Malcolm Turnbull and his party are not fully supporting
the bail out package of our PM. The same is happening
with the Republicans in the US.

Are these opponents playing politics at their own risk?

Or are there good reasons for their behaviour?

Your thoughts please?

Foxy,Kevin is trying to solve a debt problem by incurring more debt.The $40 billion must be borrowed by the RBA and probably from one of the Central banks of the US.Our children will then have to pay for this in the future when rates are much higher.

There are better ways of stimulating spending than just giving money away.Kevin firstly should be a strong leader making clear and unambigious decisions.Currently he is warning of impending disaster and throwing money at people as a panacea.

I would liken Kevin's performance to him shouting fire in a picture threatre,not calming panic and not mentioning where the fire exits are.Fear and panic kills many more than the actual fire.

The money should be spent on income producing assets such as infrastructure.Give Australian Companies contracts so the money stays here.Instigate advertising campaigns letting people know why they should spend at this moment.

Foxy,
I feel sorry for Libs!
They have lost their voters and supporters, they have isolated from Australian society!
I realy feel sorry for them!
If they supported the package they would called ALP'tale and they would lose even their last remaing fanatic supporters if not they will have problems with the rest of our society.
Unfortunatly Howard did not damage only our society but he destroyed the Liberal Party.
For me the best solution for the Libs is if most liberal politicians go home and the rest of them like PETROS GEORGIOU create a MODERN, DEMOCRATIC, LIBERAL PARTY,withouht the extremists and super extremists who scare the people and isolate the party from Australian society.
We need a strong opposition party, any democracy needs strong opposition party but I do not think that Australians could forget what Howard government did to them. Do not forget that Howard did not elect even as MP.
Demolish the Liberal Party and start from zero, there are many good lib politicians and they could play a positive role in Australia.
We need them and it is very sad that they blocked in Howard's Party.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Foxy although I do not feel it I am older than you, have seen all this before.
Turnbull is not breaking new ground for Australian conservative party's.
Opposition for opposition sake, even near or total lies have been used often.
May I invite conservative supporters to challenge the following facts?
A budget deficit is coming without any so called hand out.
We intend to spend 2% gross national income America 7%.
Tax breaks have failed in the past to help at all see Ronald Regan's effort.
Over 100 million or is it billion dollar short fall in tax revenue has been forecast in the last two weeks.
And not for scoring points or slagging of the opposition I have zero doubt if in power Turnbull would spend about the same.
Zero doubts however he would focus much more on the rich, never a party to leave it mates in the lurch the poor matter far less to them.
This crisis may lead us to very bad places, if we are to get out, we will, it will be using new ideas and the new leadership we and America are lucky to have.
Turnbull is in the saddle of his party, his task must be to turn that party's head, understand he must not blindly follow the same American party that did far more to champion the reasons for our problems than any party.

To call this a bail out package is dishonest. Giving people who don't need 42 billion dollars is an exercise in gross stupidity especially at the start of a world recession. Why this money is not spent on the hopelessly run down health systems (all mismanaged by State Labour Governments) defies logic. Unless Mr Turnbull is removed by the next election the Liberals will not be getting my vote. He is a poor imitation of Mr Rudd as far as I'm concerned. Mr Rudd will leave Government having been seen as a sugar daddy who has shown no clue as to how to manage an economy. Can't say though we were not warned before the last election. The ones who had it so good under Howard are about to regret the day they voted for Mr Rudd.

"Malcolm Turnbull and his party are not fully supporting the bail out package of our PM.

Are these opponents playing politics at their own risk?

Or are there good reasons for their behaviour?"

I believe Turnbull and the Liberal Party would face graver risks if they just rubber-stamped the deal. Even if he loses in the Parliamentary process and to the weight of public opinion, that's still OK for Turnbull as he can always claim he was keeping rampant spending in check. He's probably calculated that the bill can get through without the Libs' support.

On the other hand, if he meekly rubber-stamps the deal, he can easily be portrayed as a pale imitation of the Government. He will soon end up in no-man's land as Kim Beazley did.

Anyway, as Obama has said, a country is always better served when its senior politicians think independently rather than through the prism of group-think. For this reason alone, I think Turnbull has done the right thing for him and his party.

An opposition does its job when it rightly questions a controversial bill before parliament where there is good reason to do so, and if not done purely in the interests of 'opposing'. There is certainly room for compromise and negotiation in the proposals being put forward by the Rudd government.

Turnbull has a habit of posturing and comes across as insincere so it is often difficult to assess how genuine his motives in putting forward his party's opposition to the package.

I think stimulus in the form of handouts is not good politics and could be seen as pork barrelling. Handouts that will only stimulate 'flash-in-the-pan' spending spree will only register a blip in the retail sector.

While pensioners and carers were long overdue for some financial relief in the pre-Christmas package, handouts to families who remain employed and still earning a reasonable income was a waste of taxpayer money.

Stimulus should, in my view, stick to stimulating the economy and many have made suggestions already in other threads. eg. spending on much needed infrastructure to ensure jobs, contract to Australian companies (as Arjay said), stimulate growth in the renewable energy sector and don't play up to knee-jerk populist expectations in making unreasonable cuts to the public service.

Dear Arjay,

We've been paying for the past debts of previous Australian
governments in far lesser financial crises. The PM's bail out
package is proposing to encourage infrastructure projects that
the States have already willingly accepted and planned for, that
are now being held up by the Liberal Party.

The Liberal Premier of WA is willing to give 100% co-operation to
the Government, however the process is being held up in the
Senate by the Greens and the Independents who want to have a
better understanding of the total process (as well as push
their own political agendas). We will have to wait until
next Thursday to find out their final decision.

Dear Belly,

I fully agree, tax cuts benefit the rich who constitute
a small percentage of the population and are pre-dominant
supporters of the Liberal Party.

The Government's bail-out package is in the interest of all
Australians, be they working and paying taxes or heading into
unemployment lines.

Dear runner,

The aim of the bail-out package is to revive the national
health care, education infra-structure system which has been
run-down by the previous Liberal Government over the past
twelve years.

Dear Antonios,

I've been watching Turnbull's rise to power within the
Liberal Party and it appears his present political stance
is far more conservative than his previous more liberal
views when he started the Republican movement.
I would assume that in order to maintain his current
leadership with the Liberal Party he is catering to the
whims and dictates of the conservatives.

All you have to do is watch "Question Time," on TV and
watch Turnbull's wry smile to Government proposals which
to the keen observer would signal he agrees, but has to
humour the Party.

Dear RobP,

Call me a cynic but it strikes me that
Turnbull is always looking out for No.1,
i.e. - Turnbull. Otherwise he'd lose the
leadership.

It has been pointed out by pundits that
Peter Costello is waiting on the back bench
for Turnbull to make an 'uneducated' move.

Rudd picked up on that fact at a recent 'Question
Time.'

Dear Pelly,

The PM is giving a small assistance to families in need.
The bulk of the package is going towards hospitals, schools,
and infra-structure which the states are ready to proceed
with as soon as the Senate approves.

As Olivier Blanchard, chief economist of the International
Monetary Fund, said in The Economist last week:

"Do too much rather than too little. Delays in financial
packages have cost a lot already. Further rounds of
debate will stoke uncertainty and make things worse."

As pointed out in The Age newspaper, 7th Feb. 2009.
These are not normal times. When the International Monetary
Fund urges governments to do whatever it takes to avoid a
depression, you have to be worried.

“The Government's bail-out package is in the interest of all Australians…”

Is it Foxy? Can we be sure?

If it is, is it being conducted in the best possible manner?

If the situation is really so urgent, then why isn’t a lot more than 42b $ being spent?

I deplore Rudd’s rather dictatorial style of just coming out with a plan and telling us that this is how it will be. He really needs to consult widely with experts on major decisions like this.

He’s not an expert in this field. Neither is his small band of advisers.

Why can’t he set up a taskforce to solicit the opinions of academics and business people, so that the best possible approach can be determined? This could be done very quickly. Then he’d have the backing that would engender the support of the general community.

Turnbull was right not to back the bailout package in its current form. It was reasonable for him to say the Libs support it in principle but that the details needs to be much clearer and we need to have much more confidence that it will work in the way that it is supposed to. But I would have preferred him to have taken a harder line and demanded that the whole concept be very carefully scrutinised to determine whether it is actually reasonable or not.

Dear Foxy,

I wouldn't call you a cynic for having that view. There are lots of other people who have a similar view about Turnbull, so I daresay there's some truth to the claim ... perhaps in his past life? But there has to be some ego and competitiveness in an effective PM. Would you put your trust in a skinny chef?

My view is coloured by what I have heard him say over the past 10 or so years. I think there's a decent person in there, but also a strong person if he needs to be. Call me starry-eyed, but I think it's people like Turnbull who are the ones that will make the most difference in public life when they get their chance in the future. It's exactly those with potential who have not had a chance to shine in the past, that are the ones worth perservering with IMO.

Costello's had his chance and achieved little.

Dear Ludwig,

Because of the seriousness and gravity of the
financial crisis the Prime Minister has to act
fast, other wise it will be too late for any
bail-out. His advisers are not just a small band
of people - I believe they include economists
from the International Monetary Fund and
The Reserve Bank.

Dear RobP,

I also liked Turnbull and the political strength
that he showed in the past. I had such great
expectations of him, that's why I'm disappointed
in his current stand - which I feel is merely
tactics, and doesn't suit him. But let's wait and
see what tomorrow brings. I agree with you about
Costello.

“Because of the seriousness and gravity of the financial crisis the Prime Minister has to act fast, other wise it will be too late for any bail-out.”

Foxy, this is what we are being told. But how true is it?

Making sure that the expenditure is directed in the best manner possible is vastly more important than getting it happening tomorrow instead of two weeks or a month down the track.

“His advisers are not just a small band of people - I believe they include economists from the International Monetary Fund and The Reserve Bank.”

He surely should be getting advice from across the whole spectrum of concerns and not advice that is apparently strongly biased towards the interests of big business or continuous-growth economics. And he needs to be seen by the whole populace to be doing this. This could indeed be conducted very quickly.

We are really at a major point in our national history, where it is of the utmost importance that we work out how to modify the flawed system that has landed us in this mess and spend the money accordingly.

Runner I have never agreed with anything you post on any subject.
And if I could understand your latest post I would be unlikely to agree with it.
I however got the bit that saw you ask why Rudd did not mention the bail out before the election, before the crisis?
I note no one spoke about the budget being in deficit without the bail out, or compared our spending with Americas.
No one highlighted IMF and world banks support for this type of help not tax breaks.
This IS a crisis, we do not yet know where it will take us, forget being isolated, if America suffers we do too.
Every dollar in so called hand outs , like every other one spent has a ripple effect, it go,s from hand to hand.
And some of those who get it may buy the new fridge they have needed or washing machine.
Some with a few kids could at last have enough for a holiday.
For sure the economy will be the benefactor , much of the money being a life raft for small businesses.
Foxy good thread, it will bring many posts many ideas but we are governed well and Turnbull is skating on thin ice.
His party may dump him, not a wise move but more than a chance they will.
I have no doubt, none, that opposition in this country should have remembered it was policy's like this that lost them an election not won one.

This has got to be a first; Ludwig supports Turnbull !! !! (:>\

http://www.youtube.com/user/MalcolmTurnbullMP

This evening on the 6pm news, Wayne Swan gave me the impression that he doesn’t really know what is happening with this enormous expenditure.

Someone suggested that he spend some of it on improving bikeways, in lieu of rising fuel costs and the end of the oil era.

He said that he would look at it, with a tone and expression indicating that he hadn’t even thought of the idea.

Well, this is exactly the sort of input that Rudd & co should be seeking from experts, and perhaps the general public across the country, before they commit to particular huge expenditures and projects. And again, with a concerted effort this could be undertaken very quickly.

I don’t have lot of confidence that Swan, or Rudd, really know what they are doing.

Does anyone here on OLO have a high degree of confidence in them?

I think the idea from the Libs is (and I may be wrong) is that the debt it would cause is to big when it most likely won't work anyway (as the previous one didn't)...

I am not sure I haven't been near a tv for a few days, but the other option that Mr Rudd and Mr Obama are not fans off is tax breaks... There are other ways of thinking but for this stim pack stuff...

Mr Turnbull said he knew the Libs would cop a bashing for in opinion polls etc for it...

Ludwig,

I have zero confidence in them, and that's not cuz I am a Liberal voter... It's cuz Wayne Swan has no experience and Mr Rudd just seems so lost.

Foxy I suspect that in the short term it will hurt Turnbull and the Libs in the polls. I'm not convinced that the handout component is a good strategy.

If they want to simulate individual consumption without giving income tax breaks then maybe they could significantly reduce the GST for a set period (say 2 years). I can see the benefit in big infrastructure spends at the moment, projects that would create jobs in Australia rather than improve electronic retailers profits. Projects that would put us in a better position for the future.

R0bert

Well Ludwig you asked, do not devalue my comment because I am ALP.
Swan concerns me, Rudd thrills me.
I am content on this matter Turnbull has far less support than Rudd, internationally.
His actions assure me of another election victory for the ALP.
This world crisis has its roots in greed, criminal activity and merchant bankers run riot.
If just the dollars lost in Australian super funds could be returned to the economy we would be throwing a great deal more at the problem than we are.
Turnbull is a merchant banker how could you trust any of them?

The caution expressed by Ludwig and Meredith is well founded.

Apparently the incumbent labor government is taking advise from a past prime minister, Paul Keating.

If we are to base fiscal prudence, including the ability to read the signs and future indicators, financially speaking

The first question (rhetorical) to ask is

The state of the economy on the close of Keatings government ?

The state of the economy on the close of the Coalition government ?

What the incumbent government has “achieved” since ?

So to the question

“are there good reasons for their (liberal opposition) behaviour?”

Going on their successful record in government and their position the house,

I would think it was naïve in the extreme to presume they would not

Kowtow to the Krudd/Keating economic misinterpretations / misrepresentations of the facts or

have a range of far better strategies and tactics to deal with any crisis at any time on any topic.

I read the news papers … is Turnbull out of touch etc… because he is not falling into line with Krudd.

I do not expect the leading party in opposition to not challenge and debate the government proposals,

It is in part, why they are there.


Having seem recent screw-ups of policy by Krudd & Co… the bank guarantee fiasco, which caused a run on the superfunds and the “less than stellar” success of the last “stimulus package, for example

It is only by trying to question the wisdom of the incumbent government that we might avoid another debacle.

Then we get down to the public perceptions

If Turnbull follows along, he is seen as weak

If Turnbull objects he is seen as apparently negative and out of touch today

But tomorrow or the day after, when we see another glorious failure of economic policy and the ghost of Keating casting his shadow of doom across the nation,

Turnbull will be the one, still sat in opposition and saying

“Don’t blame me, I told you so.

Maybe you should think where to place your cross for the next election”

Yes Col,you and I have warned about Kevin's flaws for some time.The stimulus package will not work if Kevin is incapable of showing positive leadership.What a stupid psychology to warn about how bad things will get,depressing expectation even more,then throw money around which most will either save or pay off their mortages.

So the banks get more cash and the money does not lubricate the economy.

The title should read,"Labor has lost the plot."

Well I tend to think that the rudd gov failed to learn from the previous bail out as much of this money was in fact wasted.

Try this as a solution;
Rather than hand out money why not allow every eligable person to go into thier local medicare office, present thier ELIGABLE receipt (yet to be determined) and receive a refund of a pre-determined percentage of its value.

Now they could do this for as long as it takes until their allocation is exhausted.

Let's say;
100% for schooling needs
100% for other essensial items purchased, with the redemption rate falling according to the allowable percentage of each item as determined by the regulators.

Don't you think this would be a better way. At least the kids would receive a decent meal as grog, cigs and gambling would be excluded.

Hey we could even expand a system like this for ALL FAMILY ASSISTANCES PAYMENTS.

I think it’s Labour who has lost the plot–short-term electoral popularity is not what it's about. Many voters are under the misapprehension that Labours giving away freebies.

When they wake up to the fact that it’s their money Labours hastily handing out , and they or their children will have to pick up the tab –how long will this popularity last?

“What a stupid psychology to warn about how bad things will get,depressing expectation even more,then throw money around which most will either save or pay off their mortages. So the banks get more cash and the money does not lubricate the economy.”

YES Arjay!

This stimulus package might have some effect but it would be SO inefficient, with an enormous amount of money being sidelined from the main purpose of stimulating economic turnover.

The money needs to be spent in a manner that much more directly helps those in need.

Why not double the dole or something like that, so that those who lose their jobs can get by? Unemployment payments are less than half of the minimum wage. Money put straight into the pockets of those who need it most when times are tough is money that will go straight back into the economy, to a much greater extent than with the current proposal.

Yes, this is a reactive strategy. But it has the great advantage of putting the money directly where it is needed. If it is conducted in association with proactive stuff as well, then we’d really be on the right track.

And for goodness sake, when is Rudd going to drop the immigration rate? Given that jobs are so important, how is it possible that he can be maintaining this horrendously huge influx of people, the vast majority of which need jobs!?

We need an immediate moratorium on immigration.

I'm not entirely convinced by the ALP's stimulus policy but by the same token I don't see anything specific from the Liberals to get my teeth into. It all seems so wishy washy from both sides and that makes me uncomfortable.

I hear that this GFC is going to last for anything from three to ten years, so i'm looking for a package that will benfit Australia for the same period and at the same time possitions Austraila to come out of the crisis better, faster, stonger.

This to me means skills, modernisation, infrastructure, investment and jobs.

Insulation bats may help reduce energy consumption and a small part of only one industry. Misses the point?

School refurbishments may be nice but don't actually do anything for education or skills development. Misses the point?

I have yet to see what is meant by "infrastructure" so we don't really know. Might miss the point?

We could go back to the Keating "recession we had to have", we could go back to an unemployment rate at that time of over 10%, We could go back to interest rates of 18% and a national debt of $92 billion. We all want to avoid that and we are nowhere near that yet. Are these good enough reasons for a little caution?

I also think of the infrastructure spending in terms of not just temporary "job creation". I also think of State Rail, State Schools, State Roads and State Hospitals as infrastructure. Doesn't this mean "State Management" of jointly funded infrastructure? Should we ask the question, what have the State governments been doing for the past ten years that require so much extra funding?

Ludwig,I think that Kevin needs to consult with Obama and write some inspirational speeches.Get some positive ads running in the media.Instead of all this negativity,talk about the positives ie Our banks are in a much stronger financial position,we can supply all our own food and energy if need be.Our primary industries with food and energy shortages,devaluation of our $ are in a prime position for expansion.We have abundant resources,water and land.All we need is someone with the will,courage and foresight to get the ball rolling.Kevin and many others want to cringe into more socialism.Govts can't get their own budgets to balance what hope have they of running private enterprise?

We are doing exactly what they did during the Great Depression.Print or borrow more money,which will eventually cause hyper-inflation,businesses go broke so we have shortages further pushing up prices.It becomes a self fufilling prophecy.Your currency then collapses which in turn causes more hardship.

Yes,hit it with a circuit breaker now,but it must be planned and co-ordinated.You have to know when to stop the stimulus.Mixed signals coming from the Govt worsens the situation.The problem is that Kevin the control freak will not listen to advice.

Well Ludwig, please warn me if you ever run for PM.

I will sell both my shops and retire on half the minimum wage then either sell drugs or work say three days a week for cash, which is pretty much what some of them do today.

Man arnt I stupid in thinking that one has to WORK for a living when all I have to do is do nothing and get a pay increase for the privlige as you suggest! All in the name of keeping the ecconomy afloat hey.

There are already too few of us who pay ALL the bills in this country, can't you understand that yet!

Rehctub,
Good idea but needs more work
My mum bought a fridge her old one was 35 yo. She doesn't have the where-for-all to have spent $1000 then go and a refund.
Medicare would need to hold buckets of money then access to the branches. Then the risk of crime.
I think your details are a bit out of date. The Retail industry recently announced that December was better than last December by a significant ammount. showing that handouts worked.

Dear Foxy,
There has to be one in every bunch...I guess I'm it.
In answer to your question yes the Libs have lost the plot but so has the ALP, Greens etc. Have you ever seen the pictures of a spider’s web when the spider was fed LSD?

Our system is like that so complex yet all the parts don’t relate to each other in any comprehendible or sensible way. The manic servant runs the asylum and those in power maintain its hold.

All either side’s strategy seems to be is give varying quality toy floatation vests to the passengers of the Titanic. While giving comfy ocean going yachts to those who caused the disaster.

No one seems to be able to see that the water outside is freezing the passengers need real solutions. We need creative thinking, a new paradigm this one is broken.

We have the solutions all we need to do have the courage to implement them.

Ludwig
Australia for the Australians is a wee bit too late what the others do where ever they are affects us. As I said before ZPG is a good idea but *how * do we implement…”it’s going to be difficult” is stating the bleeding obvious.
Likewise how will less migration help with the financial crisis…another 50Cents each?
Can I suggest we give them a reason to stay home by helping to develop their countries rather than simply exploiting them or the inhuman pacific solution?
In the long run the latter will come back and bite us as will closing the door.

Somehow I doubt we will be workshopping our way out of this, we're pretty much pharked.

Thanks to Everyone for your inputs...
All of the arguments presented thus far are sound.
And heaven knows, I'm not an economist or some sort
of an expert on the subject. All I can do is present
the opinions of other 'experts.'

According to an article in The Age, Sat. Feb.7th 2009,
by Michelle Grattan...

"The Liberals have resurrected, figuratively speaking,
their old debt truck of the mid-1990s, which served
them well, helping slay Paul Keating. Their gamble is
that the economy will crash further, enabling them to
capitalise on Labor's failure. They are mortgaging
present political credibility for future political
advantage, a bold and risky strategy."

Turnbull has set his course: there is no deviating now.
But he finds himself awkwardly wedged without outside allies.
While they may quibble with sections of the package,
business groups have welcomed it and want to see it passed
quickly.

Willhelm Harnisch, chief executive of Master Builders
Australia says: "There can be a range of measures that can
be put in. But the reality is that the Government must do
something, which it has done; it must work with industry,
which it's done; it must engender confidence, which it has
done. Industry and government are working together to pull
out all stops to ensure jobs are protected."

Business attitude is that when the house is ablaze, it's
not much good arguing that maybe the fire brigade hasn't
sent the best model of fire engine or has the hose pressure
turned up too high...

The first test of the Coalition's stand will come very soon,
in the opinion polls.

I could just imagine Obama saying to China we can now pay off out our $ trillion debt with our new "pace oh dollar".ie you walk around in ever decreasing circles in worry.Hu Jintao's reponse,"Fruck off yanks,we not accept this "pace oh" rubbish!"

You're a good person Foxy.All the best.

Dear Arjay,

Thanks for your kind words.

I can imagine China saying exactly what you suggested
to Obama.

Thanks for making me laugh!

Meredith,
Where's your usual fighting spirit. We will get through this of that there is no doubt.

Foxy
The issue is with how much (avoidable) pain for those who are least able to cope. In the 1930's the unemployment rate was in the 20% range that's 1 in 5 unemployed and that was before it was common for women to work in the paid workforce like now. Goodness knows what it would have been if they were.
My point is that it's not going to get that bad but what I am on about is that there is a better way whereby less average folk have to bear the cost of the silvertails' excesses. Neither am I suggesting Doing away with capitalism merely getting back in its correct roll that of servant to man. We need governments to have the courage to implement the known changes rather than the equivilent of fiddling with the tea money. In the final analysis whether we give $900 per taxpayer or not it on its own won't make diddly swat difference in the world. Neither will stopping migration.
As I said if we (the world)develop the needy countries the demand the expenditure will break the financial confidence drop and if done properly the expenditure will feed the world's economy, keep the economic migrants home and maybe with the right technology slow avoid the worst consequences of AGW. All we need is to stop and think.
Well what do you think...do I get my nobel this year or next?

Lol,

My fighting spirit? Hehhe, it's in the vege patch with a homemade bow and arrow keeping you lefties off my freaking cabbages :)

I, personally do think we're in for it though. This stim pack stuff is a joke... It's not going to work.

Dear examinator,

I get your point. However every nation is trying to
solve this economic crisis by whatever means possible,
(and quickly before things escalate).

