Yes, I'm with Belly on this, and particularly the comment about the destruction of the Union movement. I've been watching "Bastard Boys" the doco that was made about the Patrick's waterfront battle ten years ago, and it was absolutely riveting (I got the DVD from the ABC shop too).

Now it seems that the unions have no powers at all. Belly, I'd really be interested in your thoughts on this. I've always been a union supporter and have acted as a union delegate, back when we had some powers to back any negotiations we went into. Now when people have problems with their employers they seem to have nowhere to go.

Howard destroyed all that, and now it seems that unions do not even have "right of entry" powers in workplaces any more.

Many years ago when I worked as an industrial advocate on the waterfront, what the wharfies wanted they got - until the Patrick affair.

Nicky

Thanks Nicky for the opportunity, do you know I truly think the day will come that conservatives will understand unions are not all bad?
Workchoices did not kill unions, it was not even the start, Hawk and Keiting started reining unions in.
Just maybe, well in truth, it was a needed action.
But 1996 went too far, all unions took the blame for some.
John Howard had history of HATING unions, look years into his past, and his acts against the postal workers union.
Bizarrely I agreed something had to be done, extremists communists, are not Representative of Aussie workers.
One day, leaders of conservatives and unions may find ground we can meet on, my first loyalty is to unions, not a party.
It however is not even a chance we can cut out ties to Labor if the other camp is trying to kill or stop us geting a simple fair go for workers.
Nicky today, every day I must walk a hard road just to fix things that we once only had to ask, to see it done.
safe work in construction is under threat, bosses want productivity not safe work.
3 times this year, already, I have had to defend workers who bought safety issue to bosses.
In the middle of last weeks heat no gloves to take ice, you will be sacked for using hands[I agree]ice is first defense from heat stroke, no gloves for a week, we got them in ten minutes.
Site safety bloke[ex union delegate] told mass tool box they should not be a rude word for complainers!
workchoices still lives in the minds of some who should know better.

Foxy “The Libs want to give tax cuts- from which only the
rich will benefit.”

If a small number of tax-payers are paying, whilst they will be the only ones to benefit from a taxes reduction or removal, it leaves those individuals with more money in their pocket, to spend on what they decide is important… and that might be things like more restaurant meals and entertainment (luxury discretionary stuff) which better secures the jobs of hospitality workers.

“The Liberals did not object to 'fat-cat' bonuses
and salaries for big businesses and banking.”

A government cannot and should not decree how much a private company or even a company owned by publicly subscribed and listed shares should pay their executives, the board of directors and share holders should alone decide that.

“The Libs. tried to destroy the union system.”

The libs reigned in the excesses of belligerent unionists.

“The Libs. introduced GST - which makes it harder
for the poor to afford living expenses.”

GST replaced an bundle inefficient, ambiguous, complex, differentiating sales taxes. The only reason the tax take increased has been because labor state governments have not retired the taxes they promised to remove when they signed up to receive the GST revenue

“The Libs. want to privatise the health system.”

They want to maintain the plural system, Hawke tried to strangle the private side of the plural system which had existed for decades

“The Libs want to increase funding to elitist schools.”

Schooling can readily be provided in a voucher deremption system which gives the parent appropriate benefit whilst maintaining individual choice. Any school system which denies parental discretion falls into the risk of providing state approved propaganda instead of education for children.

“The Libs. tried to abandon rail-services to rural areas.”

If the performance of the Minister of Transport in Victoria is any guide, listening to the bingling incompetence and union cronyism which has been happening every morning for months in Melbourne, Lynn Koski has abandoned rail services in metro areas as well.

There must always be an expectation that public subsidy is never unlimited.

Col,

"A government cannot and should not decree how much a private company or even a company owned by publicly subscribed and listed shares should pay their executives, the board of directors and share holders should alone decide that."

