Dear FH.... your thoughts are indeed practical as far as most of us (Who don't live there) would see them.

But do you honestly think you can convince Hamas, or Islamic Jihad or the Israelis of your idea?

My view on the situation is the same as it's always been:

"It doesn't matter which side we support, the issue will only ever be resolved as it always has.. force"

Not that one condones or welcomes that.. but it's the historic reality.

All of our existing states came about by force and displacement.

OH.. did you see my report on the mind body spirit event ? :)
It was QUITE illuminating I assure you.. words cannot convey what it was like.

You, of all people here can probably better imagine the look on the Saudi blokes face when he explained 9:29 to me and added "The Jihad will go on till the last day" and he also went to considerable pains to emphasise "Islam is not a religion of peace..I don't want to mislead you" :) and he said that before I'd said "I'm Christian"

So.. as I've also always said.. "Your" Islam does not bother or worry me. "His" does.

On Jerusalem/Israel/WestBank/Gaza..I am actually attracted politically to the idea of David Singer, absorbing the various Palestinian bits into Jordan and Egypt...but we all know that the same problems would arise as for your own idea.. "the radicals".

TORTURE.. u know.. last night I was tortured. We were 'forced' to hold our arms up in the air while jogging on the spot.. until we could stand it no more.. the threat was "first person to lower his hands.. is shot" OOPs..no..sorry..that was Abu Graib :) in our case it was just pushups..and I was first.. The pain was incredible.

When Loewenstein writes, "I support the state of Israel and believe in its existence...There must be a way for Israel to exist securely while allowing justice for the Palestinian people.", why can't we reverse it and put the proposition again?

I support the state of Palestine and believe in its existence...There must be a way for Palestine to exist securely while allowing justice for the Israeli people.

That state would not have the illegal settlements of an occupying power dissecting it into submission.

Maybe justice and a secure homeland go hand in hand.

Would the security of a Palestinian state be improved by Iran having a nuclear deterrent? Would it help curb the excesses of the Israelis?

Logic says it would

Stevenlmeyer,

The Iranians are not comparable to the Russians, especially now that they have Ahmedinejhad and Khamanei. These are people who believe in the literal truth of an apocalypse which will bring destruction only to their enemies. The Mehdi will save all the good muslims.

Iran, like the Soviet Union, has a mission to spread its particular revolution by any and all means. There is little doubt that nuclear weapons will embolden Iran to carry out its aggressive ambitions. Islamic republics throughout the Muslim and Arab world are its primary goal, and this makes Iran’s sunni neighbours rightly, very nervous.

Possession of nukes will mean Iran is better able to blackmail or intimidate its neighbours, including Israel. It also makes it more likely that Iran will use its stores of chemical and biological weapons.

It will secure the rule of the mullahs and make democracy in Iran an impossibility.

But the idea that the regime can be deterred, because the Soviets were deterred, is a fallacy. You can’t deter suicide bombers by threatening to kill them. Have a read of “The Iran Threat” by Alireza Jafarzardeh. He analyses the regimes behaviour and points to 30 years of failed attempts to engage Iran in dialogue.

I wonder what message you think Iran is sending when they plaster their nuclear capable missiles with “wipe Israel off the map” posters?

CSteele

>>” the only conclusion available is that if Israel is going to hold on to their nuclear weapons then probably the best thing for the Middle East is for Iran to get them too.

WTF??

>>” As such it might just turn out that the way forward in the Middle East is for Iran to possess them.

That’s your reason?? The way forward to where? Nuclear conflagration? You are talking about a fundamental change in the balance of power.

You say >>” I'm not sure that Ahmadinejad is any crazier than any of the end time US politicians

I beg your pardon??

TBC

cont,

Bush may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but he doesn’t converse with 1000 year old men living in wells. He doesn’t regularly make threats to wipe whole countries off the map. He doesn’t make POLICY, based upon the likelihood of the return of a prophet or messiah in the next parliamentary term

You say >>”. In fact I have just read a book titled The Apocalypse of Ahmadinejad, by Mark Hitchcock loaned to me by a christian fundamentalist friend and in the last pages he compares the 'end times' of both faiths and there ain't a hell of a lot of difference.”

The difference between Bush and his cabinet and Ahmedinejhad and Khamanei, is that the Iranians are expecting the Mehdi’s imminent and literal return. Ahmedinejhad had the roads of Tehran widened to better accommodate the mehdi's triumphal return, for example.

In his speech to the UN he claimed the audience became ENRAPTURED, saying

On the last day when I was speaking before the assembly, one of our group told me that when I started to say "In the name of God the almighty and merciful," he saw a light around me, I was placed inside this aura. I felt it myself. I felt the atmosphere change and for those 27 or 28 minutes the leaders of the world did not blink. When I say they did not bat an eyelid I am not exaggerating because I was looking at them and they were rapt. It seemed as if a hand was holding them there and had opened their eyes to receive a message from the Islamic Republic” http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec05/iran_12-9.html

Yes Iran’s 25,000 Jews have a parliamentary representative who is obligated by law to support Iranian foreign policy and its Anti-Zionist position. Jews may not occupy senior positions in the government or the military and are prevented from serving in the judiciary and security services and from becoming public school heads. In 2004, many Iranian newspapers celebrated the one-hundredth anniversary of the publishing of the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html

"Does anyone truly believe the cowardly and CORRUPT mullahs in Iran are willing to be vaporised"

And this is the salient point that gets drowned out in WMD hysteria. People who spend their lives struggling to attain power and dominance don't want to see it vapourised in an instant. The mullahs, the CCP officials and Kim Jong Il all want to live long, despotic lives, and military power enables them to maintain it.

Currently, the most dangerous apocalyptic thinkers are in the US Republican party, because they think they can nuke at will and not pay the same price because god's on their side.

These arent't reality checks. They're hypocritical, paranoid fantasies.