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The Forum > Article Comments > It is time Anzac Day was replaced > Comments

It is time Anzac Day was replaced : Comments

By Brian Holden, published 24/4/2008

Anzac day is a day of delusion: we have created a day of celebration of nationhood when we need a day of recognition that war is nothing but the ultimate human failure.

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Dear o sung wu,

You wrote:

"In the military one does what one's told - absolutely!"

In the war crimes trials in Nuremberg at the end of WW2 it was not considered an excuse for those who committed atrocities to say that they were only following orders. Soldiers are not robots. I was in WW2. I was never asked to do anything that seemed wrong. I don't know that I would have had the courage to refuse to follow orders in that case. I know there are cases where one should not follow orders even though one may suffer greatly for it..
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 5:18:48 AM
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Steel,

Is that the best you can do? Bring up an old subject that's already been dealt with? I acknowledged that I made an error and apologised, immediately. This seems to be something you are entirely incapable of.

You say >>”All your examples there were during war time, not during peacetime, as the executions of communists ... were.”

Just for starters, the execution of prisoners is never OK. To suggest, that because it was during wartime makes it different, is reprehensible and undermines your whole argument. Secondly I wonder when YOU think the Vietnam War started. Four hundred government officials were assassinated in 1957 alone, and the violence gradually increased. While the terror was originally aimed at local government officials, it soon broadened to include other symbols of the status-quo, such as schoolteachers, health workers, and agricultural officials. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War.

So your statement above, that the executions of communists were during peacetime, is flat out WRONG. Communists were executed both before the war and during the war.

In North-Vietnam the Viet-Minh engaged in agrarian reform in which the mass killing of perceived “class enemies” occurred.

1) Irrelevant
2) I don’t agree at all. Executing the opposition is what the Viet Cong were about.
3) You can’t see the relevance to the fact that the North was never interested in representing the people?
4) The cancellation is a fact. Whether it was a violation of sovereignty is eminently disputable.

DavidF,

Soldiers are required to follow all legal orders. An order to kill a prisoner is not a legal order. It seems to me that O’Sung Wu was pointing out that soldiers don’t get to chose whether to go to war. They go where the Gov’t orders them. I don’t believe that veterans of WW2 have any place criticizing those who fought in Vietnam.

O Sung Wu,

I too encourage you to tell your story. For me courage is not being unafraid, it is setting aside fear and doing what must be done. I think Vietnam vets are fully entitled to feel as proud of their service as any other group of veterans.
Posted by Paul.L, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 9:35:26 AM
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Paul L wrote:

"Soldiers are required to follow all legal orders. An order to kill a prisoner is not a legal order. It seems to me that O’Sung Wu was pointing out that soldiers don’t get to chose whether to go to war. They go where the Gov’t orders them. I don’t believe that veterans of WW2 have any place criticizing those who fought in Vietnam."

I did not criticise those who fought in Vietnam. I disagreed with o sung wu's statement that seemed to me to say that a soldier must follow all orders without question. That is not true in WW2, Vietnam or any place else. His statement did not make any distinction as to whether the orders were legal or not. I think anybody has a right to criticise anything they think is wrong. It is part of democratic society that nobody is above criticism. I didn't criticise those who fought in Vietnam, but I have a right to do so where I think they are wrong.
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 10:22:26 AM
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DAVID F...

You say you served in WW2. You also stated inter alia, that you were not asked to 'do something' that was wrong. Further, if you were so asked to do something that was wrong, you would not know what to do, as you're very much aware of the most serious consequence of disobeying a lawful command ? Or, similar words to that effect -

DAVID F., I must admit you really worry me ! As a WW2 Veteran, you simply don't talk the talk or walk the walk ?

Further, I have no idea in what corps, unit or ship you served.

However, I can tell you the Army in which I served, we did as we were ordered ! Unless of course, it was an unlawful command ! I can assure you quite categorically there were VERY VERY few UNLAWFULLY COMMANDS issued in my time (2 x tours).

Mate I gotta say, I'd hate to have you as a member in my platoon too, during a 'hot contact' ! Whilst you carefully pondered upon the order that you were given, was in fact lawful!!

If you were to postulate or pontificate this rather peculiar and curious view of yours, at the local RSL and within the earshot of a group of Vietnam Vets. I reckon you'd be soon drinking on your own !

As I said - you really worry me, particular as you're a WW2 Veteran ?
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 5:08:51 PM
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o sung wu

"DAVID F., I must admit you really worry me ! As a WW2 Veteran, you simply don't talk the talk or walk the walk ? .... If you were to postulate or pontificate this rather peculiar and curious view of yours, at the local RSL and within the earshot of a group of Vietnam Vets. I reckon you'd be soon drinking on your own !"

David's comments might worry you but they impress me. I know you will dismiss my view as of no consequence, but as one of the citizens whose taxes help pay for this country's not inconsiderable military expenditure I would find it far more reassuring to know our defence forces comprised thinking and compassionate people like David as opposed to those who in your words "talk the talk and walk the walk". These comments of yours are very telling and only serve to further reinforce my reservations about the way war is being celebrated in this country today.

I respect your Vietnam service, particularly if you were conscripted and had no choice in it, and I am very sorry to hear of your ongoing suffering as a result of that service. But I find it quite outrageous that you could query the legitimacy of David's service the way you have and misconstrue his refreshingly honest and perfectly fair and reasonable comments on the basis that they don't quite fit the RSL boy's club prescription of how returned service people should think and behave.
Posted by Bronwyn, Thursday, 8 May 2008 12:24:45 AM
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Time to start your own thread on your particular points of view. Let the diggers rest in peace on this thread.
Posted by TammyJo, Thursday, 8 May 2008 8:55:36 AM
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