Our government is doing the best it can, at the advice of
financial experts.

Your nobel - will have to wait.

But what about a gold star from me?

When governments throw cash at things, my instinct it to reject it, however in this case it's the right course of action.

The government is following the advice of treasury and the vast weight of independent advice.

What's more, they're doing so in a more cautious, limited manner than most western countries. Our spending is less than most other countries - if anything, we should be damned for being too cautious.

Of course it sounds like crass spending. That's what a 'stimulus' is. And runner, the idea is to give it to people who will spend it. Saving the money would do absolutely nothing - the problem is that money may stop flowing in the economy. Giving the money to savers wouldn't work. While spending on the health system sounds nice, the problem we have is limited staff - the idea of the stimulus is to get more money in the economy. Hiring more nurses and docs would be a great idea, but guess what? They've been trying that for years. Simply buying specialised equipment wouldn't be the jolt in the arm the economy needs.

People, if you want to get a decent picture of the situation, read Steketee's piece here - in my estimation, he's one of the few journos who don't show political favouritism, and he's got a good grasp of economics.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25018087-7583,00.html

This is the key paragraph:

"International Monetary Fund chief economist Olivier Blanchard describes the present behaviour of investors, consumers and businesses around the world as "outright paralysis", leading to a collapse in demand and production and a consequent deep recession. His advice to policy-makers, in part, is: "On the consumption side, commit to do whatever it will take to avoid a depression, from fiscal stimulus to quantitative easing. Commit to do more in the future if necessary. Above all, adopt clear policies and act decisively. Do too much rather than too little. Delays in financial packages have cost a lot already." The IMF is not known for its reckless economic advice: to the contrary, it has become notorious for imposing harsh contractionary policies on countries"

“Swan concerns me, Rudd thrills me”

Belly, I just hope that Rudd doesn’t disappoint you within the next year or so. I must say, he’s not appealing much to me so far.

.
“Insulation bats…. Misses the point?”, “School refurbishments…Misses the point?”

Yes spindoc, I think these expenditures miss the point terribly.

We need to work out what the weakest links in upholding a high quality of life in our near future are. I’d say that one of them is getting by when the price of oil goes through the roof. It is not hard to imagine what will happen when transport fuels become a whole lot more expensive. We quite desperately need to gear up to alternative energy sources and more efficient methods of transport.

SURELY this is where a great deal of Rudd’s infrastructure expenditure and job creation should be directed.

I think that the massive expenditure on schools is misdirected and very poorly thought out.

.
“Man arnt I stupid in thinking that one has to WORK for a living when all I have to do is do nothing and get a pay increase for the privlige as you suggest!”

Rehctub, by way of clarification; I suggest that the dole be increased considerably, but still well short of the minimum wage.

When the economy is booming along and jobs are abundant, the dole should be reduced right down to bare bones. But in the current climate, where people are losing their jobs in great numbers due to no fault of their own, and are very hard-pressed to find new jobs, the safety net should be upped considerably. Do you really have a problem with this?

.
“Australia for the Australians is a wee bit too late…”

Not at all examinator. Rudd is on about jobs, jobs, jobs. So is Turnbull. They have the support of the people for this. Well, whose jobs do you think they are talking about? Australians’ jobs of course. So lets match reality with rhetoric and concentrate on jobs for current Australians, and not for current Australians plus hundreds of thousands of immigrants.

The question is not simple to put in move the machine (economy) But to grab this opportunity to create something usefull, something which we have to do in the future, something which could improve the quality of life in a big part of our society, something which will save money for the state in the future and may be give some income to the state.
NOT SIMPLE TO PUT ON MOVE THE MACHINE, BUT TO PUT ON MOVE THE MACHINE FOR LONGER TIME.
Soon or later the developed countries have to solve the problems which related to retired people.
If before 5 persons worked for each retired person today only 1 person worked for each retired person and in the future even less.
If yesterday the average life was 65 years tomorrow it will be 120!
We have the opportunity to solve this problem now, instead in the future in worst conditions.
We do not simple want to put on move the machine but we want to do this with the maximum posible usefulness.
CREATE NOW THE VILAGES, HOSPITALS ETC WHICH OUR RETIRED PEOPLE WILL NEED.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

“Somehow I doubt we will be workshopping our way out of this, we're pretty much pharked.”

Meredith, I’ve got no doubt that we could quickly ‘workshop’ our way into undertaking a much more effective and efficient ‘rescue’ attempt.

With the current approach I think we are pretty much phrooted!

Ludwig my thoughts on Rudd are my considered ones.
Not biased not my party right or wrong, see my concerns here about Swan, a member of my union.
Each of us has every right to his/her view, I understand you are not challenging it.
In fact you are one of the best posters here, but we differ we often do.
I claim some understanding of politics, I think I told of the election outcome long before it came.
Rudd has no magic wand, no one has, he however will go down in history as one of the greatest Labor leaders.
Rudd is not going to fix the global crisis, he is not even going to fix Australia's crisis.
He is not trying to, he is trying to stop the slide down a very steep slope.
He may not be able to, but he understands much more than Turnbull, some Australians own no home, want no relief from debt, just food on the table for kids, a job, some roof over their heads, some of those people never stood to gain from high home prices interest share prices, but they are the first victims.
Rudd will not let me down.
Men like Bill Shorten follow and a young giant of the future filling Bills former roll will not let me down Labor has great leadership and great future as conservatives are lost, remote from those they need to vote for them ,as they once did for Howard.

Meredith,
Me a leftie hmmmmm I don't fit the profile.
I simply take a wider perspective of things other than left or right.
I ask what good is a system that in prone to corruption, manipulation, gives cover for human's worst aspects and is prone to periodic catastrophic failures in which the least able suffer the most? Be that socialist or capitalistic?
As for your vegie patch, to be a good conservative you need underpaid serfs working it and sell your produce in order to buy a commercially available bow and arrow .
As for the cabbages no thanks they make me phart. :-)

Foxy, thanks for your kind words elsewhere.

There are good reasons to oppose this package, quite apart from purely political ones. As I read it Turnbull does not oppose a stimulus package, merely this prematurely ejaculative one.

The assett/debt bubble has burst; will it really help if government incurs more debt on our behalf? Taking Treasury or IMF advice on this is.... aren't they the ones who lead us headlong into this anyway? Discussion is needed, not submission to Kevins will.

There is nothing in the record of the NSW government to indicate that they can spend the proposed sums in an honest or effective way. We have had huge windfall revenue gains over the last 10 years (GST and property levies) without commensurate improvements in infrastructure, schools etc. Why believe they will do any better now?

The money might be better spent seeding a bank that acts for our common wealth? A bank that sets the standard for responsible lending practises? A bank that will act as a moderator for all banks.

Has it been considered that the govt. should print the money rather than loan it?

I'm with Meridith, we're phlocked for years to come. The levels of debt we hold are unsustainable. There is only a fraction of the money required to meet debts available. Asset values are dropping and no longer cover our debts.

In short, let's have a whole lot more debate. One week aint gonna hurt.

On the bright side, no more leveraged buy outs, no more Private Equity buy outs, futilely inflating prices without adding productive value.

“Rudd thrills me”

One would be tempted with the response….

“A cheap thrill”

However, considering the perilous state the Krudd government t is pushing the nations economy and the burdern it will place on the tax payers, “cheap” is not an appropriate adjective to apply.

Horus makes the all important point.

Ludwig promotes a conservatory view, responsible and immediately actionable but will Krudd & Co respond… I doubt it, he will see ignorant immigrants from third world countries the ideal fodder for the labor voter machine,
Although the “money directly where it is needed.” Wrong

Leave it in the pockets of taxpayers who have always known how to spend it better than politicians and their bureaucratic flunkies.

Ajray comments correctly on this becoming a spin-doctor fest… more money spent in the pointless pursuit of popularism and ego (the essential ingredients when substance and objectives are missing, to say nothing of the direction in which to lead the nation out of this crisis).

Somehow I cannot see John Howard as ever panicking in the manner of our glorious St Kevin in this , his hour of trial

I suppose it is appropriate to suggest

“the honeymoon is well and truly over “

And “Little Kev” (“Big Kev” is already taken… and he went bust as well… maybe it’s the “Kevin” word… has a kiss of fiscal death about it) is about to turn us all out (pimping style) onto the street corners to let him fund his socialist spending addiction.

Trying to maintain the economy with “stimulus packages” is as sane as giving a kid red candy before bed time… it over stimulates with consequences when they come down of the sugar rush…

Every Nanny knows that, except this Nanny state…. More hypocrisy from the socialists, incapable of following what the preach.

Palimpsest talking of LBO’s… I see Warren Buffet, the king of effective/successful LBOs is not sweating… the “Oracle of Omaha” knows something….

I think Obama should go sit on his knee…

and certainly Krudd would do better listening to him than the Pallbearer (Keating), father of the last recession.

Both stimulus packages won't work - so at the next election the Libs and Repubs can say they voted against, and easily win the election.

I don't think that having any more debate on this
subject is going to help the situation. They've
spent entire nights debating it in Parliament...
It's time the package was passed.

Michelle Grattan in The Age, Sat. Feb. 7th 2009
points out:
"This is a difficult situation - with a political
agenda in the foreground: in the early stages
governments win kudos when they take decisive
action to appear in control. But when recessions
start to really hurt, governments become culprits,
and get thrown out by voters.

Economists never agree about anything, so its not
surprising that there have been arguments over the
size and composition of Labor's spending spree.

However Kevin Rudd can quote solid economic opinion
to back his case for pumping up support for the
economy now, and for doing it the way he has.

In these dire days business is looking for a combination
of certainty and stimulus, not political jousting."

Treasury secretary, Ken Henry said,

"Were it not for the package, there would be an additional
90,000 people who would not have a job."

"If the package was about $20 billion (the size that
Turnbull is proposing), there would be greater risk of
negative growth at some point."

Treasury also advanced the case "to act now," rather than
the Turnbull line of keeping some shots in the locker for
later.

"The circumstances confronting Australia are simply unprecedented,"
Henry said.

Foxy
I understand what you are saying and I am not against handouts to the most needy. My preference would be to recognise the inadequacy of some of those barely surviving on pensions and increase them. This should have been done much earlier and not part of a stimulus package.

Under the Howard government increases to the aged pension/carers etal were long overdue. While Howard was handing out huge amounts of funding to sport, a needless war and corporate welfare the truly poor were overlooked for far too long.

But back to the stimulus package: according to one news item a large proportion of those who are to receive handouts reported that the extra money will be spent on reducing personal debt because of the current crisis. This is the choice I would make in their shoes too but it won't stimulate spending as such. Financial crises create insecurity and insecurity tends to make people spend less.

To maintain spending people need to feel secure. That jobs are safe and unemployment does not rise too high. That is what a stimulus package should aspire to do. Handouts do not, in my view, achieve the desired outcome.

Personally I think we need to re-think the whole economic system but that is another topic.

“Although the ‘money directly where it is needed.’ Wrong”

Col, could you please explain this. Thanks.

.
“Personally I think we need to re-think the whole economic system but that is another topic.”

I’m not sure that it is another topic pelican. I’d suggest that it is of the utmost relevance and importance to the manner in which any economic rescue or stimulus package is undertaken. In fact, we should be working out what the fundamental flaws are, right now with the highest priority, planning on how we fix them and then organising expenditure and jobs accordingly.

Rudd has strongly criticised the system that has led us to this crunch. But he seems to only be interested in propping it up rather than fixing it.

"I’m not sure that it is another topic pelican."

I tend to agree with you in principle Ludwig. In my opinion, we need to look at our obsession with consumption and growth as 'essential' to the current economic and think more sustainably.

While some of the changes will have to occur (by their nature) over the longer term, governments could be certainly paving the way by increasing spending on renewables and re-thinking populuation growth just as a start.

Even if Rudd is on the same wavelength for the long term the current crisis is something he has to contend with now and to some extent he may be forced to follow the 'rules' of the current system until more sustainable and longer term strategies can be planned and implemented without too many casualties.

Ludwig ““Although the ‘money directly where it is needed.’ Wrong”

Col, could you please explain this. Thanks.”

Yes Ludwig… it is possibly a broader question than merely pertaining to the current crisis but it is the question that says

Why should government spend on things which should be the preserve of private consumers…

Should favoured car companies be the beneficiaries of public funds or should they rely on the market for their competitive survival?

Thus … the tax surcharge which every car buyer pays could be removed and the subsidy which government pays manufacturers removed, one offsetting the other and the government withdrawing their “grace and favour” from the transaction.

Should mass transport services be heavily subsidized by tax payers or should it be on a “user pays” and cover the full economic costs of the service?

More meddling often with disastrous economic and operational results and in the case of transport particularly a fulcrum point for the unethical political power plays by unions in blackmailing operators and users(consumers) into paying uneconomic rates for tied services.

In so many ways government takes to itself authority for doing things but fails to pick up responsibility for the effective delivery of what it has promised. The Victorian public transport network being a classic case-study in managerial ineptitude (like BART was for design ineptitude).

"Rudd has strongly criticised the system that has led us to this crunch."

Krudd ran a Mee-too economic policy, he supported the previously existing system any criticism now is just rank hypocrisy (nothing new)

I hear someone on talk back radio suggesting Mr Rudd put Tinto and BHP back to work building a pipeline from QLD to wash out the Murry River. Great idea!
That would give people back their jobs and cut out a lot of costs doing it as well. I am sure the farmers would appreciate it.
Either way The Rudd Government only gave two hours for the libs to look over their plan.
Its only fair that the libs be allowed to do their job and asked for a couple more days.
I think Mal and the Greens will get a better deal for the eldery.
I also think its good to have nice schools but the kids need jobs for them to goto after they leave.

So funds could be better spread to acheive far more by using our brains and have several eggs in the basket.

Australia will be still suffering from this in twenty years.

Make no mistake. ALP do not have a good record wnhen it comes to spending or policies.

Give the libs and greens the little time together they requested
to work with the Rudd Government on it and lets see what they come up with.

Foxy, I disagree - Turnbull is doing exactly what a good opposition leader should be doing - seeking out weaknesses in the governments policies and publicising them. Having seen the Queensland government successfully transfer blame the to "maintenance man" for a nurse getting raped here when the lock on her door wasn't fixed despite months of complaining, and then hear not so much as a peep about it from the opposition, I'd take a Turnbull performance any day. Often all the bitching and moaning we get from oppositions makes them seem pretty lame, their behaviour in question time seem childish. I suspect they know they come across and idiots at times. Such is life for politicians I guess. But lame or otherwise, I now view it as essential to making our system work.

As for the policy's themselves - TRTL nailed it. The government is just following the accepted economic wisdom. Personally, it doesn't seem like the right thing to do to me, but I ain't no economists who has spent his life studying the great depression and what we might of done to avoid it. So right now I am just crossing my fingers and hoping they are right. It is a big hope, because frankly economists have a lousy track record compare to the conventional sciences.

As for those that are complaining about how the money is handed out - instinctively we would prefer to see the money put into assets that are going to be useful in the long term - roads, railways, hospitals, power generation and so on. Unfortunately those things spend ages in the planning stages. I am sure they see a need to pump prime the economy now as well as in the longer term, and thus we see a combination of hand outs and infrastructure projects. Again I ain't no expert, but I suspect there aren't too many ways to pump up the economy in the short term except via hand outs.

Foxy "I don't think that having any more debate on this
subject is going to help the situation. They've
spent entire nights debating it in Parliament...
It's time the package was passed."

that sounds very familiar to KRudds Choke direction, his unilateral guillotine approach, adopted by the Labor Hacks for the Senate debate....

Silence dissent

Choke opposing opinion

Leave the electorate in the dark to the real costs, details, issues, agendas and deals which we appoint parliamentarians to challenge freely and openly (in a democracy at least)

As far as OLO is concerned, any user can initiate a discussion here on OLO, with the oversight of the host.

I recall nothing in the "rules" which says discussion will cease upon the command of the thread initiator, unless someone has changed the rules from those publish and available to the great unwashed, of whom I am a proud and fiercely outspoken and independent one...

Speaking personally (as I always do) I will finish posting when I have finished pposting and not before.

If I wish to disagree with Ludwig or he with me (as is commonly the case - Eh Ludwig?)

I will and I am sure Ludwig will support my expressions in pursuit of free (libertarian valued) posting by all.

PALE "Make no mistake. ALP do not have a good record wnhen it comes to spending or policies."

I agree PALE... too many secret vested interests for any policy to be objective and of couirse, when did you ever see a Socialist government turn in a surplus which was not a roll over from a previous coalition government?

The levels of household debt virtually tripled in 10 years, to over 170% of disposable income. There was a 1000% increase in money owed on housing over the last 15 years.

With the economy tanking, and the value of our assets(housing,super) decreasing how does throwing us in to more debt help? We can't afford the debt we have now, banks won't lend when they can't be sure of the value of the collateral holding up or increasing.

Examinator...

I know your special, but not everything I write is about you.. I think you just have a big ol' crush on me...

And that's fair enuff :)

Rehctub, by way of clarification; I suggest that the dole be increased considerably, but still well short of the minimum wage.

How can anyone think that raising the rate for unemployed is by any way encouraging them to find work. Or is finding work only a 'smoke screen' when you're on the dole.

The big problem is not so much the hand outs, but how and when are we going to be able to pay this money back. Remember, only 58% of families are actually tax positive tax payers. Surely you don't expect them to be burdoned by more bills to pay.

I see little other option other than to raise the GST.

Now this will hurt the 42% far more than it will the 58% as the 42% require every cent just to live.

Maybe the so called battlers should be carefull what they wish for as their kids will never forgive them for the hole they have dug and the mess that will be left behind.

Col Rouge Gday, see the polls? does it matter that your view is the minority one?
That Turnbull has lost ground?
Yep lost ground too Foxy, why the self damage?

Sometimes things expressed don't always come out the way
we intended them to.

I didn't mean to suggest that anyone who
wants to continue with this
discussion should stop at my say so. Heavens,
my ego is not that big that I would ever presume
to have that kind of power.

What I meant was that
I'm pulling out now because I have nothing further
to add to this discussion. That for me, it's run
it's course. I believe in the PM's bail out package,
I've made that quite clear, and I've stated
why I believe in it. I've also stated that I'm not
an expert on the subject, that I was merely echoing
the views of the economic experts from the International
Monetary Fund and others, advising the PM.

I respect the opinions expressed by everyone on this
thread.

I Thank You all for your input.

As for you Col, well as I've said before:

"You gotta love that guy!"

I think that any big-spending initiative such as this needs to have the technicalities looked at more closely (particularly when it bears all the hallmarks of being a vote-grabber). To begin with, people who do not earn enough to pay tax are excluded; are they not arguably the people who most need a hand?

As for the "dole", there are a lot of people who do not have jobs through no fault of their own - add to those the people who are losing their jobs at such a concerning rate. Even in a bouyant labour market there are people who cannot get jobs for any number of reasons.

Turnbull may well lose a bit in the popularity polls for his caution, but let's look properly at who will be the real winners and losers, and how this apparent largesse is to be managed, and what people will do with it. It is intended to promote spending - I don;t know too many people who will be spending up big on non-essentials when they have their job outlook to worry about. Add to that who will be administering this - the ATO and Centrelink? That alone is cause for concern. And do we want to go back to the days of the Keating administration? What happens when the surplus is spent and the government has no assets left to sell off?

What I CAN see a good case for is capping the salaries of politicians,their minders and spin doctors and corporate executives and maybe looking at some of the people on pensions who possibly shouldn't be.

Nicky

Belly "Col Rouge Gday, see the polls? does it matter that your view is the minority one?"

No I have not seem the polls nor do I care what some loaded questions asked to a few people not necessarily scientifically selected at random think.

Doubtless whilst Krudd is mortgaging our childrens future with his excessive spending, the swinging voters and the "handouts-is-our-entitlement" brigade will rally behind him but it don't really matter

What matters is the nest election poll and Krudd cannot keep up his profligate spending up for another couple of years.

So, I guess he has no other policies that work (or he would have used them before spending like a mad thing).

Thats the problem with the left, all grand speeches, good intentions but not a clue on how to deliver real value or meaningful advances.

I will wait and see what happens at the next election and Turnbull will be feeling better about his position as the months tick past.... I doubt Krudd will be able to keep all the socialist stuffups out of the headlines nor maintain his level of cynical vote buying ...

The Aussie electorate is fickle... as we saw in the last election...

With a doubling or trebling of unemployment and tax increases needed to cover the Krudd spending addiction, they is gonna be really "fickle" in a year or so...

Col like it or not the polls are nearly always right.
Tell you what, its not vote buying, sorry Nicky but you are quite wrong Col is too.
Next election? get your money on now sure bet Rudd by an increased majority.
If both house dissolve? no independents in the senate.
Country party if lead by Barnaby Joice wins an extra Senate seat Libs down two, greens up one.
One day conservatives will return to power ,but first they must form policy's other than opposing every thing.
Say three more terms for Rudd?
Turnbull surely is too smart to continue this rot?

Dear Belly,

Is it self-damage if I agree with what you say?

Riiiight... We should look to talk back radio callers to solve this crisis...

Rudd has lost me. He says he wants to stimulate the economy, then incessantly talks it down and spews forth a hyperbole of panic at every opportunity.

In fact it could be argued that the very act of the handouts is panic generating. People are naturally saying 'Wow, things must be pretty bad if they have to do that!'. Are we heading for a recession based on a self fulfilling prophecy from Rudd?
Spewing money out of every orifice like he is is akin to some doomsdayer giving away all their posessions because there will be no tomorrow. Tax cuts would be far less scary to the electorate.

Belly “Col like it or not the polls are nearly always right.
Tell you what, its not vote buying, sorry Nicky but you are quite wrong Col is too.”

Like I said… whilst Krudd is out spending big… excising his little-man syndrome.

He will be little Mr Popular.

But when the bill comes in and he is increasing taxes, cutting services etc, left, right and centre, people will consider him and his cronies and ponder their options.

Belly, you can put whatever spin and call it what you like,….

Throwing money at parts of the electorate in the form of bribes is “vote buying” .

“form policy's other than opposing every thing”

Lets face it when we went to the last election

Krudd ran on the liberal party policy with his “Mee-Too” manifesto and promises to be all things to all men and enough dummies, who, having had it so good for so long, had forgotten how bad it was under Keating and bought into the lie.

Turnbull problem, is to separate the liberals from what Kev says versus what Kev does (and what kev says versus what Kev does displays a split personality but strangely, both of then inept)

And to make sure he maintains faith with conservative values which Kev tried to hijack in the name of “Mee-Too”

I anticipated when the creepy little sycophant got his hands on “power”, I would have a field day. It makes suffering the incompetence of socialism almost worth while (and I only said “almost”) .

Houellebecq puts it quite eloquently in a very graphic sort of way :- )

Tender choice of words Houellebecq “Spewing money out of every orifice”

I will add that to my list of OLO valid descriptions LOL
And the other point

Tax cuts are expected…. They were expected under Keating in notorious “they are written in L – A – W” but were rescinded by the lying pallbearer.

But if Krudd dares mess with the tax cuts the electorate are fully aware of and expecting

He will be signing his political death warrant.

I'm still not sure about tax cuts. With tax cuts the
Government has less revenue and therefore will be
less able to financially assist public projects,
such as schools and hospitals providing needed jobs.

Tax cuts for big business will guarantee them
sustainable profits but it will not necessarily guarantee
jobs for their employees in a market geared for unemployment.

Why should a builder undertake more work when by laying off
staff and gaining a tax cut he can make the same profit?
Especially when there is no more money in the development
industry to hire builders.

Whereas the Government's bail out package would be pumping
in money to create essential projects to hire builders.

In my view tax cuts would increase unemployment.

Foxy increased borrowings means more interest repayments which means less money long term for other things. The impact of either tax cuts or handouts is about the size of the package not ncessarily an either or scenario.

A builder who can reduce costs through tax cuts rather than laying off staff retains the same capacity to do work but at a lower cost which means that the customers wanting to have something built by someone who also expects to have a little more in their pocket long term through reduced taxes and may be more able to afford that project than they otherwise would be.

The real difference is that those who make the money get to decide what's important and a percentage of government handling costs (and maybe some pork barrelling) is cut from the equation.

R0bert

Hello RObert,

I understand what you're saying.

