Thanks for the 'heads-up' Helen. You're a little more fortunate than myself in having just five years before you can cease work. I still have ten to go, but if all you say is true, then it looks as though my employment as a nurse will also be short lived.

I wonder if the same compulsory vaccination will be foisted onto casual staff. I'm sure they'll be plenty of shifts going if all you say takes place.

What about the ANF? Surely they're in discussion with the Victorian Department of Health Services?

I used to think people were mad to refuse vaccination for their children and believed they were deluded, but since I've been nursing, I've heard horror stories concerning the MMR vaccines, the results of which can totally debilitating and lifelong.

Then again, is it too late for people my age to worry about a little "jab?" Back in the 60's, I forever seemed to be in a doctors surgery or health clinic getting holes punched in my arms and as far as I can tell, I haven't been affected by anything yet.

Interesting article and I'll be keeping my eye on developments closely.
Aime.

I'm generally pro-vaccination, but only if it is voluntary.

My principal concern with mandatory vaccination is that it will make hospital staff even sloppier about spreading infection. MRSA is generally spread through poor practices by doctors and nurses who are too important or busy to wash their hands properly every single time they go near a patient, even though this is known to drastically reduce cross infection. Like those plastic gloves compulsorily worn in food preparation areas, mass vaccination could give a false sense of security.

You really have to wonder about the professionalism of workers involved in the health industry who are anti-vaccination.

The reason why certain dangerous infectious diseases are rare in western countries even among the few unvaccinated dinosaurs is because the general compliance of the community, ensuring there is a safe pool of healthy people around them.

The author also misunderstands the concept of risk. The slight chance of a complication from vaccination is nothing compared with the risks of contracting the disease.

Medical treatment is science-based and there is no place in health delivery for anyone who philosophically disagrees with that. One has to wonder what in what other areas she disagrees with the health and treatment policy of her employer.

Would she also have the same lack of compliance with infection control generally if she disagreed? What about if she believed the crack-pot claims in the Net that hand cleaning is unnecessary and maybe the soaps cause cancer?

Aime, in regard to whether this will apply to casual staff, the answer is yes as my nursing agency has already alerted me to this proposal. The ANF needs to be involved as this is an issue of our rights to work.

I would like to think the majority of our health professionals have a better understanding of the benefits of vaccinations than the author. I would also hope they have a better understanding of the potential damage that can be caused by distributing such a lot of unsubstantiated rubbish that could well result in increased numbers of people, and especially children too young too be vaccinated, succumbing to life threatening diseases.

That being said I don't believe vaccination should be mandatory. I am however wondering whether it really is mandatory (the author doesn't seem to mind embellishing the facts) as the equivalent NSW legislation does provide for those who have good reason not to be vaccinated.

The sky doesn't appear to have fallen in due to the introduction of this legislation in NSW two years ago. However the adminstration of these schemes is a logistic nightmare (I was involved with this in a previous role). Not only should nurses be vaccianted in NSW but they need to be able to prove it - not many have immunisiation records going back 30-40 years which means retesting everyone for immunity before then going ahead with boosters etc. It must be costing taxpayers a fortune.

Society must learn the truth about vaccinations. For example, it has been known for over a decade that the MMR vaccine has been contaminated with retro-viral particles, reverse transcriptase and xeno retrovirus entities, such as the Avian Leukosis Virus. These retro viruses are in the same family as the HIV virus and have the very real potential of being able incorporate their DNA into the human genome of the vaccine recipient and cause cancer (to name one disease). These contaminants are also found in the flu vaccine – any vaccine, in fact, that is grown using eggs.

Now, this is extremely bad… I don’t know how else to put this, but does the public know about it? Are government regulators or watch dog agencies doing anything about it? Are vaccine makers cleaning up their act or taking any responsibility for this or potential long-term consequences?

The answer is no, no, no and no.

Why should they? Have we ever held vaccine manufacturers accountable for anything? Again the answer is no. What if they had been held accountable for infecting millions upon millions of people with the SV40 virus in the 1950’s and 60s? This is a simian virus that is now found in half Non-Hodgkin’s lymphomas and some brain cancer.

This is what happens when we, as a society, tolerate being experimented on in a very unconscious manner.

Now, health care workers, especially physicians, are amongst the most indoctrinated team players on the planet and a full on uprising is unlikely, but that is really what is called for here. It is time to say, we will not be your guinea pigs any longer - no way.... no how!

K Paul Stoller, MD, FACHM
President of the International Hyperbaric Medical Assoc
www.hyperbaricmedicalassociation.org
www.BodiesinRebellion.com

I congratulate Ms. Lobato on her grasp of the very real gaps in vaccine safety and efficacy and wonder at how she managed to keep a grasp on that one quality that seems to be so efficiently squashed out of otherwise intelligent human beings in medical schools: the capacity for independent thought and inquiry.

I did, however, as the mother of two vaccine injured children, feel a pang at Ms. Lobato's question: "Just what are we willing to do to save our jobs?"

I look at my children and wonder just how many "health care" professionals kept silent, despite awakening awareness like Ms. Lobato's, to save their jobs while our children were being so grievously injured and then callously discarded. Is it only now we can expect to hear from them to save their own skins, now that the "authorities" with the dirty needles are knocking at their own doors?

Vaccination is based on a wealth of medical science. However if anyone doubts the science, it is worthwhile reading some of studies of the opponents of vaccination before taking their ill-conceived advice:

Public opponents of vaccination: a case study.
Leask J, McIntyre P.

National Centre for Immunisation Research & Surveillance, Children's Hospital at Westmead, University of Sydney, Locked Bag 4001, Westmead 2145, Australia. juliel3@chw.edu.au

"Opposition to mass childhood vaccination is a world-wide phenomenon, particularly in industrialised countries. Unfounded claims about vaccination are perpetuated by parental lobby groups and individual spokespeople, some of whom have a medical or scientific background. This article focuses on one such spokesperson who has achieved particular notoriety. Dr. Viera Scheibner is a retired micropalaeontologist, without any formal training in health-related sciences, who tours the world claiming that vaccines are ineffective and dangerous and lead to a host of ills such as cancer and asthma. Professionals in public health or the clinical arena are from time to time called upon to publicly respond to her, or similar, claims disseminated during tours of Europe, North America or Australasia and in books and articles. Health professionals have expressed (concern) at how such spokespersons misrepresent the evidence on vaccine safety, resulting in the potential to undermine public confidence in immunisation. Media coverage, or proposed coverage, particularly of her more extreme claims, often makes health professionals engaged in immunisation feel obliged to respond. This paper describes Viera Scheibner's approach, which follows a repetitious path and is representative of that taken by other public opponents of immunisation. We conclude by suggesting how health professionals might respond in the public arena."

I’ve agreed with the author in the past on the ‘Cholesterol Screening for Children’ topic, but in this case I can’t agree.
It's quite shocking to find out that mandatory vaccinations were not already mandatory for medical staff. Wow, unbelievable!

Cornflower, great post, I can’t agree more!

I’m strongly in favour of mandatory vaccinations until I can get reliable information that tells me that unvaccinated medical staff are no risk to patients.
I find it reasonable to think that there would be certain risk when unvaccinated medical staff are in close contact with patients who may have low resistence, especially the very young or elderly.
Medical professionals may well spread the flu virus to weak patients who then will be at higher risk of developing pneumonia and even increased pneumonia deaths.

Has there been any reliable research on pneumonia (death) rates in hospitals where 100% of the staff have been vaccinated, against hospitals where most of the staff have not been vaccinated?

I doubt that this author has ever experienced a true epidemic.
If she would look at the history of outbreaks she would know that there have been many deaths from preventable childhood diseases in unvaccinated areas.

I find it VERY alarming that a tiny minority of medical professionals feel they should contribute to the scare-mongering of the anti-vaxers brigade.
I don’t know what the ulterior motive of this nurse is, but I saw in the past that doctors who contribute to this anti-vax nonsense had a vested interest by offering people unproven, alternative medicine (read: quackery).

Dr Stoller, so FACHM means that you are Fellow of the American College of Hyperbaric Medicine?
Is Hyperbolic Medicine is an evidence based treatment?
And which university did you attend to gain your MD qualification?

As for staff shortage: if all staff were vaccinated they would need less time off due to the flu.

Vaccinating health care workers helps protect patients from some common diseases (eg. rubella, influenza) at a time when they are most at risk (unborn or premature babies, the elderly or those undertaking chemotherapy for example) but it also protects the nurses themselves. Many vaccinated nurses have been reassured that they are not at risk of contracting Hepatitis following a needlestick or sharps injury. The transmission rate of Hep B and Hep C through needlesticks is significant. Does the author really believe surgical gloves would be adequate to protect against needlstick injuries? My experience is that nurses are enthusiastic about getting free vaccinations for this reason.

