Runner: "... the thousands of innocent victims of suicide bombers. Whether you are in Madrid, USA. London, Israel, Bali, Cronulla, France or anywhere else on the planet the denial of the problem wont make it go away. Minimize the problem if you like but it won't help past, present or future victims."

Madrid, USA, London, Israel, Bali, Cronulla...How many innocent victims were there at Cronulla? Let's keep this whole debate calm and evidence-based.

Vanilla,
Could not help but notice that you said "moderate" muslims, with inverted commas. That was a good move as I, as well, ask what is meant by "moderate". Their meaning of "moderate" could be quite different from what westerners believe it means.

When the survey is published, it will be interesting to see if an explaination of the term "moderate" is given and if the pollsters ensured those polled were made aware of the words meaning.

I also notice that the poll covered 35 countries and that makes me wonder how many of those polled were literate and were aware of the world outside of their own community or country.

According to one website that apparently keeps track of these things. Since 9/11 there have been 10647 terrorist attacks and for the month of January 2008, there were 187 attacks, killing 829 and injuring 1378.

THose polled said the west must change its negative attitude towards Islam and muslims. With stats like the above its near impossible to see anything positive. The only thing I can see is that Islam are doing their bit to control world population. Not keen on their methods though.

I wonder if all those who rioted after the Danish cartoons incident said they were "moderate". They had placards saying 'kill those who insult Islam' and 'Behead those who say Islam is violent'.

After each major terrorist attack, muslims claim 'it is only a few'. well those 'few' are pretty good at what they do and get around a bit.

PELICAN...Crusades extremist act ? not at all :) I regard them in many ways.

It depends on which one you are speaking of.

FIRST Crusade... began with motives of military defense, couched in terms of religious righteousness. To the extent that the Emperor fulfilled Gods intent as outlined in Romans 13:1-5 I have to say it was moral and lawful. To the extent that they deviated from the simple challenge of defeating an aggressive enemy and sought privilege, booty, power and wealth.. they were absolutely out of the providential will of God.
Other Crusades might be described as 'Stupid' (the Childrens crusade)
etc..
Some actions carried out in the First Crusade were abhorrent and extreme, and did not in any way reflect Christ or His teaching in regard to enemies. (not even the spirit of his teaching let alone the literal)

FOXY.. and TRTL.. there are some weaknesses in both your positions.

FOXY's "the common but mistaken belief in the West that Islam and Islamic fundamentalism are closely connected, if not identical."

Now..if Foxy was sincere in this, she would have actually disputed things I have clearly laid out and challenged those issues rather than simply describe me in less than glowing terms.. i.e. 'you are prejudiced'

Now..Foxy says it is a "Mistaken" belief that "Islam" and "Islamic Fundamentalism" are the same.

2 answers.

1/ They are not the same because 'ordinary' Islam is 'extreme'
2/ They are the same because it can be proven to be so.

If Foxy had said "Islam..as PRACTICED... by most muslims is not the same as Islamic fundamentalism" I would have no issue with what she said.

But she said 'we are mistaken'..and this, is saying we are
"naive"
"Mislead"
"Confused"
"Lacking in learning"
or all of the above.

One only needs to look at a number of my posts which list specific issues.. to find what 'Islam' by itself..stands for.
Before saying 'You are mistaken' those issues need to be refuted by evidence.

TRTL... you accuse me of playing 'semantics'.. which is another way of saying "I cannot show the error of your facts.. so I'll accuse you of playing games."

Now..you rip into me *ouch* all the time about 'going on ad nauseum'...but who is it who keeps me going ? :) Its...YOU and the likes of Foxy who make these whacky statements based on bleeding heart misguided compassion, rather than fact and evidence.

The major claims I've made re "Islam" are:

1/It allows child abuse. (Marriage, sex,divorce of prebubescent children) (65:4)

2/ It institutionalizes domestic violence against women. (4:34)

3/ It insitutionalizes sexual abuse of captive women. (23:5-6)

4/ It declares a perpetual state of war between Allah and non muslims. (9:29) (This verse is the primary justification used to wage offensive Jihad)

5/ It vilifies Christians and Jews by name.. on the grounds of their core beliefs. (9:30)

BUT.. UR JUST CHERRY PICKING VERSES RIGHT?.. err..'no'.

I can support each assertion and the verse on which it is based by context..history and Mohammads own life.

These above assertions would need to be specifially disproven before I'll admit we are 'mistaken'.

Can you find Muslims who will deny that Islam teaches or means these things ? Or course you can.. just like you can find 'Christian' scholars who don't believe in the resurrection.

But before any brave soul tries that.. my weapons are reputable Islamic scholars, not Western hate sites.
I await with baited breath....for the disputation of the 'issues' :)

but I have my industrial strength 'anti ad-hominem' chasity belt already buckled tight just in case.

Mr Boaz David,

Would you kindly go back to my post on this thread and re-read what I actually did say.

I do not appreciate your attributing your words to me.

Thank You.

Frankton, Banjo,

Yes I agree with your comments however instead of us looking there we need to look ‘here’ in Australia. We CAN work together. Only if we Act "Now"

The Boazie approach will lead us into trouble.

Pelican, for you-
Relations with Christians & Jews:
"O People of the Book (Christians and Jews)! Come to common terms as between us and you that we worship none but Allah, that we associate no partner with Him, that we raise not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah" (3:64).

David Boaz
Don’t you just take the cake. I am sorry little buddy but at this stage I would have to say Antonio’s words to you “David Do not are so blind” apply.

Antonio may have some scary ideas and a bit of a bad attitude but I think and I *hope it comes from misguided ideas wanting to ‘improve humanity in general’ ( Sorry about that Antonio)

Here you are still ignoring our invitation. Your rude and arrogant and David you ‘are’ spreading hatred.

I am not trying to come across as a smart arse. Its really ‘not smart ‘what I am doing actually, but as far as I know and (AFIC can correct me if I am wrong We are the ONLY Aussies in this country to have worked with Muslim Leaders ,held a MOU for five years
etc. People NEED to listen especially "you"

We know the people the issues well. Do you want to listen or learn David Boaz -'No'.

You know you remind me a bit of trying to work with the Animal Liberation People David And RSPCA Presidents comments= He said -= you can not work with these people- You can not sit down and talk to them because they think they walk on a higher moral ground.

The point is David at Least the Muslim Leaders sat down came to the table and talked. Ok we got off track but Theory Tried [sort of} in the first place.
Now point me please to a Christian Church that has done likewise ---