Hi all
Pelican, you may have noticed that insults are usually Yabby's primary forms of attack because he/she has no real defence beyond reiterating the industry's propaganda. And Yabby, Crawford's judgment was nothing if not predictable. Find any loophole in the law to let off the exporters, even if you are forced to conclude that they have breached the WA Animal Welfare Act (have you read the judgment yet?)

I really don't think that Dickie and I constitute a "farmer hating" community, that really does border on paranoia. Just because we hate cruelty it does not automatically follow that we hate farmers (much as some deserve it. Have a look at a website called www.stoptac.org - it's Tasmanian, and it has a few stories to tell.

But while you have your corrupt Minister Ravlich, not to mention Fat Chance, over there I'm sure they'll be just fine.

Dickie, that was an appalling case with the goats, who suffer particularly badly in the export process. The picture says it all really, doesn't it?

Cheers
Nicky

dickie

Thanks for the link (just awful to see neglect like that) and I will keep tabs on the outcome.

Yabbby

You obviously have a vested interest in this argument and as such have your own understandable bias. I hardly know where to begin.

1. Your belief that those who oppose live-animal exports are possessed of some sort of "weird ideology" just means that you don't agree with it. Not only vegans/veggies oppose this cruel trade but ordinary people (meat eaters even) with no particular barrow to push other than common decency.

2. I fully understand the issues and the impact on farmers but just because something has been allowed over a period of time does not mean that it is right nor that it should be continued. Agriculture unlike many other sectors has always been generously reimbursed for loss of income for various reasons ie.drought, equine infuenza etc. I am sure something like this would be organised in the short term.

3. Live exports are a drop in the ocean compared to total meat exports and our dominant markets are Japan and the US as shown here:

http://www.austrade.com/Overseas-Meat-capability-overview/default.aspx

To quote from this site:

"In 2005-06, Australian meat exports (excluding poultry) were worth $7.6 billion (Source: IbisWorld). Japan continues to be the dominant market, absorbing 47 per cent of Australian meat exports in 2005-06. The US follows, accounting for 28 per cent.

Major export markets:

Beef – USA, Japan, South Korea, Canada, Taiwan, South East Asia, Europe
Lamb – USA, North Asia, Pacific, European Union, Mexico, Middle East
Mutton – Middle East, North Asia, USA, South East Asia, Mexico, South Africa
Pork – Singapore, Japan, South East Asia
Poultry – South Africa, Hong Kong, Pacific region, China, Sri Lanka, Cameroon, Philippines, Indonesia, Singapore
Goat – USA, Canada, Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, Japan, Korea".

To be continued...

Continued...

4. It is laughable that our governments have condoned live animal exports on the basis of export dollars and farm income but gave no thought to that principle when Riverland farmers were ploughing in their citrus trees, grape growers were having to diversify and pig farmers were faced with drop in incomes due to pork imports from Canada - thanks to spurious free trade agreements and the lifting of tariffs.

5. While Australia, under pressure, has slowly improved its live export standards it is still unacceptable and cruel. DAFF's own website totals live exports at $830M and of that $557M to Muslim countries. The website also outlines other live exports to countries like Israel (hardly Halal).

6. Australia could do more to promote the banning of live exports at the global level which would mean a rise in the sale of frozen meat even if the demand for freshly slaughtered halal is strong. Sometimes supply can influence demand not the other way around. Take one product out of the equation and the other will sell.

7. Some more links:

http://andrewbartlett.com/blog/?p=149
http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/facts/halal.php
http://www.rspca.org.au/ecards/card.asp?x=006
http://liveexportshame.com/publications/barlett_31March2004.htm

You don't have to have a vested interest (ie. a farmer or a vegan) to put forward an informed opinion on this issue

*I really don't think that Dickie and I constitute a "farmer hating" community, that really does
border on paranoia.*

Hehe Nicky, do you even remember what you and Dickie have posted, about the evils
of farming livestock for a profit? Only yesterday on another thread, you told us
that farming was all but dead, irrelevant to the Australian economy. I remind you
that the archives are full of absolute gems from both of you, showing open hostility
to farmers and what they do.

*Find any loophole in the law to let off the exporters*

Nicky, if a law is full of loopholes then it is not good law and needs to be rewritten.
Is that kind of basic commonsense beyond you?

*Not only vegans/veggies oppose this cruel trade*

Pelican, it just so happens by sheer coincidence, that those who are constantly complaining are also veggies/vegans perchance. On their websites they tell us
about the evils of eating meat.

BTW, where did you get your information that the trade is cruel? I remind you that
conditions on most boats are far better then in most Qld cattle feedlots. Boats are
simply floating feedlots. So why is it ok to keep cattle in a feedlot, but not on
a boat, under better conditions?

*Agriculture unlike many other sectors has always been generously reimbursed for loss of income*

Not in WA it hasn’t. We are simply a cash cow for the rest of Australia.

Why should farmers in WA not be paid similar prices for their livestock, as in
the Eastern States? We haven’t for years, where is the compensation?

Fat chance Pelican, in your dreams maybe. That is why we paddle our own
canoe here, live exports being a valuable part of that.

*Live exports are a drop in the ocean compared to total meat exports*

That’s not much good to a farmer in WA, who has some wethers to sell,
the live trade is paying 60$, the local trade is paying 20$. You are confusing
beef and mutton, quite different animals dear :)

This weeks mutton price, NSW-184c, Vic-178c, WA-93c. Why?

*Australia could do more to promote the banning of live exports at the global level which would
mean a rise in the sale of frozen meat*

Hehe Pelican, Australia can’t even get more then a token quota of mutton and lamb
into the EU, or about 6-7% of New Zealand’s quota, so influencing others is not
what we are good at, judging by the results. Around 16 million animals are shipped
into the Middle East. How good is Australia’s influence on say Sudan, Ethiopia,
China, etc? The Saudis are earning 1 billion $ a day from oil, they will buy what
they want. Kim Chance inspected a new meatworks there and he says its equal to
or better then anything he has seen in Australia.

So you quote a heap of websites, who just happen to be run by people who
base their philosophies on Peter Singer, the founder of Animal Liberation and
I gather the founding president of what is now Animals Australia.

Yup, they are moving heaven and earth to end the trade and it’s a slick marketing
campaign to influence people. Clearly its working, with people like yourself.

Their ideology is anti livestock farming and for animal liberation, virtually all
veggies and vegans. I have major issues with their version of the claimed
truth, but that’s a long story. It certainly does not mean that you are informed,
you’ve just heard one side of a story, IMHO a very distorted version.

Fact is that 99% of sheep arrive in good condition, the majority gaining weight
along the way.

Fact is that companies like Siba are spending big bucks to upgrade ships and
have especially built ships made.

Fact is the animals are fed, watered and sheltered on their journey, with an
Australian vet overseeing their health and wellbeing.

Fact is they are not all suffering as claimed, sheep are herd animals and
happiest amongst other sheep, with plenty of food and water.

Fact is that if people want them killed locally, they are free to buy them
and slaughter here. Go right ahead, then the trade will-end-tomorrow.

Pelican

Last year over 40,000 dead and diseased animals for export were dumped overboard, unable to endure the journey.

The industry claims these animals are healthy and vet-checked prior to departure and that only 1% died on the journey but one percent equals over 40,000.

Your research will reveal that the largest shipment of Australian animals are despatched each year to coincide with the Muslim religious celebrations.

Minister Ravlich is well aware that many of our animals also "participate" in the Muslim street festivities as you will see by the following link:

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos