*Secondly, have you
noticed that when he has nowehere to go*

ROFL Nicky, I always have somewhere to go, as my philosophies are thought through and based on nature’s laws. You are trying to deny those laws, so
your philosophy is mistaken. Dickie has told us about the evils of David
Attenborough films, as they show what happens in nature. Has it ever occurred
to you girls that perhaps Singer got it wrong?

*And one could wish that farmers (with exceptions where
due) were in fact as sentient as the animals they exploit.*

As I pointed out, you hate farmers. As you know little about farming, you don’t
seem to understand the win-win situations that can exist between people and other
species. I remind you that the sheep on my farm lead far more natural lives and
have far more freedoms, then the dogs in your house. I practise what I preach.

*Furthermore, there is nothing acceptable about keeping animals in feedlots*

So why not be honest Nicky and admit that you would like to close the whole
feedlot industry down as well, not just live exports. Come clean on what you
believe, so that Govts and everyone else in the Australian community knows
exactly where we all stand. Should the farming of all livestock cease as well?

*Yabby, you haven't been able to provide yet any of the information I was looking for*

I haven’t bothered looking Nicky, for that is your job, not my job. You might be
used to bossing the boyfriend around, if he puts up with it, that is his problem. I am not that silly.

Yes AA lost the case, or they would not be so pissed off. Their aim to shut down the
industry, based on the new welfare laws, has failed. That is the bottom line.

*and one wonders who is getting "kickbacks" in this.*

So are you accusing people of corruption? Everyone with an ounce of common sense can see the reasoning going on, apart from the ideologues of course, where
ideology seems to outweigh any kind of common sense

Yabby

"I don’t need to convince you of anything Bromwyn, as livestock is clearly not your field, so your opinion is really not important IMHO."

In my humble opinion? Humble? What a joke! I’ve read enough of your posts now to know that they don’t contain much humility.

I mightn't deal in livestock, but like it or not Yabby boy my opinion on animal cruelty is every bit as valid as yours.

“So far a great deal of the comments about sheep have been due to pure ignorance about the species. Most of these people have never even worked in a set of yards with a few hundred sheep, apart from PF. They simply don’t understand the world from a sheep’s perspective, which is quite different, then the world from a dog’s perspective.”

I grew up on a sheep farm and am not at all ignorant of their behaviour. Even if I were it wouldn’t preclude me from empathizing with their pain and suffering.

“Sheep are herd animals, ruminants etc. Their behaviour is quite different to other species.”

They might be herd animals but that doesn’t mean they’re happy to be crammed into dark airless enclosures, unable to move for weeks on end, unable to escape their own waste, unable to regulate their own body temperature and to be force fed on food they’re not used to and which many refuse to eat.

Nothing I've read yet convinces me that this trade is humane. Perhaps you can tell me where I’ve got it wrong. No name-calling, no put downs, just a simple straight forward explanation of the decent and humane care you say these animals receive on these boat journeys.

”Yet here is a clear case of ideologues ignoring that farmers too are sentient beings.”

I come from a family of farmers and understand very clearly the difficulties they face in adapting to climate change and the vagaries of global markets. This doesn’t give them licence to ruthlessly exploit their livestock or their land for that matter but that’s another debate. Good farmers are careful to do neither.

*Any weight gains I think can
be reasonably attibuted to the bulk rubbish they are fed for just that purpose*

So Nicky, with your apparent wisdom, tell us where the animal nutritionists have
got it wrong. Sheep pellets are made under their guidelines including mj/kg of
energy, % protein, minerals and vitamin supplements. What is rubbish and where
do they have it wrong ?

*Office, hospitality and retail workers, as do all
members of the wider Australian community, have the capacity to assess and make determinations about
the material they have seen.*

They might form an opinion Nicky, that does not mean that it is informed. Would you let a surgeon operate on you, if he had no experience in his field? I doubt it.
Yet you want to pass judgement on things in which you have no experience. Double
standards of course. Part of wisdom is knowing that there are things that you don’t know, not just being engulfed by emotions. That is why we employ experts, much
like you would, for your surgery.

