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The Forum > Article Comments > Mandatory vaccinations > Comments

Mandatory vaccinations : Comments

By Helen Lobato, published 23/12/2008

Mandatory vaccinations for health workers are likely to lead to a greater shortage of nurses.

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Agronomist

The link you provided (http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=364&a=2618) advised in the last paragraph, the following:

“As things are, the only conclusion is that we do not know if the prevalence of autistic spectrum disorders or of one or more sub-groups has risen or is still rising.

"There is evidence both for and against. Nor do we know if there are differences in rates or changes in rates in different parts of the world. We have no idea of the prevalence, past or present, in developing countries.”

…“ What foolish claims?” - (Celivia.)

Warthaug’s graph for “developing countries,” Celivia? In view of the statement above, may I reiterate that Warthaug’s a fake?

“On ethyl mercury quite a bit is known about its toxicology and behaviour.” Agronomist – please desist from misleading posters.

Ethyl mercury has a longer half-life and demethylizes – it’s converted into inorganic mercury in the brain – that much is known only. Offered in the very link you provided earlier:

“A higher percentage of the total Hg in the brain was in the form of inorganic Hg for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys (34% vs. 7%).

"Knowledge of the toxicokinetics and developmental toxicity of thimerosal is needed to afford a meaningful assessment of the developmental effects of thimerosal-containing vaccines.

"The mechanisms by which organic mercury is converted to inorganic mercury in the brain are unknown.

"There is not a consensus as to whether inorganic mercury in brain causes damage or to what extent compared to organic mercury.”

“The proportion of brain mercury that was inorganic was higher in animals exposed to thimerosal compared with methyl mercury.”

The information above makes the “consensus” on Thimerosal, which you and Celivia support, look a wee bit shaky Agronomist!

In addition, the very latest findings, by an international team of geneticists, is also intriguing:

"At the moment, we understand the genetic causes of 15 to 20 percent of autism; the remaining 80 percent remain unexplained."

Therefore, the cause of at least 80 percent of autism is not yet understood so what is your hypothesis (in keeping with your "consenus" of course) Agronomist and Celivia?

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/114642.php
Posted by dickie, Sunday, 4 January 2009 10:24:27 PM
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C L Sr, I have repeatedly stated on this thread that there are adverse reactions to vaccines, but I believe the evidence supports that the benefits of vaccination for many diseases far outweigh the risks. If you provide me with evidence from the medical literature that the opposite is the case, I will happily revise my views.

Mortality is not the only damaging effect of diseases. The fact that we can treat some diseases does not stop those diseases significantly reducing the quality of life for those who suffer from them. Prevention is always better than cure. One effect of measles on boys is brain damage. One effect of Rubella in young women is birth defects. If there were a HIV vaccine available, I would advocate its deployment. Through antiviral and other drugs we can keep people with AIDS alive, but their quality of life is much less.

The other problem are vulnerable people in society who will be severely damaged by these diseases and can’t be vaccinated – children with leukaemia for example. They rely on herd immunity for protection. Allowing every child to get the diseases naturally would mean these children would get it too. Don’t forget that smallpox was once a childhood disease. Vaccination and other medical approaches allowed its eradication.

dickie, the fact that an assessment leads to a conclusion that it is not known whether the prevalence of autism is increasing is fairly good evidence that the prevalence has not increased dramatically. Otherwise, it would be obvious that the prevalence had increased. Any real increase that may have occurred must be small.

Heritability studies of autism routinely identify large heritability components. High heritability means that genetic factors contribute most to the disease. A few genes have been identified that appear to contribute to autism. Heritability studies identify the contribution of genetics without having to know anything about the genes involved.

dickie, only the last one of those quotes came from the documents I linked to. Who is misleading posters now
Posted by Agronomist, Monday, 5 January 2009 10:21:13 AM
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argonomist, the evidence is everywhere! These toxins are damaging kids (from the vaccines). The evidence is in tests done on the effect of Thimerosal on brain tissue, the measles virus in my sons gut, the herpes virus from the chicken pox vaccine in my sons spinal fluid. The evidence is the children that have recovered thru detox. Jon Polings papers that were presented at the autism omnibus hearings. I don't blindly trust the studies from people that benefit from the vaccine protocol. Far too many docs have clearly stated that the debate isn't over.
As far as the links that you provided me, I have no problem believing that autism is triggered by genetics. I believe my son was genetically suceptable to the toxins in the vaccines. As the toxins have increased (with the vaccine schedule increase), mmore children that may have been less effected by the lower number of vaccines are now being severly effected. One thing that docs have said is that the increase in diagnosis is because kids that would've been diagnosed with schizophrenia before are now given an ASD dx, unfortnately, these diagnosis' are also on the rise!
given the papers that you linked me to, I would say that this is all the more reason to reconsider our one-size-fits-all vaccination policies that pharma and the medical associations push with no regard to the individual child.
chack out the newest MedCo study, Jon Polings papers, National Vaccine HealthCare website papers from the D.O.D. etc. Please keep an open mind. too many kids die from asthma every year...we can drastically reduce this with smarter vaccination policies and until these people start realizing this..I will advocate parents not vaccinate their children.
Posted by C L Sr, Monday, 5 January 2009 11:51:30 AM
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Agronomist

Again I request that you refrain from misleading posters. I've concluded that you are merely on this thread to win an argument at all costs or rather to ridicule those who oppose your assertions. All the quotes I attributed to you are from the links you provided.

