"The title 'Post feminist' or 'pro-rape' indicates that if a person does not support feminism, they then must be supportive of a pro-rape culture!"

I agree that the authors have created a false dichotomy, especially when "feminist" is defined quite ridgidly. I am concerned about sexual assault, but have little time for the orthodox feminist position of "any woman can do whatever she likes and any criticism will be either blaming the victim or undermining her right to choice."

Taking the Brimble case as an example, she made some silly choices. Anyone who will-not admit that is sending a dangerous message to other women. Anyone who fails to criticise any decision, no matter how stupid, because it might hurt some woman's feelings, is being paternalistic. Dianne Brimble probably consented to at least some sex with these creeps, which adds to a culture of "jerks always get the girl." The makes the world a worse place for other women. By attempting to defend everything that she did, people are focussing discussion on her. If they just admitted that she was reckless, this debate would end and focus would shift back to the creepy blokes involved.

Antiseptic

I believe that we all have a responsibility to make this world a better place, even if that comes at a cost. This explains my problem with "feminists" who want the world to be a better place for women, but don't want to pay any cost.

pynchme,

I stand by my assertion. It is taken as read that women disapprove of rape. That you don't think it is taken as read that most men disapprove of rape means that you think that men are somehow responsible as a gender, and you see us as all the same entity. It's a cry for men to 'prove' they're not a rapist like the rest of their gender.

It's inescapable. And it's the root of the problems women will have in getting men to join their crusade as the authors wish.

Other branches of the problem are highlighted in your article, the patronising of traditional masculine traits, as if they are inferior to traditional female traits.

There is no corresponding pressure for women to be more aggressive, more assertive, more physical, more competitive, less neurotic, less emotional, more stoic, more independent/detached from their friends, physically tougher, less vain, more dominating etc. ie Nobody would want any of these 'masculine' traits, as they're bad. ie Men are 'bad', they need to be more like the 'good' women.

It's one thing to encourage men to live a full life and broaden the definition of masculinity for the benefit of men and women, but the propaganda as far as I can see is that all traditionally make traits are undesirable, and all traditionally female traits are the ideal. I don't buy it, and it reaks of man hatred.

What man would want to join a cause that heckles men to prove they are not a violent abusive rapist, and defines every aspect of the traditional definition of masculinity as undesirable. Some PR campaign.

Anyway isn't one of the gripes of feminists that femininity was imposed by men? Sounds like they're now guilty of attempting to impose a new definition of masculinity to me.

James,

'"Women are better people than men."'
That's what I hear in all this re-definition of masculinity sponsored by feminists.

phanto,

'The agenda here is to make most men feel bad and to take responsibility for the behaviour of some men.'
Bingo.

Pynchme..maybe some reading around the idea of "male gaze" might be a good way to start. just google it. especially given the responses of the "capitalist sexist pig dogs" ;-) on most OLO threads when a woman dares to speak about women and womens experience...like they keep harping on "what about men what about men" because they are afraid (threatented) to even consider that it might be possible for a women to talk about her experiences without reference to "how men feel" all the time....

"male gaze" suggests that women are denied human agency, relegating them to the status of objects, hence, the woman can only experience life by identifying with a man's perspective. sound familiar?

patriarchy is the problem.

men who rail against feminism do so because with provision for men's legislatures only, Australia's Constitution, the source of power and control in the nation, requires that all men govern all women ... a proposition taken for granted a century ago but a nonsense in the modern world.

criticism of feminism isn't criticism of women, it's criticism of male supervision ... using women to have a cheap shot at other men.

the longer men collectively decline to use their power and control to grant women their own legislature the longer these lost souls will live amongst us.

it's not as if women are going to put up a fight to remain under a crumbling patriachy.

Howler: << That you don't think it is taken as read that most men disapprove of rape means that you think that men are somehow responsible as a gender, and you see us as all the same entity >>

I've been reading this thread and the parallel one by Nina Funnell with my usual bemusement at the same old gender wars.

One thing that I've noticed is that very few - if any - of the male protagonists has expressed dismay at the Sydney Uni Facebook "Pro-Rape" group that was the instigation for both discussions.

On the basis of these discussions, at least, it would be very hard to take it as read that most male participants disapprove of rape. If they do, why haven't they expressed their disgust at the clearly and viciously misogynist actions of these college brats?

CJ,

'I've been reading this thread and the parallel one by Nina Funnell with my usual bemusement at the same old gender wars.'

They're great aren't they? I'm lovin' it!

'One thing that I've noticed is that very few - if any - of the male protagonists has expressed dismay at the Sydney Uni Facebook "Pro-Rape" group that was the instigation for both discussions.'

I haven't seen the site, as it was taken down. As far as I could gather, nobody was raping anyone, the term rape was used as a callous metaphor, and in the context of 'raping' other *male* sporting teams.

BTW: It wouldn't be 'fun' for them to pull such pranks if we didn't have the feminists salivating at the chance to use such pranks to further their agenda of painting all men in this light. They actually really love it! Like a news crew loves a natural disaster, and whoop high fives when they find an Aussie victim to report!

I really think some of the motivation is a South Park style backlash to PC sanitation of society, and a flipping of the bird to these kind of feminist opportunists. If it is, I like their style. Try this on for size girls, something to get your teeth into.

I can consistently enjoy this aspect while not condoning rape. I don't feel the need to grandstand my abhorrence of rape, as I am comfortable in the fact I've never raped anyone, and never covered up or condoned rape, and I try to remain oblivious that I am seen as a rapist just because I am male.

As usual, it's a yin/yang thing. Feminists are indebted to childish university pranks the world over. What better advertising campaign. See, see! We told you all men were bastards! Look what they do behind those closed doors, they sit around dissing us.

Only, they weren't. They were mock intimidating other male sporting teams.

Now come on all you men, stand up and denounce rape! Like all Muslims should have to denounce terrorism!