But we're going to have to agree to disagree on this
issue.

What is needed at present is an injection into the
economy to prevent things from going down the gurgler.
I've heard on the news that in the US one town has an
unemployment rate of 25% and without the Obama bail-out
package it had been predicted to rise to 40%.

Of course we're going to have a debt - but at least
people will have jobs with the bail-out package.
Without it,where would the Government get the revenue from to
support the unemployed?

We need a bail-out at present to create jobs.
Tax cuts will not force job creation. It might
save some jobs but at present what is needed is an
injection into the economy to maintain what we have,
and to create more jobs. Economists from the
International Monetary Fund and the Reserve Bank
agree on this, as do business groups.

Anyway, we'll soon find out if the PM's on the right
track. Voters will be watching.

I think R0bert is absolutely right. Where there is project/infrastructure spending, watch it go to the marginal electorates. And the people who already earn the "big bucks" have the most influence over where money is spent and on what. Their primary considerations are not usually their workers, just their "bottom line".

Belly, I'm sorry, but this sniffs strongly of pork-barreling on a massive scale. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ... you guessed it. I don't share your apparent faith in everyone playing fair here. They're making all the right noises, but most people I know will not be using any such largesse to increase personal spending, they will be using it to defray personal debt, and if that's the case then it will not achieve what it is claimed to be seeking to achieve.

Nicky

Since the Liberal Party has become little more than a shill for Big Business at its stupidest, I'd like to see the Liberal Party euthanised altogether so that a genuine conservative party can take its place.

Those small-l liberals not attracted to socially and culturally conservative principles and values could go to the Labor Party (itself heavily dominated by left-liberal types) or form their own minor party.

sorry Foxy but I was referring only to Turnbulls self damage
I however note the pork barreling charges, uninformed comment from people who do not understand the subject IMO.

“Since the Liberal Party has become little more than a shill for Big Business at its stupidest, I'd like to see the Liberal Party euthanised altogether so that a genuine conservative party can take its place.”

And the Labor Party isn’t just as much of a ‘shill’ for big business?

Efranke, what makes you think that the Libs are worse than the Labs in this regard?

Dear Ludwig,

Because its the Libs that want to give tax cuts
from which only the rich will benefit whereas
Labor is trying to inject money into the economy
from which all will benefit.

Libs are for supporting the rich and the powerful,
Labor is for equity.

Now these statements should stir things up a bit!

"Because its the Libs that want to give tax cuts
from which only the rich will benefit whereas
Labor is trying to inject money into the economy
from which all will benefit.

Libs are for supporting the rich and the powerful,
Labor is for equity."

Foxy,

This is the fundamental difference between the two parties where they do actually differ. I think Ludwig's referring to the fact that since the Hawke/Keating years, Labor has grown a lot closer to big business. Some are happy with this situation and some aren't. Is it an example of the ALP's maxim "keep your friends close, but your enemies even closer" or have Labor really sold out?

“Libs are for supporting the rich and the powerful, Labor is for equity.”

Foxy, can you provide a bit more on this belief, or direct me to any of your previous posts in which you may have elaborated. Thanks.

"Libs are for supporting the rich and the powerful, Labor is for equity.”

I would describe it as

the libs want to nurture, encourage and take care of the golden goose,

labor, in the name of "equality" want to stop it laying the golden eggs, unless it can provide one a day for every person, every day.

Tax is levied upon the reward of those who take risks and/or innovate.

The history of the last 3 centuries, since the early days of the industrial revolution and the attendant improvement in living standards, is wholly dependent upon and a reflection of mankinds ability to take risks and innovate.

Unless there is improved productivity (the quantative measure of positive innovation, invention and successful commercial risk taking), there is no improvement in the available wealth or a basis for levying tax.

Government and Bureaucrats add nothing to the wealth, they merely shuffle its distribution around but the efficiencty of that process suggests the final benefit may not be worth alot of the costs of administration.

Especially when alot of people are naturally philanthropic. Bill Gates and Warren Buffett to name but two among millions, including the millions presently mining their pockets to exercise personal philanthropy and compassion for those who are suffering in the current bush fire crisis.

Greater personal disposable income, a product of lower taxation, allows the expression of greater personal philantropy. The Australian journalist has sent an open letter to Krudd, exprressing outrage at the debacle with centerlink emergency offices set up near the fires a couple of days ago, the bureaucrats were indifferent to peoples personal suffering and demanded identification from people who ahd lost everything... something which personal philanthropy just would not care about.

And apparently Centrelink followed a similar imperical posture when attending the Queensland floods.

Just another example of meddlesome government not addressing the needs of the people who elected them and authoried them to collect the taxes to finance the needs of those disadvantaged by natural disaster.

Col, I think you are almost right in that assessment; the only difference being that bureaucrats/public servants also pay tax and buy stuff. The higher level "fat cats" probably buy more. But your assessment of Centrelink services sounds pretty accurate; it would be pretty typical of Centrelink staff to be asking for ID from people who have nothing. That way they don't have to give them anything. They can drag that out forever, until the people find a way of proving they are who they say they are.
Keeps the "bottom line" down rather well really.

Nicky

Workchoices, a word that will still be tainted in 100 years,I offer it as evidence of conservatives war on the less well off.
16% that is Labors lead in the polls, it will take more than opposing every thing to return that mob to government.
Lets not forget an election held today would cripple conservatives for another decade.
We are going to have both houses dissolved watch and see, now is the time for Turnbull to try to win voters not chase them away.

Dear Ludwig,

Belly has given you a great example in his last post
in answer to your question - Workchoices!

The Libs want to give tax cuts- from which only the
rich will benefit. The Government doesn't.
The Liberals did not object to 'fat-cat' bonusesa
and salaries for big businesses and banking.
The Libs. tried to destroy the union system.
The Libs. introduced GST - which makes it harder
for the poor to afford living expenses.
The Libs. want to privatise the health system.
The Libs almost destroyed the public hospital system.
The Libs want to increase funding to elitist
schools.
The Libs. tried to abandon rail-services to rural areas.

Is that enough for you Ludwig?

Yes, I'm with Belly on this, and particularly the comment about the destruction of the Union movement. I've been watching "Bastard Boys" the doco that was made about the Patrick's waterfront battle ten years ago, and it was absolutely riveting (I got the DVD from the ABC shop too).

Now it seems that the unions have no powers at all. Belly, I'd really be interested in your thoughts on this. I've always been a union supporter and have acted as a union delegate, back when we had some powers to back any negotiations we went into. Now when people have problems with their employers they seem to have nowhere to go.

Howard destroyed all that, and now it seems that unions do not even have "right of entry" powers in workplaces any more.

Many years ago when I worked as an industrial advocate on the waterfront, what the wharfies wanted they got - until the Patrick affair.

Nicky

Thanks Nicky for the opportunity, do you know I truly think the day will come that conservatives will understand unions are not all bad?
Workchoices did not kill unions, it was not even the start, Hawk and Keiting started reining unions in.
Just maybe, well in truth, it was a needed action.
But 1996 went too far, all unions took the blame for some.
John Howard had history of HATING unions, look years into his past, and his acts against the postal workers union.
Bizarrely I agreed something had to be done, extremists communists, are not Representative of Aussie workers.
One day, leaders of conservatives and unions may find ground we can meet on, my first loyalty is to unions, not a party.
It however is not even a chance we can cut out ties to Labor if the other camp is trying to kill or stop us geting a simple fair go for workers.
Nicky today, every day I must walk a hard road just to fix things that we once only had to ask, to see it done.
safe work in construction is under threat, bosses want productivity not safe work.
3 times this year, already, I have had to defend workers who bought safety issue to bosses.
In the middle of last weeks heat no gloves to take ice, you will be sacked for using hands[I agree]ice is first defense from heat stroke, no gloves for a week, we got them in ten minutes.
Site safety bloke[ex union delegate] told mass tool box they should not be a rude word for complainers!
workchoices still lives in the minds of some who should know better.

Foxy “The Libs want to give tax cuts- from which only the
rich will benefit.”

If a small number of tax-payers are paying, whilst they will be the only ones to benefit from a taxes reduction or removal, it leaves those individuals with more money in their pocket, to spend on what they decide is important… and that might be things like more restaurant meals and entertainment (luxury discretionary stuff) which better secures the jobs of hospitality workers.

“The Liberals did not object to 'fat-cat' bonuses
and salaries for big businesses and banking.”

A government cannot and should not decree how much a private company or even a company owned by publicly subscribed and listed shares should pay their executives, the board of directors and share holders should alone decide that.

“The Libs. tried to destroy the union system.”

The libs reigned in the excesses of belligerent unionists.

“The Libs. introduced GST - which makes it harder
for the poor to afford living expenses.”

GST replaced an bundle inefficient, ambiguous, complex, differentiating sales taxes. The only reason the tax take increased has been because labor state governments have not retired the taxes they promised to remove when they signed up to receive the GST revenue

“The Libs. want to privatise the health system.”

They want to maintain the plural system, Hawke tried to strangle the private side of the plural system which had existed for decades

“The Libs want to increase funding to elitist schools.”

Schooling can readily be provided in a voucher deremption system which gives the parent appropriate benefit whilst maintaining individual choice. Any school system which denies parental discretion falls into the risk of providing state approved propaganda instead of education for children.

“The Libs. tried to abandon rail-services to rural areas.”

If the performance of the Minister of Transport in Victoria is any guide, listening to the bingling incompetence and union cronyism which has been happening every morning for months in Melbourne, Lynn Koski has abandoned rail services in metro areas as well.

There must always be an expectation that public subsidy is never unlimited.

Col,

"A government cannot and should not decree how much a private company or even a company owned by publicly subscribed and listed shares should pay their executives, the board of directors and share holders should alone decide that."

I'd agree with this comment if the market worked in a fair, even and transparent manner. The trouble is that sometimes shareholders are fed BS. They are told things like the company is doing well, has met all its targets etc and 12 months down the track it loses half its value because of a share crash due to a hitherto unknown (to the shareholder) botched acquisition or whatever. They are on the wrong side of asymmetrical information equation. At that time the company directors walk off with their golden parachutes which they have had plenty of opportunity to organise while the shareholders get the leftovers. In this case, the government intervenes to at least staunch the imbalances and deter other managers from doing the same thing. It's not ideal, but should the government just leave the shareholders on the ground bleeding?

I couldn't agree more with your comments about the GST. It is a much fairer tax in the sense that the burden is spread out over the whole economy (which is pretty much everyone) and the amount you pay is proportional to the amount you spend. It can't get much fairer than that. If people are still paying too much tax overall, it's because state governments are greedy and will not retire all the inefficient taxes, charges and levies that make the system as burdensome, ad hoc and inefficient as it is.

RobP "I'd agree with this comment if the market worked in a fair, even and transparent manner. The trouble is that sometimes shareholders are fed BS. "

I agree with your observation. The issue lies with the actions of the board of Directors, who are these days required to act in the interests of the company, under sufferance if thet are proven to do otherwise.

That part of commercial law (directors duties and liability) has been changed in recent years. In fact anyone who is part of a non-commercial organisation, such as a professional body or social club, even thouguh they might undertake duties for free, needs to check their personal liability under the changes.

On a personal note anyone unsure of the ethicacy of the directors should sell the chares as fast as they can... it is that simple... trust the board or invest elsewhere.

All that aside, the introduction of any amount government meddlers or regulation into the process of executive salary packaging, would add nothing to the safety / security of the share holders.

It would merely inject another layer of bureaucratic incompetence into decision making.

Thanks for your expression of agreement re GST

GST is a fair tax, in that it is applied to a broad base, which uniformly taxes people's individual "consumption", rather than loading the burden of tax generation upon to those who happen to generate income or those who happen to purchase a particular class of goods

The chocolate as "confectionary" (36% Sales tax) versus chocolate for "cooking" (zero% sales tax) being one of the most ludicrous examples and which are now both taxed 10% under GST, an amount which the purchaser can reclaim (through BAS statements), if they are not the "ultimate consumer" and use the chocolate in the manufacture of (say) muffins, which they then on-sell and levy 10% tax on the price of the muffin.

Belly, thanks so much for that - it's good to get a perspective from someone who believes in unions as they should be. If you didn't see it, I'd really recommend you have a look at "Bastard Boys" (it's been on the ABC lately). It actually finished up as a fairly balanced view of the dispute - although I despised Chris Corrigan at the time, he was finally portrayed as something approaching a human being. Not so Peter Reith and Howard, however. I remember when it was going on, Reith even made the mistake of visiting the Newcastle wharves at the time. But the outcome of that eventually was that so many men with no skills other than those associated with work on the wharves were put out of work in the end, and of course BHP in Newcastle closed down too.

I was a CPSU workplace delegate in the late 1990s and immediately Howard came to power, so many jobs were cut by hatchet-man Max Moore Wilton.

RobP and Col, your assessments were pretty spot on too., We were conned into accepting the "never, ever" GST on the basis that so many other taxes would disappear, and it didn't happen.

Overall, it makes you pretty cynical about both sides of government as Rudd's policies were so close to Howard's prior to the election. The problem is the human face of the job losses; the people who thought the "good times" would go on forever, bought houses with large mortgages, cars, and amassed large credit card debt. That's why I think this "bail-out" needs more thought. I think personal bankruptcies will soar as well as business ones. People will use it to retire debt, not for spending. Self-funded retirees are no longer able to survive and superannuation funds have lost so much value. And we have allowed so many manufacturing jobs to go off-shore as we import more and more second-grade rubbish from China. Try buying any technology that is not made in China. In fact, you can't even buy greeting cards that aren't made in China. Go figure.

Nicky

Nicky I was on those wharves in Newcastle standing in for workers who could not be there.
We marched in my rural town, 500 of us, and fed many a sausage sandwich.
It was the methods used not the intent that drew us to support.
Max Moore Wilton!
I confronted the bloke, see a post here that describes him not leaving a meeting set down for strict 15 minutes.
He stayed much longer trying to get a union delegate to shake his hand.
He for a while, controlled the NSW RTA he would get no sandwich from me ever.
I think you are heading in the wrong direction on this issue, manufacturing ext are issues remote from the bail out.
Our future is bleak with it, far worse without it.
Are we to be the only western nation without one?
Did Australia want to place control in the hands of this SA senator.
Or Mr 2% from family first?
Dissolve both houses, give us a chance to remove them, Australia a chance to rejudge Rudd and Turnbull
bring it on please bring it on.

“I that enough for you Ludwig?”

Thanks for your comments Foxy, but no it isn’t enough.

Even if each of your points is true at face value, they need to be compared to the bad things put forward by Rudd.

I don’t think these things are necessarily as bad or as straightforward as your simple statements make them out to be. Afterall, they were all put forward with good intentions.

I’m no Liberal supporter, but I could proffer a few comments on the GST, Workchoices, etc, to the effect of making them seem a little less directly awful.

Neither am I a Labor supporter.

The main problem ….and you know what I’m going to say… is that they are both in bed with big business and are manically pro-expansionist and anti-sustainabilityist.

Neither have any intention of reforming the regime of political donations, which amount to bribes from those who can afford it, which is big business. Rudd has mumbled a bit about some of the worst aspects of political donations. He’ll tinker a bit, but he won’t touch the core issues.

Neither major party has any intention of becoming decision-makers that are independent of the all-powerful vested-interest pro-growth lobby, or as independent from that as they are from the environmental and sustainability lobby. They are both absolutely going to uphold the most blatant and terrible bias in favour of greed, vested interests and short-term gain.

Even in times of great economic and environmental stress, neither Labor nor the Libs if they were in power would pull back on the absurdly high immigration rate or try for one moment to mitigate population growth rates in stressed regions like southeast Qld.

They are both just so totally on the wrong track. This makes the little differences that you tout very little indeed. In fact it pales them into insignificance.

If anyone's interested in the breakup of State and Federal taxes, here it is (as at 2006) at http://www.cis.org.au/policy_monographs/pm73.pdf.

Dear Ludwig,

The fact is that immigration policies are controlled
by world opinion. We have to appear to be participating
in the mass population movement around the world if
we want co-operation and assistance from other nations
we have no choice. We have agreed I believe to take in
a certain number of refugees - and each elected Government
has to comply with this agreement.

As far as big business and lobbies are concerned - they do
generate jobs, they make the economy go around, and
governments have to be careful how they treat them, as we
have seen to date, a great deal of manufacturing has gone
overseas because the local environment has become
unattractive. So it is a very difficult balancing act for any
government to sustain. Some governments make the effort,
others succomb totally to big business.

At least the current government is trying to make an effort
in a reasonable direction. Question is what direction would
the previous government have taken?

I refer you to the current American Government policy which
has passed in both houses of Government.

Bail-out packages to schools, hospitals, and infrastructure,
will generate jobs for the currently employed and maybe
for additional workers. Otherwise these people would lose
their jobs in the downward spiralling economic conditions.

Admittedly it may be a short-term solution, if the world
economy keeps worsening, but the hope is that with the bail-out
packages things will not get worse.

As for financial aid to individuals, such as the unemployed,
assist them in their present crisis, and for those who are
employed, may help in paying back debts instead of losing
their homes.

Belly, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a bailout (and I certainly have no support for Fielding). I'd just want to be sure it was to be targeted to the people who need it, and in its original form, it excluded people who didn't earn enough to pay tax, for example, arguably the people most in need of all.

In your visits to Newcastle, did you ever meet Bob Rose, the (earlier) Secretary of the Waterside Workers' Federation? I was the Industrial Officer for Patricks, and Bob was my best friend in the world. They were great times for me. I did the wharfies' rosters and wages too (so there wasn't much I didn't know about what went on!!).

Moore-Wilton was probably among the most hated people in the country, when thousands of CPSU members lost their jobs; most were in the CES, and only some got the promised jobs elsewhere (Centrelink and the Job Network).

But back to the stimulus package. I think if there were to be a dissolution of both houses, Rudd would certainly get back in. And I agree that both suck up to similar degrees to big business, and big business is about the bottom line, not people (until it comes to executive salaries - think about the Telstra CEO (whose name I cannot spell!). Donations to political parties have been made deliberately impossible to track as well, despite Rudd's promises.

Maybe, at the end of the day, there isn't a politician alive who is capable of honesty and integrity, and we are choosing the best of a bad bunch (or are we?)

Nicky

“The fact is that immigration policies are controlled by world opinion.”

Foxy, Australia’s immigration policy is not at all controlled by world opinion. We have extremely high immigration for one reason: because our illustrious leader thinks that we need it in order to maintain a healthy economy…and a reasonably contented big-business sector….or perhaps the real reason is to keep the big and powerful end of town onside so that he can be re-elected.

I can’t see that there would be any significant international forces that would express outrage if we reduced our immigration rate down close to net zero…especially if we doubled our refugee intake at the same time, which could easily be done. We’d then have an immigration intake of about 35 000 per annum, of which 26 000 or more would be refugees.

“As far as big business and lobbies are concerned - they do generate jobs…”

Now hold on, in recent times, jobs have been created predominantly by increasing the rate of exploitation of primary resources and by the ever-increasing demand for all manner of goods and services due directly to high immigration.

High immigration both creates and demands many jobs. Overall, it pretty well job neutral.

“…they [big business] make the economy go around…”

They could make the economy go round just as effectively without constant expansion.

“So it is a very difficult balancing act for any government to sustain”

It is really? How do we know? No government has come anywhere near even attempting to strike the right balance, as far as I can see. ALL of them succumb to, or are happy to pander to, big business.

I reckon that if concerted efforts were made by government to achieve sustainability, we might just find that there is overwhelming public support and that it wouldn't be so difficult politically afterall.

Foxy “The fact is that immigration policies are controlled by world opinion.”

One word, Bunkum.

The Australian government decides migration rates, not some hidden hand of “world opinion”.

“So it is a very difficult balancing act for any government to sustain.”

The Howard government managed to generate huge numbers of jobs.

At the moment jobs are disappearing almost as fast as the evaporated under Keating…

It seems to me the efforts of the Howard government were more successful than the socialist governments which have flanked it.

Of course there are several aspects to investing money in a country which in turn leads to employing people,

The following are not part of any policy but observations of an number of influences which immediately spring to mind (but not all the influences)

Costs of production = Australia has a natural disadvantage compared to other nations in SE Asia due to pay rates and work practices (eg Australia and New Zealand are the only place in the world which have “long service leave” as a cost of employment.)

Ease of development … Australia has high governmental interference (building codes, EPA licencing etc) = a disadvantage

Technical ability of employee pool = Australia has an advantage at present but this advantage is being eroded by better education in SE Asia

Capital security = Australia has a huge advantage based on the history of political stability which makes an investment decision more favourable in Australia rather than (say) China or Malaysia

The politics of China are still uncertain. A lot of investors will be watching the reaction of the Chinese communist party to the recession which they have to deal with.

Mahatia implemented some very nasty pro-Malay laws which force companies to employ dead-beats in executive positions. These policies hugely detract from anyone investing in Malaysia.

South America is a hot bed of political instability. It is one of the things which has ensured the low level of economic prosperity of the entire continent, result, levels of poverty founded upon political instability.

As I said earlier, Australia found the lowest rates of unemployment under the liberal coalition government.

despite all the squandering of resources in"stimulation packages" the unemplyment rate is heading upward.

Some would say well if the liberals were in power it would be going up because of the EFC and so it might but

Would it be going up as fast?

Or

Would the policies of a Liberal government be better than the stop-start, pull this economic leaver... now push it.. approach of the Socialists?

It is a slam-dunk...

the proven ability of the liberals to effectively manage the economy leaves the socialists left standing in their dust...

In this Crisis, we would be better if the liberals were in government.

The question is not

"Have the Libs. lost the plot"

the real question is

"Will the Socialists ever discover the plot?"

And

Will our children be left paying for a range of “packages” which failed every time?

Col, your rather one-eyed conservative view, favouring the coalition, overlooks a few things.

1. Do we want slave labour/sweat shop conditions in Australia? I know I don't, and the unions have gone a long way towards addressing that
2. The Coalition, when it was in power, seriously demonised the unemployed and the poor
3. Part of what you believe was some sort of "boom" under the coalition was the simple result of the economic cycle
4. The government/s have the power to lower various taxes (payroll tax immediately springs to mind but there are others) to promote manufacturing in Australia. Whatever happened to the "Buy Australian Made" campaign?

As for "our children" having to pay for what you seem to regard as profligacy by the "socialist" agenda, well, so what? Life is like that, and difficult times call for difficult measures. If you want to leave a better place for "our children", put some investment and energy into tackling climate change as well as the social and financial agendas.

I agree with you about migration though. Howard set an agenda there. Unfortunately it included the "Tampa" embarrasment, and the "SeivX", Nauru and other ghettos. I think immigration does need to be managed in terms of its relationship to current skill shortages and employment outlooks in Australia though.

Nicky

Nicky while Col Rouge and I have nearly found common ground in one thread we never will in politics IR and much more.
One of us is going to be very disappointed after the next two elections.
One of us has not moved on from past events like the prime minister of England removed by her own party Thatcher the iron maiden.
We almost over night it seems went from boom to bust, strange that the home of capitalism killed the world economy.
Fear of socialists Col is akin to being afraid the sun will not come up, it will they never will.
How many of us who posted in this thread are not stunned that pillars of world conservatism support these measures but not the Republicans and Turnbulls Wil Robinson's?
We may see two decades pass before either gets back in power, policy's not obstruction are needed.

Belly

As Foxy Libs lost the Plot thread is getting a bit off track I will open one on unions.

We have worked shoulder to shoulder with both the last two X Federal Leaders of the AMIEU - Tom Hannon and Ross Richerson.

They can be seen on each of our web sites. Other organisations such as PAACT have also worked very very close with the old Union Heads and Branches for many years before us.

However something has happened to interfere with many years hard work from AMIUE Unions.
If you click on their sites you see a huge change now.

So belly looking forward to discuss why this has occurred on the union thread.=

Union urges protection from imports
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25000214-5013871,00.html

February 03, 2009
Article from: The Australian

THE nation's biggest blue-collar union has called on the Rudd Government to provide protection during the global financial crisis for struggling local steel and aluminium companies battling cheaper imports...

Union urges protection from imports
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25000214-5013871,00.html

Foxy wrote: "The fact is that immigration policies are controlled by world opinion."

Absolute rubbish.

Australia is a sovereign country with the right to determine its own immigration policies. The phantom of "world opinion" doesn't come into it.

"We have to appear to be participating in the mass population movement around the world if we want co-operation and assistance from other nations we have no choice."

Foxy, you appear to be very naive.

The overwhelming majority of countries do not accept immigrants. Only Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United States, Britain and few other Western countries accept permanent migrants and offer them citizenship. Australia, Canada, and New Zealand, in particular, stand out as freaks among the world's nations in terms of the huge numbers of immigrants they accept ever year. Australia, with one of the highest per capita immigration intakes in the world, is certainly not the norm.

"As far as big business and lobbies are concerned - they do generate jobs, they make the economy go around..."

Contrary to popular myth, our economy does not rely on immigration. In fact, we would do just fine without it. Unfortunately, we have a situation in Australia where our country's immigration policies have been essentially hijacked by special interest groups, mainly big business, which views immigration as both an endless source of cheap labour and additional consumer demand. Meanwhile, the rest of us are forced to carry the substantial economic, social, cultural, and environmental costs incurred by immigration. In effect, the benefits of immigration are privitised and concentrated in the hands of a few, while the costs are socialised, i.e., the average citizen has to endure all the pain with none of the gain.

The thread is drifting away from its intent.
Not sure I will join that thread PALE, need to see how it develops.
The threads title, well maybe they are searching for a way to reality.
Headlines say they want to dump shadow treasurer Julie is quite spiteful, very unattractive as a front bencher.
Migration, well 457 visas are not going to be in big numbers now, crisis has seen to that.
We may see people wanting to come from Europe in bigger numbers but not likely all can.
Bill got passed time will tell but I do believe more harm than good was done to conservatives by conservatives.

Nicky – obviously your one-eyed view of socialist welfare will always limit your vision.
I made no suggestion to support sweat shops in Australia, nor did the Howard government
The Howard government demonized no one… they just expected those who through the state owed them a living to understand real life

As Margaret Thatcher said in Statecraft

"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

The boom existed, are you suggesting it was all a massive “coincidence” for recession to dog the socialist governments and booms to enlighten the coalition ones… but even if it is a cycle.. .surely better to vote liberal-coalition and enjoy the better times than to vote socialist for the misery of unemployment and stagnation.

As to doing something about payroll taxes…
“The government/s have the power to lower various taxes (payroll tax immediately springs to mind but there are others) to promote manufacturing in Australia. Whatever happened to the "Buy Australian Made" campaign?”
One of the taxes earmarked for abolition was payroll tax when the GST came in. it was the socialist state governments who clung to it, like they have tried to cling to every other piece of money-grabbing statute they can instead of doing what they promised and relying on the monies they got from GST….

continued....

Had it been up to Federal Liberal – coalition, those taxes you talk of would have all been a thing of the past… there is no comfort or brownie point for you when it has been the socialists who broke their promise to abandon them.

“Life is like that, and difficult times call for difficult measures.”

Not when the profligacy is the function of fiscal incompetence and largesse .

Krudd & Co cannot make their mind up…

battle inflation one day, drop interest rates the next…

guarantee for banks one day … run on Superfunds the next

stimulus packages today used not to “stimulate” but to pay off the debt of yesterday

pay for the circus sand today, leave the debt for our children to pick up tomorrow.

That is not government it is knee jerk hysteria

Belly – I leave the decision on who will win the next election to the voting public.

They say a week is a long time in politics.. at the rate KRudd and Co are bungling… not soon before their “credentials for leadership" are put under question and scrutiny.

There is nothing like standing in an unemployment queue to get the mind thinking, back to the better times under the liberals…

Efranke,

I hope you stick around. I like some of your thinking.

BTW the Rudd Government cut back on the number of migrants a few months ago. Given promises made at the next elections, I was surprised although agreed with it. Pretty big step for him under the circumstances. I for one respected him a bit more for it.

Belly
That’s up to you of course. I understand the AMIEU is not within your area. You’re not bound to enter into each thread.

*Headlines say they want to dump shadow treasurer Julie is quite spiteful, very unattractive as a front bencher.
Migration, well 457 visas are not going to be in big numbers now, crisis has seen to that.*

Ar, how predictable was that. I am not a political party person. I judge by the performance of people individually. When Rudd won the elections several business leaders gathered to discuss if they should try to keep open. I recall one of those people saying.
Oh well if you think we are worried how you would like to be in Julie shoes once the unions start. We all laughed because nobody liked her thinking you little beaut she will get hers:.

Some of us however have been very impressed by her. TBO I think she would make a good PM. Also I don’t think her `s unattractive. She has a different interesting look Regardless; it’s not about people’s looks and not something that should be raised in politics if not unkind. No I am starting to warm to her.
: 457 visas for abattoirs have been manipulated by people with vetted interests. We all know that. shame

Efranke, Col Rouge,

May I say I have just read two of the best comments ever on OLO?

Col Rouge has summed up the problem with two 350 word posts

Col Rouge

To begin with, it would be a good idea if you stopped spraying the term 'socialist" around so indiscriminately. Socialism refers to a system in which the means of production are state controlled. Contrary to your wild claims, none of the Australian states are 'socialist', nor was Keating’s government and nor is Rudd’s. I'm not a 'socialist' and nor I'm sure is Nicky or any others on OLO who you label as ‘socialists’ - for no other reason than that they oppose your extreme libertarian views.

“GST is a fair tax, in that it is applied to a broad base, which uniformly taxes people's individual "consumption", rather than loading the burden of tax generation upon to those who happen to generate income or those who happen to purchase a particular class of goods.”

The GST is a regressive and inherently unfair tax. Any flat tax ends up taxing low-income earners at a much higher proportion of their disposable income than it does the wealthy. Not only is it unfair, but it is incapable of differentiating between products that end up costing society and those that are beneficial.

With the urgent need to introduce climate change abatement measures, for example, we need an intelligent tax system with the flexibility to tax carbon intensive and polluting goods and services highly and energy efficient ones much less so. Likewise, this principle could also assist greatly in reducing dependency on health damaging products such as alcohol, cigarettes and junk food and the societal costs they entail.

Instead, with John Howard and Meg Lee's GST, we’re now shackled to a simplistic and outdated taxing regime, just when we sorely need much more flexible and intelligent solutions.

Col Rouge

“There is nothing like standing in an unemployment queue to get the mind thinking, back to the better times under the liberals…”

The rise in unemployment Australia will face in the next few years is down to the deteriorating global situation, not the mismanagement of the Rudd Government. And it’s the same laissez faire, neo-liberal extreme capitalism, of which the Howard Government was a fervent supporter, which is directly responsible for the global financial crisis. The ‘better times’ you speak of were never going to last much longer. Even if the Howard Government was still in power, we’d still be facing the same crisis.

Just as unfettered capitalism brought the world economy to its knees in the 1930’s, so too has history repeated itself and the decades of free market reign and economic deregulation have once again brought us all undone. This is not the time to be talking up the free market ideology of Howard’s Liberals. Most of us have stopped listening. We can see for ourselves where that’s taken us.

Besides, the unemployment figures under Howard only told half the story. If under-employment had been honestly factored in as it should have been, they would have painted a very different picture. Working for one or two hours a week does not equate to being fully employed, and yet that’s how the figures were arrived at.

Quite apart from that little deception, casualisation and job insecurity increased markedly under Howard and Costello. Free market globalisation saw jobs move offshore and the price of labour driven down to the extent that even people working long hours were having difficulty making ends meet.

Take off the rose-coloured glasses, Col. Just as life in Britain under your beloved Maggie was tough for most working Brits, so too life under Howard was only good for some.

Bronwyn “spraying the term 'socialist" around so indiscriminately.”
I will spray as I see fit and not as you would try (and fail) to command

“The GST is a regressive and inherently unfair tax.”

Strange, it was adopted first across Europe and then UK and NZ aas well as Asutralia… the only place of significance which does not have a consumption based tax is USA and not sure about Canada… so I guess not many governments think the way you do

“Any flat tax ends up taxing…” that is it is not a flat tax..
Example of a flat rate tax would be motor vehicle registration tax.

GST is a tax which uses a common single rate of levy based on the discretionary consumption spending of everyone. Those who spend more pay more tax your suggestion the poor pay more is silly if they are poor, with less disposable income to spend on GST assessed stuff.

“With the urgent need to introduce climate change abatement measures,”

only according to the gullible wallies who believe that propaganda

“Socialism by Stealth”

something I have been commenting on here at OLO for about 15-18 months now.

“climate change abatement “ in no way alters the deception… but keep trying…

“intelligent tax system” oxymoron.

"this principle could also assist greatly in reducing dependency on health damaging products such as alcohol, cigarettes and junk food and the societal costs they entail.”

It is positively evil that any government and the little warts who support it would direct people into their choice of ingestion of legal substances, especially when those same righteous ninnies often demand the provision of drug rehabilitation clinics etc. for those who ingest illegal drugs and will stand full square against the execution of second offence drug dealers…

Talk about humbug… try rank hypocrisy

Bronwyn your leftwing/socialist intransigence and lack of reason in your posts would suggest you would be the last place I would look for anything which approaches “more flexible and intelligent solutions.”

John Howard was elected multiple times to lead this nation and did a brilliant job of it

Bronwyn,

That's an overreaction.

"The GST is a regressive and inherently unfair tax. Any flat tax ends up taxing low-income earners at a much higher proportion of their disposable income than it does the wealthy."

I don't buy a lot of stuff, but when I look at my grocery bill, the 10% GST I pay on it isn't too bad. So I'd give John Howard and Meg Lees some credit there.

No-one here's saying - at least not yet - that there should be a winding back of lower and middle-class welfare. If there was then you'd have a much stronger equity argument.

The other point is that Government is going to get its pound of flesh one way or another, so it's better that the burden is as fairly spread around as possible. If it's not a GST, who cops it in the neck then. It'll just be the middle income earners again via high rates of income tax like we have had over the past 30 years. Someone will be forced to cough up.

"With the urgent need to introduce climate change abatement measures, for example, we need an intelligent tax system with the flexibility to tax carbon intensive and polluting goods and services highly and energy efficient ones much less so."

OK, you get an intelligent tax system up and running. It taxes the right things, people migrate away from using polluting technologies and the Government suddenly isn't getting a tax bonanza. Back to the old problem of what to do then. Oops, says government, we'd better start randomly taxing again as it furiously dreams up something else to indiscriminately and arbitrarily tax.

The best solution is to eventually make the tax burden as simple and evenly applied as possible. Get rid of all those arbitrary taxes and charges and simultaneously even out the playing field so that as many people as possible can participate in the economy on a more equal basis.

*Contrary to your wild claims, none of the Australian states are 'socialist', nor was Keating’s government and nor is Rudd’s.*

Nor Was Keating? -

It was Keating who called in the Army to deal with the farmers who were protesting of the cruelty of live animal’s exports.

The Army for God sake. Wasn’t 'socialist'- huh not much.
For those of you who have been posting against this trade for two years now you also need to learn a bit of history.

Live Exports was created largely- very largely because of the trade unions.

I have seen groups following in the tracks of the Democrats who were a rubber stamp for the greens.

Now its follow the Greens- who are almost just as much a rubber stamp.
Until people learn they are the ones that must provide for their family- Or don’t have one.

Until they stop wanting everything done for them.

"Buy Australian Made and BTW we better open some places to make Australian made.

Lets face it the States have been mostly under labour and what a huge mess.

Look at the hospitals transport Police - Need I continue.

That should have read the Dems were a rubber stamp for ALP Labour.

Greens are a rubber stampt for ALP.

If people want a better life its up to each and every one of them to create it.

Its up to us to create jobs and some type of industry and for the Government to support it.

Dare I mention Live Exports again- Sorry Col.

I will tell you why it hasnt stopped. Because be it the Howard or Rudd Government its up to 'us' to put forth alternatives.

Of course we have all see what happens to those who dare to put out some alternatives and push for jobs in Australia along with some humanity for animals.

Get out and be active and create something instead of sitting back waiting for others to pay to keep you.

Mow Lawns chop wood Clean cars windows pick fruit if you have no others skills. Do something.

Thats what makes a difference to any country.

This may be a good time to take another look
at the Liberal Party...

Dennis Pryor in his booklet, "Political Pryorities:
How to get on top of Australian Politics," sums up the
Party thus:

Liberal Party

Origins: the 'Fusion Liberals' begat the
'Nationalist Party' which begat the
ironically named 'United Australia Party'
which begat, by a charismatic wave of Mr Menzies
hand, the Liberal Party.

Membership: lawyers, small business people,
big business people, stockbrokers, money marketers,
working class Tories, young people on the make,
old ladies.

Policies: 1945-1966: putting value back into the pound,
resisting the downward thrust of international communism,
keeping the Americans and the Country Party happy.
1966-1983: keeping everyone rich by printing money
and borrowing it overseas.
1984 to present: looking for a leader.

Spiritual home: going round in ever decreasing concentric
circles.

Preferred sin: greed.

Motto: omnia deducenda (Latin for 'everything should be
deductible').

By the way, the PM's bail-out package was passed in the
Senate despite the Opposition, Thanks to the Greens,
the Family First Party, and particularly the Independent,
who held out for the Murray-Darling Basin.

The Liberals will have their chance again in the future, if
things don't improve.

Col the intemperate troll: << I will spray as I see fit >>

I for one am glad that he does so, and does it so consistently and prolifically. He does a far better job of displaying exactly what kind of odious, hateful wingnut he is than anybody else could.

<< Socialism by Stealth >>

An obsessive, paranoid wingnut at that.

Foxy
My hat goes off to your fortitude sticking it out all the way. You and Bronwyn deserve awards "for services to sanity and unswerving reason against all odds" perhaps? I'll write the citation for you your acceptance speach is yours but don't go PC.

BTW some light diversionary relief: While no longer in SA I cheered Xenaphon. He is helping the economy by saving those rural people from becoming complete financial basket cases. The fact that he's helping out businesses does that make him a socialist, Liberal in disguise doing what they wanted to do but were too busy playing games or just a good senator? perhaps that's a good topic.
I admit I’m feeling sorry for the socialist under my bed he must be a little cramped(it’s a water bed). Such a misrepresented and maligned fellow too. :-)

C J M you will not change Col Rouge, he is unable to stop the insults or hide his biases.
That support for Thatcher has to be a front her own party dumped her.
Socialism by stealth? only makes me grin!
Whenever Col lets fly a bit too hard at my ALP or Rudd I picture him as Alexander Downer in those black net stockings.
By the time I stop laughing I do not remember what he said.

Ah so the truth is finally coming out. Nicky, the supporter
of a militant union like the WWF. Never mind that farmers
and other users of the wharves, like anyone who bought
imported goods, was being screwed blind by these guys.
Never mind the rorts, never mind the blatant blackmail
that was going on.

If the Libs got anything right, it was the freeing up
of the wharves.

Anyhow, at least now we know a little more about Nicky's
history, as a supporter of extreme unionism, unlike Belly,
who seems to show more balanced and reasoned judgement.

I think you might find examinator will replace Nicky for a while:)

If not buttercup will be along shortly. Gawd is it butter cup, i get them all mixed up now. Most times i can actually tell who the late arriver to the thread will be.

*This may be a good time to take another look
at the Liberal Party...*

As it might be a good time to look at ALP Foxy. Your dont like Lawyers on the lib party.

Others dont like the Trade Union officals in the ALP .I`d much prefer brains to bullies.

Attention belly I am about to say something you wont agree with OK Its political not personal.
*In the middle of last weeks heat no gloves to take ice, you will be sacked for using hands[I agree]ice is first defense from heat stroke, no gloves for a week, we got them in ten minutes.*
Belly

3 Major cases ah. Umm, I see. I am not even game to ask where they wanted to put the ice in case Morgan enters the thread-) but Your not serious. Of course you are!

May I enquire Belly- if people 'knew' they needed ice- (for whatever reason )at their job why in the hell didnt they bring their own gloves. Please explain

Also does the boss own the ice-? If so is it paid for- or Free? No air con Huh? Is this the unions new global warming policy.

In the old days at a plant- (Abattoir) the unions draw a line right down the middle of the floor.

If something broke that just required a spanner nobody was allowed to walk over that line.!

So they would all stop work, for half hour , or hour while somebody called the official spanner man to walk over the two feet imaginary line. - True.

No wonder why the Boss went broke plant after plant.

More like a screw loose to me but- pls go ahead and tell us the major problems regarding the ice and Gloves for workers belly.

Perhaps I am making pre judgemental conclusions.

Out door workers by law, must wear long sleeved shirts.
Long trousers
Hard hat
Glasses, boots, sunscreen, that is not union law company laws enforced by government instrumentality's such as work cover.
Occupational law say an employer has the DUTY to protect his/her workers.
In such heat sunstroke is a real danger.
Keeping up fluid levels is critical, signs telling workers how to watch for it are in every toilet.
Water is not piped to remote sites, even some towns near by , it is trucked in.
Ice is to cool the water, as a preventive measure for heat stroke.
Once a man with hepatitis gave it to half the job by using his hands, cut and bleeding, to get ice.
Employers, and unions,know that must never happen again, the boss will sack ANYONE getting ice without gloves.

A tool box meeting, boss has them to tell of future plans and get feed back, asked or gloves, a week passed no gloves no ice no cool water 38 degree heat.
Ice inches away the sack if caught getting it.
I got the gloves, BUT supervisor taking them to job, left it till lunch 2.5 hours before taking them out of his glove box!
So PALE once more you launch into unions boots and all, often you sing the praises of one who you claim supports you but what is so wrong about my story?
Yabby yes Howard did use tactics that I dislike him still for, but the end result was a good one, the idea that all unionists are non workers is wrong.
Now at a tool box, one week after the gloves got requested , one hour after they arrived the site safety manager said these words, next time you want something ask instead of complain to the union.
That thing! in his former life, before turning from a butter fly into a grub, was a union delegate in construction, very radical one too.
He forgot the request had sat on his desk for a week.
I had made yet another effort PALE.

CJMoron "Col the intemperate troll:"

If I needed advise on trolls you would be a reliable example.

there with the irrelevant, inflammitory aside... a throw away line...

Rover run after this line if I throw it...

Go Rover... chase the troll

(you are used to the dust kicked up by me heels... you have been chewing it long enough)

Belly "That support for Thatcher has to be a front her own party dumped her."

but she was "good enough" for 15 years....

I was there in UK when she was elected into her 12 years of primeministership.

I knew and lived with the threat from the leftie/socialist liars she stood against..

Foot and Benn were the lowest scum, bereft of practical ideas and full of socialist ideology they were intent on choking everyone else with.

A party manifesto which was more left wing than the Italian communist party.

Against them stood Margaret Thatcher and the British people who elected her to a landslide.

And the irony, her work at renegotiation the stupid terms the Socialist trough snorters signed up to for entry to the EU has continued to benefit every UK Government since Majors, Blair and Brown into the future

As well as the longest continuously serving British Prime Minister 150+ years, her legacy has continued to benefit governments and the ordinary people of UK every since... because she turned around the "give-up" begging bowl attitude of the swill humpers she opposed and replaced.

Ultimately every political leader either dies in office or gets dumped... Hayden, Hawke, Keating, Beazley, Creen, Latham, it is always a toss up between political ally and a funeral director.

The difference, Margaret Thatcher was the longest continuously serving UK prime minister since 1827.

A National and World leader her role in politics was she had the support and staying power... unlike socialists.. who change their leaders like their underpants and the names of their failed and recycled policies.

"By the time I stop laughing I do not remember what he said."

Yep short term memory loss... like a socialist politician and his election promises.

I am not aware of any socialist politicians in Australia. I also dislike the mentality of those who would 'sponge' off society.

How many CEOs and major executives have accepted millions in salary, bonuses, payouts despite a downturn in the share price, who have presided over the sacking of staff in the interest of their careers, who have pushed jobs offshore,who embraced Work Choices so they could sup at the table more and who have reduced 'real' services. And are quite willing to take money from the public purse as a result of shoddy economic and business practices.

Why do we perceive those on pensions or benefits in such an undeserving light compared to those at the big end of town? Corporate welfare and middle class welfare is deemed essential to our economy but those who are disabled, caring for the disabled, unemployed are viewed as pariahs of society and barely survive on the meagre pensions they qualify for. In my role I see too many fall through the net.

I hope Obama's push to cap executive salaries of those companies who are accepting corporate welfare payments is successful but I doubt it. There are too many with their hands in the communal trough from both government and private interest groups.

The greatest lesson (from my view anyway) is that for others to live better and in the interests of sustainability, we need to be willing to reduce our own standard of living. We have to change the definition of the world 'efficiency' in the prevailing mindset. Efficiency should reflect quality in the service or product rather than in the share price. In a non-competitive market that we have created through monopolies, the people most affected are the consumer and the lower end employees.

Surely we should be aiming to reduce disparity.

I for one am sick of paying more for less and then being asked to pay more again through taxes to prop up those that make me pay more for less.

To All of You I'd simply like to say - Thanks!

Why? Well, I think you're all rather terrific.

It's because of our differences - that I value
the input.

Take care,

Col, as I've told you before, "advise" is a verb and "advice" is its noun form. It'd be understandable if English was your second language. We'll just have to conclude that you're a bit thick.

More wingnut obsession about the revolting Thatcher. Keep it up, Col.

Dear CJ,

If Maggie Thatcher doesn't appeal to you,
how about the following?:

Half a pound of Mandy Rice
Half of Christine Keeler
Mix it up, what do you get?
A very sexy sheila :)

"Surely we should be aiming to reduce disparity."

Pelican hits the nail on the head with this comment. Our problems are caused because we are living out of balance and, in the case of many in the Western world, beyond our means.

"The greatest lesson (from my view anyway) is that for others to live better and in the interests of sustainability, we need to be willing to reduce our own standard of living. We have to change the definition of the world 'efficiency' in the prevailing mindset. Efficiency should reflect quality in the service or product rather than in the share price. In a non-competitive market that we have created through monopolies, the people most affected are the consumer and the lower end employees."

Pretty much right in my view.

The solution is that everyone starts to do what they are NOT so good and strong at. The only variable is whether or not people decide to do this voluntarily. If not, I'm sure that when their survival is on the line, the ones that need to and can successfully adapt will find a way.

*long sleeved shirts.
Long trousers
Hard hat
Glasses, boots, sunscreen, *

Your saying the company pays for all of the above?

Gee no wonder the poor buggers can’t afford to buy some plastic gloves :)

Why don’t you cut a deal with the water transport to supply gloves- ice merchant.

You should talk with the Truckies union-or regional deveopment. They get grants for everything. Rubber gloves- no problem.

*Once a man with hepatitis gave it to half the job by using his hands, cut and bleeding, to get ice.*

Belly are you telling me, that a bloke with a contagious disease, like Hepatitis, is allowed to work in high degrees with a group of other people and share the same toilet.

Do tell me what they sings read. Watch out Jack was here last:)

Do you know high the risk is of catching something in high temperatures?

Why wasn’t he on sick leave. Why were the others put at risk in the first place.

I thought you said unions were thereto protecting people.



So why don’t they run a generator ice chest and keep their own ice just BTW.
Or is there are regional grant involved with the transport company.

*Employers, and unions, know that must never happen again, the boss will sack ANYONE getting ice without gloves.*

Ok good, and so he should sack them.

But as they ‘know’ why on earth don’t they bring them to work with them?

Seems a bit irresponsible to not protect your ‘own health’ and your children family they go home to. Don’t you agree?

* So PALE once more you launch into unions boots and all, often you sing the praises of one who you claim supports you*

As you said Belly, some unions are good- some nit picking costly useless pretty time wasting fools.

*I had made yet another effort PALE.*

Yes belly you have. But you STILL haven’t told me who pays for the gloves and why pls.


But what is so wrong about my story?

Nothing belly thank you . We love your stories, more pls.

Foxy Mandy and Christian would be older than me now anything younger on offer?
Col highest regards, seems you are an English man?
May explain the complaining but the endless insults?
PALE, no sorry I back out with this quote from memory of the occupational health and safety laws of NSW Work cover.
When PPE, personal protective equipment is being used on site.
The employer SHALL provide it free of change.
This may include protection from heat or cold sunscreen and what ever is deemed to be needed.
On every entry to a construction site, every site, a sign is on display.
It shows a head and shoulder view of a man, tells you that you MUST have as PPE hard hat, boots steel toe capped, glasses long pants, long sleeved shirt, high visibility clothing covering 80% of the visible torso.
However I am heartened, always, by people who get stuck into unions displaying near total lack of knowledge of the subject
regards PALE.
OH PS BOSS Trucks in the water in hired licensed water trucks, gloves? PPE!

