"["whats 38 thousand dead sheep from stress on boats' For eg"

Taryn, thats not actually what I said, but as you don't seem to
have understood the arguments made about sheep deaths on a boat,
I will explain it to you as nicely as possible :)

So let me explain it this way: Around 250'000 people a year
die in Australia, from all sorts of causes. People live to
be about 70, for sake of the argument. If you put Aussies
on a luxury liner with all mod cons, there will still be
deaths on board. Fact is, no matter what your species, if you
risk living, you risk dying.

Sheep live to about 5-6 years, so when you put 4 million
on boats, some of them are going to die from various causes.
Nobody has shown that stress is what kills sheep on a ship.
So 38k out of 4 million sheep, or less then 1%, is not something
incredibly bad, given that 100'000 sheep per week die in
Australian paddocks.

But lets just look at the stress argument. Sheep attacked by
wild dogs and ripped to bits, dying slowly, sheep attacked by
blowflies and dying over days, whilst thousands of maggots
bury into their bodies, that is real stress, happening here
and now every day! Its also suffering on a mass scale.

Now compare that to a floating feedlot, where animals are fed,
watered, have shelter, have a whole host of regulations designed
to be concerned about their welfare, are even gaining weight,
99% of them doing just fine, that is no more stressful then you
and I face every day in our lives, when we board a bus or
just live in this world. Low level stress is part of natural
living, for whatever species.

Antje,
This is everybody's forum and people don't have to agree with me just because I started the discussion. You're very welcome to express your opinion. Anyway I did agree that you could take over this forum if you wanted to- anytime! Perhaps you will be better at overviewing this discussion than I am right now. I'm willing to hand it over to you, and I'll just be a contributor. Do you want to?

Well yes, I admitted that I have fallen back on my former believe as I explained that I want to be consistent in saying that religion has no place in politics at all.
I am pro secular state; I always have been in the past but lately I twisted around my reasoning to fit my agenda and I admit this was wrong. Yabby merely reminded me of my twisted reasoning. (I think my reasoning took a little holiday on a cruise, lol).

I am normally not stuck in my opinions for the sake of being right. Sometimes people's opinions change through discussing things with others- looking at things from different angles or gaining more information about something.

If I do not want religions to interfere in certain matters like gay or women's issues I cannot expect them to interfere in matters that suit my agenda, in this case animal welfare.

They do have to speak out though, I do not mean that they should not care about it and as I said (please read what I said in a previous post) they should speak out to their flock, they can voice their opinion openly, but should really stay out of politics altogether.

The title: "Church leaders turn their backs on animal cruelty" does not change- leaders are supposed to preach to their flock to do something about animal cruelty.

Cilivia.

No its ok. You dont have to hand your forum over to me just because I pointed out you seemed to be different.

Thank You very much indeed for the offer. I am flattered.
People read all the comments.

You made some very worth while points.
If you ever get sick of the forum or too busy I would certainly take it over.
This issue is huge so this forum should not be closed.

To change your mind after reading comments I should think might be the point of these forums.

So would you say it would be reasonable then for animal welfare to be taught for eg in bible classes? Is this the type of role you mean?

Did you see the post that was put up about the quite recent press conference for eg put out by Dr Hugh Wirth, President of RSPCA.?

He dedicated the whole of his press release on that particular subject.

He spoke of the problem in Australia regarding animal welfare and the lack of guidence in the past from Churches towards animal welfare.
To whom then do you think he was speaking?

Wonder why the president of the RSPCA asked them to help the animals.

Do you think the president of the RSPCA has done the wrong thing speaking of the problem of animal cruelty to and connecting it to our Christian value?

I thought he was spot on .

I might add he also made it very clear that the general public had a big role to play as well.

I guess as RSPCA President hes just doing the best he can by pointing out that until the Church Changes its attitude toward their reponsibilty toward Gods creatures great and small they will continue to suffer.
At least thats how I read it.
I will [post it again so every body can see.]

As for Yabby we have all seen his support for the cruel live export trade so I as they say up here , I am leaning.

Dont you worry about that

"This issue is huge so this forum should not be closed."
I agree, Antje, I won't close it as it is a topic that needs to be discussed.

"So would you say it would be reasonable then for animal welfare to be taught for eg in bible classes? Is this the type of role you mean?"
Yes, Antje that would be one great thing religions need to consider.
Could people who know more about it than I do (since I had a non-religious upbringing) give some ideas of how religions could play a specific role without getting involved in politics? Three things I can think of:

* Like Antje suggested already, discussing animal welfare in bible classes.
* Preaching in church to the flocks about animal welfare.
* Fundraising- I think that church members could be good at that since their involvement with charity. Charity is always based on helping people, which is a good thing, but there should also be a place in their charity work to support animal issues.

Any other suggestions?

"Did you see the post that was put up about the quite recent press conference for eg put out by Dr Hugh Wirth, President of RSPCA.?"
No, could you place the link here, I haven't been able to find it. I am very interested in reading it.

"Do you think the president of the RSPCA has done the wrong thing speaking of the problem of animal cruelty to and connecting it to our Christian value?"
No, I think this is a great thing. I think Animal Welfare should be an Australian value, and since Christians are also Australians, they should adopt this value like everyone else.

Yabby
Well now where is your new girlfriend?
Yabby and mrs pig , Gee and shes going with you now to the middle east as well.I thought they treated sheep badly on those boats but a pork Wow.
Seriously Yabby before I answer your post, which I thank you for I ask you nicely ass I can not to get personal. If you dont like my answers tough.In return I will be as polite as possible to you ok.
Please dont call me stupid city slicker or any of the things.

Remember somebody has to arrange your trip yet as Ozgirl and wendy are not able to right now. The good thing is I can still get advise from them to ensure its a "very special" trip indeed.


Now you rubbish about people who die on luxury liners and compairing it with what those poor sheep cattle camels goats and many more go through is an insult to my intellergence so i wont even bother with that.

For the reast I think its best to answer you with written numbers and facts put out by the RSPCA National Office.office.
That would be the People in charge of Animal Welfare Welfare In Australia.
Would that be fair to say Yabby that they might be informed?or do you know more than the RSPCA National President. ?
May I refer everybody to three full google pages none less as to what the RSPCA say about live exports. I happen to agree with them Yabby. There is my answer to you questions.>
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&cr=countryAU&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=rspca+hugh+wirth+live+exports+shame+&spell=1

Now apart from that I see no reason to try to stop any venture that any person is working towards.
I have read all the posts and looked at all the web pages and yes I am still learning. I like the look of this link with land farms and the people who are buying the meat from overeas. I think it could be good for this country.

Taryn, alot of that stuff from Hugh is old stuff, from years ago.

In 2005 new standards were introduced, updated recently again and
they will continue to be upgraded. Lots has happened, old boats
canned, all sorts of stuff.

I have yet to see Hugh comment on the new standards, IIRC RSPCA
even had an input into them, when they were written.

Yes years ago there were various cowboys in the trade, that needed
fixing and that has been done. Now I could post you endless links
to the Nazi times and tell you how bad the Germans are. You would
have to admit that we have moved on since then. Don't you think
that if there is a problem with the live trade today, that
we should stick to information of today, not from years ago?