As the majority of health care workers actually care about their patients health as well as their own I can't believe there will be too much opposition to this policy - apart from those who have to do the paperwork. As for the ones who either don't care or are so misinformed as to confuse indoctrination with education then we could probably do without them in the health sector anyhow.

There is no conspiracy and those who are involved in causing unfounded health scares should hold themselves responsible for the refusal in some developing countries to vaccinate their children against killer diesases such as polio.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4862012.stm

On the other hand the more responsible majority can be reassured that vaccination is saving millions of lives.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1964966.stm

If there is any real evidence in reputable journals of a significant risk that has not been properly investigated and then refuted by evidence based research then I would be interested to read it. As far as I am aware nearly all cases of serious adverse affects have been found to be just coincidental. Just because something has been reported as a possible adverse effect does not prove a cause and effect.

It is sad that medical professionals can be so ignorant. The real threat in this story is the ignorant and potentially dangerous advice being given by Lobato, an “independent health researcher”. I suggest Ms Lobato should get more of her information about vaccines from reputable medical sources rather than from anti-vaccine conspiracy websites. Some obvious errors:

1) There is no mercury in Australian vaccines http://www.ncirs.usyd.edu.au/facts/f-thiomersal.html .
2) Vaccines are not primarily responsible for auto-immune diseases. The association of auto-immune diseases is 10 to 20 times more common with a bout of infections disease than it is with vaccination. http://image.thelancet.com/extras/02art9340web.pdf
3) Vaccines do not ‘suppress’ the outward signs of illness. They prime the immune system to stop the illness taking hold in the first place.
4) There have not been 17-20 deaths from Gardasil in the US. There have been deaths reported after the vaccine was given, but these are all from causes not associated with the vaccine http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaers/gardasil.htm There have been over 30 million young women treated with Gardasil in the US, the small number of deaths following vaccination is probably not at a higher frequency than for the common population. In contrast, more than 20,000 women are diagnosed each year with cancers caused by HPV http://www.cdc.gov/std/HPV/STDFact-HPV.htm and 5000 deaths each year.

One of the most important actions of vaccination is that herd immunity to infectious diseases can help protect some of the most vulnerable people in our society. Those with medical conditions that do not allow them the protection of vaccination. Those like Ms Lobato who argue against vaccination are putting these vulnerable members of society at risk.

Ms. Lobato should be ashamed of writing such a dangerous anti-vaccine article and should be ashamed of her ignorance as well.

A collaborative program between the CDC and the US Department of Defense says that multiple vaccines may not be safe for everyone (at least in adults being inoculated for military service).

Most health care workers are adults so this is relevant.

“We have preliminary findings from one of our many on-going research studies that suggest a relationship between adverse events and multiple vaccinations exist. These findings will require validation, but heighten our concern for the current clinical practice of multiple vaccinations.”

That rather remarkable statement came from US Army Colonel Renata J. M. Engler, MD, director of the Vaccine Healthcare Centers Network (VHCN) a “collaborative network” of the Defense Department - and the CDC.

She went on to say:

“The standard of care (ie, when mixing vaccines) is to minimize drug exposures because of the recognition that the more drugs being used, the greater the chance of a reaction and potentially a serious adverse event.”

Col. Engler’s statements were included in a November 26 letter (http://www.ageofautism.com/files/kirby_2008_1126_walter_reed_vaccine_healthcare_centers_network_2.pdf) to Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-NY). Maloney had written to inquire (http://www.ageofautism.com/files/kirby_2008_0916_letter_to_vhc_final_2.pdf) about a 2007 VHCN presentation suggesting that 1-2 percent of all service members were suffering serious adverse effects from their shots.

VHCN and CDC officials “estimate that between 1 and 2 percent of immunized individuals may experience severe adverse events, which could result in disability or death. Some of these events may occur coincidentally following immunization, while others may truly be caused by immunization."

VHCN Power Point presentation (http://www.ageofautism.com/files/kirbymilvax1.ppt).

The slides suggest that among active duty and reserve service members, up to 48,000 individuals may have sustained serious vaccine injuries which might need to be classified as "casualties,” and may require teaching "new skills" to some of those injured.

So, giving multiple vaccines to adults is not as black and white as the very angry posts to this forum make it seem. There will, in all likelihood, be collateral damage. Australia should disclose what is known to health care workers (not just info from "pro-vaccine" websites) and be prepared to take care of the "coincidental" casualties.

Dr. Stoller, I don’t think I, or anyone else on this forum, is saying there are no negative impacts of vaccines. Just like any other medical intervention, vaccines may have side effects. However, a very large body of work has shown that the benefits from vaccines greatly outweigh the costs. Not only that, herd immunity helps to protect the vulnerable in our community.

My complaint is not that Ms. Lobato is concerned about a policy of mandatory vaccination for health workers, but that Ms. Lobato making false and malicious statements about vaccine safety to support her case.

Should you truly be interested in vaccination in Australia, you can read about vaccine safety in Australia at these sites.

http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/
http://www.health.sa.gov.au/pehs/Immunisation/2008-P3-vaccine-safety.pdf

I respect what you have to say and I defend your right to say it as the expression goes, but in truth, vaccine science is not evidence based, in the sense that vaccine safety is done on a very small number of individuals who are followed for a very short and finite period of time and possible long term problems are dismissed. Short term problems are coincidence.

Safety is part of vaccine science and it has been swept under the rug, so to say. Vaccine science is sloppy and has become, in many respects, a religion.

In the example of the MMR vaccine I gave in my first post, there is nothing safe about having reverse transciptase and xeno retroviral contamination in those vaccines. You can list all the government supported websites you like. This is a serious health hazard.

The Emperor has no clothes... damn it

I share Helen Lobato’s concerns. There is a myriad of evidence supporting her assertions. Nevertheless, I do see the need for “herd” immunisation, however, the evidence reveals that there are far too many people reacting adversely to vaccines and recipients are entitled to first question the safety and efficacy of vaccines prior to immunisation.

Already alarm bells are ringing over Gardasil (which prevents cervical cancer) where hundreds of Australian girls have suffered severe reactions. In the US more than 2220 reports were lodged in 12 months, including controversial reports of more than seven deaths.

The Therapeutic Goods Association Australia refused to reveal detailed results, however, it said Gardasil was monitored by the US FDA and Centres for Disease Control, and in Australia by the Adverse Drug Reaction Advisory Committee, the Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation and the National Immunisation Committee.

Nevertheless, it appears that drug manufacturer, Mercke’s objective was to market Gardasil ASAP when they failed to research the potential health impacts of injecting this vaccine in combination with others:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/63586.php

Many of us would be aware that last year, academics from UWA, found all governments in Australia (state and commonwealth,) over a five year period, had suppressed vital health information to which the public is entitled.

It is an ignominious fact that the Australian governments have been assuring us for decades that the chemicals and drugs available in this country are safe and efficient. History has proven otherwise.

http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/index.php?p=1534

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=5620282&page=1

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/v-kaiser.htm

"As for staff shortage: if all staff were vaccinated they would need less time off due to the flu."

Celivia

My observations tell me it doesn't work that way. I know many people who have flu injections each year. Clearly the vaccine must be for a specific strain as several of those vaccinated still contract another flu.

BTW, a bit of trivia and to the best of my knowledge, neither my brother or I have ever had a childhood vaccination, though I did have a tetanus vaccine in my thirties.

“1) There is no mercury in Australian vaccines”

That is incorrect Agronomist. In the link you provided you will find the following advice, which I have truncated here, on vaccines for use in Australia and which contain thiomersal – a mercury based preservative and the one which has created so much controversy:

Table 2: Vaccines available in Australia that contain thiomersal
Vaccine:

Combined diphtheria and tetanus vaccine

Adult diphtheria and tetanus vaccine

Diphtheria vaccine

Hepatitis B

*Influenza vaccines

Japanese encephalitis vaccine

Q fever vaccine

*Thiomersal-free influenza vaccines are listed in Table 1

Dickie,

Flu vaccine.
You’re correct to say that the effectiveness of the flu vaccine can vary. But even if the flu vaccine would be only about 60% effective vaccination is still worthwhile because the incidences of flu as well as flu-related complications will be cut down. Some of these complications can be fatal. Herd immunity is important especially in a hospital environment.

Thimerosal.
Nothing suggests that thimerosal is damaging.

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/thiomersal/statement_jul2006/en/index.html
” The Global Advisory Committee on Vaccine Safety concludes that there is no evidence of toxicity in infants, children or adults exposed to thiomersal (containing ethyl mercury) in vaccines.”

” On the basis of the foregoing, the GACVS concluded that the most recent pharmacokinetic and developmental studies do not support concerns over the safety of thiomersal (ethyl mercury) in vaccines. The Committee concluded, and advises accordingly, that there is no reason on grounds of safety to change current immunization practices with thiomersal-containing vaccines, as the risks are unproven.”