Dear Belly,

The Mandy and Christine ditty was directed at CJ -
not liking Maggie Thatcher - so I tried to stick
with that age group.

But for you Belly, of course I'll come up with
something younger - just give me a day or so... :)

Foxy,

I always thought the rhyme went:

"Half a packet of Mandy Rice,
half a pound of Keiler.
Put 'em together and what do you get?
Two sexy sheilas!"

What's your reference? Memory, hard copy, or a link?

I'm quite prepared to defer to your recollection, as you were right about Lester Moore some while back. I had said ".... Four shots from a .44", whereas your quotation of it was ".... Four slugs from a .44". The instant I saw it I knew you had quoted it correctly. My mind must have been elsewhere at the time - probably on the duelling ground.

The Profumo Affair rhyme brought to mind a pithy observation from around that time (and one currently sadly topical), I think as a caption of a cartoon: "Profumo ergo ignio"; Smoke, therefore fire.

BTW, speaking of Fractelle (which we weren't), an explanation for her non-posting, other than a 'worst case' scenario of having been burned out, could well be that electricity supplies to her Yarra Ranges abode may have been seriously disrupted. That could mean no computer, as she has said her machine was an older one, probably not a laptop. Be like Brian, Foxy, and always look on the bright side of life.

Belly
I tend to agree with you not every unionist as a communist or extremist bludger unionists come is flavours from the sublime to the ridiculous as in every other form of individuals. Only fools and axe grinders lump all as one amorphous indivisible lump.
The laws are there to protect life and limb. If a business can't afford to supply a safe working place it can't afford to be in business.

I do love a good missionary from the master race (English).
They come here and wax lyrical about the country they left and try to make here in the same image. Isn't that what the 18th, 19th & 20th century missionaries did and that was a blinding failure we're still picking up the pieces today i.e. the aboriginals’ plight. But I’m sure the latter-day missionaries have sensitive and meaningful suggestions on that front. After all look at their (less than )Glorious PAST.
Have the anglophiles aka Liberals lost the plot You Bet.

Did they ever have the plot?
Even today the odd English Missionary comes here and deems to tell us how good the old country is/was with tales of long forgotten irrelevant British heroes/heroines.

We hear about Winny and how brilliant he was for England, perhaps. He was the architect and advocate for the Dardanelles strategy In WW1 ….Gallipoli successful effort? Then as PM in WW2 he wanted to defend mother England first and Australia…oh well, maybe later.
Mind you Menzies (liberal Iconic PM) wanted to be PM of England. Fortunately the Labor PM didn’t agree. Then “all the way with LBJ” another sad war loss. Liberals last offering Howard (a royalist and Menzies devotee) Yet another pointless war.

Now the missionaries offer the Baroness Thatcher as a shining example … of what?
As I’ve said before No university teaches or advocates her utterances/policies, why? Perhaps because none of her economic ideology were actually hers they were regurgitated from 60/70’s extremist economic *Theory*.
And then there was that land slide. English pride if nothing else is reactionary and anachronistic. Yes folks the landslide was motivated by the Falklands war.

Having lost their empire and arguably helping to screw up the Middle East along the way, the Brits pride was miffed at a challenge for few wind swept islands at the end of the earth. Total population less than 200 people. Commonsense could have repatriated the islanders to Britain and bought them small holdings like Kent (well a goodly slab of it) for less and no loss of life.

So how many died in the name of British pride? Look it up. How much was spent on the war? How much has/does it cost to maintain those god forsaken islands since that time, with its war ships, garrison and infrastructure? Couldn’t Britain use that wasted money now? To fix another screw up… their economy.
At best she was a transitory character in 1980’s context but from historic perspective just another self serving politician. One can ask we should follow their lead why?

Gracious is it 2009 already how time flies
.

Everybody bar rstuart is missing the point the IMF, known for advising for low-taxes and against pork-barrelling, auggests large stimulus packages to get money pumping through the economy. In fact, they've made the point that delays in these stimulus packages are causing damage.

If you look at the background of the IMF, you see how different this advice is to their typical agenda.

Col, you asked why I think Howard would be doing what Rudd's doing, and said my claims were pure speculation.

To an extent, that's all such a claim as mine or yours can be, but I can persuasively argue that your claim is by far the more ridiculous.

People, allow me to make this clear: THE IMF, THE WORLD AUTHORITY ON MONETARY POLICY IS ADVISING THIS ON A FAR LARGER SCALE THAN WHAT RUDD IS DOING, and THE IMF IS KNOWN FOR BEING STINGY ON HANDOUTS!

Apologies for the capitals, but many of you aren't getting this, nor are you rebutting this, the very heart of this debate.

Howard would be the same:
1) Howard was no stranger to middle class welfare. It blew out under his regime.
2) Howard would no more buck the IMF then give the Queen the finger. His success is due to mirroring IMF advice.
3) To pretend he wouldn't do what every other government, conservative or liberal, is doing, is idiocy. When the economy tanked, he'd be crucified for doing nothing.

The crucial aspect of this IMF advice is the economy needs funds to continue spending ASAP.
Infrastructure results in slow spending. Rudd's foreshadowed large public works projects, but these wouldn't provide the initial spending boost. Again, IMF advice.
Remember, that Rudd is spending far less than the majority of western governments. In relative global terms, he's hardly the drunken spending 'socialist' he's being portrayed as. That notion is idiotic when looked at in context of the IMF prescription.

Honestly. This stimulus package is small when looked at globally, and ask yourself if we're so special that economic advice would be entirely different for our nation than everywhere else.

Yabby
Yep your stop on. Imo always been a front for ALP- only thing is believe it or not only 'one' of them knows it.


Forrest Gumpp

We’re wondering if OLO should start a collection thread for any fellow OLO users. If it turns out none of our OLO posters were affected (which we all hope, not) were effected, it could be sent to Red Cross.
Perhaps GY would do it. What are your thoughts pls. Plus everybody else on this.

(Now considering you have gone off topic) and while your here .You led us to think you were looking into duel ids
It doesn’t look like GY is going to do anything.
So where does that leave us all in your opinion-

*PALE, no sorry I back out with this*
Belly
Excuse me, ‘you’ raised it
By backing legging it now, it doesn’t leave much room for credibility.

Surely those people you represent, would like to think you would stand up and argue, their position a bit better than that.


The great work done by AMIEU over many years and why we have all supported them for many years I am happy to discuss.
Foxy`s big on ALP perhaps she might help to answer pls.?

Belly, why are your answers always insults made personally when you can’t answer simple questions.

I note that is standard right through this thread by ALP supporters.

BTW the X Federal Leader of a union is a both work and personal friend so I know quite a bit about union concerns.

My question was in such hard times ahead why can’t each man/ woman supply their own plastic gloves pants boots sunscreen.

As individuals we can all cope with a few dollars but load that onto companies by the hundreds and it really adds up.

For that matter even in good times. I just don’t understand why others would someone else to buy their clothes gloves.

Or why ALP supporters feel they should.?

PALE&IF: << it doesn’t leave much room for credibility >>

Unlike PALE&IF's endless rants, that invariably leave voluminous room for some kind of credibility.

I think Wendy Lewthwaite should stand for preselection for the Liberal Party (or the idiotic LNP) in a Gold Coast electorate.

That would be a great test of PALE&IF's credibility.

Dear Belly,

This is the best that I could come
up with, under such short notice, I hope it'll
do:

"Julie Bishop's not real cool,
Julia Gillard's no one's fool,
But of all the sheila's that you'd like to meet,
Jennifer Hawkins is hard to beat!"

Miss Universe at that!

Dear Forrest Gumpp,

The rhyme about Mandy and Christine - memory? (hardly,
before my time), or a link? Nope. It actually came out
of a text book on children's literature - which I thought
was apt for CJ. as he doesn't like Maggie Thatcher.

As for your Monty Python reference - Yes, dear heart,
I always try to look on the Bright Side of Life!
The film is one of my favourites!

Dear PALE&IF,

I'd be happy to answer your question (or questions), if I
knew what it is that you want to know.

Examinator “English pride if nothing else is reactionary and anachronistic.”

Oh that we should all live a life filled with a sense of pride and purpose.

I wonder what sort of small mind, soulless spirit, bereft of character, finds contentment in sneering at the pride other people have in their history?

I suppose, someone who has an ancestry devoid of anything to take pride in, an ancestry which has only managed to issue forth the bilious vomit of envy.

As for the Falklands, surrendering the homeland of 400 or 40 million people to a despot (Argentinean or otherwise) would be the cowardly path of appeasement.

Chamberlain appeased Hitler when he stood back and did nothing about the German invasion of Austria.

And appeasement did Chamberlain no good, nor the people of Poland and nor the other nations of Europe. …

Pontificating on the malignantly contrived errors of someone who has the backbone to stand up to despots (rather than take the appeasers easy course), suggests you have neither the intellectual insight nor knowledge of history to appreciate the nature of real politics.

Such weak willed cowardice might work for you but it does not convince me. Although it probably finds favour with other malcontents as they , grapple with realisation of their own manifest insignificance.

Like Margaret said

“I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.”

Although being gummed by a snail or other inconsequential invertebrate could hardly be described in terms of “an attack is particularly wounding”

Belly it occurs to me when you suggest

“That support for Thatcher has to be a front her own party dumped her.”

After 15 years as leader of UK Conservative Party’

Hawke 1983-1991
Keating 1991-1996
Beazley 1996-2001
Crean 2001-2003
Latham 2003-2005
Krudd 2005 to date


Nothing close to 15 years

that makes her several times the best of any contemporary Aussie Labor party boss

and that speaks volumes for Margaret Thatcher success versus the sub-standard offerings of Australian Labor Party.

Margaret Thatcher - puke.

<< I wonder what sort of small mind, soulless spirit, bereft of character, finds contentment in sneering at the pride other people have in their history? >>

Yes, I've often wondered why Col Rouge loves to sink the boot into the history of his adopted country's Indigenous people.

I guess it's because he has a small mind and is bereft of character.

Why do we import these twats?

Can anyone direct me to where Belly has "insulted" PALE? Or is that PALE's understanding of a difference of opinion?

Belly, it is fortunate that unions have been around to ensure the safe working conditions that we are able to insist on now. The only reason, in my experience, that employers put money into OH&S is to minimise their risk management and workers' compensation expenditure. It is rarely because they care particularly for the welfare of the worker. And the items Belly mentioned (protective equipment), PALE, are really quite minimal in the broader scheme of things, and these days are usually contained in Awards, legislation or other industrial instruments. You really should inform yourself better if you want to argue the toss with someone of Belly's experience.

Yabby, where did I say that I supported rorts in the waterfront? Or militancy in any particular form? I basically said that it was a time in my life that I have good memories about. I also believe that putting armed guards with savage dogs in there was hardly to be recommended as a negotiation/conciliation process; in that context Peter Reith got everything he deserved. But you read what you want into that. Frankly, nothing would make me happier than to see farmers stopped from shipping live animals out of the country; in that context I wish the wharfies still wielded the power they did. In my experience when I worked there, the majority did a fair day's work for a fair day's pay - and that's the same as any workplace. But you probably don't have anything much to do with contemporary workplace practice or industrial relations, do you?

Nicky

Samuel Johnson, an Englishman said “patriotism is the last resort of a scoundrel “
He warned that if the only argument was patriotism (national pride) , beware there is chicanery afoot. I would suggest take pride in what you do not pride in what others have done. I can assure you they weren't thinking of you, more likely themselves.

My post albeit with tongue firmly planted in my cheek and laced with mischievous tones was historically factual. At no time did I attack the individual other than to draw an obvious comparison between the zeal of past and present missionaries.

I notice with wry amusement that not one fact I offered has been refuted…
The chicanery here was list of irrelevancies and personal abuse.
Amongst which a list of Aussie PMs with the assertion that Thatchers 15 years as Brit PM proves something.

If longevity is the measure how long was Stalin at the head of USSR? Does that mean We should emulate his policies? One could say that her reign was proof that the English voter puts more stock on their pathetic anachronistic colonial memories and/or pride than Billions of pounds and how many lives it cost(s).

The notion that Argentina had ambitions above its station… “Falklands today England tomorrow” is absurdity its self.

To constantly cite this shameful events’ architect who objectively had a rather tenuous grip on common sense and whose views are not relevant to either today or Australia(ns). I see no essential difference in this and David’s carping.

As for British historic concern for Aus I tendered Winny. A Brit might argue that is proper given they were British PMs and I would concur. But the Quantum leap that we (Australians) should be proud of it and/or therefore take advice from British PMs is frankly cultural arrogance and stupidity from the suggestee.
PS This is Australia not UK.

NB In a previous post on this topic I said both sides of politics have lost the plot and thus far I see no reason to alter that opinion.

Examinator, in terms of argument rebuttal, one would think that my assertions in relation to IMF policy recommendations would be a foremost consideration in relation to this discussion. I even went as far as to use caps, something which I am loathe to do. Frankly, I thought I'd put forward pretty unassailable facts which deserve further scrutiny.

Apparently not. Chicanery appears to be the order of the day. However, given that 'losing the plot' was part of the title, perhaps it was inevitable.

Allow me to do the honours:

Thread time of death: 1:05:36 AM.

However, I'm reliably informed that brain function ceased considerably earlier.

Gday Foxy , I have met her, she is beautiful on the inside and out.
She is first rate, while due to my age I play 3rd reserves, never play our side your class if you want to look like a star.
PALE much of our differences is because you do not understand my words.
PLASTIC gloves?
They are what they must be, single use throw aways, surely your interest in meat manufacturing told you that?
reusing gloves is no better than dirty hands.
I said I backed out , of truly saying PALE how disjointed and uninformed your post was.
no way I am getting back into verbal tennis with your group, but please re read others posts, then your own, before launching at them.
Col Rouge while not much interested in your words, can you justify the spite, anger, plain rudeness you so often display?

PALE&IF,

With Foxy's indulgence, as this is now a fairly long thread that has begun to meander a little, and as she herself has expressed concern in respect of OLO users caught up in the Victoria bushfire event, I will give you my views on the question you posed in this post: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2509#56664 , to wit:

"We’re wondering if OLO should start a collection thread for any fellow OLO users. If it turns out none of our OLO posters were affected (which we all hope, not) were effected, it could be sent to Red Cross. Perhaps GY would do it. What are your thoughts pls."

It is a nice thought, but I suspect seriously impractical. If you accept the explanation given by OLO as to the encryption key protection of the claimed true identity of any registered OLO user made at time of registration on the site (which I do), you must realize GrahamY may be quite literally unable to determine the real identity of any user for purposes of forwarding any support to, or on behalf of, individuals affected by the fires, even if OLO was able to handle the administrative load involved.

It is probably best to simply donate to the accredited bushfire appeal if you wish to help.

Bear in mind that many OLO users do not post in their real names for good reason. Fractelle's is a case in point. If you are familiar with some of her posts you would realize her reasons are claimedly related to past experience as a victim of violence, and to fears as to future stalking should details, beyond those she has revealed herself, as to where she lives become known.

As to the matter of multiple OLO accounts being held by one user (sockpuppetry), I fear you have drawn the wrong inference from my use of the term 'duelling ground' if you thought I was making an oblique reference to 'dual identities'. This: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2063#42889 , and later posts, explains.

TRTL,
Yes there is merit in what you say however the link to the topic posed is as tenuous the Baroness is both ideologically and contextually to current circumstances.
The speculation charge is valid but peripheral to the question.
My over arching point was that politician of any persuasion are all too often more concerned about trivialities like ideological party market differentiations and political longevity than real issues.

Howard’s success is relative and I would posit more a case of his lowest common denominator appear and rat cunning that anything else.

The IMF is hardly an objective organization which may or may not be the best for the majority of everyone affected by their prognostications. Theirs is an ‘authority” base on a number of tendentious principles.
• That might is right
• That economics is a science as opposed to highly interpretive skill.
• That capitalist economic theory the way *it is* practiced is the best way to go.
• That they aren’t caught up in global *Economics ideological fads de jure* some of which have proven to be horribly flawed.
• That it is representative of the world. This is widely disputed given it excludes a number of important players.
• That they aren’t influenced by dominating 1st world interests/values.
One could argue that their current strategy is ’deja vu all over again’.

The current system is broken and Ad hoc jury rigging or returning to past ideologies is clearly floundering hoping for a solution. As a humanist (not socialist) I question if propping up the Status Quo is something we should be striving for.

In the context of the topic as writ I question if either side has fully grasps the plot, or has the guts to challenge/reign in power structures and therefore really knows what to do next.

Dear examinator,

The point that I was trying to make was that under the
current world economic situation where the opinion of economic
experts like the International Monetary Fund, stated that
Governments have to bail out their own economic crisis and do it swiftly to restrain a slide into economic chaos.

This is what the Australian Government is currently doing with no help from the Opposition. It at least gives people some hope
and encourages business to make an effort.

Or we can all go to Church and pray for a miracle. :)

Forrest Gump

Let’s hope all are Ok. We Will send funds to Graham to pass on anyway.
GY has details of everybody, and people only need write to that person via him offering assistance and he can forward it . Or call.

For the record, should anybody need to contact the author of a post, they must go through Mr Young. He is then obligated to write to that person and notify them of the complaint gift and forward any ‘docs.

If for another example, the matter was such of - let’s say legal matter or defamation, he is obliged to forward /disclose the true identity of that poster or forward summons .etc Depending on court orders

Mr Young has warned posters in the past the comments they make they ‘own despite using a fake id tag.’ We saw the most discusting words posted by Morgan about Cols mother. I complained to GY. There should be NO tollerance of that .
I was a victim of something similar about a family member who has passed.

I don’t think GY would mind forwarding a donation- but hey look I will simply ask.
Thanks for your response.

*PALE much of our differences is because you do not understand my words.
PLASTIC gloves?*

Belly for goodness sake, stop running and answer the question.

Foxy Yes pls thankyou- The question was in these difficult times do you feel its fair to ask staff to buy their own clothes and Gloves- plastic Cotton or otherwise?( for bellys benefit )

Nicky,
I`m not reading your post, but I am sure, its Pro ALP. Good for you but don’t you think its time to tell members: after twenty years.)

If you knew anything, about the 'reason' in the first place for live exports ,you would know the part that was played by the bastard boys.

Later GOOD men tried to fix it. So support Mr Keating, who brought in the Army to toss the farmers off the warf`s protesting about the cruelty.

":TBO I am “delighted” the truth is out about your mob at last!?:

Is anyone able to make any sense about this last lot of claptrap from PALE? For the record, PALE was the "victim" of a comment about its slaughterhouse website, nothing more, nothing less. As for "not reading my post", don't make me laugh. I do not have to disclose my political preferences to you or anyone else. They are, however, dependent on the stated policies of the parties at the time of election, and certainly have not remained static for 20 years. As for the "good men" trying to stop the cruelty, those would be the people who cannot get animals onto ships fast enough, would they not?

I have been with members of the Maritime Union, CFMEU and AMIEU at live export protests. The MUA (and ALNSW) had a ship sent back to Adelaide, refusing to load it in Newcastle. Do get a grip on reality. Belly's posts are infinitely more intelligible than PAKE's. If you can't understand his message, then it means that you cannot understand plain English, but we knew that. When will you learn that "disgusting" is not spelled with a "c"?

And to what particular "proof" do you refer?

I should imagine that Graham would recommend that people seeking to donate to any appeals should do so through the approved/accredited agencies; it is not a function of an online forum site to collect donations for such purposes, particularly when the agencies already doing so are doing such an excellent job. But PALE clearly thinks the suggestion makes it look good; another of its bright ideas that is totally impractical and goes nowhere.

Nicky

I don't know if the Libs have lost the plot or not, but PALE&IF certainly has.

CJ, PALE never HAD the plot.

Nicky

I am aware of that post can not understand it but am aware.
I must use self control so no further mention of it or its author.
However ,yes it is a good idea the thought we should donate, bet every one of us who can has done so already.
I too fear for our missing poster but lets not forget we all stay away for a while.
She may be flat out helping, GY knows or should all our names, he is free to divulge mine for the right reasons to the right person.
I troubled by constant insults released my true name in full here, we do not have to.
We should avoid being pushed to do so, it serves no purpose and is rarely done world wide.
If one of us, our group family, call it what you want was in trouble most would help, but maybe we should wait, acting without need is unwise feelings can be hurt.
Please thread after thread see claims of one person two or more ID,s it has been claimed, read other threads and this one, no wont say it but look for such claims about the time our concerns first surfaced.

Dear PALE&IF,

I know these are tough times but regarding staff
buying their own uniforms - I guess that would
depend on the policy of the business. As for plastic
gloves - I would have thought those would be provided
by the company. As in hospitals, for example.

I hope this helps.

Dear Foxy,

I know these are tough times*
Yep, especially for companies to provide jobs.
That’s what the stimulus package is for isn’t it ?
It shouldn’t be the soul responsibility, of Kevin Rudd or the business owners.

*Regarding staff buying their own uniforms - I guess that would
depend on the policy of the business*
Good heavens Foxy, that’s why we are here -to ‘look’ at those policy’s’
That was the question whether or not we should change the policy. ?
That’s not an answer Foxy... Please just say what ‘you’ personally think.
(I will ask again.)
Dear Foxy, under the circumstances, do you agree we could ‘all help to keep jobs in Australia . Should we be taking some of the pressure off companies?
Maybe buy volunteering purchase our own clothes boots etc
… If not why not. ?

Please explain to me why you feel ‘you should buy ‘my boots clothes gloves just because you were good enough to employ me.
I put it to you union officials could perhaps work as guidance advisors and councillors discussing in private each owner’s position along with each of their members . I know If I* could ring my companies union rep and say, hey we are in trouble to keep the doors open – can we talk. If the rep then sat with me and discussed ways to retain my business and those peoples jobs I would welcome the change. If my union official then said to my workers ok boys lets all work to keep these doors open- Who can afford to bring their own gloves and buy their own boots this year- Hands up

That would be a good union Foxy for workers and all Australians. Instead we have the poor man verse rich man mentality. Good unions must be led by people brave enough to say what they think and preferably with a big heart.=

Belly said
*However, yes it is a good idea the thought we should donate, bet every one of us who can have done so already.*

You know you unionists just don't get it do you.

Pale has suggested that workers should provide their own sunscreen, clothing, safety boots, hats etc, after all, they can claim it back when they do thier tax.

The real point is though is that these items, although appearing to be small, when mulitplied add ip to a great deal of dollars.Let's say $400 for the point of the excercise.

Now what happens is a company quotes on a job. They take into account ALL expenses, add thier margin and bingo, up comes the end price.

So all of a sudden your tiny little $400 investment X 200 WORKERS becomes an additional $80,000 added to the cost of the job which when finnished, with the margins added in blows the job out.

Well dome you union activists, you have just raised the cost of your own house, road taxes, the list goes on.

GET IT!

It's easy to see who are the "employers" here, isn't it (although PALE, I suspect, does not employ anyone).

There is a difference between the provision of essential safety equipment, which (as I pointed out earlier), is usually within the provisions of awards or other industrial instruments and legislation, and uniforms which may be the choice of the employer. If an employer expects an employee to wear such items where there is no other adequate reason then the employer should provide them.

Rehctub, I think your reasoning is a little flawed. The costs you describe are the costs of doing business in this country. Those costs include compliance with all relevant legislation including OH&S statutes. If you're that concerned about it, perhaps you should be asking Rudd and the State governments to drop some of the other taxes on doing business. Safety should never be a matter of compromise.

Employers who pay employees the minimum under awards, or worse, negotiated AWAs (which are now illegal and may or may not have passed the so-called "fairness test" - and plenty didn't) should not be expected to work in unsafe (or unhealthy) conditions under any circumstances. They are unlikely to be able to afford to buy their own safety equipment. It is not negotiable.

There are reasons for Occupational Health and Safety laws. If you two can't get your heads around that you shouldn't be even thinking of employing people, whose safety would clearly be at risk if you had your way.

