Nicky, not a so what attitude. Fat sheep transportation in November(presumably Dec, Jan and Feb as well) should be restricted if mortality can't be controlled through varied diet and disease control. No issue there.

What makes a mockery of the anti-export fraternity agenda is that at anyother time, and any other weight class, no cruelty has been shown. In fact the prosecution limited its attack only to fat sheep, not a peep about anything else. Even then they didn't do particularly well.

My info comes from the AA site, I don't know who Wellards is.

If you mean merinos are "flighty" by highly stressed, I would agree. It seems a very natural reaction from an animal that has few defence systems. My understanding is that they adapt(or at least their cortisol levels normalise) within 24hrs of boarding the ship. It is the ability to adapt that is important, we certainly wouldn't want them stressed for the whole journey.

"neglect and illness" - I absolutely agree that sheep, or any animal, should not die through neglect. Unfortunately illness is not quite as simple an issue, no medicare exists, and unfortunately treatments are unaffordable for heart transplants and chemo let alone antiveneme for snake bite. Sheep will succumb to illness, no question, and their relatively short life span in itself skews death percentage figures. ie approx 3% of the remaining Zimbabwe population are dieing per year from aids alone. (repotedly 4000 a week in a population of 7m). At least farmers attempt to prevent deaths in their flock, even should it only boil down to an economic imperative.

http://www.theworldlink.com/articles/2008/03/28/news/doc47ed27ed810be587859378.txt

Thanks dickie we all need a laugh sometimes.

Err Dickie, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel of ideas
now :)

http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov/oceancolor/scifocus/oceanColor/dead_zones.shtml

Take a look at this NASA URL. There is a little map there of where
those dead zones actually occur. Not so much oceans, but estuaries,
mouths of rivers, always on the coast, always where far too many
people and far too many livestock live in close confinement. Duh,
of course you will get pollution issues. Perhaps you should have
mentioned that to the Catholic Church, when they employed you :)
People pollution is a real global issue, as nature is out of
balance. Nearly all those dead zones are in the northern
hemisphere, where all the people and their livestock live. Nature
is about balance.

Now take a hike out into the Indian Ocean, what you have is
water. Miles deep, waves, water. If you were a fish, you would
nearly starve, as drinking water is not a way to gain nutrition
and make a living. Put your pet goldfish into a tank of water
with no food and see how long it lasts :)

Given the state of the Indian Ocean and lack of nutrients to
even feed a reasonable fish population, any ground up sheep would
be gone in a jiffy, doing little but increasing the fish population
by a small fraction.

Once again, nature is about balance, don't compare estuaries with
tens of millions of people polluting nearby water with a totally
different scenario in the Indian Ocean. But then I am aware
that you girls would come up with any old excuse, to shut down
the live trade. If its actually a rational argument, is of
course another question.

Hi all
Rojo, my point about Merino sheep was based on something Yabby said; and if they are indeed highly stressed animals, then it seems unconscionable that they have been putting them on these ships, in their millions, for decades, in the full knowledge of that. Likewise their shipping of the "fat" sheep at that time of the year. They knew what they were doing and did it regardless. The same can be said about the shipment of the Southern cattle on the "Maysora" in November 1996, contrary to their OWN (mandatory) standards (see www.liveexportshame.com).

Furthermore, you fail to address the bloodbath in importing countries. Yabby contributes the industry propaganda about "improvements to animal welfare" by MLA, but seems to be unable to support that with reliable information, contrary to Animals Australia, who have spent days at a time filming the atrocities (perpetrated by people "trained" by MLA). That sort of evidence doesn't lie. Note in particular the treatment of the bull (I happened to revisit the 7.30 Report footage again last night). He may not have been Australian, but the importer is the same one who importants Australian animals.

In a case such as this, charges are laid on the basis of what there is a reasonable possibility of being proven (as these were under the WA Act, but only dismissed on a technicality). To lay charges over all the sheep who suffered before, during and after the voyage would have tied the court up for months, so you go for what you think you can win. That's how things are done.