Clearly you are dumping information on this thread without reading the contents.

Perhaps one could overlook your original sloppiness and denials, but twice? No!:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16973445
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/thimerosal.htm

How one could place such blind faith in our regulatory systems defies imagination. I could write a whole book on the health and environmental catastrophes which have occurred just this century in my own state where these departments have been responsible for placing adults and children at grave risk, even culminating in deaths and/or exposure to hazardous chemicals.

Of course our much maligned whistle blowers in the US would ruefully remind us that paramount to the culture in these regulatory agencies is “the economy stoopid!” These agencies are adept at gagging worn out and/or sick appellants – most eventually giving up, exhausted and unable to find the resources or stamina to fight a corrupt bureaucracy.

Australia has one of the highest rates of asthma in the world. Some 14 to 16 percent of children and 12 percent of adults suffer from asthma. But then of course, Australia remains the greatest pollutant emitter per capita on the planet.

In 2006, the Barrack/Newmont mine in the Eastern Goldfields of West Australia dumped nearly 8 tonnes of mercury on the men, women and children of Kalgoorlie and nearly 7 tonnes in 2005. What was dumped prior to this exercise in public relations, by the Department of Environment, no-one knows and no health agency has expressed any concern over the bioaccumulative and teratogenic impacts of mercury on human life.

Similar to Australia, American agencies (also sycophants to the big end of town,) when challenged, continue on with “business as usual,” and despite submissions by concerned, eminent experts, assure citizens that it's OK to include mercury, formaldehyde and aluminium in vaccines and medications:

http://www.autismboulder.org/pdf/ScienceSummary.pdf

contd…..
Posted by dickie, Monday, 5 January 2009 10:43:24 PM
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Dickie and CL,
There is no scientific link between asthma and vaccines or between autism and vaccines.
However, there is clear evidence that respiratory infections, such as the flu, are one of the major triggers of asthma. So it makes sense to think that an asthmatic child would be benefit from flu vaccination.

Like Agronomist, I am willing to change my mind about links between vaccines and asthma/autism, but I would have to be convinced by scientific evidence by scientists who work in the field, e.g. immunology. CL keeps saying that such evidence exists, but really, all that the antivaccinationists have come up with is anecdotal ‘evidence’, the propaganda by non-scientists such as politicians, radio show hosts and celebrities who might be great for publicity but who have no idea what they are talking about.

The whole vaccination controversy ‘argument’ is based on the premise that thimerosal in vaccines increases autism rates. There is no evidence for that, and that’s why the consensus is that thimerosal does not increase autism rates. This debate is getting a bit tedious. The thimerosal hypothesis has failed- face it!
The NNH makes vaccines one of the safest prevention treatments we have available.

If CL would look at the autism rates in his own country, he would understand that since 2002 when thimerosal was removed from USA childhood vaccines there should have been a drop in autism rates according to this premise.
Yet, this has not happened, and therefore the whole controversial hypothesis makes no sense.

Now anti-vaxers are grasping at straws by claiming that toxins in vaccines generally cause autism.
I wonder whether anti-vaxers realise that they’re wasting scientists’ precious time and money.
Time after time again scientists have debunked this unsubstantial claim. Do you really need it debunked again?
Don’t you rather see scientists spend funds on investigating and finding the real causes of autism?
Posted by Celivia, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 1:54:29 PM
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argonomist, once again you show me that you have no idea what you are talking about. In your defense, I must say...it's simply your blind belief in everything that "scientists" say. For your info, Thimerosal has not been removed from the vaccines. In fact, I have the Mercury free vaccine act exemption forms for the last three years that the Illinois Dept of Public Health has filed every december to to request the use of Thimerosal containing vaccines due to the inability of the Thimerosal free versions. The language basically states that they are unable to get the Thimerosal free vaccines from the manufacturers and they list 7 vaccines that still contain Thimerosal. Many are TCV's and some have trace amounts, that aside, when given five at a time, at what point do trace amounts add up? The manufacturers are also pushing the TC flu vaccine now that they say that the Thimerosal has been removed from the other vaccines ,amazingly the same year, disingenuous to say the least?
I am not one of those that believe that Mercury is the only cause of autism, I think that the media has perpetuated that concept, (due primarily to David Kirby's phenominaly selling book). I think that all of the toxins and virus' in the vaccines, as well as the hyper immune response that these vaccines create are a factor.
Please get your facts straight before you assume Thimerosal has been removed simply because your precious scientists say so. There's truly nothing that infuriates me more than this lie.
Posted by C L Sr, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 2:33:57 PM
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