The unions with whom I have worked have always negotiated. You just may not have liked their terms. Vilifying them is not a good look in terms of a basis for negotiation or compromise.

Nicky

Rechtub I expected better from you, truly I understand your biases against workers.
Yes not just unions ,tell us again how you love those who work for you but the truth shines a different light on you.
Do you buy butchers aprons? knifes?
Do you understand it is not union law but O H and S law?
That it in fact costs more than you quoted price to outfit a construction worker?
How you rechtub can blame unions for this is beyond me, another ? yes I understand some are so completely lost they can not be blamed but you?
In the 1970,s Australia began to import from England a new way of Occupational Health and Safety.
IN the 1990s we had adopted Thatchers system near word for word.
Now it still is the basic system we have, an employer has to consult with his employees on safety, spend an amount on training, and if he/she has enough workers form a safety group, meeting monthly over looking job safety.
Union have nothing to do, nothing , with PPE only to see the employer obeys the LAWS
again however it gives me great joy, truly, to see you and another jump in the deep end without being able to swim, understanding an issue is a good idea before slandering any one.
Nicky, regards, you know as I do you waste your time with that group, but thanks for the support a side issue taking the thread away from its path but how new is that for some?
Recommended reading work cover NSW that will get you to the site then type in PPE interesting stuff worth a read.

GEE can we get away from that word uniform? its PPE.
Construction workers are out in the sun, rarely any roof over their heads.
They mostly work 6 ten hour days, often 12 and near jobs end 7 days, standard issue is 5 high visibility shirts, mandatory on site
two pairs trousers now mostly long and mandatory.
Hard hat ditto, glasses safety ditto.
winter jacket or jumper.
Gloves work ditto, this has been the case for a very long time, nothing new here.
You will be sacked for not wearing any of the above, forgot ear muffs, sometimes plugs as well as muffs, again no wear no job, so tell me again about evil unions?
you have to laugh just have to, look too at the work cover page for information on construction amenities lunch rooms, before asking workers to eat on their lunch boxes in the sun
thoughts rechtub?

Dear PALE&IF,

I don't understand what your problem is quite frankly.
Some companies provide equipment, other employers
leave it up to the workers to choose. So what's the
problem?

If you're suggesting that small businesses
would save on jobs if the workers provided their own
equipment - I'm sure that some employers would be very
happy if the workers were to volunteer that option.
But as I said in my previous post - it's up to the
employer and employee to negotiate what will suit them
both

it's up to the
employer and employee to negotiate what will suit them
both
An interseting point you make foxy. Only trouble is that unless the employee gets what the union wants, which is often not the employees own demands, then your system is flawed. So much for a level playing field hay!

And belly, once again you missed my point completely, along with your friends.

Why do you think we pay the huge rates we pay now? It's because costs have blown out, land values only equate for some of the rises.

And once again you are trying to make me out as the villan employer. For the record I reward my staff well, supply thier uniforms because I want them to all look neat and tidy. Otherwaise I don't get paid as I only get paid whan sale are made, not that you would give a toss!

There are some perks though. If I want to upgrade my boat I just cut staff. Sorry couldn't help myself.

!

Continued
And do you know the ironic part about it all. The employees from these large job sites often bitch and winge now because they no longer receive a tax refund as they have nothing to claim. Try explaining that to someone who can't string more than two words together! Often because they chain smoke or are intoxicated after each days work.

Meat workers are a classic agample of over done union interuption. Many of them are worse off today than they were 15 years ago all because they couldn't see the forrest for the trees but the unions just kept pushing.

And finally, who is going to pay back Mr Ruds latest 42 billon in hand outs. Remember, only 58% of us pay positive taxes. Are your guys part of that 58% or are you just ones from the 42% that take all on offer then winge. I hope he does raise the gst so you can all pay, although it will cut into my spending money!

Time to come clean guys!

The recent labour market world you have known for the past decade is about to end. Many of you are in for a reality check I would think

Forrest

"As to the matter of multiple OLO accounts being held by one user (sockpuppetry), I fear you have drawn the wrong inference from my use of the term 'duelling ground' if you thought I was making an oblique reference to 'dual identities'. This: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2063#42889 , and later posts, explains."

Thanks for posting that link, Forrest. Just had a re-read of that thread. It would have to be right up there as one of my all time favourites - along with Foxy's dinner party thread, and also a feminist thread that went on forever - can't remember its title.

I love it when you break into a little jousting and duelling! :)

rechtub if you put the same effort into understanding the issues as you did being snide you would be better informed.
This is not new, it has been law from the 1990,s
the firms are not small business mostly in fact our largest construction groups.
Like your aprons, just like your aprons, tax breaks are given to employers for these tools of the trade.
deaths and serious injury are a fact in construction, PPE is one way, not the only way, to try to stop it.
Firms sack workers for not wearing the supplied gear, and their brand name on that gear.
They want their sites to look good, leave containers with the firms name, as bill boards for years after a project.
Are you rechtub willing to admit you use any phantom to flog unions?
You flog a dead horse here bloke, every word proves my point. unions are not all bad, some claims made against them are idiotic,baseless, rubbish.
Find work cover NSW read PPE find the site of ANY of our largest construction firms, lets say ABI, or Thiess, read their PPE policy.
See it is them, NOT UNIONS who impose these rules.
I truly did you know? I expected better from you, we have crossed swords but you are no mug why the blindness on this issue?

Well belly we can go on for ever over this union issue. I have always said that unions have a place in the workforce but you must admit they go to extreems at times.

So back to the real issue, the bail out.

Why won't you and your underbellys answer my question?

*GEE can we get away from that word uniform? its PPE.*
See, you even wish to dicate how people 'speak.'
No sorry, its uniforms to me and always will be.

I see its uniforms to rehctub, too- an EMPLOYER
PPE = PAY PAY EMPLOYER

*See it is them, NOT UNIONS who impose these rules.*
Ar, belly when I get a moment, I will post the ' history ' of

PPE =PAY PAY EMPLOYER.

It tells the 'real story' of the unions part to 'introduce it. Actually they state *they couldnt do it without the unions.*

Anyway lets take a look at some of the PAY PAY EMPLOYERS rules shall we-

If an employee doesnt feel like wearing his 'uniform' hat etc if hes in the sun, and resists wearing or using PPE, then the employer must ensure correct fit:) and application :)
and that appropriate training:) and instruction has occurred.( Crikey)

If an employee continues to resist, it would be expected that the employer would take stronger action

(Yeh man rehctub, now wer`e talking buddy, they are going to be fair, so we can get tough! Yipee! )=
such as disciplinary action or *moving the employee to ANOTHER AREA*
ANOTHER AREA Mate, blimey and I needed that job out today or we will loose the order.

ANOTHER AREA. But I dont NEED him in ANOTHER AREA. I am paying him to do what I* need done. Not tell ME what he FEELS like doing!

*The employer as well as the employee could be subject to fines or prosecution for the employee’s failure to wear or use PPE.*

(Oh thats just great) so the guy gets a set on me ,refuses to wear his uniform or just feels like sitting on his arse all day and *I get fined:) Hilarious!

I hate the National party, because of their ongoing involment of cruelty to animals, but Old Joe had the answer when they cut off our power. They left elderly people to die of heat and destroyed peoples business.

He sacked the lot of the bastard boys. GOOD OLD THE OLD CROOK!IMOP

Examinator, enlightens us with pomposity, now addressing me indirectly.

He obviously lacks the balls to come in head on, something which no one would ever accuse Margaret Thatcher or the British spirit of.

Examinator perverts what I said, implying a sense “patriotism” is the negative thing,
What his limited intellect missed is, patriotism and national pride whilst the last refuge of a scoundrel, is not the exclusive preserve of scoundrels.

Examinators short-cut conclusion being that of the lazy and limited intellect, devoid of anything to be proud about.

Anyone with a real education knows the difference.

Enough said.

Re Margaret Thatcher was in direct response to Belly “That support for Thatcher has to be a front her own party dumped her.”

comparison to Australian PM’s, if someone is to judge Margaret Thatcher for being “dumped”,
we can consider contemporary Australian Labor leaders.

Of the throng who have been “dumped” only one lasted as party leader, half the time Margaret Thatcher did. The rest, just a squalid collection of wannabes.

Belly “Col highest regards, seems you are an English man?”

I make no secret of it
I make no claim for preference from it
I will never be ashamed of it
It defines where I am from but not who I am.

I define who I am and always will,

And I will deny any socialist leveler the authority to say what I may be, what I may do, where I may live or how much I might earn.

“May explain the complaining but the endless insults?”

If I observe negatively of the lack of performance of the incumbent government it is not “complaining” it is dismay.

As for insults, you know me Belly, I like to give value and so I give back better value in insults than the insults repeatedly levied at me, not that I am complaining it is simply making the most of my posts.

Like I said recently, I come here to slap a few lefties.

I could go to another site where just about everyone agrees with me but where is the fun in that?.

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming

I assume the people in your organisation know you're waging a vicious anti-union campaign in their name?

The more I read from you, the less likely I am to again support you on animal rights issues. Your agenda here is very mixed, and I'm afraid animal welfare is increasingly looking like an ever smaller part of it.

That's perfectly okay of course and I do realise this is not an animal rights thread. I just hope you're speaking for everyone in your group, that's all, when you post behind a group name like you do.

For the union-bashers:

<< Membership of Queensland trade unions surges

MEMBERSHIP of Queensland trade unions has surged as workers turn to them for protection in the face of looming job losses and uncertainty.

Two of the state's biggest unions, the Liquor Hospitality and Miscellaneous Union and the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union, have reported big increases in membership in recent months.

"More and more workers are looking to our union as the job market becomes increasingly volatile," AMWU state secretary Andrew Dettmer said.

He said membership had increased by 850 in the past three months.

"We're finding a lot of new members are seeking the protection of their current entitlements and pay, as well as the security of knowing they have access to legal representation should they need it," he said. >>

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25062619-3102,00.html

From the tenor of the anti-worker claptrap being peddled here by rehctub and PALE&IF, it looks like those workers who are joining unions of late are being very prudent.

Col the troll: << I come here to slap a few lefties >>

More like spanking his monkey, I reckon.

CJMoron "Col the troll: << I come here to slap a few lefties >>

More like spanking his monkey, I reckon."

well I suppose you would see a bit of that... or more likely... humping someones trouser leg

And just to reinforce and repeat the point on the Bushfire thread which Foxy made

"Of course not all CFA volunteers are arsonists,
and not all patriots are scoundrels.

But the fact remains, some are."

I so agree...

and appreciate your acknowledgement of the slur which Examinator attempted, feebly, to hurl my way when he suggested

"My post albeit with tongue firmly planted in my cheek and laced with mischievous tones was historically factual. At no time did I attack the individual other than to draw an obvious comparison between the zeal of past and present missionaries. "

the conceit of Examinator is clear to see... a side swipe, the coward obviously sensing the risks of a frontal assault, tries to sneak a punch in from the blind side and claim "at not time did I attack the individual poster".

Pompous humbug

I suggest we all watch out for the toilet stall door... Examinator has found his new low, now he limbo dances under them -

and would claim himself to be "innocent" of disturbing the stall occupier, because he did not actually kick open the door.

Bronwyn

Thats is a very political manner for a lay-person to view a forum. Interesting.'
What Rehctub and PALE&IF, have suggested is more co -operation between workers and employers.
People like yourself and Morgan just cant seem to understand we are in for serious times. Many little changes would go a long way to keeping doors open.
It just to show how little you understand that to an employer nothing is more important than keeping good staff. Nothing.

That does not mean I agree with having to give three written warnings in writing if I have a staff member stealing from my till.

Nobody should be forced to give a second chance if you find a staff member stealing from you.
No what we stand up for is a fair go for all!
Tell you what however speaking of organisations interesting stuff coming out re animal welfare . I mean Nicky let the cat out of the bag thank goodness. All those votes in the past gone to ALP- First by prference with the Dems and now the Greens. Another rubber stamp.
Maybe this warrants another thread some time.


I dont support any party - just policy and people.

CJ Morgan wrote: "Yes, I've often wondered why Col Rouge loves to sink the boot into the history of his adopted country's Indigenous people."

I suspect anybody not peddling the standard "Noble Savage" myth about the Aboriginals is guilty of "sinking the boot in" according to you.

"Why do we import these twats?"

Why are you such an abusive, foul-mouthed character?

Lastly, I find it odd that it is somehow considered a great surprise that Col Rouge is English. So what? People of English descent, both Australian-born and English-born immigrants, have constituted the largest single ethnic group in this country since European settlement. In truth, the level of Anglophobia emanating from some people on these forums is downright self-defeating when you consider that modern Australia has founded and shaped by mainly English-descended people.

Had my say on the anti union stuff, no further debate here, but even some in the Australian news paper are saying Turnbull got it wrong.
Julia has fallen on her sword, Hockey takes up the poison challis, Brendan takes his bat and go,s home.
All in all the best thing he ever did for the coalition.
Costello was asked to be treasurer but said the only job he was interested in was the top one, look out Malcolm.
Yes the answer to the thread is yes the Liberals have lost the plot.
Long thread , notice some get one or two posts, sometimes only the authors.
OLO has a way of leveling things out but we do need to control the insults, we truly do,wit sometimes softens the words but only the letter T separates a wit from a twit.

Efranke.
No surprise about Col's origins just contempt for his attitude.

Simply read my post directed to the collective then read his response compare the differences specifically where I attacked or personally insulted him…I didn’t, he did nothing else but. Nor did he offer counter facts.

Likewise this comment is directed to you but he’ll jump in with his tirade of personal abuse and irrelevancy.

CJ could improve his language, although Col could improve his responses a lot.
Manners and respect cost nothing

Belly
What odds would you give me that in the next election it'll be Costello V Rudd? If not that how many seats will Rudd win by if its
Hockey V Rudd? What odds are you giving that Turnbull won't be the challanger at the next election?
Not that I'm a betting person mind you.
Some of the choices of the LNP are well 'interesting' as in the Chinesse "curse may they live in interesting times".
I raise this because whom ever the Lib challanger is he will be depending on Qld seats. and I think the state enmities will arise and bite the libs on their sensory organ.(The one that contacts with Parliamentary leather.) :-)

Bronwyn, I am totally mystified about what particular "cat" I am supposed to have "let out of the bag". I did make it clear that my political preferences are not static, but PALE probably doesn't understand that language. You're right, it's campaign now seem to be against everyone and everyone as the opportunity arises. Animal welfare has well and truly fallen by the wayside, its campaign destroyed by its vilification of everyone and everything else in the movement.

Col, there is nothing wrong with patriotism (I am not Australian born either), but if Margaret Thatcher was that great, and the UK system likewise, may I ask why you are here? Thatcher was a disaster for anyone with a social conscience. She is an example of governments getting elected because there is no effective opposition/alternative. Happens all the time in most western countries.

PALE, I suspect you will find that in most industrial instruments, PROVEN theft is grounds for instant dismissal. Please do your research before making such crass and ill-informed comment.

The Liberal Party seems to have got itself into a tangled mess. So would Rudd be better calling an early election (finding a 'double dissolution trigger') in the middle of a financial crisis, while thousands of people are losing their jobs, and while the Liberals are in disarray?

A lot of the people whose jobs most recently lost are from companies at the "big end of town", those companies who pay their executives top-end salaries, (and can afford to provide proper safety equipment for their employees. As someone pointed out earlier, if they can't do that they shouldn't be in business (but what are "plastic" gloves?).

But are the top-end jobs being lost? No, they are rank and file workers, who will be forced on to Centrelink benefits. That's after they have been forced to live on whatever payout they get for a prescribed period too. No getting away with paying that off the mortgage if they want something to live on.

Social policy under Labor really hasn't really changed that much from the Howard mentality really.

Nicky

Efranke - I haven't used the term "Noble Savage" with respect to Aboriginal people. Rather, you did in another thread in a clumsy attempt at sarcasm.

Now, kindly crawl back under your racist rock.

Further to Efranke's claim that I am "foul-mouthed", my use of the term "twats" in an earlier post was in accordance this common colloquial Australian usage, from the Macquarie Dictionary:

<< a despicable or unpleasant person >>

Yes, it can also refer to female genitalia (among other meanings), but I rather like them.

It's interesting that Efranke somehow missed his/her hateful hero's "despicable and unpleasant" attempt at toilet humour at another forum member's expense just a couple of posts before his/hers.

Talking about British attitudes and
Maggie Thatcher - I think these two jokes
might be enjoyed by all:

A battle weary American soldier boarded a crowded
train in London during the early days of World War II,
only to discover he was unable to find a place to sit.
As he walked the length of the train he noticed a small
white dog curled up on one of the seats.

A large, well dressed woman sat in the seat next to the
dog. The soldier hovered near the seat hoping the woman
would take the hint, but she pointedly ignored him.

"Excuse me, Ma'am," the soldier finally spoke. "Is this
your dog? Would you mind holding it on you lap so that I may sit
down?"

The woman raised her icy gaze to the young soldier and said
in a haughty British accent, "You Americans. You are so rude.
Fluffy is in that seat, and I see no reason why she should
give up her comfort for you."

The exhausted soldier nodded, picked up the small dog leaned
over, opened the window of the moving train and tossed the
dog out. The woman gaped and spluttered in horrific
indignation, and the man sitting across from her lowered his
newspaper.

"You Americans," he said. "You drive on the wrong side of the
road, you eat with the wrong fork... and you just threw the
wrong bitch out the window."

cont'd

By some cosmic force Ronald Regan, Mikhail Gorbachev,
and Margaret Thatcher all died at the same time
and reached the pearly gates together.
Saint Peter could see that these were VIP's so
he directed them immediately to the Almighty.

God beckoned to Ronald Regan to step forward.

"Ronald my son, what have you got to say
for yourself?"

"Well, Sir, I tried to improve the US economy
and I did my best to benefit the nation." replied
Regan.

God then asked Regan to come and sit on his
right side.

Next God beckoned to Gorbachev:

"Mikhail, my son, what have you got to say for yourself?"

"I tried to introduce an openess to the Soviet Union,"
replied Gorbachev.

God asked Gorbachev to also sit down next to Regan.

He then beckoned to Maggie Thatcher,

"Well Margaret, my daughter, what have you got to say
for yourself?"

"Two things," replied Thatcher.

"Firstly I'm not your daughter.
Secondly, get out of my seat!"

Foxy
As we have everybody here why don’t we do more than post jokes and swap menus.
I have noticed you open a lot of posts that seem union orientated. So I thought we could ask everybody both sides of the fence what their thoughts are on the State governments allowing intensive farming of poultry pigs etc.
After all the thread is here for political comments isn’t it.
I don’t see why people with concerns for Animal Welfare should have to run off and hide in a separate thread. So pls everybody what would your ideas be on how we can do something about this. It’s long overdue. I understand you Foxy wrote a letter to our PM about live exports which are great. What do you think we can get labour to do to stop birds being dropped into fires to remove their feathers whilst still alive then dropped into boiling water. This is what is happening right now and they are kept in dreadful conditions pumped with drugs to make your kids ill.
What comments can people make from our lib supporters to ALP backers pls?

Foxy well done! enjoyed it so too I bet nearly every one else.
I have NEVER seen a union thread Foxy started.
And I have rarely seen a thread PALE did not try to introduce its pet issue into.
Strange but the reason why can be found in the sparse replies to threads PALE starts.
Turnbull has a fight on his hands but he should make it, but if Costello rises to lead?
Massive defeat for him, Hockey is not up to the top job, little more than a street sprooker, regards examinator
PS
C J M
ask your self why that poster targeted you? and not the expert in bad manners he/she seemed to defend.

Dear PALE&IF,

As far as this thread is concerned -
I have tried to lighten things up - when
I see that they're getting somewhat emotional and
heated. We need to maintain a sense of humour.

However,on the whole, I feel that the level of discussion
on this thread has been quite high from everybody - with a variety
of opinions being expressed. For which I'm grateful.

As far as animal welfare issues are concerned -
you're most welcome to raise whatever you want.
And it's up to people to react - if they so choose.
I have written to the PM, in the past, and will
continue to do so in the future.

Have a nice day

cont'd

I do want to make another thing quite clear.

I in no way support Col's assertion that examinator
'slurred' him in any way. Examinator did no such
thing! He merely expressed an opinion - to which
he's entitled - and Col who defends his own right to
post as he chooses, and give his own opinion so freely,
should respect others ability to do the
same. That 'toilet' reference, as another poster pointed
out was totally out of line, as were the other personal
'slurs.' That's not reponding 'in kind.' That's a pathetic
excuse that no longer is acceptable to most people on
this, or any other discussion Forum.

You can't take the moral high ground if you don't
practice what you preach. One set of rules for you,
another for any one else. 'Bad Show, Old Chum!'

Just thought that this needed clarifying.

*And I have rarely seen a thread PALE did not try to introduce its pet issue into.*

Belly
We were speaking of the State Governments approval of keeping chickens. Allowing them to be dropped into fires and tossed into boling water alive. State and Federal. Thats not a pet issue. It should be a number one issue for any decent member of public and

*its happening under DPI Labour Government!*

Foxy the tiolet reference I assume was directed to us ?
If so the truth is staff- All staff used to be given injections against such disease. I dont know what happend to that. Your attacking people is is only for those who didnt support your ALP stand-
Belly
Being bullied at work is one such thread I was refering to.
kids being bullied at School is a problem but asking people do their boses bully them is an looking for false complaints.
Adults are free to leave and work elsewhere. Kids on the other hand at school need help.
Another thing. Every single time anybody asks a sensible question we have damage control with silly little posts. I get it that you dont understand the questions.

This is the scary part about some. Really Scary. Ok Foxy you write to the PM about live exports. Good thats more than some. If you really think the bullys at the office are more important than doing more thats your business.

PS
Foxy I thought the reference and personal attack made directed towards the gentlemans mother was a discrace. Funny how you only worry about those posting with the same views as you.
Just because he was supporting the lib team that didnt matter.
The comments were outragous regardless of whom he was supporting ALP or lib.
So much for your justise belly You also said NOTHING

MEMBERSHIP of Queensland trade unions has surged as workers turn to them for protection in the face of looming job losses and uncertainty.

Gee wizz CJ, I hope this didn't come as a surprise to you.

He said membership had increased by 850 in the past three months. WOW! I would never have guessed that.

"We're finding a lot of new members are seeking the protection of their current entitlements and pay,

Little wonder as these pay rates were obtained during the largest supply V demand numbers in recent history. They held many employers at knife point... becasue they could!

So now that demand has dropped they are not willing to give a bit back hey! Typicle one eyed unionist approach. Take what you can in the good times and give nothing back in the bad times! What a joke!

From the tenor of the anti-worker claptrap being peddled here by rehctub and PALE&IF, it looks like those workers who are joining unions of late are being very prudent.

And the unions are laughing all the way to the bank you fools!

They just can't wait till the strikes happen. They will be on tripple pay while the workers will be singing for thier supper as most of them HAVE NOT SAVED ONE CENT OF THIER RECENT WINFALLS!

You lot deserve each other.

Thanks for the entertainment UNDERBELLYS!

Examinator “No surprise about Col's origins just contempt for his attitude.”

I consider whines of “contempt” from a sniveling weasel like you, who tries sneak attacks upon me, whilst claiming the opposite
A mark of success.

Never forget, I never forget - Just ask dickie.

Nicky “but if Margaret Thatcher was that great, and the UK system likewise, may I ask why you are here?”

I chose to come to Australia about 6 years before Margaret Thatcher came to lead the conservative party
My reasons
Regardless of the politics,
the UK, a small collection of resource depleted islands housing 60+ million, has a disadvantage compared to Australia, resources rich and population 20 million
not all things about the UK were to my liking… societal conformity, historic socialist intervention, repressed expectations.
I figured, I owed it to my children to improve their options, as well as my own and they agree with me and thank me.
I had family already settled in Australia.
I considered Australia, relative to many other migrant destinations and it won.
Regarding the politics…

Margaret Thatcher did not destroy the efforts of those who feel compelled to regulate individuals social conscience.
She did many things to force the historic incompetence of nationalised industries to face real life, instead of suck the life blood out of consumers. When she broke the railway monopoly, my travel costs into London dropped but two thirds over night… the railways had been screwing commuters and getting fat through their monopoly.