Childhood diseases.
Some of the childhood vaccinations might not have been developed yet when you and your brother were children. Measles, Mumps and Rubella, for example.
Luckily the deaths caused by these childhood diseases have been significantly reduced. People who oppose these vaccinations for their children would not take this risk if they lived in Africa several years ago where no herd immunity existed. I remind these parents that the health of their children relies on the immunity of OTHERS around them.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2007/pr62/en/index.html
”Measles deaths in Africa fell by 91% between 2000 and 2006, from an estimated 396 000 to 36 000”

”The progress was announced today by the founding partners of the Measles Initiative: the American Red Cross, UNICEF, the United Nations Foundation, the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and WHO.”

” The significant decline in measles deaths in Africa was made possible by the firm commitment of national governments to fully implement the measles reduction strategy, which includes vaccinating all children against measles before their first birthday via routine health services and providing a second opportunity for measles vaccination through mass vaccination campaigns.”

What worries me most about this article and thread is that there are apparently nurses - and at least one doctor - working in the Australian health system who subscribe to the anti-vaccination hysteria promoted by various frootloop websites. That some health professionals reject the overwhelming public health benefits of vaccination programs in favour of unproven folk theories about their supposed dangers is an indication to me that they are unsuitable to be employed in a biomedical capacity.

While of course individuals have every right to believe whatever rot they wish, and to accept or reject public health intitiatives such as vaccination, it seems to me that those who act against their biomedical education and training are also rejecting the objective professionalism that is required of practitioners in a contemporary public health system. We need more doctors and nurses, but not those who reject biomedicine in favour of mumbo-jumbo.

Don't be worried that there has never been a study done on the cumulative effect of so many vaccines with toxic ingredients.

The US CDC, which is accountable to no one and where Pharma payola is ever present, says vaccines are safe.

True, the former head of the US National Institutes of Health, Dr. Bernadine Healy challenges the credibility of the CDC and admonished officials for refusing to investigate a susceptible subgroup of children who unable to eliminate the toxins in vaccines. This admission that there hasn't been enough research and that epidemiological studies are not proof is a major step toward public recognition about what's happened to our children.

Dr. Healy said that officials have been too quick to dismiss a link between vaccines and autism without ever studying the group that got sick. There never have been studies done on the kids that developed symptoms of autism within a few weeks of being vaccinated. She furthermore pointed out that the Institute of Medicine which produced the cumulative study on vaccines and autism in 2004 refused to 'pursue susceptibility groups.' In other words, they didn't want to find any evidence that linked vaccines to autism. She left us with the haunting statement: 'The question has not been answered.'

CBS News Exclusive: Former Head Of NIH Says Government Too Quick To Dismiss Possible Link
SEE VIDEO http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/12/cbsnews_investigates/main4086809.shtml

I would say she has been visiting too many antivaccine websites.

And so what if the mercury-based vaccine preservative thimerosal is in more than the flu vaccine. This July story from ABC-7 WXYZ-TV Detroit: Some Vaccines Still Contain Mercury, shows that children are still exposed to mercury in their shots. http://www.wxyz.com/content/news/investigators/story.aspx?content_id=599da2da-f75e-4844-952e-1241f33b57fd

"The truth is there's still as much as ever in 11 vaccines including most flu vaccines injected into pregnant women and kids, and some of them younger than 9 get two doses in a season. And also high levels of mercury from Thimerosal in tetanus shots and the boosters routinely injected into 11-year-olds and also in some meningitis and diphtheria-tetanus formulas, too.

But I forgot... this is all "mumbo-jumbo."

Let this video by an expert refresh your memory, Stoller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEQB8decrxE&feature=channel_page

"In this episode I address the question "is autism is caused by vaccination" and look at the scientific evidence that says "yes" and "no". I refer to a series of papers in this video - the links for these papers can be found below.

For the sake of simplicity I have redrawn all graphs so that they are easily understood. I have made every effort to keep them as accurate as possible.

Wakefield Paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/ent...

Wakefield Retraction:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/ent...

Fombonne Paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/ent...

Japan MMR Paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/ent...

Autism gene found in Amish Paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/ent...

Also, for those of you who believe that the Amish, and other anabaptist sects (all of whom avoid vaccination), I'd like for you to explain why it is that people who supposedly don't get autism have an autism support network:
http://www.adnetonline.org/Informatio...

Video's in this series:
Part I: How the immune response and vaccines work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_T0nJ...

Search engines:
Pubmed:
http://www.pubmed.gov

Google Scholar:
http://scholar.google.com "

Dr. Stoller, you obviously know what you are talking about. I write for Autism File Magazine (out of the U.K.) and am the editor of their website. I also have a raio show (webcast) on autism one radio (www.autismone.org/radio) called Linderman Live. I have covered this NSW story on my show. The general public has no idea the damage that is being done via vaccines and this crap about vaccines being responsable for the irradication of disease is one huge lie. I would love for you to listen to my show and tell me what you think...it's rather hard hitting and "in your face" but I don't hold back when it comes to telling the truth. My son is autistic and was vaccine injured at 20 months of age.
If every post like yours educates one more soul, you're doing your part!

Gee Celivia – the prompts to the information you provided appear rather complex and time-consuming for this semi-literate computer operator. Nevertheless, I inadvertently came across the following link which attracted my attention:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?highlight=thiomersal&rid=hstat6.section.2094

I doubt whether anyone is lobbying to ban herd immunisation, however, that’s easily said by one who has not been stricken by a debilitating reaction to vaccines.

My cautious approach to any government advice is historic. Let’s not forget that the anaesthetic, chloroform, which induces liver and kidney tumours, was in use for well over a century before it was banned. Presently prescription drugs are killing thousands of people around the planet yet they are still prescribed and manufacturers again, remain in denial. So shall we remain indifferent to these avoidable tragedies – merely collateral damage for the greater good?

Some 67% of antibiotics in Australia are fed to animals with impunity, animals which we then consume. Antibiotic resistant bacterial strains are an alarming legacy and one which is of great concern to health professionals around the world. Where are our health departments and those with vested interests? Why is it only we who are heeding the overwhelming evidence?

The teratogen, thalidomide left some 10,000 victims in Africa and Europe, armless and/or legless, before that drug too was banned though it appears it’s back doing good for other diseases (hopefully!) Victims of thalidomide have also given birth to equally afflicted offspring.

We have more recently – Vioxx, another global killer and again, manufactured by the drug company in question – Merck, who is reported to have profited some $2.5 billion from the sales of Vioxx.

http://www.mynippon.com/vioxx/2005/01/vioxx-death-estimate-revised-upwards.html

Many doctors do not have their own children vaccinated - (secret!) Why?

Autism is now a public health crisis but there are no arms or legs missing to incite a citizens’ revolt - only an invisible brain!

Why does austism affect boys four times more than girls?

Several vaccines are now thimerosal-free. What were the reasons for removing mercury? And why was it not removed from all vaccines?

Condescending, evasive jabberwonky responses from health department officials are not welcome.

Questions should be asked regarding the safety of any medical treatment. This is why we and other countries have regulatory bodies and peer reviewed research and why information is available publicly. I encourage these sort of questions. I don't believe any Company wants to risk their whole business by producing something that will ruin their reputation and result in multimillion dollar lawsuits.

The issue I have is that when concerns are thoroughly investigated by experts in their field from around the world, the results of these investigations are then conveniently ignored by the sceptics who continue to cite anecdotal reports as 'evidence' and post them on websites. The nurse for example who has apparently 'observed' first hand the serious consequences of MMR vaccine - was this based on any scientific study or just complete coincidence? Dickie tells us that many doctors don't vaccinate their children - what is your evidence for this and what numbers are you talking about? - if you don't really know then don't state it as fact.

People with sick children join support groups hoping to understand their situation better and will latch onto whatever information they come across that makes them feel better. If you want to ask questions then by all means do so - but make sure it is based on objective and current research material. Selective reporting and outright misrepresentation just makes you look ignorant and doesn't help your cause at all. Unless of course the cause is to scaremonger.

People's perspective will be determined by their experience. I have not personally met anyone who has been seriously affected by a vaccine. I have however met two people who have been permanently brain damaged following exposure to vaccine preventable diseases. It has been shown beyond doubt that mass vaccination for many diseases has benefits that by far outweigh the possible costs to a very small number. It would be horrible if your child was one of these. Hopefully though we will be able to reduce those costs to zero with more research. So keep asking questions - just do it responsibly.

Dickie, yes you are correct that thimerosol is still used in adult vaccines in Australia. I should have said there was none in children’s vaccines, which I thought was where the concern lay. I got so cranky about this anti-vaccine rhetoric that I wrote in a hurry and left the word children's out.

