Warning - left wing loonie madman psychiatric rant follows. (As an aside questioning someone's psychiatric state because they disagreed with you was who Stalin incarcerated quite a few people.)

Some posters are keen to honour the bravery of our soldiers fighting against "the enemy"(who always happened to be "enemies" of one of the great powers and often in a fight between competing imperialisms.)

If we are so keen to do that, why don't those posters and the rest of the right wing propose an annual day of celebration for aboriginal freedom fighters who fought and died bravely defending their land and people from the white Anglo colonialist invaders?

Something equivalent to Anzac day but remembering the brave resistance fighters.

Fat chance, because what Anzac day celebrates is one view of history, a view that wants to have aggressive nationalism with its myths of bravery and fighting for freedom obliterate the idea and reality of class. It wants to honour particular wars and make those kind of aggressive imperialist wars acceptable to future generations. Otherwise why all this concentration on kids attending or at least seeing the solemnity and the other stuff? It wants to reinforce the idea it is OK for Australians to invade other countries with our major imperialist friends as a way of protecting our own imperialist adventures in the area.

The ruling elite took the concept of remembering and honouring a particular group of war dead (and they still profess to do that) and shrouded it in patriotism and various myths about freedom and bravery to enable their power to continue then, now and into the future. just as they need a whole propaganda machine around the family (and often associated with homophobia and keeping women int eh home) they also need a whole propaganda machine to convince large swathes of workers to don uniforms, invade other countries and kill the inhabitants.

My question about a day for remembering Aboriginal resistance is still valid because there we would be remembering those fighting against the elite, not for it.

Hi there...** GINX & PAUL.L **

You're both so right...

Some of those correspondents herein, who EXPOUND the loudest, SERMONIZE the most, and PONTIFICATE habitually and, who regularly proclaim their odious LEFTIST views (usually on such a solomn and significant occasion as ANZAC day) have never worn a uniform whatsoever.

Yet they have the temerity to moralise and philosophize on the merits or otherwise,of Australia's involvement in the various conflicts abroad.

Most have never worn 'greens'. Or tried to keep dry in dense jungle during a Monsoon. Really sweating on a 'dust off' for a critically injured mate ? And waiting for an 'extraction' that's already overdue, having spent fourteen days or so, outside the wire (with a magnificent view of the Long Hai Hills, if you're lucky); then there's this other bloke who stupidly burnt his hand trying to change a barrel on the sections' M60 GPMG, after a bloody inconvenient 'cook off'!

Yeah, I'll leave all the philosophical experts to 'moralise' on Australia's involvement in past; present and the future.

Gotta say though, I'd much rather have a few drinks with a pommy, yank, kiwi or aussie 'grunt' then have one with an intellectual and cerebral 'leftie' academic ! At least with the grunt, what you see is what you get !

o sung woh.

You're right. I have never worn a uniform, and was going to be a conscious objector against one of the wars you sign the praises of, a war in which more than 2 million mostly Vietnamese died.

I don't have to wear a uniform to discuss why war occurs. Only defence forces can talk about it? Presumably only teachers can talk about education policy and only nurses and doctors about health policy. And it does seem to contradict the main idea offered for supporting Anzac day, namely that our soldiers were (and are) fighting for freedom at home - while at the same time denying that freedom (including the freedom to live)in my humble opinion - to millions around the world.

In fact this sort of silly comment and the usual discussion about how tough war is for those who do it ignores the basic question. Why is there war, and why are we involved in them as aggressors? And by ignoring this basic question (which is what our masters want), and by raising its celebration to some mythical status, it supports war, the war waged around the world for profit by the major terrorists sitting in Washington and London and Canberra.

Oh for crying out loud. As if there aren't enough threads on left wing politics versus right wing.

To those of you who are just taking the opportunity to slam 'lefties' or 'righties' here, I say, grow up. Honestly. It really does sound like a petulant, childish little whinge. Yes, I'm talking to you, mickijo and o sung wu.
Who judges who is a 'lefty' and who is worthy to discuss such matters? Unless you were in the trenches, I'd say you're just as ignorant as those you condemn.

On the ANZAC day -

Izzo makes a good point insofar as it's about remembering the fallen. Yeah, okay, some of the celebratory aspects aren't as solemn as perhaps they should be, but I guess having come together for dawn services, it is a social occasion like any other.

I've taken part in a few dawn ceremonies and the attitude of remembrance is still there. Mr Holden's piece argues that the day should be replaced by something less jingoistic and more focused on the horror of war, but I'd say that focus still exists, and regardless of what you do it's still going to become a social occasion, and I don't think we should necessarily fight against that. It's what brings people out, and it's what makes these remembrance ceremonies endure - we're seeing record crowds.

With that being said, as other posters have mentioned, it could be used to market the concept of war and joining the military... but I don't see a great deal of that, save for a degree of glorification of combat - but really, if people aren't able to see through that and exercise a degree of common sense, then they'll be suckered in by defence advertisements anyway.

Paul L.

I am fully aware that the word "teenager" only came into being post WW2. However, like many words and phrases which did not exist pre-1914-18 ( conchie, friendly fire, ethnic cleansing) it is part of our vocabulary to-day, used to denote states which DID exist at the time. In this case the state of being between the ages of 13 and 20. My point - which I thought I had made clear - was to highlight the fact that those to whom we refer, in abstract, as "men" were in fact still under the age of 21. A fact which a walk through a war graveyard easily confirms; and which pertains to most wars.

As to these kids being "more mature"? I consider that statement somewhat facile. Most of them, if unmarried, were still virgins, lived at home, had never driven a car...their entire adulthood was still ahead of them. And most of them never got to experience it.

Who am I to judge them? Oh, for goodness sake, man! My whole point lies not in judging them but in condemning the fat-cats, civilians and propagandists who used them to their own ends.

I am the mother of two sons. I spent a large chunk of my life living in a war zone. I have been to far too many funerals and remembrance services (that was when they couldn't find enough bits of the boy to scrape them up and bury them) and have dealt with far too many young guys in psychiatric wards to find war honourable. I have also been the friend, lover, teacher and comforter of far too many civilians maimed, raped, killed and driven insane by war to ever think we should gloss it over with sentimentality

The author should be commended for pointing out the bleeding obvious.
The invasion at Anzac cove was a monumental failure, with the most remarkable thing about it being the relative success of our withdrawal.

Anzac day used to consist of marches and solemn memorials but over the past decade has morphed into a forum for grandstanding and overt displays of shallow nationalism. We don't have a lot of history to celebrate; this particular incident has been commandeered by culture warriors.

As I overheard someone say last year..."Happy Anzac Day!"