What should NEVER be done is a Minister of the Crown interfering in judicial proceedings, particularly after they have commenced. There is Commonwealth and State Constitutional law to support that, known as the "separation of powers". By doing so, Ravlich has declared her hand as a puppet of the live export industry and invited speculation about corruption. By not sacking her, Carpenter is complicit in that impropriety.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky, nobody said that merinos are highly stressed, so don't misquote.
Merinos are just not as relaxed as some other breeds.
I have some girls here who will come up to your ute and look through
the windows, now a merino would not do that kind of thing.

Clearly its not an issue, as merinos thrive on the boats, as the
data shows. The glass is 99% full!

AA only film isolated incidents, not an overall industry representation.
I could take my little camera into any industry
and film isolated incidents. That is creating dogma, not giving
an objective overall view. The Catholics do the same thing.

The live export industry have made huge strides in the last 10
years, so that is great news. Credit where credit is due.

But nothing will ever satisfy people like you. You see a sheep
hogtied and freak out, as you are too inexperienced to even
realise that its common practise in Australia. Sheeps
throats are cut in Australia every day. Even your new transport
rules accept it. You clearly have two standards, one for
Australians and another for the nations which you hate so much.
Your racist comments are there for all to read.

As to the court case, it was all explained to you. You most
likely never bothered to read the posts in the first place.
Ah well.

Nicky, You focus greatly on the technicality that resulted in aquittal on all 3 charges, but not a mention that only one of the charges would have stuck had they actually been subject to the WA welfare act. The real technicality wouldn't be about 50 odd fat sheep dying, on a boat containing 103 000 sheep would it?

"you go for what you think you can win" - and they didn't even "win" that, what does it say about "cruelty" to the rest of the sheep on board? send the fat sheep in June and there are no problems according to Magistrate C.P. Crawford's findings.

No wonder the WA govt decided not to throw anymore money away. According to one of dickies links WA was forced to undertake the prosecution under Writ of Mandamus in the first place, not necessarily because it was winnable. And it obviously wasn't won.

I've made my thoughts on ME slaughter quite clear in the past and find the topic quite irrelevent to Australian live exports. The ME imports 16 million sheep per annum, of which Australia provides a quarter or less. I don't feel that sheep are any different, no matter what country they're from, so "saving" only Aussie ones is an incredibly narrow view, and while it might make some feel all cuddly here, it does nothing for the rest of the sheep in the ME. Ceasing Aust live-exports may not even impact on the numbers slaughtered there at all, as other producers pick up the slack. Hardly a win for the sheep.
I think by providing animals to the ME we are in a better position to improve slaughter conditions over there, not only for sheep and cattle but camels too. I just can't see our efforts to educate and change having any influence without supplying the product to go with it.

Anyway, it seems to me the battle against "cruelty" aboard ships is shaky when the argument comes round to the animals treatment once they're actually off at the other end.

Hi all
Rojo, we are talking about a matter that was brought to the attention of the WA authorities in 2003, that was why the Writ of Mandamus was filed - basically to force them to do their job. The "new" ALES, I am now told by Canberra, would "prohibit" such a shipment (like they enforce that - as we saw with the "Maysora" cattle and the "Al Messilah" sheep in 2006).

The charges under the WA Act were proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and the WA Solicitor General disagreed with Crawford letting these people off based on the provisions in the Constitution sufficient to have begun appeal proceedings. Subsequent interference by a government minister in judicial process is the argument here.

Given the fact that we are talking about people who still publically flog, imprison and stone to death female rape victims, I really don't think the handful of "animal welfare experts" in the Middle East is going to have too much influencee over the brutality to animals either. That is LiveCorp propaganda. Animals Australia's material was filed over sustained periods on each occasion, showing the very same people "trained" by LiveCorp in animal "welfare" (slow learners?)

I think the focus should be on the fact that if Australia stops sending animals - any animals - to face the brutality that is routine in the Middle East and SE Asia, it is taking a moral position that Australians find that unacceptable. Remember, all these countries are signatories to the OIE Standards, have been for years, routinely ignore them, and face no sanctions for doing so (a bit like LiveCorp here, where AQIS routinely fails to enforce the ALES). If one country takes a stand, then it becomes an international cause of real concern. We can only fix what we can in Australia(i.e. ban it), and hope to influence other countries to do the same.

Cheers
Nicky