I repeat, I am not saying that vaccinations are not without danger of side effects, but there is plenty of evidence that the benefits of vaccination far outweigh the dangers. Unfortunately, vaccination tends to be a victim of its own success. Most people no longer remember devastating smallpox or measles epidemics and have become complacent.

If you have not had many vaccinations as a child, you have indeed benefitted from the herd immunity in not contracting some dangerous childhood diseases. Unfortunately, too many people forgoing immunisation leads to breakdown in herd immunity. Whooping cough is now endemic in Boulder, Colorado due to too many parents shunning vaccination. Likewise, measles is on the rise in the UK following the groundless MMR scare. Far more importantly, herd immunity protects those who can’t safely be vaccinated, such as people who have allergic reactions to vaccines or people being treated for cancer. Choosing not to be vaccinated shifts the disease risk on to these and other vulnerable members of the community and is, in my opinion, selfish.

In the US, the CDC decided to direct vaccine manufacturers to remove thimerosol from children’s vaccines, not because there was any evidence of harm, but because the public concern over thimerosol might lead to a reduction in vaccinations, reducing the herd immunity.

Agronomist

Thimerosal is still contained in infant hepatitis B vaccines. In addition, the Commonwealth NCIRS advises that thimerosal was removed from other infant vaccines “to reduce exposure in very small premature babies with low body weight in whom there was a theoretical risk that the intake of mercury from repeated doses of thiomersal-containing vaccines could have been high, etcetera.” Their admission does not acknowledge “public concerns” as a reason for removing thimerosal as you claim.

http://www.ncirs.usyd.edu.au/facts/f-thiomersal.html#6

Sajo

You’ve now wasted my time and as a result of your ignorance, which you attribute to others, I reiterate the information (admissions?) I had already provided:

“In 1969, three vaccines against rubella were licensed for use in the United States: HPV-77:DE-5 (from duck embryo), HPV-77:DK-12 (from dog kidney), and Cendehill strains (from rabbit kidney).

"HPV-77:DK-12 was withdrawn from the market due to a high rate of associated joint problems.

"In 1979, all strains were discontinued with the introduction of RA 27/3 (from human diploid fibroblast) which is still currently used. The whole-cell pertussis vaccine was used from its introduction in the 1930's until 1991 unchanged.

“Concerns about adverse systemic reactions such as convulsions, acute encephalopathy, and lasting brain damage led scientists to develop the acellular pertussis vaccine, which was licensed for use in 1991.

"Adverse events such as convulsions, persistent crying, and hypotonic hyporesponsive episodes occurred at a higher rate among infants vaccinated with the whole cell vaccine than with the acellular vaccine.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?highlight=thiomersal&rid=hstat6.section.2094

“Convulsions, acute encephalopathy and lasting brain damage” concerns over some 60 years sajo?

For ten years, on a daily basis, I was responsible for tending to the ailments, prangs and spills of some 500 male students. Many of the parents, over a decade, were doctors and from the mouths of their babes comes truth. How many doctors is confidential and is not your business sajo. This thread is not a royal commission.

That you have not met anyone damaged by a vaccine is like saying you’ve not met anyone stricken with cancer from exposure to industrial benzene, methylmercury or POPs - difficult to prove and how the perpetrators rejoice!

Hi Dickie,
Well, like Sajo, I was puzzled, too, why you said that many doctors don’t vaccinate their own children.
It’s a bit like the claim of creationists that many scientists don’t believe in evolution when in reality this claim is based on a lie because only a handful of scientists don’t believe in evolution and of those none are biologists.

Doctors (are supposed to) know about the Number Needed to Harm so that’s why I thought that it would be unlikely that many doctors don’t vaccinate their own children. I came across this article and perhaps this is where the rumour came from.

http://www.cure-guide.com/Natural_Health_Newsletter/Doctors_Decline_Vaccines/doctors_decline_vaccines.html

“Nonpediatricians were twice as likely as pediatricians to deviate, for their own child, from the recommended schedule. Pediatricians were more likely to give Hib, measles, mumps, and hepatitis B vaccines to their own children than nonpediatrician parents.”
I guess pediatricians know better about the risk to unvaccinated children than general practitioners.

Have you looked at that radio link posted by CL? Did you see that people like Jenny McKarty are the scaremongers who get to speak on that radio program?
If you delve a little bit deeper you’ll find that McKarty takes her autistic son to a quack who sells snake oils (homeopathic ‘remedies’ etc) to people to give to their children and while some of his advice is reasonable, such as prevention, hygiene, he also utters similar nonsense as the infamous homeopath, Wakefield. Don’t start me on Wakefield!
If there were proof that homeopathy and other snake oils worked it would cease to be classed as ‘alternative medicine’ and be fitted in with orthodox medicine.

If it weren’t so tragic it would be quite funny that this ‘pediatrician’ (Jay Gordon) of McKarty’s son does sometimes vaccinate children against polio when their parents plan to take them to endemic countries.
Why the hell does he think endemic countries are endemic?

Please just look at the video that I linked to at the top of my previous post about the non-link between autism and vaccines.

The following information is worth a read for those who are interested in current evidence based scientific research and don't have a pathological mistrust of anything that comes from the experts.
http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/2A6F1217513F4E59CA25719D001833F8/$File/myths-4th-edition.pdf

Information on the amount of thimerosol and associated risks in childhood vaccines can be found here:

http://www.ncirs.usyd.edu.au/facts/thiomersal.pdf

celivia, autismone is not a fear mongering web site (nor is jenny McCARTHY). as far as "the snake oil salesman" that you reference that treated Jenny's child, have you taken the time to notice that evan now no longer has the diagnosis of autism? 4000 plus years of homeopathy and less than 400 years of "traditional" profit driven medicine? who are the snake oil salesmen?
the CoMed study that just came out does the research and shows the mercury toxicity of autistic children ( my son did the UPPA test from Dr. Nataf in Paris). The animal trials study (with macaque monkeys) was just introduced in London this past spring and is soon to be published in a peer reviewed journal. This study by Dr. Burbacher used the vaccine schedule from the nineties in the U.S. when the vaccine rate and the autism rate jumped exponentially, the macaques given the TCV's exhibited signs of autistic behavior, the others did not.
Just as Dr. Healy (former dir. of the NIH) stated , they won't do the studies because they're afraid of what they'll find. Chicago Home First Clinics has 20,000 families in their clinic (35,000 children). 98% of them are 100% unvaccinated...they have 5% of the asthma rate of their vaccinated peers in Chicago and the clinic has two autistic children...both were vaccinated prior to becoming patients. If the powers that be want to shut people like me up, I would suggest finally doing the vaxx'd / unvaxx'd study.
The science is on our side and the proof, to me personally, is watching a perfectly developing child that was walking and talking turn very sick mere days after 9 vaccines.
You really should listen to the show before you make a judgement, but then again, you seem as if you've already made up your mind. I'm on the air live from 11am - 12 pm EST in the US. Give it a shot. 2009 is going to surprise a lot of people in the "scientific" community.
Have a happy new year!

C L Sr, if you don’t mind me saying so your last post makes you look like an ignoramus or deluded or both. A little bit of research tells me that homeopathy was invented by one Samuel Hahnemann in 1796, making it according to my calculations just over 200 years old. Unlike evidence-based medicine, homeopathy has not changed in the intervening 212 years and ignores all discoveries since, such as Avogadro’s number, germ theory, genetics, and molecular biology to name a few. http://www.hpathy.com/Status/homeopathyhistory.asp

The trials with macaque monkeys, did not show vaccinations caused autism in monkeys. In fact they showed very little. They were also co-authored by Andrew Wakefield, who is being investigated in the UK for unethical conducting invasive medical procedures on young children. Wakefield had a vested interest in finding a link between autism and vaccines, because he was being paid by a law firm to find such a link. http://briandeer.com/wakefield/gmc-notice.htm http://www.gmcpressoffice.org.uk/apps/news/events/index.php?month=1&year=2009#

The vax/unvax study has been done in Denmark. More correctly it is a thimerosal/no thimerosal study. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/112/3/604 Figure 1 should clinch it for you.

argronomist, when I was referencing homeopathy I wasn't talking about what was set into place in the 1700's. Do you really think that this was just "thrown together" in the course of a couple of weeks? Homeopathy is derived from eastern and western medicine from centuries prior to the actual "homeopathic" ways.
I've interviewed Dr. Wakefield and have followed the witch hunt extensively. He's being investigated for his "conflict of interest" regarding the law firm ties, and the BMC isn't doing so well right now in the case. The original head of the BMC's case had to step down prior to the onset due to his own conflict of interest and the man in charge now is having to step down because of his own conflict of interest. It seems that one should'nt own shares in the pharmaceutical industry when you're supposed to be unbiased in a case like wakefields. Besides that, forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't there a certain belief in England that one gets to present his case and let the evidence speak for himself before you start lighting the proverbial fire underneath him? The one thing that andy stated to me was that the biggest mistake the BMC made was bringing these charges against him, simply because he now has access to documents that he would have never had access to before (for his defense) and not only will he be exonerated, but the BMC and pharma are going to wish they'd never persued this.

