Your powers of invention would be highly valued in Parliament, Boaz.

>>Aaaah..but Katie.. secular rabble rousers are in reality "High minded and balanced individuals who always have the deepest interests of humanity at heart" haha.. no.. no one said that as a quote, but if you read Pericles and his Chihwawa friends yapping posts they sure imply it.<<

It's a good thing we have your word that only other people descend into personal attacks, Boaz. Otherwise I might have suspected that you have yourself succumbed.

Thank goodness we know from the most reliable source that you are above such antics.

The most interesting aspect of your latest pot-shot, though, is that you are unable to find a quote that supports your accusation, and have to stoop to "implications". You need to be reminded that putting words into the mouths of others is the lowest form of argument.

And for the zillionth time, nobody - certainly not I - gives the proverbial monkey's what you believe in. If it makes you feel good, warm and secure, then fine, no-one begrudges you the emotional support your religion provides.

But I would remind you that you regularly place yourself on a higher moral plane than the rest of us, with your insistence that we "make it up as we go", with the inevitable conclusion that we all end up joining NAMBLA.

And that is a statement I can support with your own words, many times over..

As for the Lords Prayer in Parliament, I can only repeat my initial observation on the topic.

"Last time I looked, parliament was full of people without scruples, who thought nothing of raiding the public purse for their own purposes, who would happily leave ethics at the door in favour of short-term gain or political spin, and whose entire lives are spent in the pursuit of their own heavily-superannuated and freebie-laden retirement.

In my view, the recitation of the Lords Prayer at the beginning of each session is entirely consistent with their attitudes, behaviour and accomplishments."

Polycarp ole bean
There was a full stop in between the two sentences.
Location in Aus. I toyed with becoming a purveyer of christianity but
BECAUSE of my experiences in PNG etc I was unwilling/unable to become a converter.
New glasses for you? :-)

I grew up in Pt Moresby, Kerevat and Kavieng and visited much more.
Ejumacated in Bris religious pivate boarding school
S....P....L....C
Kumada kumada cara cara etc
(NZ Harkea) We were told it meant "we are the hairy men that make the sun shine...(pity for the girls...then again there was this one girl... I'm kidding)
Now you know why I hate hair cuts and have a beard

and Melb Northcote High when it was boys only.
"Here's to the green the purple and the Gold,
The colours of the School we love so well....(like hell)
To play the game both on the on the field and off
Firm to our moto will we swell
Never let the victors scoff
....et al 3 verses Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz most of us got to the ad lib "like hell" and then mubbled not so vague obscenities (sorry Janice Ian and "seventeen")
Wake up the senile beast and see what you unleash shame polycarp shame
:-}>

Katie

You are admirable in your continued support for Poly/Boaz. However, perhaps you need to remove your blinkers when evaluating much of what Poly/Boaz has to say. Apart from his continued offensive condescension towards any who hold different opinions, my link to the definitions of a fundamentalist, while intended in jest, have more than the ring of truth when applied to Poly/Boaz. Time to take your blinkers off regarding this particluar evangelist. Poly/Boaz based the legitimacy of retaining the LP on 2 points; tradition and majority rule. He is a member of a Pentecostal sect which accounts for exactly 1% of all Australian Christians, he is hardly in the majority that he likes to believe. Nor does his reason of tradition hold any weight.

Katie your definition of a Christian is simple, generic and finally homogenous - that you are intelligent enough to know there is great diversity within the umbrella of the Christian church, yet fail to make this distinction does you no credit.

Of course I am grateful that I don't live under sharia law - red herring? Yes, introduced by you to suggest that I am better off under christian rule. I disagree. I believe that for government to be effective in caring for its citizens it is vital that there be true separation of church and state, irrespective of which religion is followed by the bulk of the population. Rituals outlive their usefulness when they become perfunctory. Hence the need to dispense with the LP. I have no doubt that this prayer means a great deal to you, equally I do doubt that it has any meaning whatsoever to the majority of politicians whether they are religious or not.

We have the opportunity to replace the LP with something profound, that has meaning for all of us. Perhaps 30 seconds of silence, perhaps the national anthem or something else entirely that is both inspiring and relevant to all Australians.

Polycarp maintains:

"1/ Postmodernism is highly debated even among postmodernists themselves. (no kidding)

2/ The postmodernist critique of science consists of two interrelated arguments, epistemological and ideological. Both are based on subjectivity. "

Substitute 'postmodernism' and postmodernists' with 'Christianity' and 'Christians' - Nothing changes in his two propositions.

As Polycarp comments: "Wellll duh... of course.. if it's all based on SUBjectivity..then.. people will jump on their ideological horses and ride off in....all directions."

According to my reading of the Bible sincere Christians and Jews in parliament would not participate in public prayer. According to the Jewish Bible God does not want it.

Isaiah [1:15] And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

A few verses later God declares some of what he does want:

Isaiah [1:17] Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

I am not a Christian, but I sometimes read the New Testament and even sometimes find wisdom in it. Christians and other religionists generally do not observe the following, but I think it might be better if they did.

Matthew [6:5] And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. [6:6] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

From the above words of Jesus one should not have public prayer in the Commonwealth Parliament. Let each parliamentarian enter his or her closet and pray as the spirit moveth. Public Parliamentary prayer, according to Jesus, is hypocrisy.

I have been a consultant to a former leader of the Parliamentary Christian Fellowship. He told me that when he looked at the members he saw the greatest scoundrels in parliament.

Fractelle,

Your view of Poly:

“Apart from his continued offensive condescension towards any who hold different opinions”

Your view of me:

“Katie - that you are intelligent enough to know …. “

Tu quoque! And not even the slightest bit of irony.

Perhaps I’m even intelligent enough to describe the failure of this argument in Japanese, which I speak reasonably well:

mekuso hanakuso o warau;

Translated thus: "The sleep in one's eyes laughs at the snot in one's nose".

Or in my native language:

"Dares thus the kettle to rebuke our sin!/Dares thus the kettle say the pot is black!"
(Henry Fielding, “Covent Garden Journal”)

On how to spot a Christian:

“your definition of a Christian is simple, generic and finally homogenous”

Yes! This is not the liquorice allsort version of Christianity: it starts with a simple conversation with God...telling Him that you accept "His version" of who his Son was, and what He did for you...this is the straight and narrow path.

On professing Christians:

“Of course I am grateful that I don't live under sharia law - red herring?”

Evangelism is the mark of a Christian. Under hostile circumstances, martyrdom is assured.

I actually believe that it is impossible for a Christian to be “better off” under any type of rule (secular democracy may be more compatible with the evangelistic life, however, the offer of salvation is less attractive to fellow citizens and the fruit less plentiful).

On the brand of Christianity:

Does it matter if we live by the same biblical principles?

On rules to live by:

“We have the opportunity to replace the LP with something profound…”

Something profound, as opposed to the Lord’s Prayer? Whatever alternative we adopt, there is no doubt in my mind that it will require a lowering of the bar (not the opposite).