it ALREADY IS common parenting practice, that's why we have problems There will always be exceptions, you are obviously one, but my friends and family who followed that regime now complain that the adults are not close, and are very self-centred, no empathy or sensitivity, and envy me my own young adults and the close relationship we have. These are the same people who berated me for my parenting back then, and offered the same ideas you do.
I only offer what worked for us, and why I think it did. We totally agree that love and support, and being SEEN to care and listen, is important. I gave mine a firm set of rules and boundaries, within those they were free, and they could change, remove, or amend them by coming to me to discuss them, often successfully. One thing I did that horrified many was to declare that as of 15 years, any requests for permission to go or do anything would be met by a flat refusal, but if they came and TOLD me what and where and who, they had free rein. It showed I trusted them, and made them think too. One son chased home by the police, he and his mates were swinging on street-lights, a couple of drunk episodes,and a mystery w/e or two, unexplained to this day, and they turned out fine. If we believe we have raised them well, we MUST trust them, and be SEEN to do so, or the whole exercise was pointless.

Hey Max, I thought the personal stuff was part of my charm.[smile]

Actually I wonder if it was a bit chicken and the egg stuff. Did I parent the way I did because of the fosterkids or did I do well as a foster parent because of the way I already parented?

Bit of a mix I guess. My girl was 5 when I got my first two foster children but they both had a combination of disorders I already had the no smacking policy but as the numbers of children increased I really had to build more stategies for coping well and placing firm boundaries.

The strategies further helped me parent my own.

I have forbidden both my chldren to breed [grin] but I will be interested to see, if children do enter their lives, just what they learnt from being mini parents for a long time to many other small children.

I think I'll be dissapointed if they smack but it's not usually a battle I pick to fight.

Jewely
I found that you wrote at least twice about your daughter, in this forum.
This is not good! You are a friendly person to me but I disagree with you about your relations with your daughter. I have a similar problem with one from my three children.
I do not say anything I try to help it from far, from the background, My child, your child, they will create their future with their way.
No press, no disatisfaction, leave her alone,If you can, support her, when she need your support, but do it VERY CAREFULL, if she does not know it, even better. The problem is not to prove that you love her, (this is your problem) but to help her to find her way, to find her happiness.
How many times did you tell her that she has her father's gene? How many times did you tell her that your son is your gene? I had exactly the same problem!
If you have problems with your daughter this caused by you, if I have problem with one of my children I caused it!
Let's stop blaming our children and try to find ways to support them, hoping to improve our relations with them
BUT FIRST WE MUST LEARN TO TRUST AND RESPECT THEM! OK?
We, parents, must do the first step, and the second and the... until we find the right contact with our children.
All parents have some kind of problems with their children but let's leave our children far from our quiltes!
friendly.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Come on Antonios, I mention her at least twice in every thread.[smile] But yes you are right, I think I did cause whatever it is that makes her who she is and also the parts I don’t like.

I am wondering that maybe it was the foster kids. Jennie was born to be the baby and she never got that place in her family. In her 17 years she has had 108 younger siblings through me fostering.

She likes them, she is very good to them but does choose her favorites and spoils them rotten. But I think maybe there has always been some resentment amongst it all. She also has to say goodbye a lot and sometimes she gets really upset when it is a favourite child of hers and sometimes they are with us for a couple of years.

She is sick right now and refuses to go hospital. Instead her and her brother have gone two hours to Sydney for the night to meet friends. I am very angry this weekend and the respect is not going to be easy to find.

What is happening with your daughter?

Jewely
"What is happening with your daughter?" Nothing!
She is OK, she finished Adelaide University, married, has a son, her work here was not good enouph and returned with her family in Cyprus, where she found a good job.
Jewely TRY TO UNDERSTAND ME, DO NOT BE ANGRY WITH ME!
1. This is a family issue and I do not have the right to involve with it, if your cross is very heavy sent it to me!
2. Avoid to write family issues in public forums, this forum is not a family forum. What will happen if your daughter read about it?
3. I know that you hurt from it, You hurt very much, It is this hurt which makes you to write often about it. I wrote to you in an other thread about it, it is very late for you, accept the reality I am sure your relations with your daughter will improve.
Sorry!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

Jewely
1. When I said "if your cross is very heavy sent it to me! " I mean the CROSS of cause! Cross= the core of the problem, the most difficult part of the problem. The real meaning, I feel sorry, if I can do something to support you I will do.
2. I said one of my three children, I did say my daughter, I answered to you about my daughter.
3. I will never blame my children publicly, I am carefull in my relations with my children.
Now you are more angry with me, I understand you, Do you understand me? I try to help with a stupid way! You have right!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

No Antonios, I am not cross with you. You make plenty of sense and yes if I want to complain in public I should be over at a family website doing it. Or better yet, as you suggest, stop being so public about it altogether. You are a good man/father.

I will try and stop and continue to focus on the little foster children that are at risk of harm in the other thread.

Did we decide about smacking in this thread?

I don’t find others smacking a big deal but it is not for me or the children in my care.

If the children could vote I think I would win a "no smacking' vote! But then I guess if kids could decide they would also vote in ice-cream for breakfast.

DO NOT DO AS I DO!
I use the words "CROSS FOR" or "This cross is mine" "give me the cross" as a personal sacrification, as a personal duty, as a personal fight to find a solusion to a problem, as a personal mission, I take the cross for others or from others, BUT I do not know the "CROSS WITH", if it exists and what it means.
When a person writes on a forum for a personal or family problem most posters try to stay far from it, I do always the opposite. I do not care for the rules, I do not try to seem polite, most times for me polite means hypocrite, BUT I TRY TO BE USEFULL ESPECIALY FOR CHILDREN OR YOUNG PEOPLE.
This strange behave some times create problems to me!
One time a man was bad to his gerlfriend and I decided to tell her to leave him because I thought that she will have problem with him
I was unlucky and I did not have the opportunity to speak to her , after I changed mind and I did not tell her anything.
They married , they have a child and always I fill bad when I think about it.
I TRY TO HELP OTHERS AND SOME TIMES I CREATE PROBLEMS, MAINLY TO MYSELF!
OF CAUSE MOST TIMES I AM USEFULL...
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

"I TRY TO HELP OTHERS AND SOME TIMES I CREATE PROBLEMS, MAINLY TO MYSELF! OF CAUSE MOST TIMES I AM USEFULL..."

You are a teasure Antonios. I say again, you are a good man. The fact you are not perfect is a comfort and in no way a dissapointment.

I will not take the cross, it is to heavy for me honey. This guilt you must let go now, the girl made her own choice and you told me to respect our young and the decisions they make.

That cross is hers now.