HAI' (Katie)... it is indeed my main gripe... it's my T-REX gripe... "ad hominem" in the absense of skilled debate.

I am yet to see one person who can legitimately show that surah 9:29 and 30 do not apply to today. Considering I have had face to face encounters with those from Saudi Arabia..and other places who affirm they do.. I have not the slightest doubt about this.

If I had a dollar for each time people get close enough, poke their nose through the door, observe the party and the guests and then retreat outside and just throw stones at the tent....I'd be retired.

I must say though, that this thread has brought out some interesting sidelights.

Sometimes my points might seem like 'wax on...wax off' (not making much sense initially) to some of our less educated (on Islam) participants, but close examination of the purpose of wax on and wax off shows the moves are extremely useful in self defense.

David F your point abut Mat 6:5 is very true. It is also wise.. you need to look a bit closer though. It is aimed at the person who tries to use public prayer as a means of selfish self advancement and personal glory.

Your observation about the scoundrels who attended the Parliamentary prayer meeting, wellll.. you are of course without sin right? :)

We all need to look to ourselves before criticising others. That doesn't mean criticism is not valid.

I criticize Rev Tim Costello for his THUMPING great salary while he himself criticized a fellow charity leader for his much lower salary in times past.. publically.

The Lords prayer.. Parliament? I like it, but won't be crushed it if isn't there.

Polycarp

"We all need to look to ourselves before criticising others."

Funniest line of the year to date!

Fractelle, you are right. I take no personal slight from your comments.

After some reflection, I have realized that you genuinely believe that Christians are somewhat stupid for holding their beliefs.

It comes as a real surprise that any Christian could have a modicum of intelligence (before your retraction, I was credited to have some!)

It is obviously not meant to be personal, but this commonly-held assumption does need some myth-busting. Under another name, this is bigotry.

We have had this discussion before, and others may not be aware that there is a precedent.

The great privilege in a democracy, is not just holding but expressing an alternative view. The burden of democracy, is tolerance of this freedom (even when it makes you want to vomit), with no corresponding obligation to have dissenters conform to the majority view.

Protest seems to have fallen out of favour. Yet can we all be expected, reasonably (if not fashionably) to conform to the (intelligent, superior, rational) atheist worldview?

What about Martin Luther King (first and foremost, a Baptist Minister)? Would there be an Obama without MLK? How about the Vietnam Protest Movement….Greenpeace?

Christians are not just pushing a barrow, but have deeply-held beliefs which shape their worldview. Foxy too, with the desire to live and aspire to a life modeled on Jesus Christ, is acting based on beliefs which appear unshakeable.

Online debate may not be constrained by the rules of formal debate (call me old-fashioned!) however, there is no debate at all if everyone is in agreement.

Curaezipirid: I have very much welcomed your post. It challenges many assumptions, especially that regarding the position of indigenous Australians on the Lord's Prayer.

At a recent afternoon tea party, given in honour of my family to welcome us into a new (predominately white) neighbourhood, an older Australian said (quite charmingly, and obviously relieved):

“we were led to believe that the new neigbours were Asian!” Quite blinkered to the fact that my husband is (100%) – as are both my children (50%), who all look well-tanned rather than "coloured".

Assumptions can be wrong.

Fractelle, if you enjoy talks from the Unitarian's (I've never been to one of their talks) you may find Robert Fulghum's writing interesting. He's a former unitarian minister that I've learned a lot from over the years through his writing. He has a website at http://www.robertfulghum.com/ I've not always agreed with him but have regularly been challenged by his thinking and sometimes found the incentive to expand my own as a result.

There is a christain writer named Adrian Plass with a quite different style who challenges those who want issues of faith in neat box's. I don't know how his writing would work for those without a church/christain background, possibly not well. His web page is at http://www.adrianplass.com/ His writing could be useful as a counterpoint to the very ugly representation of faith we so often see around here from some who claim to follow christ.

R0bert

Is there any writing that could be useful as a counterpoint to the very ugly representation of secularism from those who claim to follow science on these posts?. I am yet to find them!

Speaking of 'ugly' posts.. one only needs to look at the level of personal abuse to see them :) Some debate issues..others debate people.

Katie.. ur Asian? with mixed offspring? hmmm welcome to my world. Almost a parallel family :) you don't happen to have 2 boys and a girl do you? (r u Japanese background?)

SPIKEY I was not exactly surprised at your post about 'criticism of others' but.. I'm curious, can you find a nice juicy chunk of my posts which criticise 'others' in a personal way? or.. is it just that when you read cricitism of a faith or an idea, your brain just goes 'TILT' and you process that as 'personal' condemnation?

I've let loose a bit on John Pilger.. (confession)

"Pilger would be the miser who squeezes the last drop of political juice from a very squashed lemon."

Ok.. can you find more? More pertinent can you find anything on a par with the regular mockery and ill feeling of "You insufferable godbotherer" from CJ?

Pericles calls me a "rabble rouser and a hatemonger, spreading fear and loathing" hmmm a tad strong I'd've thought.

Look at Socratease "puke" "gibberish".. how enlightened.

FOXY.. a pledge is not a bad idea. There is another alternative, we could get out there more and share Christ and the Gospel with people and give some spiritual rebirth to the country (Starting with Politicians) such that those left outside the fold would see criticism of the LP as something to be embarrassed about.

Fraccy.. do you sense I take offense at your criticisms of my faith?

I worry whenever anyone enjoy's Spong... he just says what he knows certain people want to hear....not a strong qualification for a prophet.. please see Isaiah chapter 1 and chapter 5 for one who tells it like it is without fear of favor.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=1&version=31

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=5&version=31

Quite poetic and pulls no punches.

Speaking truth, no matter how unpalatable, was never, is not and will never be the pathway to social popularity.