C L Sr, the central components of homeopathy are “the law of similars”, dilution and succussion. Hahnemann came to the law of similars through testing the effect of cinchona bark and noticed it produced similar symptoms in high concentration to malaria. There is nothing in western folk medicine (or I believe in Eastern folk medicine) that substantially uses any of these ideas. The only preceding ideas drawn on by Hahnemann were vitalism and miasms. Hahnemann put his ideas together over some 40 years. It doesn’t make them any more correct.

As to Dr. Wakefield, he is being investigated for:

1. Undertaking research without proper ethics approval
2. Failing to conduct research in accordance with his ethics approval
3. Conducting clinical procedures that were not clinically indicated
4. Inaccurately claiming the investigations as conducted were approved by the ethics committee
5. Dishonest and misleading conduct in relation to research funds
6. Ordering investigations on children contrary to his honorary position
7. Failing to disclose conflicts of interest
8. acted unethically and abused his position of trust as a medical practitioner by taking blood from children at a birthday party to use for research purposes without ethics committee approval, in an inappropriate social setting, and whilst offering financial inducement.

Now some of these points are quite clear. Either Wakefield did what was in the ethics approval or did what was written in the paper in Lancet. Perhaps he didn’t do what was written in the paper? Most of his co-authors have disowned the paper claiming that Wakefield lied to them

argonomist, all that you have stated is very easily googled and I am well aware of it. That doesn't change the fact that homeopathy and "natural " medicine uses many remedies from all over and from many centuries. I agree that this doesn't make it right, but then again , simply stating that "modern" medicine is based in science doesn't make it right either.
As far as wakefield goes, let the BMC have their go at him, I truly feel he will be vindicated.
The Denmark study that you referenced earlier is the biggest piece of junk science around. Had you done your homework, you would have realized that the U.S. Senate had INDEPENDANT researchers look into their findings and the Director of the CDC just had to apologize to the House Ways and Means Committee for continuing to reference it in their defense of vaccines.
This may be a big joke to those of you out there that haven't had children that have been the pharmaceutical companies colateral damage, but to me, this is much more.
to think that OTC medicines have certain subsets of people that are adversely affected and then to set up vaccines as "the Gospel" is what is wrong with this debate. we need to do things safer and they're not! Simple as that!

Sajo – thank you for the NCIRS link but again, that link had already been provided on this thread.

Methyl mercury has some 30 years research behind it, however, there remains very little information on the effects of ethyl mercury.

A collaborative meeting on Health and the Environment in Washington was held at Antioch University in Seattle during 2005. Stakeholders included representatives from public health departments, nursing associations, breast cancer committees, mercury awareness, ecogenetic and biotech experts etcetera.

Tom Burbacher, PhD, Research Associate Professor, University of Washington has been involved with mercury investigations for over 20 years at UW and advised there is very little information on Thimerosal (ethyl mercury,) or the effects of this form of mercury.

However, he also advised that the good news is that ethyl mercury clears faster than methyl mercury from the body. The bad news is that ethyl mercury does not clear as quickly from the brain as methyl mercury and it demethylizes – it is converted into inorganic mercury. This inorganic form has a half-life of years, and there is some evidence to show that inorganic mercury causes inflammation of microglia cells in the brain.

Stephanie Cave is on the Clinical Faculty of Louisiana State University Medical School, and since 1996 has treated over 2,300 children with autistic spectrum disorder. She advises that ethyl mercury from vaccines has exceeded WHO, EPA, FDA, and the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) limits for exposure. The limits for an average 5 kg child ranged from 0.5 mcg/day for the EPA and FDA, to 1.5 mcg/day for ATSDR and 16.5 mcg/week for WHO.

The administration of the 2-month schedule for the average child was DTaP, Hib, Hep B is 62.5 mcg, or 125 times the safe limits set by government agencies.

Continued.....

contd.....

Agent Orange was supplied to the US for use as a defoliant during the Vietnam war. Monsanto knew of the serious health impacts in the 60s but continued to supply the US military. Agent Orange (2,4,5-T) is classified by most government agencies as a mutagen, carcinogen and teratogen.

Grandchildren of the Vietnamese sprayed with AO are being born with serious illnesses including hideous deformities. Do we now label this disease as "genetic?"

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0401/pjg33.html

Mercury directly binds and alters the conformation of DNA and RNA. It is a carcinogen, mutagen and teratogen. It bioconcentrates and biomagnifies. Professor burbacher advises that ethyl mercury exposures are in utero (prenatal) and the thimerosal exposures are postnatal.

But can we assume that the parents of autistic children were also vaccinated with ethyl mercury? Have tests been performed on pregnant women for ethyl mercury due to the accumulation in the brain and the lengthy half life of this metal and the potential ramifications of the additional ethyl mercury administered to the progeny ?

Or should we ponder on the following paper:

http://209.85.175.132/search?q=cache:qy_0mz6jcnQJ:www.jpands.org/vol11no1/geier.pdf+%22Early+Downward+Trends+in+Neurodevelopmental+Disorders+Following+Removal+of+Thimerosal-Containing+Vaccines.%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au

Celivia

I suggest you take Warthaug’s claims with a grain of salt – particularly about the Amish who are well known for their propensity to marry their blood relations.

When a researcher dumps all childhood neurological disorders into one bucket and labels it “Autism” – wow – that’s impressive!

Please provide evidence to support this fool’s assertions and more particularly, his claims that India has “poor levels of vaccination:”

http://www.whoindia.org/en/Section6/Section284/Section286_506.htm

http://www.springerlink.com/content/07400r410413215w/

C L Sr, changing the goalposts now? I agree that “natural” medicine, as defined by many, uses folk medicine recipes, but your original argument was <<4000 plus years of homeopathy>>. Homeopathy is not equivalent to “natural” medicine. Modern medicine is evidence-based and uses the scientific method. That means there is evidence from well-conducted studies that the interventions work on the diseases

C L. Sr <<the Director of the CDC just had to apologize to the House Ways and Means Committee for continuing to reference it in their defense of vaccines>>

Didn’t happen.

dickie, the Geiers’ paper incorrectly used the VEARS databases and made correlations between data that were untenable because of the way the data were reported. In addition, Mark Geier has been criticised over whether he had proper permission to conduct another study and also over his performance as an expert witness.

http://www.casewatch.org/fdawarning/rsch/geier.shtml
http://www.casewatch.org/civil/geier.shtml
http://www.casewatch.org/fdawarning/rsch/geierk.shtml

So, no it is probably not worth pondering this paper, because the approach is flawed and the Geier’s are not above unethical behaviour.

On ethyl mercury quite a bit is known about its toxicology and behaviour. It is removed quickly from the body. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16973445 http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/121/2/e208 http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/thiomersal/statement_jul2006/en/index.html
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/thimerosal.htm

argonomist...sorry but your argument is idiocy. inorganic mercury does not leave the body sooner than organic mercury. to suggest so in this argument is ridiculous. the science is soon to come that will make your claims the ignorant rantings of idiots.

Dickie,
Don’t be so quick to call that expert, Warthaug, an idiot. He is merely refuting the anti-vaxers’ false claim that there is no autism among the Amish.

And, if you had listened you would’ve heard him say that African countries, Pakistan and India at least HISTORICALLY used to have pretty poor rates of vaccination in their rural areas.

His point that you conveniently ignore is that regardless of vaccination rates of any nation or area, the autism rates don’t change- they remain constant at about 1 in 160.
This answers your question, “But can we assume that the parents of autistic children were also vaccinated with ethyl mercury?”

You cannot intelligibly refute the statistics that Warthaug shows on his video because they are the facts.
How do you explain that the autism rates in Japan did NOT decline when children were not vaccinated? Forget about the ‘vaccinated parents’ argument. Look at historical vaccination rates
LOL, the autism rate even slightly increased when the Japanese children were not vaccinated!

ALL findings have ruled out the link between autism and thimeresol. I don’t think I’ll continue a nonsensical debate about a link between autism and vaccination because there is no reason at all to believe that there is one.

CL,
you said, “argonomist...sorry but your argument is idiocy. inorganic mercury does not leave the body sooner than organic mercury. to suggest so in this argument is ridiculous.”
I think you are a little confused about the difference between organic and inorganic mercury.
AGRONOMIST said that ETHYL mercury is removed quickly from the body.
As you can gather from the information sites, thimerosal is an organic compound containing ethylmercury.