I'd agree with this comment if the market worked in a fair, even and transparent manner. The trouble is that sometimes shareholders are fed BS. They are told things like the company is doing well, has met all its targets etc and 12 months down the track it loses half its value because of a share crash due to a hitherto unknown (to the shareholder) botched acquisition or whatever. They are on the wrong side of asymmetrical information equation. At that time the company directors walk off with their golden parachutes which they have had plenty of opportunity to organise while the shareholders get the leftovers. In this case, the government intervenes to at least staunch the imbalances and deter other managers from doing the same thing. It's not ideal, but should the government just leave the shareholders on the ground bleeding?

I couldn't agree more with your comments about the GST. It is a much fairer tax in the sense that the burden is spread out over the whole economy (which is pretty much everyone) and the amount you pay is proportional to the amount you spend. It can't get much fairer than that. If people are still paying too much tax overall, it's because state governments are greedy and will not retire all the inefficient taxes, charges and levies that make the system as burdensome, ad hoc and inefficient as it is.

RobP "I'd agree with this comment if the market worked in a fair, even and transparent manner. The trouble is that sometimes shareholders are fed BS. "

I agree with your observation. The issue lies with the actions of the board of Directors, who are these days required to act in the interests of the company, under sufferance if thet are proven to do otherwise.

That part of commercial law (directors duties and liability) has been changed in recent years. In fact anyone who is part of a non-commercial organisation, such as a professional body or social club, even thouguh they might undertake duties for free, needs to check their personal liability under the changes.

On a personal note anyone unsure of the ethicacy of the directors should sell the chares as fast as they can... it is that simple... trust the board or invest elsewhere.

All that aside, the introduction of any amount government meddlers or regulation into the process of executive salary packaging, would add nothing to the safety / security of the share holders.

It would merely inject another layer of bureaucratic incompetence into decision making.

Thanks for your expression of agreement re GST

GST is a fair tax, in that it is applied to a broad base, which uniformly taxes people's individual "consumption", rather than loading the burden of tax generation upon to those who happen to generate income or those who happen to purchase a particular class of goods

The chocolate as "confectionary" (36% Sales tax) versus chocolate for "cooking" (zero% sales tax) being one of the most ludicrous examples and which are now both taxed 10% under GST, an amount which the purchaser can reclaim (through BAS statements), if they are not the "ultimate consumer" and use the chocolate in the manufacture of (say) muffins, which they then on-sell and levy 10% tax on the price of the muffin.

Belly, thanks so much for that - it's good to get a perspective from someone who believes in unions as they should be. If you didn't see it, I'd really recommend you have a look at "Bastard Boys" (it's been on the ABC lately). It actually finished up as a fairly balanced view of the dispute - although I despised Chris Corrigan at the time, he was finally portrayed as something approaching a human being. Not so Peter Reith and Howard, however. I remember when it was going on, Reith even made the mistake of visiting the Newcastle wharves at the time. But the outcome of that eventually was that so many men with no skills other than those associated with work on the wharves were put out of work in the end, and of course BHP in Newcastle closed down too.

I was a CPSU workplace delegate in the late 1990s and immediately Howard came to power, so many jobs were cut by hatchet-man Max Moore Wilton.

RobP and Col, your assessments were pretty spot on too., We were conned into accepting the "never, ever" GST on the basis that so many other taxes would disappear, and it didn't happen.

Overall, it makes you pretty cynical about both sides of government as Rudd's policies were so close to Howard's prior to the election. The problem is the human face of the job losses; the people who thought the "good times" would go on forever, bought houses with large mortgages, cars, and amassed large credit card debt. That's why I think this "bail-out" needs more thought. I think personal bankruptcies will soar as well as business ones. People will use it to retire debt, not for spending. Self-funded retirees are no longer able to survive and superannuation funds have lost so much value. And we have allowed so many manufacturing jobs to go off-shore as we import more and more second-grade rubbish from China. Try buying any technology that is not made in China. In fact, you can't even buy greeting cards that aren't made in China. Go figure.

Nicky