One point that Yabby makes and is relating to this church thing, the church and women's issues is a good argument too and not to be ignored - I think I’ve said somewhere why I would like to see the churches speak out against animal cruelty- can’t remember where, the posts are so long!

It is a bit of a conflict: Yes on the one hand we want the church to stay out of issues like women’s rights, gay issues etc, but on the other hand we want the church to interfere with animal rights.
This is a good point to discuss as I felt this was a bit in conflict as well.

I’m thinking: well, whether I like it or not, the church DOES interfere with politics and DOES for instance, try to hold back same sex marriage, and DOES try to prevent abortion (while doing nothing to promote contraception btw). If they are already interfering in these other issues, then I would expect them to interfere with animal issues as well. Even though I’d rather shove ‘m out of politics altogether.

I can see how someone else might look at it differently and say: you cannot ask the church to board a boat of sheep if you don’t like them on the operating tables inside the abortion clinics.

If anyone has any other view to help solve this conflict, yes please- I find it difficult to just see just one side of the issue (because I would prefer a (more) secular state).

Although -women and homosexual people can defend themselves- animals can’t. It would show the caring side of churches to be on the animals’ side and defend them.

OZGIRL,
I’m not in the mood for drama. I left you a note on the Steve Irwin thread this morning

Antje,
A beautiful dream of the pope! Thank you for sharing that! Loved it.

I’m sure church leaders would love this dream as well. Would be good to enclose this dream story whenever we write to a church about animal issues.

Ozgirl
I hope you still want to join pale.

Cilivia

Thanks for your comments perhaps I didnt make myself clear.

Nobody is telling aboriginal people they must work in abattoirs although we would train anybody interested.

Aboriginal people have stations and land they cant afford to do anything with.

So if they are interested they could just be ranchers of goat, shep, beef, vegies, camel, roo buffalow. bullock fish farms to metion a few.

In other words they can made money sitting on their verandah.

If they want to get involved further we would welcome value adding.
Vaule adding is products from the inside of the animal made into small goods.
At the moment of course all those jobs are shipped overseas for jobs for their people.

Here is a list of jobs offered to aboriginal and regional people involving farms and abattois.
IT people.
office staff,
health,
cleaners,
electrians,
plumbers
packing, storeage ,
drivers,
vets
Drs,
Slaughter men
Boneing room men
tanniers
Tourism guides
Small countrry shops and staff

The countries importing Australian animals such as cattle shhep goat horeses camel live are interested in capturing the value adding and employment oportunities at their end. They employ stategic measures, in the form of tariff escalation and non tariff barriers, to encourage this.
this enables them to establish domestic manufacturing and processing industries, based on imports of raw input materials.
This furthermore acts as a disincentive for value adding in Australia
Given the enpurous benifits of value adding both the Australian ecomomy and to the Australian community, the economics of the live animal trade deserves both Government and industry Attention

And I left one for you Celivia...

Cilivia
The church does speak out about gays and gay marriages all the time.

They also speak about many issues.

They are most certainly involved in politics and have been for a long time. Maybe Steve fielding coming out is a good thing.[ who knows]

The point is they do not speak out about Animal cruelty at all.
It isnt even on their agenda.
its not considered a issue of importance.
That i got from the horses mouth.

I also feel there is a great difference between preaching about gay marriages and standing up against blatent barbaric cruelty.
Which is everybodys job.

The fact that they all get on the anti abortion forum preaching about some thing less than a grain of rice while living feeling animals suffer beyond belief is truely sickening.

Celivia, your posts once again highlighted to me, the so called
city-country gap. You are shocked by sheep, tied by the legs,
popped into the boot of a car. Rest assured, it happens all over
country Australia! Shearing teams want meat, thats how they take
their meat home. Most farmers move individual sheep around their
farms that way. Tie their legs up, on the back of the ute for a while, etc etc. Sheep are not your pet poodle dear :)

Wendy clearly does not understand market economics, introduced to
Australia by Keating and continued up to today. Abattoirs are built
where they are most cost effective, its up to the owners of scarce
capital to decide where that is. If they get it wrong, they go broke
and lose their capital.

Aboriginals, along with anyone else, are free to apply for the many
jobs in the meat and farming industries, widely advertised. Virtually
all offer training as part of the deal, for those interested, but
you cannot compel people.

Aborginal Affairs, it used to be Atsic, have billions of $ of taxpayers money to spend, for various employment schemes, business schemes etc, you name it, money is spent on it.

Don't confuse that with private enterprise. Wendy is suggesting
social engineering, that went out 20 years ago. Its not the job
of farmers to subsidise anyone. If it makes commercial sense
to ship cattle to Indonesia, rather then put up with unreasonbly
militant unions in the meat industry, so be it! As long as those
cattle are transported humanely, there is not an issue.

Australian Govts are free to drop the many taxes and charges that
they impose on the meat processing industry, from payroll taxes
onwards. They haven't done that, so clearly they don't really
care about local processing or keeping it local