*I grew up on a sheep farm and am not at all ignorant of their behaviour.*

Then you would know Bronwyn, that sheep spend their summer siestas camped on
sheep camps. They sit there chewing the cud, surrounded by their poop, which we
call smarties. Every healthy farm kid with a good immune system has eaten a few :)

*that doesn't mean they're happy to be crammed into dark airless
enclosures, unable to move for weeks on end,*

Where is your evidence that the sheep ships are dark, airless, or that they are unable
to move for weeks on end? Do you know about the ventilation systems on board?
How many days do you think it takes from here to the ME?

We have had various people travel on these ships and report back, reasonable and rational people, but of course the ideologues will always claim that they must be
biased, or paid off, or some other excuse. That conditions on ships could be
quite good, they refuse to accept

The following is a revealing account of how the livestock industry operates under stealth – they are indeed moral pygmies as is the resident crustacean (C.Destructor) who continues with his B rated propaganda on behalf of this cruel industry:

19. “ Lack of inspection at live exports wharfs results in increased mortality, morbidity and suffering of animals, both in the feedlots and in transit. Currently, the Australian Quarantine Inspection Service (‘AQIS’) is entrusted to inspect the animals on the wharf at loading. On 15 December 2003, however, AQIS advised that AQIS inspectors had not inspected animals at the wharf for the previous 6 years. The presence of inspectors at the loading and unloading of animals and during transport should be a strict requirement in the Standards.”

20. “Currently, the on-board management aboard live export shipments equates to intensive livestock production or less. By way of example, in November 2003, aboard the MV Al Kuwait, one experienced Australian stockperson was employed to supervise approximately 103,000 sheep. The supervision is clearly inadequate. Standard 5 should specify the minimum number of veterinarians and stockpersons required per animal.”

http://lawyersforanimals.org.au/2006/10/01/comments-on-version-2-of-the-australian-standards-for-the-export-of-livestock/

This industry does not know how hollow and miserable and full of glib talk it is, how crude it looks to those who follow it across the seas to witness what is being done there; and this industry will never earn the right to criticise those who defend the defenceless.

The International community is objecting and judging this nation on the manner in which it treats its animals.

One could not enumerate all the crimes perpetrated on these animals - crimes committed under the pretext of the economy. Economy for whom? Our sycophantic governments have let loose the dregs of mankind upon these hapless creatures.

Nicky, I've had a quick perusal of the judgement and the one charge that would have stuck under the WA Animal welfare act refered specifically to "fat sheep transported in November". Apparently this ruling is made because inanition and salmonellosis is higher for fat sheep travelling over summer, thus summer becomes an "unnecessary harm". No problem it seems to transport in winter though, and no problem for normal weighted sheep at anytime.

I would question why if live export is so blatantly cruel, why the case prosecutors refered only to an eighth of the sheep on that shipment(fat ones), and why no other charges were proven

Bronwyn, judging by how you described how you think that things look on a livestock ship,
I will admit that the live sheep industry and farming in general, are pretty hopeless
at informing the public as to what is really going on. Just about all that I read is
in MLA publications going to growers, some stuff in the rural press and similar.

So the general public don’t really have good access to more objective information,
to even try and form some kind of objective opinion. The ideologues run very
slick marketing campaigns, similar in style to that of the Catholic Church about abortion,
the aim is to push emotional buttons. Shame that they know so little
about livestock :)

Anyhow, after all the Peta claims, which farmers knew were wrong, Cameron
Morse, who was then editor of the Countryman, decided to hop on a live sheep
boat for himself, to find out a little more.

Cameron was a good editor. Unlike what many believe, there is regular discussion within
the farming community about all sorts of issues and he was always one to call
a spade a spade. Since then another couple of journalists have done the same,
one from the Eastern States, one from the ABC.

Wellards have put some of those original articles on their website, as it kind of
dawned on the industry that nobody was putting up a more factual account,
so animal liberation groups could claim whatever they liked.

Here is the link, if you are interested.

http://www.wellardgroup.com.au/media_centre/media_releases.phtml

Read them for yourself and form your own opinion if things are anything like you
had envisaged.

Yup, at the moment the Becrux is the best boat in the live trade, but Siba ships,
which own that ship, are a little different from previous owners. They are prepared
to invest in animal welfare and do things properly. They have two new purpose
built ships being built right now in Singapore. Even New Zealand use their ships
when they are moving breeding ewes around the world, to places like Mexico.