Wakefield is a laugh. There wasn’t even a toxin identified in his so-called cause of intestinal or brain damage. No toxin, no link!

As for homeopathy, this is very entertaining truth:
James Randi explains homeopathy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U
Enjoy!

celevia, according to testimony supplied by Dr. Kinsbornne in Wash. D.C. in May, 2008 : " TCV's are sources of inorganic mercury (hg++) , which is the breakdown product when TCV's breakdown and accumulate in the brain".
I really don't get the debate here anyway...it's ridiculous. Only the most ignorant person can state that there isn't a sub set of children that can be affected by the toxins and hyper immune responses to multiple vaccines. Almost 2,000,000,000 dollars has been handed out to the families of children affected in the last two decades in America alone. Thimerosal is a poison that requires abatement if spilled in a U.S. Military lab, yet we inject it into our children!The debate is over...Hannah Polings autism was caused or triggered by the 9 vaccines that she recieved. I think the emphasis now should be on these freaks that think that a one-size-fits-all vaccine protocol is still the way to go , with no deviation from the protocol. That's true ignorance...

Celivia

Since you cannot provide any evidence to support the foolish Warthurg’s claims , I am astonished that you presume: “You cannot intelligibly refute the statistics that Warthaug shows on his video because they are the facts.” What facts Celivia?

The study of the Amish, Mennonites, and Hasidic Jews showed that 'members of these groups tend to have ancestors who came from the same geographic region, live in isolated populations, and intermarry, allowing recessive genetic traits to emerge in their offspring.’ This study has absolutely nothing to do with any potential impacts on human health from ethyl mercury. Warthurg’s misuse of this paper, the Japanese one and his fallacious graph are unethical if not fraudulent:

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Neurology/Seizures/2954

Anybody who believes that cancer is caused only from exposure to high levels of radiation or that gross deformities in the newborn are caused only by exposure to 2,4,5-T, or that psychological disorders in the young are only caused by a recessive gene is living in La La Land.

“…Pakistan and India at least HISTORICALLY used to have pretty poor rates of vaccination in their rural areas.” Where on earth is the relevance to ethyl mercury, Celivia?

These assertions are becoming sillier by the minute when the incidence of autism was 1 in 10000 before the 70s Celivia. What is the point you make? Show me the "money"......please!

“LOL, the autism rate even slightly increased when the Japanese children were not vaccinated!”

Lol, Celivia. Co-author of the Japanese study was Professor Rutter who was a former Deputy Chairman of the Wellcome Trust - the drug manufacturer, Glaxo. He’s one of the expert witnesses for Glaxo in the MMR litigation but he failed to disclose a conflict of interest in the Honda/Rutter paper, denying MMR has any association with autism.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clifford.g.miller/hondarutter.html

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/113784.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3771429.stm

http://www.safeminds.org/pressroom/press_releases/2005-03-07-Los-Angeles-Times-Merck-Misled-on-Vaccines.pdf

http://medicine-no.com/DrugPromotion.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1583475/BBC-psychiatrist-Tonmoy-Sharma-is-struck-off.html

The grave derelictions of responsibility by drug companies and secretive, government institutions is an international disgrace.

Faith in the medical establishment has crumbled also because good men see but say nothing while potential victims continue to be used as cannon fodder!

CL,
I’m not claiming that there are never any side effects. Most drugs do have side effects. Vaccination is very safe because the risk and side effects are so few.
All I am saying is that it’s dangerous to encourage parents not to vaccinate their children.

Dickie,
“Since you cannot provide any evidence to support the foolish Warthaug’s claims…“ What foolish claims?

“What facts Celivia?”
The facts are that ALL of the studies have so far found no link between autism and thimerosal. If you know of any large-scale studies that prove a link between the two, I’m sure that medical scientists would be interested to hear about it.

About the Amish, you’re still missing the point. The point is that the anti-vaxers claim that autism doesn’t occur there. All that Warthaug is saying that this claim is false. And he is correct, even according to the article you linked to.

Cancer and radiation discussions are off-topic and irrelevant.

“Where on earth is the relevance to ethyl mercury, Celivia?”
It is relevant because you claim that Warthaug was wrong about vaccination rates in these countries. I corrected you by telling you that Warthaug is talking about historical rates, not today’s rates. Autism occurs at the same rates everywhere whether the population had been vaccinated or not.

“The grave derelictions of responsibility by drug companies and secretive, government institutions is an international disgrace.”
While drug companies are not perfect, and I also have my criticism, the big picture is that our overall life span increase is partly due to the drugs and treatments that are available to us. What was the life span like in the days we had to resort to quackery like homeopathy?

Would you like to go back to pre-antibiotic and pre-vaccination times?
I don't.
Many people would not be alive today if it weren’t for antibiotics and medical science.

I think we all have to consider that our life spans are longer and disease has decreased in our countries for far greater reasons that drugs. Measles was already 95% irradicated from America prior to the vaccine (because of our diet, moving into more rural areas and our water and sanitation improved). Interestingly enough, it seems that diseases that we did not develop vaccines for, dropped at the same time at the same rate.
and we also must consider the fact that chronic diseases are the problem now and many feel it is because of our horrible immune systems. A Manitoba study clearly shows that simply by delaying the DTaP for four months drops the asthma rate by 54%. How many kids die each year from asthma related death? I know here in America it's over 6000! Would that many children die from diptheria in a year minus the vax?
And celevia, how does any pro vaccine person explain Chicago Home First Clinics? Almost 100% of their kids are 100% fully un vaccinated IN CHICAGO, not some Amish farm, and they're healthier than any of their vaccinated peers.a rate of 1-100 autistic in the U.S. (conservative est.) , 35,000 kids at CHF and 2 autistic children, all vaccinated prior to becoming patients!

Dickie,
You said, “the incidence of autism was 1 in 10000 before the 70s Celivia. What is the point you make?”
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119934905/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
“There was a marked difference in prevalence rates between those studies that included some children born before 1970 (low rates) and those that included only children born in 1970 and after (high rates). This is probably due to the lower rates obtained by use of criteria strictly based on Kanner's description of his syndrome.”
FYI, this means that autism was just far more common then we realized in the past. But since the 70s we developed better tools and criteria for diagnosing autism. Before the 70s doctors were not very apt at diagnosing autism because they didn’t have these criteria at hand.
Children, who are not OBVIOUSLY autistic, would today be diagnosed as autistic because they fall within the strict criteria. Before these criteria were introduced, these children would be called retarded, eccentric, introvert, or any other description.

DL,
You said, “disease has decreased in our countries for far greater reasons that drugs”
I said that, “our overall life span increase is partly due to the drugs and treatments” The key word is PARTLY. I never claimed that there were no other reasons responsible for our increased life span.

That measles were already declining is nonsense. While it’s true that childhood disease rates have declined because of hygiene, diet etc, childhood diseases have always increased and decreased cyclically.

If you want to stop vaccination, then help eradicate the disease first, not slow it down. We now do not need a vaccine against smallpox because thanks to worldwide vaccination the disease has been eradicated. Global eradication of Polio is near, according to WHO. That means we can soon stop vaccinating against Polio, too.

We need global eradication of other childhood diseases as well especially the killers like measles. Eradication is impossible if we have anti-vax nutters refusing vaccination and slowing down eradication, especially medical staff.

That’s why I maintain that medical staff should be vaccinated if they do not already have immunity against these particular diseases.

C L Sr <<argonomist...sorry but your argument is idiocy. inorganic mercury does not leave the body sooner than organic mercury. to suggest so in this argument is ridiculous. the science is soon to come that will make your claims the ignorant rantings of idiots.>>

I was obviously correct in my first assessment of you.

As for measles, you are totally wrong. The incidence of measles did not decline prior to vaccination. Here is the data. http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/377693 The figure is here: http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/action/showFullPopup?doi=10.1086%2F377693&id=fg1

The first measles vaccine was introduced in 1963. Another version http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm

I remember as a child almost everyone at school got measles. My father remembers school friends of his dying of diphtheria. Back then there were 13,000 to 15,000 deaths a year from diphtheria in the US. http://www.hhs.gov/nvpo/factsheets/fs_tableI_doc3.htm

That is how short a time since these diseases were dangerous.

dickie, Celivia is right. The changing definition of autism and autism spectrum disorders has had a major impact on the apparent rise in autism in the western world. http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=364&a=2618

argonomist, Mortality rates had of course dropped prior to the vaccine as well. When considering monetary costs due to measles (as the article you linked me to stated), nobody is paying attention to the monetary cost of the 1-100 kids with autism. Or the gastrointestinal difficulties that are chronic in our children.
I think that those of us whose families have been adversely affected by the vaccines have every right in the world to have no faith in the programs. The theory behind vaccines are a wonderful idea and I would support a safe vaccine program, but ignoring the very real problems that are inherant in the system are what is causing "anti-vacciners" like myself to come to these conclusions. And people that deny these very real consequences are the reason that the American peole have no faith in the system.
It really says something when your own health care professional refuse the most basic health care intervention. Just like when Bush ordered those hundreds of millions of dollars worth of small pox vaccine after 9-11 and ordered medical personnel to begin taking it. Then there was nothing mentioned about it because the doctors were refusing the vaccine! something must be amiss, don't you think?
as far as the diagnostic protocol for autism, you have a point but it definately couldnt be the only reason. you'll see in another 20 years when all of the autistic children have nowhere to go and we have no tax dollars to take care of them.

