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The Forum > General Discussion > That sinking feeling

That sinking feeling

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NATO Chief Admits NATO Expansion Was Key to Russian Invasion of Ukraine
http://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/nato-chief-admits-expansion-behind-russian-invasion

'The continuing U.S. obsession with NATO enlargement is profoundly irresponsible and hypocritical. And now Ukrainians are paying a terrible price.'

"The Ukraine War will end when the U.S. acknowledges a simple truth: NATO enlargement to Ukraine means perpetual war and Ukraine’s destruction. Ukraine’s neutrality could have avoided the war, and remains the key to peace. The deeper truth is that European security depends on collective security as called for by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), not one-sided NATO demands."

- And while you're at it charter boat, you should probably read this one as well and get it through your thick skull.

The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace
http://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/wgtgma5kj69pbpndjr4wf6aayhrszm

'By recognizing that the question of NATO enlargement is at the center of this war, we understand why U.S. weaponry will not end this war. Only diplomatic efforts can do that.'
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 4 October 2023 9:32:34 AM
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Dear Armchair Critic,

Question. If Ukraine had been part of NATO in 2014 do you think Russia would have still invaded and occupied Crimea?

What should a country do when a highly aggressive neighbour is intent on meddling in its internal affairs and elections?

The Ukrainians obviously feel this is worth the fight and as Australians supporting the underdog use to be one of our values.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 4 October 2023 10:24:55 AM
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Hi SteeleRedux,
"If Ukraine had been part of NATO in 2014 do you think Russia would have still invaded and occupied Crimea?"

Well, it's not really a simple or realistic question to ask.
The fact is they were not a part of NATO.

Certainly the Russian military was weaker then, but I think Putin knew the Wests game going back as far as the Budapest NATO summit in 2008 when NATO announced plans to expand to Georgia and Ukraine.

I think he would've still acted to defend the Russian Naval base in Sevastopol for the Black Sea fleet which dates back to 1783
- And he would've acted the moment Ukraine moved in the NATO direction, which he did.

But I don't think he ever really wanted to go to war, and there are plenty of facts to show that's the case, but the West refused to consider Russias security interests (which is because this war was always about provoking Putin into action, and creating a war using Ukraine as the Wests proxy) and the west thought it could sanction Russia into a political crisis and Putin's ousting.

"What should a country do when a highly aggressive neighbour is intent on meddling in its internal affairs and elections?"

Well if diplomacy doesn't work, then the only option is war.
I know it's not a great answer but I have to point out that if you're saying Russia meddled in Ukraines internal affairs and elections the West is just as guilty as Russia is.
If Russia did it on a regional scale, then the west does it on an international scale.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 4 October 2023 11:56:12 AM
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"The Ukrainians obviously feel this is worth the fight and as Australians supporting the underdog use to be one of our values."

Many of them have nationalistic hopes, but its hard to say how things would be different if the Banderite NAZI leaning Ukrainian government were not installed.
Did you know Zelensky actually campaigned and won on a peace platform with Russia?

Does a Ukrainian woman care more about nationalism and lines on a map when her husband - the father of her kids, her brothers, and father are all dead, I don't know?
And corrupt Ukrainian government officials are collecting these dead soldiers pays and denying their loved ones of war pensions.
The place is more corrupt than Mexico, and that's saying something.

Regards supporting the underdog, I guess that depends on which way you look at it.
I support the Russian position (by default because I oppose the Wests, you all know why) and they are the underdog in a fight with the US.
Obviously if you say it's a war between Russia and Ukraine then Ukraine is the underdog.

India seems to be following a course of neutrality, and will not abandon Russia. Look at what Jaishankar said.
http://youtu.be/kKJeaM-FeMA

America thought it would weaken Russia militarily but despite what SM suggests and to loosely quote Yamamoto they have actually awoken the sleeping bear, the Russian military industry is on a war footing and China is watching closely, and making preparations unhindered while the West is overstretched and military industry under-resourced.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 4 October 2023 12:09:23 PM
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Baldrick,

Where have I ever advocated for war against China? The point of arming Taiwan, especially against ships and aircraft is to make an invasion by China extremely difficult and costly in lives and ships. Having an effective deterrent is the best insurance against another illegal invasion.

If you are trying to imply that the US and Taiwan couldn't smash a Chinese blockade in a day, you must be dreaming. The 100s of anti-ship missiles Taiwan has would make short work of a blockade.

As for the US Air Force, it has more modern fighters than the rest of the world put together and would squash the RuAF like a bug.
Posted by shadowminister, Wednesday, 4 October 2023 1:54:37 PM
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Hey SM,
"Where have I ever advocated for war against China?"

Well if that's not a position that you support, then I apologise, but you can't really blame me for misinterpreting based on many of your arguments and positions in regards to Ukraine.

"The point of arming Taiwan, especially against ships and aircraft is to make an invasion by China extremely difficult and costly in lives and ships. Having an effective deterrent is the best insurance against another illegal invasion."

- That does seem to be the Wests position, turn Taiwan into a 'porcupine', to make it so costly to China that it thinks twice.

But it's really very much the same argument as Ukraine.
You might see it as strengthening a defensive posture, but that's not how Russia or China see the Wests moves;
- They see it as the West using the western aligned governments in these nations as building a military forward base on their doorstep.

You see these timelines for war in 2026 etc.
China's actual timeline it has set for reunification with Taiwan is 2049.

America wants to knock all it's rivals over the head before they can rise up to challenge it, and not challenge it militarily, because the US is not at risk of invasion, what they are actually defending is the US dollar system.

They can't allow anyone to overtake them.

"If you are trying to imply that the US and Taiwan couldn't smash a Chinese blockade in a day, you must be dreaming. The 100s of anti-ship missiles Taiwan has would make short work of a blockade."

Not ships, Subs.
Russia and China have well over a hundred submarines between them, and they will have more before this war kicks off.
How are Taiwan going to get supplies in or out?

You can bet that China has been looking at the Wests war games and plans as well, the US more or less advertises its position and thinking.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 4 October 2023 3:46:05 PM
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