She allowed sitting tenants to buy the houses they were renting from councils, allowing them to enjoy better security and property owner benefits whilst liquidating the huge sums invested by councils in housing stock.

She introduced comprehensive education when she was education and science minister.

She renegotiated the disastrous terms for UK entry to European Union, from those previously accepted by the her feeble, socialist opponents and those changes still materially benefit the Brown government and the British people today.

Her contribution might be maligned by malcontents but reality

Her strength and leadership changed British “ATTITUDES” and values for the better

Rehctub, are you able to provide evidence that, during the fluctuation in the supply vs demand equation, there was an increase in award rates, or any AWAs that provided for anything much over the awards?

Belly has been quite right in his assertions throughout, PPE is a requirement of legislation, and has more to do with the risk management policies in favour of the business sector than it ever had to do with union demands. The fact that you provide well for your staff does not mean that every employer does, however.

And one cannot be vaccinated for all strains of hepatitis. Is PALE saying that workers in high risk environments should pay for vaccinations such as hepatitis, Q-fever and other diseases specific to certain environments? And I think that the only people who would even suggest that workplace bullying and harassment is not alive and well would be people who have not worked in years (or are the bullies themselves). It is simply that these days, there are ways of addressing it, but not nearly enough. And that has been driven more be legislation than by unions too.

Foxy, it seems that your priorities are out of order, in PALE's view. PALE also apparently believes that issues are mutually exclusive - that if you care about one issue, then you do not care about another.

But there is a reason we have specific threads on specific topics. Intensive farming has nothing to do with the Liberal Party or the financial bailout, and if it is to be discussed then a separate thread should be started, before this one drifts into the PALE agenda (again).

Nicky.

rechtub again you surprise me, are you out to become one of the insult using posters?
Can you justify calling me and others underbelly? is that the best you can do?
The insults being thrown around are not proof of great wit, but a failure to express one self in terms that do not belong in a drunken brawl.
Your self assurance bloke is miss placed, you undervalue others so defeat your self twice.
YOU asked me to get back to the thread.
Yet went straight back to your hobby horse, on the surface you seem to intensely dislike workers, who then buys your snags?, keep your thumb of those scales mate!
Nicky I understand please know I do, but you are wasting your time, I truly have wasted enough, it is best to ignore it really is
regards

*But there is a reason we have specific threads on specific topics. Intensive farming has nothing to do with the Liberal Party or the financial bailout,*

It yes everything to do with it. The money should be spent of plants and infalstructure. Thats whats dragged our country to its knees sending our raw material off before vaule adding.

The funds are 'supposed to put jobs back in Australia. Not for Rudd to bail out the State Hospitals and Schools. Of course! that what hes doing. Even he is ashamed. Hospitals must be fixed I agree.
After that to improve our Animal Welfare and open up value adding plants should be second on the list. That will pay for our schools very quickly.
Both ALP and libs are just as guilty when it comes to this.

When I get a moment I will explain to you why the funds must be spent in the areas in which I raised...
Belly may I remind you and please take note Forrest of our complaint last year that pale had commented on the thread Rudd Trade and China.

Just as Nicky has you made a bit of a fool of yourself by rushing in to complain.

Belly Live Exports Trade and Rudd were more to do with that thread than anything you posted.

rechtub might be able to explain it to you both. .
If not I will pop back later

Foxy belly
Rudd has spent 500 million dollars of public funds to engage advise outside of his own advisors. You wanted to talkabout the budget.
Ok lets take a look at some facts.
The funds borrowed would be much better off as I said before going into inflastructre throughout the states and to create jobs fix up the barbaric conditions conditions our chicken and pork plants operate under.
There is overwheliming evidence forrest available , to illustrate the complex web of ecomic benefits to processing meat in Australia.

With its potential contribition to vaule adding and emloyment far outweighing the contribution of the small areas Rudd has aimed towards.
Also the facts are his last spend up was not succesful as was warned by the libs. Figures show most people saved the money.

Given the fact we have Maylasia destined to be the hub of a 3 Trillion dollar industry which much of that raw material being scauced from Australia - Rudd need to put funds into reopening plant as a matter of urgency.
I make no apoligies for also raising the facts of the other reasons for doing this. To fix the dreadful conditions operating through Governments towards farm Animals as they stand at the moment.

I also said earler somewhere that some of the funds should go to putting in pipes from QLD to flush out the Murry.
BHP have stood staff down together with Rio. Very easy for Mr Rudd to get this stred. Low outlay considering they already have the equiptment.
That way they could put the staff back on they have had to let go.

Now that Mr Rudd would create employment and inflastrure at very little cost within days.

oh and that didnt cost you 500 million dollars of the publics money Mr Rud

Nicky continued
If the chronology on my last post seems off, it is because I wanted to come to Australia in the mid 1970’s but I had then recently married and Whitlam closed the open migration option.. so I ended up waiting in queue and got here in 1983 when the Liberals were in power.

By 1983 Margaret Thatcher was in her stride, she had the Falklands behind her… literally destroying the Argentinean military capability and their squalid attempt at illegal occupation of those islands

and the UK labour opposition party were left, whining like stuck pigs, because they thought the Falklands should be left to the United Nations…

but ultimately the British electorate voted the Conservatives back with a massive majority, so regardless of all the outcries of the leftie swill, Thatcher was right.

Of course, just previous, Whitlam, had behaved like a cowardly creep and an Indonesian sycophant as well as the worst political leader Australia has ever seen, although closely followed by Keating, one of his wet-wipes, neither of whom ever rose above knee high to Margaret Thatcher (she could have crushed them both with a single blow from her handbag).

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/whitlams-east-timor-policies-chilling/2007/05/17/1178995295462.html

but ultimately, Nicky, myself and millions of others, did not decide on where to live based solely on the politics (or I would have probably settled in a Republican USA). We each use a wide range of criteria.

Of course the recurring boot-in from Examinator with such comments as

“If longevity is the measure how long was Stalin at the head of USSR?”

The difference, which our other moron fails to accept, Thatcher was democratically elected, Stalin was not.. but such subtlety is completely missed by our obtuse “Examinator” of all things.

I will return

Someone needs to keep the facts straight and stop the leftie revisionist swill maligning people they are not fit to crawl in the shadow of.

Thanks to everyone for contributing to this
thread.

It will be interesting to see whether the Government's
package will produce at least some of the results that the
Government is hoping to achieve.

The future of the Liberal Party will also be one
that should be interesting to watch.

All The Best to You All,

You are a worry Gerturde, you really are.

Here you are on OLO preaching Gertrudanomics, which seems
to make sense to nobody but you lol, meantime I read on
Farmonline that up to 150'000 cattle have died and are
starving in your state, due to flooding and no food.

Given your constant claims of loving animals, why
arn't you up there helping to feed them?

cont'd

Dennis Pryor summed up politics rather well
in his booklet, "Political Pryorities." :

"The law of obfuscation or 'that wasn't
what I said.' All political statements,
whether by Government or Opposition,
must be worded so that the opposite
meaning can be extracted from them.
The hidden agenda of such a simple
statement as ' we shall abolish poverty'
or 'we shall create jobs' reads as follows"
'We shall abolish poverty or create jobs
sometime in the future, subject to the state
of the economy. If the Senate lets us, if we
haven't got more important things to do,
if it suits the international bankers and if
there is no more important measure to win the
next election.'

Politics - you gotta love it!

You too yabby are wasting your time, no matter how well you express it it will fall on deaf ears.
That China thread!
The carcase has been dragged from thread to thread so many times, and I still do not know what it is about.
Yes a few times, I took offense at posts.
I have no intention of letting it get to me again.
Yes sock puppets spam, such I will report but not a poster, after all some posts are best left for all to see.

Foxy, great quote, and absolutely spot on.

Belly, I think you may be right. Anything we say in favour of the progress unions have made in working conditions will be misinterpreted, which is a pity. But I think that we would be decades from where we are now without them.

Col, if I offended you, I apologise, it was not my intention. My family came to Australia a long time ago, and I remember that the decision being made was Australia, New Zealand, South Africa (yes really!) or Canada. My father was a doctor, and Australia offered the best professional possibilities for him. I was not in the UK during the Thatcher administration, so perhaps my comment was not as well-informed as it could have been, and I try to respect the political views of others in the same way as my political preferences have never been static (not that I could imagine voting Liberal, I'm afraid!)

But back to the "bail-out". Would we be better making it some sort of industry "bail-out", since the jobs picture seems to be getting gloomier by the day? The way this thing seems to have been structured worries me insofar as the most disadvantaged people (those who earn next to nothing now) will apparently get nothing. And many of those who do will use it to retire debt or save it because they are worried about their jobs. It is also of some concern that Asian countries seem to be trying to buy out Australian mineral companies (and Middle Eastern interests farming land to ensure their supply of live animals!)

Who was it who offered the wager about who would be leading the Liberal Party at the next election? I think I'll go for Turnbull (with the shadow of Costello behind him!)

Cheers
Nicky

Yabby,

Don’t come in here with your little pro live export agenda, and tell me you can’t understand our organisation, has long argued, we need to put funds back into infrastructure ,throughout regional areas, to give farmers some alternatives.

I could go back if I could be bothered when ‘you yourself’ have argued the same- (when it suites you)

Oh and do be careful there is a protest going on in another thread that Agriculture doesn’t get a look in under the banner of Government spending.

Never figured you for a ALP supporter though. Guess it doesn’t matter to you anyway as morals never were of any great use to after all.

You make me appreciate rehctub, even more.

I say Butcher for PM:

Gertrude, my point was actually about 150'000 cows dying in your
state right now, I thought that you actually might care about them
and help do something.

Sorry, it seems that I was wrong.

Rehctub are you able to provide evidence that, during the fluctuation in the supply vs demand,

Well no I can't at this point however I will try to do some reserch if time permits.

However, everyone knows that the wages in recent times for tradies and labourers, when the mining boom was in full swing, saw a huge increase. They either axcept this or they choose to turn a blind eye.

Tradies being paid in excess of $100K p/a. Remember, many of these faced financial ruin back in the late 90's.

Labourers being paid $30 per hour in many cases. Brickies on $800 a day+ All these increases were as a result of more job places than workers so the employers has little choice but to pay the rate or go without. Why else do you think a house went from $600/m2 to over $1100/M2 in the space of 8 years?

Now even belly admitted previously that the higher wages were as a result of supply and demand.

So now the demand has dropped whay can't the pay rates drop as well, or is it a one way street.

Employers can only pay so much in wages so either they take the pay cut when times are tough or they loose thier jobs. That's it!

And PALE, you are spot on with the value adding argument.

I will create a post on this as it is a touchy subject for me.

I would have zero unemployment if I had my way. Why can't we value add and pay the people on benifits to do the work.

What is wrong with working for thier hand outs at award rates. Esspecially if we can provide additional jobs through value adding projects. Meat processing, steel manufacturing and fabricating, paper manufacturing, just to name a few.

Job creation is the key, not spending/wasting money hand outs!

And I ask again and again, WHO IS GOING TO PAY IT BACK? Anyone willing to offer an answer? The tax positive tax payers can't pay any more, we already pick up the slack AND PAY THE BILLS!

Yabby

We are not the bank of England Yabby.
We just do what we can.
You should know what we are doing
I posted on the thread under news.
Your very welcome to send a donation of Hay.

Trucks are on their way
arranged by private people
because neither ALP State or
Federal Government would help.

Its absolutlty awful:

They left them for weeks on end.
Agreed yesterday to arrange to
send some hay but that was 'only' after
the media got involved.

What a pity the Animals cant vote.

Speaking of Hay Yabby ,I object in
the srongest possible terms at
being forced to hand over truck
loads of Hay goods to FF.

We will deliver our own
donations door to door.
I dont think its approaite
for FF to say all the hay is going
to A Shed and we will deliver from there!

People prefer to ensure the food
gets to the Animals asap.
Of course theres always the
good old DPI to step in and then say-
Take it back it might have ants whatever
While animals starve.

Anyway I suppose I cant blame
you for that. We all know there
is no Hay In Melbourne due to droubt.
Well most of us I should say.

FYI There was a news flash a moment ago.
John Howard has spoken out for the first
time and given his thoughts on Rudds Bail out.

I think we need a woman next time if we
cant have -

rehctub,for PM.

Rehctub, I agree that in "boom" times, such as the recent history of mining, wages possibly did go through the roof - but that had nothing to do with unions or awards. That WAS a function of supply and demand. Where the situation gets interesting is that unemployment will rise now, but there remain skills shortages in the economy.

I think that whatever this "bail-out" offers, it should include spending to address these skills shortages. When Howard came to power, all labour market (training) programs were pretty much axed - Jobtrain, Special Intervention and other training, along with Skillshares. And they did get people into jobs. The other thing that worked was wage subsidies. In an ideal world, everyone who can work probably should, but how do many get jobs with no skills and no way of getting them? Even TAFE courses are expensive. Recent statements about supporting apprentices threatened with unemployment have been encouraging.

The skills/jobs equation has to be addressed.

As for who will pay the money back - are surpluses not created as "buffers" for hard times? It may take time - probably a long time - to build back up again, but I think it will resolve itself.

Yabby, in a historic moment, I agree with you. I've been wondering why PALE hasn't had a word to say about the starving cattle in Queensland too. Plenty about Victoria; too far away from Queensland to have to do anything serious about. I couldn't actually see where you expressed an ALP preference either.

Nicky

Ok Gertrude, I will sum up the position as I see it thus far.
You are free to show where I am wrong, for I can always
be wrong.

We have 150'000 cattle dying and starving in Queensland,
you think the situation is terrible, but there is not
much that you can do about it, you don't have the money.

We know of no attempt by Gertrude to pack her little
kit bag and head north, to try and help with the rescue
and feeding operation of these poor creatures.

Besides, that would mean leaving your little comfort
zone of the Gold Coast and really get her hands dirty,
helping those animals.

So your time seemingly is better spent arguing on OLO
that rehctub should be PM.

What have I missed?

Are we going to overlook that America is spending 7% of its gross national income on a bail out?
While we spend 2%.
As the economy gets back on its feet, no matter how bad it gets it will get back on its feet.
The tax base with increase, we however, like the rest of the world will have a bill to pay.
Some of this bail out will return to the government via tax's
Tell me rechtub, what would be the result of Australia not following the western world? not having a bail out?
Yes wages did just 12 months ago rise with supply and demand.
Rechtub are you prepared to debate why?
Can you understand the death of training under the man PALE thinks you should replace, John Howard, saw firms fight to pay high wages.
To poach other firms workers with head hunting wage offers.
You do, surely understand under workchoices no boss entered an agreement he/she did not want too?
The power lay with bosses not unions, some of our biggest came to the table with greenfield agreements already written, wages bonuses the lot, before consulting unions.
Rechtub those agreements have not expired would you have workers give them up?
The contracts begun are not finished, would you have the boss cut his profits reduce the costs ? fat chance.
I too want answers but can you tell me what would be the result of no bail out?
Another poster says we are wasting cash on schools and hospitals! do you agree with that Mr Prime Minister in waiting?

Nicky “Col, if I offended you, I apologise, it was not my intention.”

No offence taken Nicky…. I never have a problem addressing questions directed at my motives…. It helps me qualify them for my own purposes anyway :- )

The last line of my last post was directed exclusively he who would describe the Falklands war as the “pursuit of National Pride” (words to that effect) or consider the manifest evil of Stalin an appropriate comparison to any democratically elected leader (regardless of politics) and to use his post to try to take a side swipe at me.

I recognize your and my politics are in opposition that is fine. The laws which defend your right to hold your own view are the laws rules which defend my right to hold my own view… and I respect and defend those laws above all things, because those were the things which despots, the likes of Stalin, remove first.

“Would we be better making it some sort of industry "bail-out", since the jobs picture seems to be getting gloomier by the day?”

My view is the notion that government can “pick winners” is long past being proved a fallacy.
Who pays for bail-outs?
Tax payers

If the government withdrew from propping up the ordained “winners” and left the money with tax payers, the taxpayers will do a far better job of deciding which businesses are worth saving and which are past their use-by date.

One of both Margaret Thatcher’s and Ronald Reagan’s respective initiatives was to stop propping up the hulks and leave the process to “the Market”… and before anyone complains “the market got us to where we are today” (in a financial crisis)

WRONG inappropriate government meddling, attempts to distort the processes of “the Market” and unapplied / misapplied regulations and regulators (SEC in USA) is what got us to where we are today.

continued

I note the US Republicans and the Australian Liberals have lodged their opposition to much of the “Bail-out” measures partly because they feel “the Market” is a better “picker of winners” than government has ever been.

I note whilst the frauds of Enron and WorldComm cost billions, they did not bring the house down and the Sarbanes-Oxley Act was instigated and signed off by George W Bush to rectify many of the issues which Enron particularly highlighted.

I note the legislation which followed the great Depression has not been repealed but laws like Jimmy Carters “Community Reinvestment Act” and the “Jingle-Mail” laws which allow people to walk away from their responsibilities without right of the lender to recovery (extreme “Caveat Emptor” with the Bank being the “buyers of debt”) attempted to make an end-run around those laws and the present “Financial Crisis” can be linked directly to those types of laws, which placed undue and unfair burdens of acceptance upon bankers to lend to everyone, regardless of the bankers suspicions.

Government Makes laws. Successive Governments have failed by making bad laws.

I blame the left of politics for meddling too much and making too many bad laws

I blame the right of politics for not having a more determined approach to getting bad laws revised or repealed.

This GFC problem was initiated by lending to bad risks.

LEave bankers to assess risks, restore their confidence in the quality of their debt and the rest takes care of itself

bail-out packages misdirected to alleviate the results of loss-of-confidence do not solve the problem, they mask it and entrench it deeper.

Rehctub, I agree that in "boom" times, such as the recent history of mining, wages possibly did go through the roof - but that had nothing to do with unions or awards.

Yes, very good point. But why now then are the unions getting involved in an attempt to protect these inflated wages etc?

Even TAFE courses are expensive
Tafes are a waste of time in many cases. The teacher are out dated tradespeople and often one who failed in main stream.

All students should be sent to banks, law firms, accounting firms and trade industries for their training and their wages should be heavily subsidised. At least then the training would be up to date.

We waste millions on tafe colleges and then fight for gov funding only to see the college fail in years to come leaving yet another white elephant.

are surpluses not created as "buffers" for hard times
Unfortunately we don't have a telstra left to sell. After all, that was what was required last time the coalision took office. By the way I was oppossed to that sale and still am!

continued

continued
Belly you wrote like the rest of the world will have a bill to pay.
We have approx 20 million people. Approx 7 million work. 3 million don't pay posative tax, so it's up to the 4 million left to pay this back. Is that fair?

not having a bail out?
I'm not oppossed to a bail out, i'm oppossed to a HAND OUT!

Yes wages did just 12 months ago rise with supply and demand.
So why can't they fall again as demand dropps off?

Can you understand the death of training under the man PALE thinks you should replace, John Howard,

If you're refferring to me, I have two apprentices, just gone 2nd year and are almost butchers. Now if that's not great raining, what is?

Rechtub those agreements have not expired would you have workers give them up?
Most certainly, if that is the law then yes they should be withdrawn.

I too want answers but can you tell me what would be the result of no bail out?
Spend it wisely,create jobs, don't hand it out to the ones who wasted the first lot.

Another poster says we are wasting cash on schools and hospitals!
Thanks for the praise. No I don't agree. But do you really think we can continue to provide free everything. Remember, us bill payers are a dwindling mob. We pay more into medicare than the others yet we have to pay to see a doctor. Do you think that is fair?

I am out of time but would love to debate this issue further.
Cheers

What would our country look like if we did not share the costs of education, health, so much more.
I rechtub gladly pay to see my doctor, and have no problems paying my tax.
I could never charge those who got the bail out money first round with wasting it.
How can you say that? on what evidence?
How much went into your butcher shop?
How much found its way via tax back to the government?

*Another poster says we are wasting cash on schools and hospitals!

Dear Prime Minister'in Waiting

Your leaned Gertrudanomics, MS Speaker Policy:- did not oppose ALP State hospitals “ bailed outs.”
Said - State ALP Governments rightfully under attack bailed
ALP State`s miserabe failers first.
(There’s a difference(.

"Dont need another thread",

Value adding: -nothing effects the ‘budget ‘more than employment – value adding. Go for it! (Belly might even learn how he can pick up a quid via new members ( after conditions)

: Your Education training policy: -
Is= cost effective, efficient, - showing real leadership as expected.

*We have approx 20 million people. Approx 7 million work. 3 million don't pay positive tax, so it's up to the 4 million left to pay this back. Is that fair?*

Foxy Belly Pls respond- Well is it?

*bail-out packages misdirected to alleviate the results of loss-of-confidence do not solve the problem, they mask it and entrench it deeper.*
*“Would we be better making it some sort of industry "bail-out", since the jobs picture seems to be getting gloomier by the day?”*

Sounds like our next Deputy PM: but watch your back PM: in waiting, he`s leadership material.

*Is PALE saying that workers in high risk environments should pay for vaccinations* such as hepatitis, Q-fever and other diseases specific to certain environments?
PALE is saying workers 'used to be Vaccinated on jobs= so unions double up take blood give injections.

*Intensive farming has nothing to do with the Liberal Party or the financial bailout,*

WRONG= Needs infrastructure create jobs especially “ VALUE ADDING”
Its everything to do with it.!

*Yabby, in a historic moment, I agree with you. I've been wondering why PALE hasn't had a word to say about the starving cattle in Queensland too.*

Ar, Nicky but where`s Australias Federation Peak Umbrella=
Animals Australia is the only national animal protection organisation that actively exposes animal abuse and promotes a cruelty-free lifestyle. Representing some 40 member societies and thousands of individual supporters, we are also Australia's largest and most dynamic national animal protection organisation.

"Nothing" about fire, floods.

?

?

*Ok Gertrude, I will sum up...
Gold Coast and really get her hands dirty,
Helping those animals.
What have I missed?*

You missed that is the only place Gertrude is happy, for starters.
You missed we have helped see threads + privately

*So your time seemingly is better spent arguing on OLO
That rehctub should be PM.*

Like you, with your shares, in Westpac Yabby dearest, - I too believe its wise, to invest in the future :) with my PM in waiting, Australia will exceed ‘morally’ +financially.

But just a tick, and Gertrude, will look for a spare witch’s broom. This one`s worn out from turning into a web master.
There you go Nicky =
http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/campaigns/liveexporttrade/
The other site you ‘complained about is being rebuilt - hope that satisfactory.

Attention: Yabby was right calling for volunteers:
- While nobody could get through earlier .QLD Floods “have been overlooked.
After being put through, from the Premiers office to the department –we were then informed the SES was delivering Hay :)

Wish those ALP guys would come up with some new lines.-
From there they put us through to “The ‘Brisbane’ City Council!” ‘Hopeless’.
Contacted Premier`s Media R went out this afternoon. Some Hay going- can’t say how much until Monday from Government.
Pale`s raised from Rockhampton 5 Ton of Sugar Drip Transport to deliver. We require coordination person’s volunteers to launch joint effort working with QLD ALP. Sounds like the perfect job for you Nicky and Co.
Working with the peak body I am sure you girls will be fine. Just remember I offered those flippers cheap and mud is great for the complexion. Leave the high heels behind and don’t forget the airoguard and to have a good few weeks!
Unfortunately I am not joking so hows about you get those thousands of your mates, members and lend a hand just for once.?

Oh and don’t forget to thank Yabby for the information.

I heard a rumour nothings going liveexports for ages.

Something- diseases and informing buyers.

Dont forget- Watch out for those mossies- their killers:)

*You missed that is the only place Gertrude is happy, for starters.*

Fair enough Gertrude, sounds like those tens of thousands of cattle
will have to starve and die without your help, as the Gold Coast is
where you want to be.

So really, what it comes down to, you see yourself as an armchair
critic. Make a few noises here and there, post on a few threads
on OLO, tell the Govt what it should be doing etc.

In other words, you want to be seen to be doing all sorts of things,
but when the crunch comes and tens of thousands of cattle are
starving in Queensland, you have no plans to do anything but
remain an armchair critic.

Fair enough, if that is your choice, then so be it.