C L Sr, Wanting to change the goalposts again? Your statement was <<Measles was already 95% irradicated [sic] from America prior to the vaccine>>. This statement was patently untrue as I have shown. Likewise, many of your other statements. The fact that you want to make patently untrue statements in support of your position shows how flimsy it is.

Deaths from measles, as from many other diseases, declined prior to vaccination introductions because of better medical care from evidence-based medical advances. However, people still got measles and still died or had serious complications from it. The benefits of vaccination for many diseases far outweigh the costs.

People are paying attention to autism-spectrum disorders. There is a very large amount of research in the area. However, it is a simple fact that there is no good evidence autism spectrum disorders are caused by vaccination and plenty of good evidence that they have genetic causes. http://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/16621.full http://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/16834.full http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v14/n6/abs/5201610a.html http://www.springerlink.com/content/c1074v4113q53rw0/ http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/520013?rss http://www.ikhebeenvraag.be/mediastorage/FSDocument/52/Freitag-2.pdf http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S0002929707633655 http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S000292970763019

argonomist, the simple fact is that severe adverse reactions from vaccines are very real and far more common than you think. The mortality rate is what dropped (so I miss spoke) but given this, you would have to at least admit that medicine has advanced to the point that measles and many other childhood illnesses can be better treated without the need for these vaccines. If the mortality rate was so low prior to the vaccine being instituted, than your precious science based medicine has done nothing but gotten better since than, so why not treat the disease and allow these kids the natural immunity that comes from the actual disease as opposed to the vaccines that are most definately the cause of serious chronic illness. Asthma is at the very least, a by product of vaccinations and more children die from the complications from asthma the measles. Let's treat the kids and get them better..rather than destroying their immune systems with these vaccines.
There are far too many studies suggesting a correlation between the vaccines and chronic illness... Dr. Bernadine Healy is someone that I would trust in her judgemnet far more than you. The D.O.D. is also suggesting that their protocol to vaccinate our US Soldiers is based upon pediatric evidence and should be studied due to the severe adverse reactions that are happening in our oldiers..now, if our young, healthy soldiers are being affected, don't you think that we should be looking into the practice regarding our children?
Ultimately, this is about these kids...and if the goal posts have to be moved...so be it. I don't profess to know everything about the issue, I DO KNOW THAT WE ARE DAMAGING OUR CHILDREN AND I'M SICK AND TIRED OF IDIOTS THAT REFUSE TO SEE THE EVIDENCE THAT IS THERE. AS USUAL, IT TURNS INTO PERSONAL ATTACKS INSTEAD OF THE EVIDENCE. YOU REFERENCED THE DENMARK STUDY...THAT'S MOVING THE GOAL POSTS AS WELL. EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT INCREDIBLY FLAWED JUNK SCIENCE THAT WAS!

CL,
“Just like when Bush ordered…”
Who cares what Bush ordered- what would he know about NNH and vaccines?
Unlike Obama, he’s hardly someone who embraces science.

” Dr. Bernadine Healy is someone that I would trust in her judgemnet”
I bet! Anyone with a lack of education would blindly believe what she says. But what would Healy know; it’s obvious that she’s not an immunologist or paediatrician or vaccine specialist.
Why do you rely on information of people who have faith in pseudo-science and are as far away from the field of immunology as possible, while ignoring the advice of experts?

Oh I know why- you base your beliefs about health on faith.

There is no evidence that asthma and autism are caused by vaccines. http://www.news-medical.net/?id=251

Measles outbreaks are on the rise in the USA thanks to pseudo-science propaganda:
Measles Outbreaks Worry CDC
Surge in Measles Cases Blamed on Parents Who Won't Vaccinate Kids
http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20080821/measles-outbreaks-worry-cdc
“it will take 95% vaccine coverage to keep measles from re-establishing itself in the U.S. In the U.K. fears that the measles vaccine might be linked to autism dropped vaccination coverage there to 80% to 85% of the population.
Very high coverage rates are necessary because measles is one of the most contagious diseases known to man.
Uncomplicated measles is a serious illness, but some kids who get the illness come down with life-threatening encephalitis or pneumonia. In the years before vaccination became common, a few children each year developed a very rare measles complication called subacute sclerotic panencephalitis -- a degenerative brain disease that is almost always fatal but which can take up to 10 years to kill.”

“the American peole have no faith in the system”
I know! And the whole world laughs at you. This is what faith has done to Americans’ brains- they believe anything as long as it is not backed up by science.

20% Of Americans don’t even know something very basic, e.g. that the earth revolves around the sun. http://www.8bm.com/diatribes/volume02/034/708.htm

Agronomist

The link you provided (http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=364&a=2618) advised in the last paragraph, the following:

“As things are, the only conclusion is that we do not know if the prevalence of autistic spectrum disorders or of one or more sub-groups has risen or is still rising.

"There is evidence both for and against. Nor do we know if there are differences in rates or changes in rates in different parts of the world. We have no idea of the prevalence, past or present, in developing countries.”

…“ What foolish claims?” - (Celivia.)

Warthaug’s graph for “developing countries,” Celivia? In view of the statement above, may I reiterate that Warthaug’s a fake?

“On ethyl mercury quite a bit is known about its toxicology and behaviour.” Agronomist – please desist from misleading posters.

Ethyl mercury has a longer half-life and demethylizes – it’s converted into inorganic mercury in the brain – that much is known only. Offered in the very link you provided earlier:

“A higher percentage of the total Hg in the brain was in the form of inorganic Hg for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys (34% vs. 7%).

"Knowledge of the toxicokinetics and developmental toxicity of thimerosal is needed to afford a meaningful assessment of the developmental effects of thimerosal-containing vaccines.

"The mechanisms by which organic mercury is converted to inorganic mercury in the brain are unknown.

"There is not a consensus as to whether inorganic mercury in brain causes damage or to what extent compared to organic mercury.”

“The proportion of brain mercury that was inorganic was higher in animals exposed to thimerosal compared with methyl mercury.”

The information above makes the “consensus” on Thimerosal, which you and Celivia support, look a wee bit shaky Agronomist!

In addition, the very latest findings, by an international team of geneticists, is also intriguing:

"At the moment, we understand the genetic causes of 15 to 20 percent of autism; the remaining 80 percent remain unexplained."

Therefore, the cause of at least 80 percent of autism is not yet understood so what is your hypothesis (in keeping with your "consenus" of course) Agronomist and Celivia?

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/114642.php

C L Sr, I have repeatedly stated on this thread that there are adverse reactions to vaccines, but I believe the evidence supports that the benefits of vaccination for many diseases far outweigh the risks. If you provide me with evidence from the medical literature that the opposite is the case, I will happily revise my views.

Mortality is not the only damaging effect of diseases. The fact that we can treat some diseases does not stop those diseases significantly reducing the quality of life for those who suffer from them. Prevention is always better than cure. One effect of measles on boys is brain damage. One effect of Rubella in young women is birth defects. If there were a HIV vaccine available, I would advocate its deployment. Through antiviral and other drugs we can keep people with AIDS alive, but their quality of life is much less.

The other problem are vulnerable people in society who will be severely damaged by these diseases and can’t be vaccinated – children with leukaemia for example. They rely on herd immunity for protection. Allowing every child to get the diseases naturally would mean these children would get it too. Don’t forget that smallpox was once a childhood disease. Vaccination and other medical approaches allowed its eradication.

dickie, the fact that an assessment leads to a conclusion that it is not known whether the prevalence of autism is increasing is fairly good evidence that the prevalence has not increased dramatically. Otherwise, it would be obvious that the prevalence had increased. Any real increase that may have occurred must be small.