Yabby, another historic moment. I can't see anywhere where you asked what other organisations (in other states) were doing, but beyond that, this latest claptrap from PALE is largely incomprehensible, other than that they (?) won't be leaving the Gold Coast any time soon to help the cattle. Much easier to criticise everyone else.

Rehctub, I agree with you on several fronts - I think you are absolutely right about jobs. In the days when I taught at TAFE (although I wasn't teaching in the "trades"), I found that some disciplines were better than others. But TAFEs can only teach from the National Training Packages, and they are only updated something like every five years.

Back when Labour Market Programs existed, wage subsidy and "broker" programs were excellent because they provided full on the job training, but they were abolished when Howard came to power.

Also, the supply and demand equation has a further component - prices. The cost of living has grown exponentially (or partially so) with wages. And Belly is right too; employers did start the "bidding wars" for labour. Now the tables are turning, the unions cannot be blamed for that, and nor can awards, which have basically only risen in keeping with the CPI.

I guess everyone here is seeking to get this right. This open discussion is good value.

Nicky

What a load Of Garbage Nicky. 'Cop out.' We have just posted we are to help establish a rescue unit working with the Government for floods after 'already' doing our bit for fires. Which we are still doing. How much yabby do you think 3 office staff could do pluss whos going to contiune to organise the donations and pick up we are ALREADY DOING!answer phones and run the office.
Where`s the help from your so called peak body Nicky.? Tell us what Animals Australia are doing.? Animal Liberation? YOU?

Come on Nicky you sit on OLO for years and rubbish RSPCA and PALE.
Here`s is RSPCA QLDs efforts for the fire- where Animals Australia. After all its in their own state!

http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/Fire_and_Flood_Assistance.htm

Yabby We have an office to run for starters and I personally have hosres that must be cared for. Also obligations with people arriving from ME and other family obligations looking after my sisters farm stay animals for two weeks on top of everything else!

This requires 'many' to lift hay and at least six coordinators.

Why dont you get off Your Bum! and help. Oh Cant leave your farm. Well I have two farms and a padock with twenty rescue Animals 17 of those are horses to look after pluss what I do here.

I also tipped in 5 grand for Hay which was the bottom of our petty cash tin.

Actually it was ALL we had

Go to hell.

Now I am going to ask officially for AA and Al to help. They claim they have thousands of members ! We dont and the ones we have work.

Well we, yes me too, have done it again, the thread wanders from subject to subject.
Not surprising it gets to be an animal welfare thread.
If it did not however, judging on the posts in such threads we may never get to talk about that subject.
While we paddle in threads such as Sea Kittens, talking unions politics and just about anything, others are left to talk in other threads, so it serves a purpose.
At a time federal politics is so very interesting we ask have the Liberals lost the plot, well my view is yes on so many fronts.
But they are not alone, just read the thread, an interesting worth while thing to do.
In my youth we trucked lawn clippings and hay from inner Sydney to the bush during the 60,s drought.
A leader in my union took Christmas gifts to the bush just a few years ago,
Right now the good will is there but frankly confusion exists, some publicity makes me[ with some understanding] question who is best to help out?
My donation will not go to any existing animal welfare group.

Belly
If you want to make sure your doing something for the Animals, it’s really important, not to just send a donation, to the next Animal Welfare Organisation. Most of them don’t do any hands of work and just leave it to RSPCA

If you wish to help horses, cattle, in the fire you could send your donation to project hope-
http://www.phhwv.org.au/
Every Cent will go into feed and straight out to the animals.

If you wish to assist animals in QLD floods send it direct to a drop off points which will be produce stores in Cairns until the SES or Government nominate another area.
I will post some contacts or drop offs on Monday after speaking with Government.
We need offers of Transport, if you know any Tuck companies. Most of all someone to Co ordinate. SES will probably be best but people are required to volunteer.
In the future, it would be good to see, all Animal Groups, get themselves organised and partipate in times like this when animals most need their help.

Project hope has been around 35 years and it’s their experience together with utter dedication that makes the difference.

Why can’t animal Welfare Groups participate in each state. Working with ALP State Governments. We need to lobby for that. Now that would be a very worth while hobby horse for you. You said in the past you wanted to do something to help animals.

Full credit this time to the Red Cross working with RSPCA btw who have been also giving out Hay and Dog food!-
Belly you need not fear pale wants to turn this into a animal thread. I just followed in line to responding to my attackers.

What I would like you to consider speaking of the "budget" is why Animal Welfare should group Receive Tax Relief if they are not prepared to actually do some emergency relief.

TO BE CONTIUNED

*Yabby We have an office to run for starters and I personally have hosres that must be cared for*

Fair enough Gertrude, just so that we understand your priorities.

You are clearly busy, your group seemingly has no money
or human resources to help the starving and dying cattle.

So its office chores, feeding horses and mudslinging
at the Govt on OLO, that are your priorities it seems.

Personally I am just kind of blown away by all this.

Here we have Australian cattle dying by their tens of
thousands in our backyard and people shrug their shoulders
and say they are busy with other things.

Next thing we are all high and pompous, trying to tell
the ME how they should handle their livestock. Others
might not see the hypocracy, but I certainly do.

Next time somebody goes on about the live trade, I will
remind you of what is happening in your own backyards.

Yabby
We have given praise to the office who has ‘finally agreed to help the Animals. You cant blame us for being some what annoyed by being put in contact with the "Brisbane City council" to organise Cairns 'come on.!

After saying that the Lady in ‘that particular office’ once we finally got through and their Minister has acted. They have been very responsible by admitting they would welcome some help and we intend to give it to them.
I gave you a ‘very ‘honest appraisal of my person commitments and we are required anyway to respond to calls and arrange drop off points.
You demanded to know why I* could not personally attend QLD floods. I thought you would understand as our office was organising it that being here was more important than one person going.
We are doing apart from RSPCA and a few other private organisations far more than our friend Nicky for example. The same applies for live exports Yabby. We at least try to work to reopen abattoirs. Tell me honestly what you have ever seen on this forum in regard to that- Just abuse and calling us Animal killers!

• Personally I am just kind of blown away by all this*
• So am I Yabby and that’s a very good question where are they
•
• Where is AA AL AAQ?
• Tell you what blows me away that you stick it into me when we are as far as I can see the only ones apart from RSPCA helping as much as we can.

• So why don’t you ask Nicky what she’s doing and her friends to assist instead of just picking on Me.! At least we are doing something- A lot actually and I’m Tired and upset you would be so very unkind to especially Rhonda and Antje who have worked tirelessly even if you dislike me!
• To the point once this is over I`m out of it. Never met people like this in my life.
They say they care about Animals Huh!

Yabby, your question was about starving cattle, so I am mystified about why PALE would provide a horse protection organisation's link. But who knows what's in the water or whatever they drink up there? And add to the listed activities threatening half the country with baseless legal action (when in fact the reverse is a bit more like it) and you've just about got the priorities right.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2479&page=41

PALE, I have absolutely no idea what other orgabnisations are doing. How often do I have to tell you that I do not belong to any?

Nicky

Somehow, I think it is not the liberals who have "lost the plot" but this thread certainly has

Belly
What would our country look like if we did not share the costs of education, health, so much more.
SHARE is the key word!

How can you say that? on what evidence?
15 million just on QLD pokies alone. Fact!

How much went into your butcher shop?
About a 10-15% increase for three weeks. But I have already told you that.

How much found its way via tax back to the government?
Heaps, though mainly through tabacco, grog and gambling taxes unfortunately.

Nicky
Perhaps there is a gap between 'award wages' and what is being paid in many cases. If so, I have no problem with anyone fighting for or protecting the 'award' wage. But surely $800 per day for a brickie is not an award wage! I come to this conclusion because you mentioned that awards have risen by CPI.

Now back to the thread.
Everyone should put thier personal feelings aside when debating as they cloud thier views somewhat.

If you are a unionist you should still have an open mind. After all, many unionists are simply that because they are either 'poms' or thier father was a unionist. ALL Austrailains should vote with an open mind and vote for the party that has the best policies.

As for cattle drowning, same applies here. One must be able to spet outside of their animal walfare circle and see what is happening for what it is.

There is no difference between drowning cattle and a failed crop. Both are grown for food and both failed due to mother nature. If the demand for meat was not there these cattle would not exist. The fact that they are living animals is a seperate issue.

Col, you are dead right mate, we have again lost the plot.

Finnaly, I think the libs have lost the plot. No more so than the labor days of Beasley, Crean and crew.

*So why don’t you ask Nicky what she’s doing and her friends to assist instead of just picking on Me.! *

Gertrude, I have asked you for very good reasons. You are
the only one on OLO, claiming to run an animal welfare organisation
in Queensland. Queensland is where cattle are starving and dying.

Nobody has berated others more on OLO when it comes to animal
welfare, then you have. Nobody has hijacked more threads and
turned them into animal welfare threads, then you have.

Nobody has claimed more love for animals on OLO then you have.

According to you, Govts, businesses, churches etc have it all
wrong.

So it is fair to say that your criticism of others, when it
comes to animal welfare, has been quite extreme.

Fair enough, but people in glass houses should not throw stones.

So I asked you a very fair question. Given that you are an
animal welfare organisation, what about those tens of thousands
of dying cows, right there under your nose in Queensland?

Don't you ever preach to me about live exports, whilst this sort
of disaster is going on, right there in your backyard.

rechtub, I still have some understanding of your views I disagree with them strongly.
Yes some welfare, not just the handouts, is miss spent wasted,we should not support ANYONE who just will not work.
Not interested in Col Rouge here and in my newest thread he uses insults to make up for his inability to use the English language to put me down, even called me troll?
But rest easy, my every comment, every single one is how I think, no regimentation I say it like it is.
My party had idiots like Simon Crean[gee his dad was far better] Latham, still not sure about our minister for defense, he has anti union thoughts.
But mate we, my party are in power to stay, worst crisis in this country's history, it is you know?
And the polls say it all, we are the party trusted to lead not yours.
It heartens me, the pain, the refusal to understand ,conservatives lost the last election, and the next.
Right now they have lost the plot.
Even more I am PUMPED that you and the unhappy Col think those of us who think different than you should blindly follow, ROFL!you two.

Yabby
'*You ' highjacked this thread. Not I . We 'were' posting on topic re the budget.

I might add, as soon as CJ, and our Prime Minister in waiting, + pale put forth arguments, why we should re think where the funds went, we saw two attempts to bring the thread to and end.

CJ then rightfully responded and pointed out he wasn`t finished.

We also requested people stop diverting the thread and answer questions.

Then *You crashed the thread accusing us of neglecting Animals. So you forced us to respond. Floods have nothing to do with live Exports Yabby.Our position is 'clear' we are only working in conjunction with RSPCA QLD on live exports.

I was* -'in response,'to you pointing out that according to Nicky, her friends at Animals Australia are the Peak Federal Umbrella for Animal Welfare and Activism QLD are also in QLD so why didnt you ask the same of Nicky! She cant answer that question now or ever.

As well your vetted interests are noted Yabby. Anything rather than face up to the fact that vaule adding is what we need put back into Australia.
A part of the funds most certainly should be going into our regional areas to put this country back on its feet. Had you not interupted the thread we were about to address that.

We have one chance to try to return a budget as the world market crashes. I have explained to you many times that people buy your product to create employment and inflastructure for 'their countries.'

This comes at an enoumous costs to the tax payer who have been proping up this cruel trade for years.
Australia can no longer afford to loose those value adding oportunitys to overseas simply because a small group with vetted interests reep huge amounts for themself via trading through the suffering of millions of animals.

Of course The Rudd Government should put some of that money into inflastructure to value add instead of sending off raw materials and jobs that go with it.

Nice try

Rehctub, I do take your point/s, and I also take Belly's. I support the union movement in principle, but I think it's important to recognise the distinction between the functions of awards, the supply/demand equation, and the influence of the CPI. Awards and supply and demand only have a distant relationship. If you were a brickie, and someone offered you $800 a week, would you say "no, I'll take $500"? Or "no, I only want what the award provides for". I don't think so.

Where I think the "wheels will fall off" in the supply/demand context is when unemployment rises, as it is now. Those high wages will disappear as more workers look for jobs. But I think it's good that awards are there for them, because many unskilled and young workers are very open to exploitation by some unscrupulous employers. I am not for a minute suggesting that you are one of those. There needs to be a safety net of some sort in place, and that is the function of awards (Belly, is that right?)

As for the animal welfare side-issue here, it would be better going to a thread of its own. I have already answered PALE's plaintive howl to the extent that I intend to. Nor do I think that this thread was the place for PALE to bring its slaughterhouse agenda or its self-promotion to. The meat industry will be only one of many affected by this global downturn. If there is to be a "rescue package", matters to do with manufacturing in Australia across all industries should be a part of it. We are being sold out to foreign interests.

Nicky

Belly

Just remember, once our PM hands out this lattest round of spending money, much of it to loosers (with a track record) then I guess it will be up to the conservitives to come in again and fix up the mess.

Also, cast your mind to the last time labor was in, I know it's hard to think back that long, but didn't they put the breaks on the workforce with thier famous 'unfair dismissal policy'. Smasll business just stopped employing people.

Here we go again with the unions about to be given more powers again so there goes employment growth in small business hey. If only you lot could see around the corner.

The last thing anyone should be doing is messing with Ir laws now.

Remember, like it or not, small business is the counties largest employer, mess with them and you will end up with egg on your face.

Only problem is, what do we have left to sell after they plumit us into the red again. We have no more testra's and the 58%ers will be fewer and farer between after your party ruins our employment.

You lot should be making it easier for business to employ people, not impossing more stress because you want to save the unrealistic wages your members have obtained of late.

It looks like business will be investing in automated equipment again as oppossed to unionised staff. At least the loan is a deduction, as oppossed to employing unionised staff that may well become another unfair dismisal saga.

Job creation and less red tape for emplyers is the key.

They just make it all to hard mate.

Gertrude, you have hijacked countless threads on OLO, this case
was simply too much for me, to not comment. Don't you ever talk
to me about the live trade again. Tens of thousands of cattle dying
in your state and you sit on your arse. End of story.

Belly, I agree with you that the union issue is not black and white.
Yes, there are unions where power has gone to the heads of the
organisers and its been badly misused. OTOH there are good reasons
why unions formed in Australia. If we read the history of the wharves,
British shipowners screwed workers blind and did not give a hoot.

So our union system has been based on them against us, which is
really the problem. In central Europe it has always been the case
of everyone cooperating, for mutual benefit. To me that makes far
more sense, as its more about a win-win situation.

For years I delivered air freight to Qantas Cargo. There was this
real standoff between workers and managers, them and us. White collar
would hardly talk to blue collar. I treated the fellas, who were
great guys by the way, as my equal and we became good friends.
They even got my cargo through a strike. I realised how much all
this is all about people skills and attitude. If the white collar
brigade had shared a beer or two with the blue collar and treated them
as equals, most problems would have never occured in the first place.

Please note pale is not going off post Yabby Is! However we shall respond:

After a Conversation with RSPCAQLD CEO this morning,
We are now able to inform those who care, about the
Animals in the QLD floods. RSPCA QLD has been busy
Organising much needed emergency assistance for those
Animals as well as putting in an enormous effort to
The Victorian Fires.

With some roads accessible ‘at last' now is the time to donate or offer your time to assist with QLD Floods.

A ‘big thanks’ to those who have already contacted our office in the last few days with offers of Hay and Produce.

We will keep you updated as to drop off points.

Again Thank You All

They are still in need of support,
So if you have not yet donated
To RSPCA QLD flood relief -I am sure
Their dedicated staff would

Love to hear from you.

http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/

Yabby You’re terrified of debating the meat industry.

If we are to have a rescue package then none is more important than our meat industry. Kevin Rudd should put some funds into infalstructure for the Australian meat processing sector. It’s important to consider with it the impact on other industries. Alongside the meat processing works themselves, there are enormous numbers of business reliant on a supply of co products from Australian based abattoirs, for the creation of their own processed product.
These business range from butchers and small goods producers, pet food products, manufacturers of industrial products and those companies that produce vetinary and pharmaceutical products, to mention just a few given space.

There however has been a distortion. There has been continued depression profitability among Australian meat processors and by product manufactures.
\ Apart of the rescue package should go to establish value adding plants instead of exporting our raw materials and the jobs that go with it.

If anything desrves a rescue package its the meat industry of Australia instead of exporting our jobs raw material that every single tax payer is paying to keep it going.

*Yabby You’re terrified of debating the meat industry.*

Rubbish. I simply don't think that you have the braincells
to think rationally, so you don't even understand the implications
of what you are suggesting.

Lets say that the Govt decided that Rehctub needed competition,
so they used Govt funds to set up a butcher shop next door
to him, using taxpayer funds. What do you think that Rehctub
would say?

For after all, they could pay more for their meat and sell it
cheaper, the taxpayer would foot the bill for the difference.

What you are suggesting is that Govt funds be used to compete
with Fletcher and other processors. What do you think they
are going to say about that?

Frankly I think that you have never even thought about these
things, for your understanding of economics is more akin
to Pauline Hanson or similar.

You might mean well and care about animals, but as we have
seen, when the crunch comes and tens of thousands of cattle
are dying in Queensland, your organisation simply does not
matter and you are powerless to do anything, except post
on a few threads on OLO and pretend that you do.

Ok, it keeps you occupied and off the streets, but that is
about it, IMHO.

Yabby

"In this case it was simply too much for me. Gertrude you sit ….."

It is firstly and solely the responsibility of the breeders of these animals and the government to have emergency and rescue plans for floods not Gertrude

Each property should have at least one large area with higher ground like a huge pile of dirt levelled out so that air drops can be done.

PM Kevin Rudd must be aware that people are going to be looking at every cent he has spent of our money as times get harder.
Too much money is being paid by every single family to support the cruel industry.

If ever anything had affected a country it is this. Australia can be the meat industry of the world if Kevin Rudd only sees we need those jobs here now.

It is silly he uses the rescue package to create jobs in one particular sector while we are paying to ship our other jobs off shore.


Of course PM Kevin Rudd should put a part of the rescue package into our meat industry or at least a fraction of it. It’s long overdue. Not to do so is criminal

Antje Struthmann

Foxy, not for the first time in this thread I am sorry, like most I got of subject.
We may sometimes not be wrong in doing so, still can not understand why animal welfare gets a start in a politics thread.
But it always does.
I need to answer a question, climb out on another limb, not related to the thread, our tree has many branches.
Unions awards wages now yesterday and tomorrow.
Awards rechtub set wages forever, once cost of living raises increased that rate, not to my understanding in future.
We are about to re write ALL awards, have less of them, covering people.
Safety net, things you can not trade away will be in every award.
EBA a way employers and employees can, do sit down and talk wages and conditions for the period ahead, 1 2 or 3 years, maybe more.
Increased productivity and key performance indicators are first for an employer, cost cutting the result.
Unions no longer have the power, even if they wanted to, to impose EBAs on the boss.
I KNOW unions, the good ones will not trade jobs for wage increases~
Hawk/Keiting had the accord[it cost workers too much] workers are Australians too, good unions are not all unions, mine will preserve jobs
EBA yes some in place for 12 more months, it is a two way street rechtub, your pal Howard saw AWA.s 5 year agreements signed by the already lowest paid ,giving up overtime, even rechtub sick pay!
much more. would you say we should rip up their agreements before they expire?
You constantly talk down to under privileged people, how can you know every poor person is a bludger?
Can you get your head around the fact it was not them but the very rich who put the world in this bottomless crisis?

Yabby

You are trying to steer the discussion away, from the meat industry. We have every right to explain why at least, ‘some of the rescue funds, from Kevin Rudd should include agriculture. This is something also structured to give the aboriginal people their independence.
So its gloves off is it Yabby. Good. I prefer to debate on merit not personal insults.

You certainly have clearly demonstrated why the opinions of vested interest are not to be trusted.

It’s your style, (or lack of, more like it.) Seems Dickey was correct not give you the benefit of the doubt. There are plenty of other farmers / butchers interested to upgrade domestic plants to export standards. To recieve assistance for the first time in their lives by public funded departments. Those public funds were always supposed to assist them such as Austrade and MLA.
To be able to engage in discussions for accreditation through AQIS.


I can assure you the free ride for exporting our jobs while we the pubic pay for it is getting closer to coming to an end. MS also has pointed that out. The economy is in trouble and not even Kevin Rudd will be able to justify it any longer.
RSPCA have promised Mr Rudd they will not back off this argument and nor will any other decent person.

.So it would seem your 'alone when thinking I am’ brainless’; Considering I personally sold this project to the Malaysian government with our very savvy partners in Animal Welfare the Muslim leaders of Australia whom by the way I had to convince first.

There are forty two heads who would know more about the export of Halal meat that you could dream of.
Your hero’s Elders requested a meeting with three of their close advisors.

As I suspected, your ‘claims’ of having written letter to Ministers and authorities requesting they cut the red tape, and reopen plants, to give farmers alternatives were disingenuous.

*We may sometimes not be wrong in doing so, still can not understand why animal welfare gets a start in a politics thread.*
Belly
You claim you support unions well perhaps you should do some reading the AMIEU I have put out for many years.
We are here to discuss the rescue budget and why funds should be put back into value adding. Do you even know what that is. You dont seem to understand that 'trade is the key to the solution here.

You abuse anybody who doesnt support your union while sticking it up a fellow union the AMIEU.

You claim you care about the economy but you refuse to listen to someone who is an employer in the meat indusrty like rehctub.

If this is any example of how you treat the boses on the ground no wonder they dont like the unions.


You have yet again demonstrated your lack of understanding about the rescue package and how very important the meat industry is in Australia.

Perhaps rehctub can explain to you the public funds lost by exporting not just animals as raw materials but other products the we should be value adding.

If ever Australia needed to do that its now. The rescue budget most certainly should include oportunitys to vaule add for the meat industry

It is silly he uses the rescue package to create jobs in one particular sector while we are paying to ship our other jobs off shore.

You are so right there. We should be providing jobs to the jobless. Let them work 20hr per fortnight for thier handout and, if they don't like it then, tough!, get another job. The time for free loaders in this country is over.

Imagine the amount of damage we could do to corruption rackeres in these third world countries if we only ever sent FOOD and not MONEY. I say ban live export. Our meat should come in a box or not come at all.

Now this 'value adding' senario can be effective in many areas. Low value crops can be picked and shipped to the nations in need. Even our own needy areas at times. All at no cost to the grower as the labor is free by way of the hand out recipients. Being unemployed effects ones self asteam, so let them work and, whan a full time job becomes available where they are they will be the first to get the job.

Value adding simply means adding value to something we already sell as raw product. Meat, some wheat, wood pulp (if that still occurs) steel, the list goes on. In the late 90 we sold wood pulp for something like $1,000 per ton and bought paper back at $15,000 per ton. Don't quote me I am not sure of the exact amount.

Every region has some type of industry that is running below peak capacity. Make the non workers work in these fatories, or, get a job.

Value adding like this can create fatory jobs, bus driver jobs for the workers, child care workers for the single mothers children. The list goes on. Nobody, but nobody that is capable of working should be allowed to not work. Esspecially whan we don't take every opportunity to value add our raw products.

And belly,You said "you constantly talk down to under privileged people, how can you know every poor person is a bludger?"
You are either ignorant, stupid or both. All of what you have just said has been answered by me in the past. You appear to be a typicle one eyed unionist. I am even tipping that you come from what they call 'the mother country'.

Why just the other day you agreed that wages had risen from supply and demand.

You know you live in a shaky employment system whan one can do the numbers before accepting the job. Gee, I can't take that job cause my benifits will be reduced. Sad Sad world we live in. Not only do we pay them to have kids, we now pay them to have time off to do it, then we pay them a good living to sit at home and not work.

What a joke, and to think that your type fight to protect these rules.

And of course, you have once again dodged my question. Is it fair for slightly more than half the workers to pay all the bills?

I just hope you fools don't bring our country to it's knees again, cause there's nothing left to sell this time.

By the way, it was over paid workers, mostly youth, that brought this situation upon us. They went from jobless, to a grand a week plus and spent the lot.

That is where the faulse ecconomy came from, not the rich, as they purchased additional houses, units etc, not beers and alchopops!

Why else do you think the bars and cafes have quadrupled in the past decade. Disposable income. Get it!