Heritability studies of autism routinely identify large heritability components. High heritability means that genetic factors contribute most to the disease. A few genes have been identified that appear to contribute to autism. Heritability studies identify the contribution of genetics without having to know anything about the genes involved.

dickie, only the last one of those quotes came from the documents I linked to. Who is misleading posters now

argonomist, the evidence is everywhere! These toxins are damaging kids (from the vaccines). The evidence is in tests done on the effect of Thimerosal on brain tissue, the measles virus in my sons gut, the herpes virus from the chicken pox vaccine in my sons spinal fluid. The evidence is the children that have recovered thru detox. Jon Polings papers that were presented at the autism omnibus hearings. I don't blindly trust the studies from people that benefit from the vaccine protocol. Far too many docs have clearly stated that the debate isn't over.
As far as the links that you provided me, I have no problem believing that autism is triggered by genetics. I believe my son was genetically suceptable to the toxins in the vaccines. As the toxins have increased (with the vaccine schedule increase), mmore children that may have been less effected by the lower number of vaccines are now being severly effected. One thing that docs have said is that the increase in diagnosis is because kids that would've been diagnosed with schizophrenia before are now given an ASD dx, unfortnately, these diagnosis' are also on the rise!
given the papers that you linked me to, I would say that this is all the more reason to reconsider our one-size-fits-all vaccination policies that pharma and the medical associations push with no regard to the individual child.
chack out the newest MedCo study, Jon Polings papers, National Vaccine HealthCare website papers from the D.O.D. etc. Please keep an open mind. too many kids die from asthma every year...we can drastically reduce this with smarter vaccination policies and until these people start realizing this..I will advocate parents not vaccinate their children.

Agronomist

Again I request that you refrain from misleading posters. I've concluded that you are merely on this thread to win an argument at all costs or rather to ridicule those who oppose your assertions. All the quotes I attributed to you are from the links you provided.

Clearly you are dumping information on this thread without reading the contents.

Perhaps one could overlook your original sloppiness and denials, but twice? No!:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16973445
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/thimerosal.htm

How one could place such blind faith in our regulatory systems defies imagination. I could write a whole book on the health and environmental catastrophes which have occurred just this century in my own state where these departments have been responsible for placing adults and children at grave risk, even culminating in deaths and/or exposure to hazardous chemicals.

Of course our much maligned whistle blowers in the US would ruefully remind us that paramount to the culture in these regulatory agencies is “the economy stoopid!” These agencies are adept at gagging worn out and/or sick appellants – most eventually giving up, exhausted and unable to find the resources or stamina to fight a corrupt bureaucracy.

Australia has one of the highest rates of asthma in the world. Some 14 to 16 percent of children and 12 percent of adults suffer from asthma. But then of course, Australia remains the greatest pollutant emitter per capita on the planet.

In 2006, the Barrack/Newmont mine in the Eastern Goldfields of West Australia dumped nearly 8 tonnes of mercury on the men, women and children of Kalgoorlie and nearly 7 tonnes in 2005. What was dumped prior to this exercise in public relations, by the Department of Environment, no-one knows and no health agency has expressed any concern over the bioaccumulative and teratogenic impacts of mercury on human life.

Similar to Australia, American agencies (also sycophants to the big end of town,) when challenged, continue on with “business as usual,” and despite submissions by concerned, eminent experts, assure citizens that it's OK to include mercury, formaldehyde and aluminium in vaccines and medications:

http://www.autismboulder.org/pdf/ScienceSummary.pdf

contd…..

Dickie and CL,
There is no scientific link between asthma and vaccines or between autism and vaccines.
However, there is clear evidence that respiratory infections, such as the flu, are one of the major triggers of asthma. So it makes sense to think that an asthmatic child would be benefit from flu vaccination.

Like Agronomist, I am willing to change my mind about links between vaccines and asthma/autism, but I would have to be convinced by scientific evidence by scientists who work in the field, e.g. immunology. CL keeps saying that such evidence exists, but really, all that the antivaccinationists have come up with is anecdotal ‘evidence’, the propaganda by non-scientists such as politicians, radio show hosts and celebrities who might be great for publicity but who have no idea what they are talking about.

The whole vaccination controversy ‘argument’ is based on the premise that thimerosal in vaccines increases autism rates. There is no evidence for that, and that’s why the consensus is that thimerosal does not increase autism rates. This debate is getting a bit tedious. The thimerosal hypothesis has failed- face it!
The NNH makes vaccines one of the safest prevention treatments we have available.

If CL would look at the autism rates in his own country, he would understand that since 2002 when thimerosal was removed from USA childhood vaccines there should have been a drop in autism rates according to this premise.
Yet, this has not happened, and therefore the whole controversial hypothesis makes no sense.

Now anti-vaxers are grasping at straws by claiming that toxins in vaccines generally cause autism.
I wonder whether anti-vaxers realise that they’re wasting scientists’ precious time and money.
Time after time again scientists have debunked this unsubstantial claim. Do you really need it debunked again?
Don’t you rather see scientists spend funds on investigating and finding the real causes of autism?

argonomist, once again you show me that you have no idea what you are talking about. In your defense, I must say...it's simply your blind belief in everything that "scientists" say. For your info, Thimerosal has not been removed from the vaccines. In fact, I have the Mercury free vaccine act exemption forms for the last three years that the Illinois Dept of Public Health has filed every december to to request the use of Thimerosal containing vaccines due to the inability of the Thimerosal free versions. The language basically states that they are unable to get the Thimerosal free vaccines from the manufacturers and they list 7 vaccines that still contain Thimerosal. Many are TCV's and some have trace amounts, that aside, when given five at a time, at what point do trace amounts add up? The manufacturers are also pushing the TC flu vaccine now that they say that the Thimerosal has been removed from the other vaccines ,amazingly the same year, disingenuous to say the least?
I am not one of those that believe that Mercury is the only cause of autism, I think that the media has perpetuated that concept, (due primarily to David Kirby's phenominaly selling book). I think that all of the toxins and virus' in the vaccines, as well as the hyper immune response that these vaccines create are a factor.
Please get your facts straight before you assume Thimerosal has been removed simply because your precious scientists say so. There's truly nothing that infuriates me more than this lie.

C L Sr, if the evidence is everywhere, you should be able to point to the studies in the medical literature showing it. Or even better, a meta-analysis from the Cochrane collaboration. But you havn’t. What you provide is anecdotal evidence of measles virus in your child’s gut. The association of this with autism has been discarded http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003140 . I am sorry, but unlike you I cannot accept cause and effect without evidence.

I also think you have my comments about thimerosal in vaccines wrong. I was stating that thimerosal had been removed from childhood vaccines in Australia (there is one exception). That should have no impact on what you do with the Illinois Dept. of Public Health. I even linked to the document where this was stated and dickie corrected my first loose statement on it. So I rather think I do have the facts straight.

dickie, are you being disingenuous? You have provided two links that I did not point to. I am interested in your reference to Kalgoorlie. If so much mercury is being dumped on every one (I make that 15 tonnes per head over 2 years if I read your post correctly, but I dare say I didn’t) it would far outweigh what people get in vaccines. Is there a major difference in autism frequency in Kalgoorlie compared with the rest of Australia? If not, why not?

actually argonomist...I did read your post correctly. You stated that I should look at my own country, and that since thimerosal has been removed since 2002 (disingenuous to say the least), the autism rates should have dropped as well. and I offered the proof regarding the thimerosal content in Illinois (which I believe is still a part of the U.S.).
The measles vaccine/ autism connection controvercy is far from over as well. please allow Dr. Wakefield to have his day in court before you hang him. as I have said over and over, he will be vindicated.
perhaps here in the U.S. we are finally going to get some meaningful research that will not be as scewed as the studies that you like to reference (i.e. the Denmark study).
thru the Combating Autism Act 2006, the U.S. Government has just set aside $6,000,000 dollars for the study regarding the vaccine/ autism connection and another $10,000,000 for studying other environmental factors. Perhaps some truth will finally come out. I can only hope. At least we have a number of independant people on the panel from autism organizations here in America that will try to keep them honest and hopefully keep the pharmaceutical industry out of the study.

CL,
I think you are a little confused (again) because AGRonomist didn’t make the points about the USA- I did.

Anyway, I'm willing to say that I may have it wrong about the remova of thimerosal in the US; the info that I’ve come across about the USA’s vaccinations said that the thimerosal-free ones are reserved for pregnant women, babies and children, including flu vaccines. Perhaps that info was wrong?
And does it depend on the state/jurisdiction you live?
I'm in Australia so I have to rely on sites for info.

But even if that’s the case, according to the info from Warthaug’s sites and comments which I linked to in a previous post, there have been:

“1) 12 studies
2) ~1.2 million children analysed
3) different methadologies used in each study
4) different analysis used in each study
5) all 12 studies came to the same conclusion
Pretty hard to just assume its all error. Not to mention that some of those studies (like the fombonne study) were conducted by some of the most distinguished epidemeologists out there.

Yet another study has been done looking at mercury exposure and general markers of neurological disorders (this spans more then just autism). And once again, no link found.”

What do you think about the Japanese study in particular, where children were not vaccinated for years, yet it didn’t alter the autism rate?
Japan MMR Paper: No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15877763&ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Do you know when Wakefield is going to court?